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Sam Bradford/Tom Savage

Shishkabob said:
yes because us on this board are making the team decisions lol

Ive never not advocated us drafting a QB early, however i know we will not be getting 1 of the top 2 in Goff or Wentz, so after that you are stuck with Lynch(who i dont like), Cook, Hackenberg, etc.
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Which brings up a good point.

For all the "No QB drafted after the 3rd round has succeeded since Brady." guys... do you draft one of these three, Lynch, Cook, Hackenberg in the first because the other two are gone, or do you do what you have to do to make sure you get Goff or Wentz?
 
thunderkyss said:
Which brings up a good point.

For all the "No QB drafted after the 3rd round has succeeded since Brady." guys... do you draft one of these three, Lynch, Cook, Hackenberg in the first because the other two are gone, or do you do what you have to do to make sure you get Goff or Wentz?
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The latter.
 
infantrycak said:
My mom just hit me for reading that.



We're talking QB. This isn't a next season deal. This is a next decade issue.
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which is why i agree you draft a qb, but if Savage is clearly the best QB in camp do you start the rookie, because he was drafted higher?
 
infantrycak said:
My mom just hit me for reading that.



We're talking QB. This isn't a next season deal. This is a next decade issue.
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The $64,000 question is will it be a decade of Manning or a decade going through the likes of Brady Quinn, JaMarcus Russell, Tim Couch, Akili Smith etc.
The better odds are on the latter, unfortunately.
 
thunderkyss said:
Which brings up a good point.

For all the "No QB drafted after the 3rd round has succeeded since Brady." guys... do you draft one of these three, Lynch, Cook, Hackenberg in the first because the other two are gone, or do you do what you have to do to make sure you get Goff or Wentz?
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I draft Elliot and see where a strong running game and Savage/Weeden/RGIII can take the team. But that's just me.

Even though I was against it at 1.1, I still think 2014 was the best year to get the "Franchise". Even if that meant "doing whatever it took", like taking Clowney at 1.1 and trading back into the 1st to get that QB. The Texans had the top pick in every round and extra picks to boot.

Hey, maybe the Texans will get another shot at McCarron in a couple of years.:kitten:
 
DocBar said:
Where's your proof that Savage was "light years" behind Hoyer and/or Mallett?
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Is it "possible" he's a rough cut gem just waiting to be polished? I suppose so.

The eye test both in practices and in games made him look worlds behind where he needed to be. It's possible the game will slow down for him eventually, I just haven't seen it yet.

DocBar said:
I have no doubt that OB thought Savage was behind them. The distance behind is significant. My eyeball test of PS games did not show me "light years" behind. They showed me that he was neck and neck with them.
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I'd suggest an eye doctor. :D
 
infantrycak said:
Right after you provide the stats for teams doing dick and succeeding.

And can we agree on English as a common language?
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ive never claimed a team can do dick and succeed, you just claimed that the odds were better of finding a franchise qb then getting a bust. He wasnt being argumentative he was just saying the sad fact that no matter what we do the odds are we still wont have that guy.
 
disaacks3 said:
Is it "possible" he's a rough cut gem just waiting to be polished? I suppose so.

The eye test both in practices and in games made him look worlds behind where he needed to be. It's possible the game will slow down for him eventually, I just haven't seen it yet.

I'd suggest an eye doctor. :D
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You might need to take your own advice...:kitten:
 
thunderkyss said:
Which is why I want O'b fired. He gave Hoyer the starting job based off a 3 year old memory of one time in training camp.
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INSANITY!... First of all, your characterization of the Qb situation is absurd.

Moe importantly, Who would you replace him with? Organizations that dump a head coach every time they do aomething that doesnt work out:

Raiders
Browns
Dolphins
Bucs
 
dalemurphy said:
INSANITY!... First of all, your characterization of the Qb situation is absurd.

Moe importantly, Who would you replace him with? Organizations that dump a head coach every time they do aomething that doesnt work out:

Raiders
Browns
Dolphins
Bucs
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Bills, Jags, Skins, Titans, Cowboys, Cardinals, 49er's, Vikings, the list goes on.

The mantra seems to be " hire a head coach and draft a QB IN THE 1ST ROUND, wait 2-3 years, fire the head coach. Cut the QB and draft another QB IN THE 1ST ROUND, wait 2-3 years, fire the head coach" rinse and repeat. Draft position means squat other than the opportunities afforded highly picked players. If more coaches would take Carroll's position and see the obvious talent a player has, adapt his "system" to maximize that players talent and have the stones to play the guy, I bet that perceptions would change quickly and drastically.

I have to say that I'm having serious doubts about OB's ability to spot talent. He seems to value players that "practice well" and give little consideration to players that show up on game day. IMHO, I'd rather play the guy that puts up good film on game day than in practice.

If I'm going up against a guy in practice, all through OTA's, mini camp and preseason, and I can't find a way to beat him consistently, how good am I going to be going against a different opponent each week, having to do something differently? A strong theme, coming out of training camp, was how good players like Graham, Moore, Hoyer, Mallett and Blue looked in camp and how bad guys like XS and Strong looked. I think the results speak for themselves.
 
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dalemurphy said:
INSANITY!... First of all, your characterization of the Qb situation is absurd.
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That's what I said!! He should be fired for the absurdity of the situation.


dalemurphy said:
Moe importantly, Who would you replace him with? Organizations that dump a head coach every time they do aomething that doesnt work out:

Raiders
Browns
Dolphins
Bucs
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Sometimes those teams fire their HCs even if they didn't do anything wrong. Remember Hue Jackson in Oakland? Still, this is more like the straw that broke the camel's back kind of thing.
 
Marcus said:
And if none of you believe in the concept of grooming a young QB for the future, then God help any QB that they might take in the draft this year.
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Savage will be 26 at the start of next season.

Do you believe OB's plan all along was to groom savage for two years and then start him this year?

If so, why even trade for mallett? Why IR the guy instead of keeping him active just in case? Why show so faith loyalty to Hoyer?

I don't think OB had any master plans for savage or the qb position at all. How long is savage to develop? Until he's 30?

All the moves just scream that OB was just getting guys he liked and was just making decisions about them on the fly. A lot of those decisions if not all turned out to be wrong so I can definitely agree that he could have been wrong to not give savage a chance, but I think the reason was that he clearly didn't think he was as good as the other two. If he thought savage was anywhere close he keeps him off of IR.

But regarding the conversation as a whole, the Texans would be smarter to play the odds rather than bank their season on a 4th round guy who has been ir'ed every season of his NFL career. Doesn't mean get rid of savage, but they need a higher drafted player to increase their odds of finding a franchise guy.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Savage will be 26 at the start of next season.

Do you believe OB's plan all along was to groom savage for two years and then start him this year?

If so, why even trade for mallett? Why IR the guy instead of keeping him active just in case? Why show so faith loyalty to Hoyer?

I don't think OB had any master plans for savage or the qb position at all. How long is savage to develop? Until he's 30?
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First off, his age is irrelevant. Yes, I believe he's grooming Savage, but he didn't want to throw him to the wolves yet, because he didn't think he was ready. Now, if you'll recall my post history, I thought Savage should have been the starter over the other two, but look how OB used him during the preseason. 1st game, the entire 2nd half, 4th quarter in games 2 & 3, and player the entire game in 4. If that isn't grooming, I don't know what is.

Now, it's too bad he got hurt. If he hadn't, I know he would have ended up starting some games, but ifs and buts are candy and nuts. I think the reason OB shelved him for the entire season, was because in the 4th game, he still showed propensity for holding onto the ball too long. Again, not yet ready.

But Savage has already stated that wants to be the starting QB next season, and I think OB fully intends on seeing that happen. So, we'll see how it shakes out. Mostly likely will be a make or break year for both.

But whoever they might take in this years draft, don't even think about him (barring injuries) starting any games. Not with this coach.
 
Marcus said:
First off, his age is irrelevant.
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It absolutely is not. That would have been like the Browns taking Weeden and saying they are going to groom him for the future. Savage isn't quite that old, but you don't take a mid twenties prospect and have the plan be to groom them for multiple years.


Yes, I believe he's grooming Savage, but he didn't want to throw him to the wolves yet, because he didn't think he was ready. Now, if you'll recall my post history, I thought Savage should have been the starter over the other two, but look how OB used him during the preseason. 1st game, the entire 2nd half, 4th quarter in games 2 & 3, and player the entire game in 4. If that isn't grooming, I don't know what is.
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I think you're giving too much credit to OB for thinking out long term like that. I think he has just been making decisions as they come up. His first pre-season Keenum was getting a bunch of reps and he ended up cutting him. I wouldn't read too much into the last qb on the depth chart taking what is normally the last QB on the depth chart reps

Now, it's too bad he got hurt. If he hadn't, I know he would have ended up starting some games, but ifs and buts are candy and nuts. I think the reason OB shelved him for the entire season, was because in the 4th game, he still showed propensity for holding onto the ball too long. Again, not yet ready.
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He could have come back this year. He didn't have a season ending injury. They IR'ed him anyways. Which is a part of my point. Even knowing that he was going into the year with Hoyer and Mallet OB decided that waiting a few weeks for Savage to come back wasn't worth it.

But Savage has already stated that wants to be the starting QB next season, and I think OB fully intends on seeing that happen. So, we'll see how it shakes out. Mostly likely will be a make or break year for both.
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Don't care what Savage said. That's about as non-relevant as it comes. And I could not disagree more with OB fully intending to start him. I just don't believe he'd have given him no shot this year if he planned on him being the starter next year

But whoever they might take in this years draft, don't even think about him (barring injuries) starting any games. Not with this coach.
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Depends on where they take the guy. If they take a guy in the first round, I think he'll start over Savage and I expect OB to say it's a competition, but I've seen his competitions before.
 
thunderkyss said:
That's what I said!! He should be fired for the absurdity of the situation.




Sometimes those teams fire their HCs even if they didn't do anything wrong. Remember Hue Jackson in Oakland? Still, this is more like the straw that broke the camel's back kind of thing.
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Whether they "did something wrong" or not is not the issue. No firing can change the past. The issue is what will be good for the organization moving forward. Many of the posts wanting O'Brien fired seem to want it as a punishment. I don't want him punished. I want him to improve and learn from the mistakes... or, I want him replaced by a superior head coach.

As a former Kubiak defender, I made a similar argument in 2009 and 2010 when many fans wanted him to get the ax. I wanted Kubiak to be extended (not because he "deserved it, but because I thought the continuity and Kubiak's strengths outweighed any viable alternative). I still think it was the right decision... after 8 years of Kubiak and the disaster of 2013, it was clear he needed to be replaced for the good of the team. I don't think the mess at QB this season and the egg laid in the playoffs confirms that OB is a failure as a head coach nor does it confirm that he will lead the team astray moving forward.

I do think there are some communication and hierarchy issues between he and Rick Smith that need to be addressed for the good of the team. Clearly, there have been too many sloppy personnel decisions the past two seasons (not just regarding QBs). It is impossible to know who is "mostly" to blame, but I have little doubt that they both need to improve that relationship and their part in some of those decisions if Rick Smith returns as GM. Even if he does not, I am sure O'Brien needs to improve the way he communicates and cooperates with the next GM.
 
I would love nothing more than to draft a QB and groom him because it would mean that we've already got a starter in that's capable. Unfortunately, we don't have that luxury.

Regardless of what Savage has shown in pre-season, he is an unknown and it would be no different giving him the keys than it would be to give them to Mallett, who had 4 years of pre-seasons, or any of the guys in this year crop.

You can say Savage this, this year's crop of QBs that, but it doesn't mean anything because none of us know. It's all a bunch of unknowns and puts the Texans in a desperate position to get this QB thing fixed. Not seriously addressing this for 4 years now, at least, puts the Texans in a position to have to roll the dice. If that means Savage, so be it. If that means rookie thrown into the fire, that's the price you pay.

And because the Texans are in a position where they have to roll the dice, it means at least another 2 years wasted waiting for either Savage, rookie, whoever, to learn the game, and then hoping one of them does so that you're not rinsing and repeating in 2018.
 
Draft a qb in the 1st round, make the rook compete with savage in training camp but hope that savage wins job outright since he has studied system for two years. Keep hoyer for his last year on contract just to be a mentor to both savage and the rookie since neither will have any real game experience. And cross your fingers that one of the two will turn out to be the real deal!!!
 
Speedy said:
I would love nothing more than to draft a QB and groom him because it would mean that we've already got a starter in that's capable. Unfortunately, we don't have that luxury.

Regardless of what Savage has shown in pre-season, he is an unknown and it would be no different giving him the keys than it would be to give them to Mallett, who had 4 years of pre-seasons, or any of the guys in this year crop.

You can say Savage this, this year's crop of QBs that, but it doesn't mean anything because none of us know. It's all a bunch of unknowns and puts the Texans in a desperate position to get this QB thing fixed. Not seriously addressing this for 4 years now, at least, puts the Texans in a position to have to roll the dice. If that means Savage, so be it. If that means rookie thrown into the fire, that's the price you pay.

And because the Texans are in a position where they have to roll the dice, it means at least another 2 years wasted waiting for either Savage, rookie, whoever, to learn the game, and then hoping one of them does so that you're not rinsing and repeating in 2018.
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1st, I like this group of QBs that are coming out this year. I actually think it reinforces my point that you don't take a QB in the first, just because you think he can be "pretty good." Guys like Goff, Lynch, Wentz have a high probability of being better than "pretty good" where in 2014 I think maybe only Bridgewater fit in that group.

Cook. I like Cook. But he's more in that McCarron, Bortles, Carr range (using the national media rating, I already think he's special). There's a chance they can be better than "pretty good" but not as likely as the Goff, Lynch, Wentz, Bridgewater group. But we're picking at 22 now. Were we picking at 22 then, I'd have been more open to Bridgewater, Bortles, Carr. At the same time, I think the gap between those guys & a guy like Kevin Hogan isn't very big, even though Hogan may not be drafted until the 4th. It's a numbers game after the top 3.

However, the point of my post, I don't understand the urgency. Bottom line, we win 10-11 games last year with a healthy Foster. We don't lose 30-0 if we're giving Foster the ball in the red zone. We're not running the Wildcat with a groin strained Jj Watt or asking Hoyer to throw the ball from the 2 yard line with a healthy Foster.

No, Hoyer isn't winning a Super Bowl with a healthy Foster, but a young "might be special" QB might. I don't think we're waiting 2 years for our QB to develop if he has a Foster, Devonta Freeman, David Johnson, Tj Yeldon... Ezekial Elliot toting the rock.
 
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thunderkyss said:
However, the point of my post, I don't understand the urgency (of drafting a quarterback) . Bottom line, we win 10-11 games last year with a healthy Foster.
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I couldnt disagree more. Quarterback needs to be addressed yesterday. Our division is not going to be this bad for long and our deffense isnt going to be this good for long. Drafting a quarterback is a 2-3 year investment - - not the rare plug and play season of carr.

Solid running backs are far easier to find in rounds 2-7 then qbs. None of the running backs you mentioned (Foster, Devonta Freeman, David Johnson, Tj Yeldon) were drafted in the first round.
 
powda said:
I couldnt disagree more. Quarterback needs to be addressed yesterday. Our division is not going to be this bad for long and our deffense isnt going to be this good for long. Drafting a quarterback is a 2-3 year investment - - not the rare plug and play season of carr.

Solid running backs are far easier to find in rounds 2-7 then qbs. None of the running backs you mentioned (Foster, Devonta Freeman, David Johnson, Tj Yeldon) were drafted in the first round.
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The guy I was responding to was saying we need to draft a guy now, so we can do something in 2 years. I'm just saying if we have a running game with RBs like the ones mentioned, there's no reason not to expect us to do something this season. Or if we don't draft an elite prospect until next season, that could be a special season... as long as our defense holds up & we have that running game.
 
thunderkyss said:
1st, I like this group of QBs that are coming out this year. I actually think it reinforces my point that you don't take a QB in the first, just because you think he can be "pretty good." Guys like Goff, Lynch, Wentz have a high probability of being better than "pretty good" where in 2014 I think maybe only Bridgewater fit in that group.

Cook. I like Cook. But he's more in that McCarron, Bortles, Carr range (using the national media rating, I already think he's special). There's a chance they can be better than "pretty good" but not as likely as the Goff, Lynch, Wentz, Bridgewater group. But we're picking at 22 now. Were we picking at 22 then, I'd have been more open to Bridgewater, Bortles, Carr. At the same time, I think the gap between those guys & a guy like Kevin Hogan isn't very big, even though Hogan may not be drafted until the 4th. It's a numbers game after the top 3.

However, the point of my post, I don't understand the urgency. Bottom line, we win 10-11 games last year with a healthy Foster. We don't lose 30-0 if we're giving Foster the ball in the red zone. We're not running the Wildcat with a groin strained Jj Watt or asking Hoyer to throw the ball from the 2 yard line with a healthy Foster.

No, Hoyer isn't winning a Super Bowl with a healthy Foster, but a young "might be special" QB might. I don't think we're waiting 2 years for our QB to develop if he has a Foster, Devonta Freeman, David Johnson, Tj Yeldon... Ezekial Elliot toting the rock.
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Maybe Foster makes a difference, maybe he doesn't. I mean, the Texans were 1-3 with him and 8-4 without him. And he was averaging just 2.6 yards per touch.

And how many games do we win with a decent QB? That's all. Just a decent good-Schaub type QB, with or without Foster and we win 10, 11 maybe even 12 games this year.

And yeah, as I've said many times before, in any given season, if you have enough things come together, you can probably win without a half way decent QB. What I want is solving the damn issue there and being contenders every season.

I don't want to be the team where it all has to perfectly fall into place, the division has to suck, easy schedule, whatever the case may be, to have a chance. And then when it doesn't all fall into place, we yo-yo between 9, 6, 8, 2 wins every other year.

So yeah, there should be some urgency regarding QB for this team. Until they get that QB they will be a yo-yo-ing inconsistent team, needing all kinds of bounces to go their way.
 
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Speedy said:
Maybe Foster makes a difference, maybe he doesn't. I mean, the Texans were 1-3 with him and 8-4 without him. And he was averaging just 2.6 yards per touch.
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I got shot down for mentioning it the week before Foster went down, but he was clearly not quite back to game shape out there.

What is it, 3 years running he's had these injury issues now? It's hard to move on from guys like that, they give their all to the team, you have great memories of them, but in reality what are his chances of being worth his contract next season?
 
welsh texan said:
What is it, 3 years running he's had these injury issues now? It's hard to move on from guys like that, they give their all to the team, you have great memories of them, but in reality what are his chances of being worth his contract next season?
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Coming back from a torn achilles? I think the odds are none. If he ever does.
 
JB said:
I don't think they can release him or work out a settlement to the new league year when they have a bit of cap space
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I'm not sure I'm following. I don't think they plan on bringing him back next year. It's in the same vein as not planning bringing back AJ, or any other player they've released. As to exactly when, I always figured when the rules allowed for it, and cap considerations, that's all.
 
Marcus said:
I'm not sure I'm following. I don't think they plan on bringing him back next year. It's in the same vein as not planning bringing back AJ, or any other player they've released. As to exactly when, I always figured when the rules allowed for it, and cap considerations, that's all.
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Any cap hit they take goes immediately against the cap, so if they release him before the new league year and the cap is exceeded they can't do it until they get more cap space. March 9 is the start of the new league year
 
JB said:
Any cap hit they take goes immediately against the cap, so if they release him before the new league year and the cap is exceeded they can't do it until they get more cap space. March 9 is the start of the new league year
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Thanks. I didn't mean to imply that they were going to release him immediately.
 
dalemurphy said:
Whether they "did something wrong" or not is not the issue. No firing can change the past. The issue is what will be good for the organization moving forward. Many of the posts wanting O'Brien fired seem to want it as a punishment. I don't want him punished. I want him to improve and learn from the mistakes... or, I want him replaced by a superior head coach.

As a former Kubiak defender, I made a similar argument in 2009 and 2010 when many fans wanted him to get the ax. I wanted Kubiak to be extended (not because he "deserved it, but because I thought the continuity and Kubiak's strengths outweighed any viable alternative). I still think it was the right decision... after 8 years of Kubiak and the disaster of 2013, it was clear he needed to be replaced for the good of the team. I don't think the mess at QB this season and the egg laid in the playoffs confirms that OB is a failure as a head coach nor does it confirm that he will lead the team astray moving forward.

I do think there are some communication and hierarchy issues between he and Rick Smith that need to be addressed for the good of the team. Clearly, there have been too many sloppy personnel decisions the past two seasons (not just regarding QBs). It is impossible to know who is "mostly" to blame, but I have little doubt that they both need to improve that relationship and their part in some of those decisions if Rick Smith returns as GM. Even if he does not, I am sure O'Brien needs to improve the way he communicates and cooperates with the next GM.
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8 yrs of Kubiak were 5 too many. I said so after the 2009 season when posters thought Smithiak (I hate that name) were somekind of dynamic do that was going to make the Texans a dynasty. LOL

With that said if McNair is going to give Kubiak that much time he should do the same with BOB. Personally if BOB doesn't show improvement and find his longterm answer at QB then after 2 more yrs fire him.

One thing you can count on is whatever is wrong with this team if/when BOB is fired it wont be Rick Smith's fault.
 
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