2015 Heisman Trophy

[Mollywhopper]

College fans, who do you think should be voted the "outstanding college football player whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity" ... aka the Jay Berwanger Paperweight Memorial, aka the Heisman?

There's a pretty clear voting favorite headed to New York this year, but also a couple of guys who've had uniquely very good years of their own. At least good enough that I figured we could stand to have a Texans Talk vote. I also added one guy who's not officially invited to New York for the final vote, but who I think had a worthy year and who will be playing in the playoffs and is certainly conversation worthy .. and it's my list, so meh.

Aaaannddd, the candidates ...

• Derrick Henry, RB, Alabama - JR, 6'3 242

Stats - 339 carries, 1,986 yds, 5.9 ypc, 23 TDs - 10 rec, 97 yds, 9.7 ypr

• Baker Mayfield, QB, Oklahoma - JR, 6'2 214

Stats - 243/354, 68.6%, 3,389 yds, 35 TD, 5 INT, 178.9 RAT - 131 carris, 420 yds, 7 TDs

• Christian McCaffrey, RB, Stanford - SO, 6'0 201

Stats - 319 carries, 1,847 yds, 5.8 ypc, 8 TDs - 41 rec, 540 yds, 13.2 ypr, 4 TD
--------- 36 kor, 1,042 yds, 28.9 ypr, 1 TD, 14 pr, 67 yds

• Deshaun Watson, QB, Clemson - SO, 6'3 215

Stats - 287/413, 69.5%, 3,517 yds, 30 TD, 11 INT, 159.7 RAT - 163 carris, 887 yds, 11 TDs

... All that good stuff being what it is, Texans Talk, who do ya got?

 

[PapaL]

McCaffrey should win but Henry probably takes it.

*edit - I'm blind*

 

[Mollywhopper]

Surprised that McCaffrey's getting the love, and that Watson's gotten none.

 

[TexansSeminole]

I don't think most of those include the conference championship games.

I'm not sure what the award is anymore. It's been confusing over the years. The winner should probably be Mayfield based on what I understand about the criteria of the award.

Regardless, Dalvin Cook was the most effective running back this year by far and played against the most difficult run schedule of any of the top running backs this year. He also did it with injuries almost all year.

 

[Mollywhopper]

So vote for Mayfield.

PS - I agree with you completely about Cook. He's like a complete version of Chris Johnson. Home run hitter who's effective between the tackles.

 

[WolverineFan]

Cook's numbers are insane. Unfortunately his team was eliminated from the playoff race a month ago, thus eliminating him from Heisman contention (because that's a criteria for some reason nowadays).

 

[bah007]

McCaffrey is the only player in the country to lead his team in rushing and receiving. On top of that, he broke Barry Sanders' national record for total yards.

The only argument I've heard against him is lack of TDs. I cannot tell you how stupid I think that is. He still scores quite frequently, but Stanford just so happens to have a 5th year senior behind him who is a little bigger, so they give him the goal line carries.

He's just as capable as anyone else of scoring from the 1 yd line. Stanford just doesn't need him to.

 

[bah007]

Double post

 

[TexansSeminole]

McCaffrey is the only player in the country to lead his team in rushing and receiving. On top of that, he broke Barry Sanders' national record for total yards.

The only argument I've heard against him is lack of TDs. I cannot tell you how stupid I think that is. He still scores quite frequently, but Stanford just so happens to have a 5th year senior behind him who is a little bigger, so they give him the goal line carries.

He's just as capable as anyone else of scoring from the 1 yd line. Stanford just doesn't need him to.

Wouldn't that be an argument against him as the Heisman? That Stanford just doesn't need him to do something because they have another player that can do it, arguably better. I don't think it's stupid at all, it makes perfect sense. These other guys had 18-23 rushing TDs, McCaffery has 12 rushing AND receiving. He also has a ton of carries compared to others and was less efficient with them.

I think McCaffery is a fine player and had a fine year but he's last or second to last on the list when you compare the running backs. He's also played against the weakest defensive schedule of the group, by quite a bit. Pretty weak schedule against the run overall actually.

Also, the Barry Sanders comparison only goes so far. The two years these two players had is hardly comparable actually. Barry Sanders had over 2600 rushing yards that year and 37 rushing touchdowns. He only gained 500 yards or so of punt and kick return yardage on 31 total returns. Over 1100 of McCaffery's total yards are from 50 kick and punt returns. McCaffery also only scored once on those 50 returns, whereas Barry scored twice on his 31 returns.

Again, I think he is a fine player but he is being overrated, and while it isn't his fault that he is one of only 3 invites, it's unfair to other players.

 

[TexansSeminole]

Cook's numbers are insane. Unfortunately his team was eliminated from the playoff race a month ago, thus eliminating him from Heisman contention (because that's a criteria for some reason nowadays).

I knew he wouldn't win it but he should be invited to NYC, same goes for Mayfield and Fournette. At least invite two of the three. This was a close race this year and they only invite 3 players? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Mollywhopper]

I think 4 invitees would have been perfect, 5 gets kinda muddy.

 

[TexansSeminole]

I think 4 invitees would have been perfect, 5 gets kinda muddy.

I think 5 would have been fine, isn't that normal? Maybe not, but it was warranted this year. 6 would have been muddy, although I think fair.

 

[bah007]

The way they decide who gets invited is they do a random blind poll of the voters to get an idea of what the ballots might look like. That vote doesn't count and the voters are free to change their minds afterward, but it gives an idea of who has a legitimate chance to win.

If only three were invited then it's because those three showed up on a huge majority of the blind polls and the other spots were being juggled by so many candidates that none of those guys would be expected to get enough votes to even be close to winning.

They don't want to invite someone to the ceremony and create false hope that that kid could win, only to have him come in 4th thousands of points behind the top three.

I'm not sure that's the way I would do it, but that's how I've always heard that they decide who gets invited.

 

[TexansSeminole]

The way they decide who gets invited is they do a random blind poll of the voters to get an idea of what the ballots might look like. That vote doesn't count and the voters are free to change their minds afterward, but it gives an idea of who has a legitimate chance to win.

If only three were invited then it's because those three showed up on a huge majority of the blind polls and the other spots were being juggled by so many candidates that none of those guys would be expected to get enough votes to even be close to winning.

They don't want to invite someone to the ceremony and create false hope that that kid could win, only to have him come in 4th thousands of points behind the top three.

I'm not sure that's the way I would do it, but that's how I've always heard that they decide who gets invited.

Interesting, I didn't know that. Something is wrong with the voters then. My list, in order, for Heisman would be:

Mayfield
Watson
Henry
Cook
Fournette
McCaffery

Although, the first three would be close and the last two close.

 

[bah007]

Wouldn't that be an argument against him as the Heisman? That Stanford just doesn't need him to do something because they have another player that can do it, arguably better. I don't think it's stupid at all, it makes perfect sense. These other guys had 18-23 rushing TDs, McCaffery has 12 rushing AND receiving. He also has a ton of carries compared to others and was less efficient with them.

I think McCaffery is a fine player and had a fine year but he's last or second to last on the list when you compare the running backs. He's also played against the weakest defensive schedule of the group, by quite a bit. Pretty weak schedule against the run overall actually.

Also, the Barry Sanders comparison only goes so far. The two years these two players had is hardly comparable actually. Barry Sanders had over 2600 rushing yards that year and 37 rushing touchdowns. He only gained 500 yards or so of punt and kick return yardage on 31 total returns. Over 1100 of McCaffery's total yards are from 50 kick and punt returns. McCaffery also only scored once on those 50 returns, whereas Barry scored twice on his 31 returns.

Again, I think he is a fine player but he is being overrated, and while it isn't his fault that he is one of only 3 invites, it's unfair to other players.

It's not that Remound Wright is better at it. It's that he's a fifth year senior who has put in the time for the program and Stanford wanted to reward him and create a role for him on offense. So if Stanford gets inside the five they are going to bring Wright in to get the TD.

McCaffrey accounts for 42.1% of Stanford's offense. That doesn't even account for his exploits on special teams, in which he has racked up 84.6% of their yards.

Fournette is the only back that contributes a bigger piece of his team's offense, at 42.3%.

Henry is at 37.9%. Cook at 36.8%. Elliott at 35.9%. And Freeman at 30.9%.

McCaffrey does more for his team than any player in the country. Only Watson really has a case in that department. But because he comes off the field in goal line situations but then back on the field in special teams situations that means he is somehow less worthy than the other guys? Ok. Guess those goal line TDs are really what should be the determining factor in the Heisman race.

I'm not saying that the kid is Barry Sanders. I'm just saying that he broke the record. And it's a pretty damn impressive record. For the record, I think Cook is getting snubbed. I think he is easily one of the top three backs in the country.

 

[bah007]

Interesting, I didn't know that. Something is wrong with the voters then. My list, in order, for Heisman would be:

Mayfield
Watson
Henry
Cook
Fournette
McCaffery

Although, the first three would be close and the last two close.

Funny how people can look at the same thing and see it so drastically differently. I would go:

McCaffrey
Watson

Mayfield
Cook
Fournette

Henry

 

[TexansSeminole]

It's not that Remound Wright is better at it. It's that he's a fifth year senior who has put in the time for the program and Stanford wanted to reward him and create a role for him on offense. So if Stanford gets inside the five they are going to bring Wright in to get the TD.

McCaffrey accounts for 42.1% of Stanford's offense. That doesn't even account for his exploits on special teams, in which he has racked up 84.6% of their yards.

Fournette is the only back that contributes a bigger piece of his team's offense, at 42.3%.

Henry is at 37.9%. Cook at 36.8%. Elliott at 35.9%. And Freeman at 30.9%.

McCaffrey does more for his team than any player in the country. Only Watson really has a case in that department. But because he comes off the field in goal line situations but then back on the field in special teams situations that means he is somehow less worthy than the other guys? Ok. Guess those goal line TDs are really what should be the determining factor in the Heisman race.

I'm not saying that the kid is Barry Sanders. I'm just saying that he broke the record. And it's a pretty damn impressive record. For the record, I think Cook is getting snubbed. I think he is easily one of the top three backs in the country.

It's not all about goal line carries, although that's part of it. I can't find stats on explosive plays and long touchdowns, but if you can find it, I think you might be surprised by the result. Cook probably had 12 or more 20+ yard touchdowns on the season alone. I know Cook had 22 carries of 20 yards or more and 13 carries of 30 yards or more. So, it's not all about goal line carries, it's about scoring as well.

Funny how people can look at the same thing and see it so drastically differently. I would go:

McCaffrey
Watson

Mayfield
Cook
Fournette

Henry

I was a little down on Henry at first, but what he's done gets more impressive the more I look at it.

I expected great variation in people's rankings. I'm miffed by the consensus the voters seem to have.

 

[WolverineFan]

McCaffrey does more for his team than any player in the country. Only Watson really has a case in that department. But because he comes off the field in goal line situations but then back on the field in special teams situations that means he is somehow less worthy than the other guys? Ok. Guess those goal line TDs are really what should be the determining factor in the Heisman race.

Apparently Lendale White deserved the Heisman more than Reggie Bush in 06.

He did have more TD's.

 

[TexansSeminole]

I pointed out a lot of reasons as to why the other running backs are strong candidates above McCaffery, why not discuss those? I also explained that these RBs aren't getting all their TDs on the goal line. I expected more from you WolverineFan, it's dissapointing to see you advance such a straw man argument.

Speaking of Reggie Bush though:

 

[WolverineFan]

I pointed out a lot of reasons as to why the other running backs are strong candidates above McCaffery, why not discuss those? I also explained that these RBs aren't getting all their TDs on the goal line. I expected more from you WolverineFan, it's dissapointing to see you advance such a straw man argument.

Don't take that post personal. It was tongue in cheek and directed specifically toward bah007. I didn't quote you or direct it at you for that reason.

bah and I have talked extensively in the past about the hypocrisy of the Reggie Bush Heisman run and how ESPN basically won him the trophy. Now you have a guy doing pretty much exactly what he did and he's not even going to win it, much less run away with it like Bush did.

 

[Mr teX]

I pointed out a lot of reasons as to why the other running backs are strong candidates above McCaffery, why not discuss those? I also explained that these RBs aren't getting all their TDs on the goal line. I expected more from you WolverineFan, it's dissapointing to see you advance such a straw man argument.

Speaking of Reggie Bush though:

Kid's definitely gonna be a problem for UH in the bowl game..

 

[TexansSeminole]

Don't take that post personal. It was tongue in cheek and directed specifically toward bah007. I didn't quote you or direct it at you for that reason.

bah and I have talked extensively in the past about the hypocrisy of the Reggie Bush Heisman run and how ESPN basically won him the trophy. Now you have a guy doing pretty much exactly what he did and he's not even going to win it, much less run away with it like Bush did.

I don't know, Reggie Bush was spectacular that year.

1740 rushing yards, 8.7 YPC, 16 rushing touchdowns, 478 receiving yards and 2 TDs caught. He was extremely explosive and efficient with his touches.

 

[bah007]

It's not all about goal line carries, although that's part of it. I can't find stats on explosive plays and long touchdowns, but if you can find it, I think you might be surprised by the result. Cook probably had 12 or more 20+ yard touchdowns on the season alone. I know Cook had 22 carries of 20 yards or more and 13 carries of 30 yards or more. So, it's not all about goal line carries, it's about scoring as well.



I was a little down on Henry at first, but what he's done gets more impressive the more I look at it.

I expected great variation in people's rankings. I'm miffed by the consensus the voters seem to have.

Most of that post isn't directed at Cook, who would be a Heisman finalist if he had been healthy all year. I can't find the exact stats that you're looking for but I do know that only 3 of Cook's 18 TDs came in goal line situations. So he still has a large number of explosive TDs. Compare that to Henry, who has 23 TDs. But 10 of those 23 came from inside the two-yard line.

14 of Remound Wright's 15 TDs for Stanford came inside the two-yard line.

I guess my main issue is that to me McCaffrey's versatility is much more impressive than the ability to punch in a few extra TDs from the goal line. Instead of being the goal line back he is the main offense weapon for his entire team in three different areas. He's their top rushing threat, their top receiving threat, and their top special teams threat. No other player in the country has that kind of versatility or production.

Are we really saying that Henry's ability to get 2 yards ten times means more than McCaffrey's ability to lead his team in three different categories of offense? Would McCaffrey really have a greater case for the Heisman if he were a subpar receiver and wasn't as good at returning kicks, but had Wright's 14 one-yard plunges on his resume?

That seems absolutely silly to me.

 

[TexansSeminole]

Most of that post isn't directed at Cook, who would be a Heisman finalist if he had been healthy all year. I can't find the exact stats that you're looking for but I do know that only 3 of Cook's 18 TDs came in goal line situations. So he still has a large number of explosive TDs. Compare that to Henry, who has 23 TDs. But 10 of those 23 came from inside the two-yard line.

14 of Remound Wright's 15 TDs for Stanford came inside the two-yard line.

I guess my main issue is that to me McCaffrey's versatility is much more impressive than the ability to punch in a few extra TDs from the goal line. Instead of being the goal line back he is the main offense weapon for his entire team in three different areas. He's their top rushing threat, their top receiving threat, and their top special teams threat. No other player in the country has that kind of versatility or production.

Are we really saying that Henry's ability to get 2 yards ten times means more than McCaffrey's ability to lead his team in three different categories of offense? Would McCaffrey really have a greater case for the Heisman if he were a subpar receiver and wasn't as good at returning kicks, but had Wright's 14 one-yard plunges on his resume?

That seems absolutely silly to me.

McCaffrey's versatility is impressive, and it is silly to over-weigh Henry's goal line TDs in the comparison. My main issue with McCaffrey for Heisman is his lack of rushing competition, compared to the other backs. When you look the strength of the rush defenses that Stanford played this season by itself, it's not impressive. 9 out of 12 opponents for Stanford were below average rushing defenses. When you compare it to the strength of the run defenses of the other Heisman worthy backs, it's really unimpressive and almost incomparable. It's also not as if Henry was simply not as efficient with his carries and was simply a goal line back and workhorse. He averaged almost 6 yards a run, just a tad over McCaffrey, so the efficiency in the run game is on par.

I also don't really value a player's kick and punt return yardage nearly as highly as other factors, and maybe that is wrong. McCaffrey was one of the most efficient kick returners this year though, and that deserves some credit.

 

[WolverineFan]

I don't know, Reggie Bush was spectacular that year.

1740 rushing yards, 8.7 YPC, 16 rushing touchdowns, 478 receiving yards and 2 TDs caught. He was extremely explosive and efficient with his touches.

Yes he was, but he also had great opportunity to be spectacular playing on an offense with a 3,000 yard passer, two 1,000 yard rushers, and two 1,000 yard receivers. When you played USC you had to game plan for Bush, White, Leinart, Jarrett, Smith, etc. He played on a team that put 27 guys in the NFL. When you play Stanford who do you have to game plan for? McCaffrey and........Hogan?

Total Offense
Bush - 2218 yards, 18 TD
McCaffrey - 2426 yards, 14 TD

Total Yards
Bush - 2890 yards, 19 TD
McCaffrey - 3535 yards, 15 TD

Put those two seasons together and they look pretty close. However, one guy won the trophy with the biggest margin of all-time (against possibly the most dominant QB of the modern era) while the other guy probably isn't even going to win it.

 

[TexansSeminole]

Yes he was, but he also had great opportunity to be spectacular playing on an offense with a 3,000 yard passer, two 1,000 yard rushers, and two 1,000 yard receivers. When you played USC you had to game plan for Bush, White, Leinart, Jarrett, Smith, etc. He played on a team that put 27 guys in the NFL. When you play Stanford who do you have to game plan for? McCaffrey and........Hogan?

Total Offense
Bush - 2218 yards, 18 TD
McCaffrey - 2426 yards, 14 TD

Total Yards
Bush - 2890 yards, 19 TD
McCaffrey - 3535 yards, 15 TD

Put those two seasons together and they look pretty close. However, one guy won the trophy with the biggest margin of all-time (against possibly the most dominant QB of the modern era) while the other guy probably isn't even going to win it.

Fair points. You also have to look at efficiency. 8.7 yards per carry for Bush vs 5.8 yards per carry for McCaffrey.

BTW, good discussion on the race. Oddly, it's hard to find good analysis on this topic.

 

[TexansSeminole]

A found an interesting read on the Heisman race, which includes those not invited to NYC.

The excellent Alabama back is favored over the other two finalists, Stanford's Christian McCaffrey and Clemson's Deshaun Watson, despite both of those and another at his own position being better.

...

But this is a running backs-and-quarterbacks award. Cook was more effective than Henry, which makes a case for Watson. Then again, advanced stats might favor McCaffrey.

Henry will probably win, and he's awesome. While there will be no Suh-like injustice, he's probably only the fourth-most deserving candidate.

 

[Marshall]

THEY will select Henry.

I would choose NONE OF THE ABOVE!

 

[JB]

THEY will select Henry.

I would choose NONE OF THE ABOVE!

Who would you choose and why?

 

[Marshall]

Who would you choose and why?

I don't think any of the players have been OUTSTANDING. If you have to choose one, then I'd probably go with Keenen Reynolds because he's a Cadet. But you can pull out any name from a hat among a dozen players and do just as well.

 

[JB]

I don't think any of the players have been OUTSTANDING. If you have to choose one, then I'd probably go with Keenen Reynolds because he's a Cadet. But you can pull out any name from a hat among a dozen players and do just as well.

Seriously? With a completion percentage of under 55% and under 1000 yds for the season you think he's the best player in college football? He had a nice game against Houston but...

Really? 46 of 84 for 964 yds with 6 td's is the best in the country?

 

[Marshall]

Seriously? With a completion percentage of under 55% and under 1000 yds for the season you think he's the best player in college football? He had a nice game against Houston but...

Really? 46 of 84 for 964 yds with 6 td's is the best in the country?

Seriously, I don't think ANY player is worthy this season. So don't explain to me why HE isn't.

 

[JB]

Seriously, I don't think ANY player is worthy this season. So don't explain to me why HE isn't.

Can you not remember your own words?

I don't think any of the players have been OUTSTANDING. If you have to choose one, then I'd probably go with Keenen Reynolds

You have to pick one, you said he was the most worthy. Dude ain't even close

 

[Marshall]

Can you not remember your own words?



You have to pick one, you said he was the most worthy. Dude ain't even close

Actually, I chose him for non football reasons since no one deserved it. Make your own selection and I won't oppose it. In fact, I might even consider eliminating ANYONE playing for a power 5 conference school from consideration strictly on the basis of unfair advantage derived from arogance.

 

[Mollywhopper]

If you honestly think these guys haven't had great seasons, Marshall, then I don't know why you even bother watching the game.

 

[WolverineFan]

Henry
- Broke Hershel Walker's SEC record for rushing

McCaffrey
- Broke Barry Sanders NCAA record for total yards

Watson
- With 100 rush yards in bowl game would become just 6th player ever to have a 3,000/1,000 season

 

[Marshall]

Henry
- Broke Hershel Walker's SEC record for rushing

McCaffrey
- Broke Barry Sanders NCAA record for total yards

Watson
- With 100 rush yards in bowl game would become just 6th player ever to have a 3,000/1,000 season

So which one stands out to you? I didn't say BAD, I said not OUTSTANDING.

 

[JB]

I don't think any of the players have been OUTSTANDING. If you have to choose one, then I'd probably go with Keenen Reynolds because he's a Cadet. But you can pull out any name from a hat among a dozen players and do just as well.

So which one stands out to you? I didn't say BAD, I said not OUTSTANDING.

What do you consider outstanding then?

 

[Marshall]

What do you consider outstanding then?

Stands apart from the crowd. Differentiates himself from the group. It is a relative term and not an absolute term. There are several very good players and some would say great, but none has risen above the group.

Watt is outstanding - no one else is comparable. Duane Brown is very good, but not outstanding because there are a handful of tackles at a similar high level and you can make good arguments over which is better.

 

[TexansSeminole]

The SEC back won, shocking.

 

[PapaL]

Shout out to the Alabama OL. You the real Heisman winner.

 

[bah007]

Yes I'm still sore about this.

It's a shame McCaffrey didn't win the Heisman.

 

[WolverineFan]

If McCaffrey played for an SEC team he would have broken the record for most Heisman votes.

Instead he was an afterthought despite breaking Barry Sanders 'unbreakable' record.

 

[steelbtexan]

Stands apart from the crowd. Differentiates himself from the group. It is a relative term and not an absolute term. There are several very good players and some would say great, but none has risen above the group.

Watt is outstanding - no one else is comparable. Duane Brown is very good, but not outstanding because there are a handful of tackles at a similar high level and you can make good arguments over which is better.

So if 2 guys are close to the same then they shouldn't give out the Heisman that yr. You need meds.

McCafferey broke Barry Sanders record. That deems him very worthy of a Heisman. IMHO

Have you seen McCaffery play?