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Andre Johnson released - cut by Colts - signs with Titans

Troy Chapman said:
Read those articles already, just someone guessing at what the trade value would be. Your initial post about the 2nd rounder (in my opinion) made it sound it it was reported that a 2nd was offered. What you have provided is just someone thinking what could be the value. Kind of what I figured.

Sorry that I hurt your feelings on my crazy accusations. I still disagree with your assessment.
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You need to learn - rumors and guesses become facts if repeated enough.
 
Texian said:
Are you familiar with the term "Search Engine". IE: Google?

"Second, what would it cost to pry Johnson away from the Texans? Multiple picks? Potentially as high as a first-rounder? I doubt Houston would be looking to get back anything less than a second, and frankly, their front office has the leverage. The Texans are a bad team whether Johnson holds out or not."

http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/700-level/should-eagles-make-play-wr-andre-johnson

"In Yates’ first proposal, he has the 49ers trading for Houston receiver Andre Johnson. He has the 49ers sending the Texans second- and fifth-round picks to the Texans for Johnson. "

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/122871/would-andre-johnson-trade-to-49ers-work

As for your accusations of me using HINDSIGHT:

03/14/2014 -"Graham is just a guy and according to PFF ranks close to the bottom of all TE's in 2013. Graham's new salary replaces 80% of what Daniels salary would've been. That's for the next 3 years. I'm not sure Graham is 80% the player. I'd would've preferred if the Texans had kept Daniels for another year, drafting ASJ or Amaro and then reaping the full amount of salary cap space of Daniel's salary with his departure in 2015. " http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2312059&postcount=51

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2336750&postcount=92

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2340063&postcount=200
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None of your links profess that a trade was actually offered, which is what you asserted here. http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2459185&postcount=224

Those you links you provided was nothing more than a couple bloggers with no ties to any team front office speculating on what it would take.

edit: I see that Troy already pointed out your fallacy... still the link to your comment is here so you don't have to go back and edit it.
 
Texian said:
Y'all miss the point on several accounts. First this is the typical MO for Bob McNair, plan for today, tomorrow, not so much. For perspective purposes Daniels played 822 snaps and Graham 566. If they had kept Daniels and let Graham walk the Texans would've received a 2016 comp pick. That single move alone would've almost doubled available cap space in 2015 and added a comp pick in 2016. If the Texans had just kept Manning instead of cutting him and then re-signing him they would've added another 2016 comp pick.

This is why the Texans need a real GM who can make smarter decisions for today as well a tomorrow. If you plan for 2018 and 2017 the 2015 season will take care of it itself and be much more competitive than if just plan for the season 2015. That's also why they needed to trade AJ last year, he was at the age that decline sets in and they could've received a day 2 pick. Now imagine if the Texans had done the above, Daniels $6.3M drops off the books and AJ doesn't have $7.7M in dead money. That's $17M in additional 2015 cap space and (2) 2016 comp picks. Yep the the Texans need a GM with a vision who can understand, see and can plan accordingly. Doubtful it happens, a HC has 1 year tunnel vision and if Bob McNair also has tunnel vision and if he can't see it, or understand it, it's not going to happen.
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In all seriousness, I would much rather have TEXIAN as the Texans GM than idiot Rick Smith. The Texans are led by fools. His analysis in the post I quoted is 100% dead on accurate.
 
Troy Chapman said:
Read those articles already, just someone guessing at what the trade value would be. Your initial post about the 2nd rounder (in my opinion) made it sound it it was reported that a 2nd was offered. What you have provided is just someone thinking what could be the value. Kind of what I figured.

Sorry that I hurt your feelings on my crazy accusations. I still disagree with your assessment.
Click to expand...

Of course you do, feelings are fine, you're not a big picture guy. You and I will never agree until you can see 2017 and 2018 seasons as important today as the 2015 season. Also that comp picks are important and that IF YOU CAN MANAGE to add 3 or 4 comp picks per year, over a course of 4 years you've added a dozen or so better quality players to the roster. That's a 25% improvement in the team. That's BIG! Dismissing comp picks is a recipe for average and ordinary.

Also managing the 2016,17 and 18 salary caps are just as important as the 2015 cap. You've to manage the cap to be on par or better than than the other teams in your division if you want to remain competitive. If you don't you will continually be looking for band aids to get you through, year after year after year. And that is what Texans are now doing. Until you and McNair can start thinking in those terms regarding draft picks and salary cap the Texans will continue to wallow in a sea of mediocrity.
 
steelbtexan said:
conundrum said:
The butthurt is strong in this thread.

Does know no one see this for what it is. The Texans knew they were going to cut Andre if he didn't agree to a paycut.
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Great post.

Everybody but Cak knows the Texans were going to ask AJ to take a paycut. How does anybody really know what goes on behind the sceenes in the Texans org.

All we can do is speculate.
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So why didn't they ask him to take a pay cut?

This would be like asking Logan Mankins to only play special teams. Or telling Richard Seymour you'll only use him on first downs.
 
Texian said:
Also that comp picks are important and that IF YOU CAN MANAGE to add 3 or 4 comp picks per year, over a course of 4 years you've added a dozen or so better quality players to the roster. That's a 25% improvement in the team. That's BIG! Dismissing comp picks is a recipe for average and ordinary.
Click to expand...

Comp picks should be considered but you are vastly overstating their potential. To get 4 comp picks per year you have all sorts of talent leaving in free agency over what you are getting back. Then most of the comp picks are 5th round and beyond. Nobody is coming close to hitting on all of those. And the idea they are "better quality" players than what you lost to get them is pure self-serving assumption. Again, they should be considered but for the realistically much lower pay-off they are than what you are describing.
 
thunderkyss said:
So why didn't they ask him to take a pay cut?

This would be like asking Logan Mankins to only play special teams. Or telling Richard Seymour you'll only use him on first downs.
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You're taking Andre's word for it without hearing it from both sides. Spin works both directions.

Personally Im done with it already. What's done is done, time to move on

74343-Tombstone-well-bye-gif-hji0.gif
 
infantrycak said:
Comp picks should be considered but you are vastly overstating their potential. To get 4 comp picks per year you have all sorts of talent leaving in free agency over what you are getting back. Then most of the comp picks are 5th round and beyond. Nobody is coming close to hitting on all of those. And the idea they are "better quality" players than what you lost to get them is pure self-serving assumption. Again, they should be considered but for the realistically much lower pay-off they are than what you are describing.
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But we could let KJ, Newton, Reed, and Lewis walk and maybe get a late 4th, 2 late 5ths and a late 6th pick 2 years down the road. Surely that's got to be a better way to build the team than keeping proven talent.

:sarcasm:
 
infantrycak said:
You hear any corrections from the Texans? That deafening silence is 'the other side.'
Click to expand...

Best to let the fire die down a bit before saying anything. Either way everyone is jumping on Andre's side without hearing everything. They will say something very soon is my guess when they have a press conference to announce a signing or two.
 
HTown2ATX said:
Again, I think most of us are ok with AJ being gone, but they didn't have to give him a rubber glove on the way out the door. My beef is how they handled it or rather botched it in classic Texans style.
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I had a Cleveland Browns' fan laughing at me & the team I support today.


A Browns' fan.

No matter what I said... no matter what stupid historical Cleveland Brown demonstration of ineptitude I could come up with, I couldn't top him. He kept saying, "Reduced role..." or "40 catches..."
 
I have to admit I like the vast difference in opinions regarding the Texans FO.
They range from one of our members calling the Texans a marketing company with a football division, to others saying they are completely inept at marketing, and PR.

My suspicion is that there has to be more to this than what were are hearing. I'm leaning toward the Texans having verbal agreements with one or more free agents that make AJ expendable. They can't announce that, though, because it would be against the rules to have such contact or agreements at this point in the league year.
 
Texian said:
Of course you do, feelings are fine, you're not a big picture guy. You and I will never agree until you can see 2017 and 2018 seasons as important today as the 2015 season. Also that comp picks are important and that IF YOU CAN MANAGE to add 3 or 4 comp picks per year, over a course of 4 years you've added a dozen or so better quality players to the roster. That's a 25% improvement in the team. That's BIG! Dismissing comp picks is a recipe for average and ordinary.

Also managing the 2016,17 and 18 salary caps are just as important as the 2015 cap. You've to manage the cap to be on par or better than than the other teams in your division if you want to remain competitive. If you don't you will continually be looking for band aids to get you through, year after year after year. And that is what Texans are now doing. Until you and McNair can start thinking in those terms regarding draft picks and salary cap the Texans will continue to wallow in a sea of mediocrity.
Click to expand...

I examine the future just like you do. Today the team only has $85m committed in 2016, $46m in 2017, and $31m in 2018. Just because you value comp picks doesn't make you better at seeing the big picture.

The reason I don't put much emphasis on comp picks...if I am depending on comp picks that means I am not resigning any of my talent. Sure comp picks are great to have, but I'd rather be focusing on signing my drafted talent for the long term. And letting the mid levels guys walk.

I think the team has positioned themselves wonderfully for the future; including 2015 and beyond.
 
Texian said:
Of course you do, feelings are fine, you're not a big picture guy. You and I will never agree until you can see 2017 and 2018 seasons as important today as the 2015 season. Also that comp picks are important and that IF YOU CAN MANAGE to add 3 or 4 comp picks per year, over a course of 4 years you've added a dozen or so better quality players to the roster. That's a 25% improvement in the team. That's BIG! Dismissing comp picks is a recipe for average and ordinary.

Also managing the 2016,17 and 18 salary caps are just as important as the 2015 cap. You've to manage the cap to be on par or better than than the other teams in your division if you want to remain competitive. If you don't you will continually be looking for band aids to get you through, year after year after year. And that is what Texans are now doing. Until you and McNair can start thinking in those terms regarding draft picks and salary cap the Texans will continue to wallow in a sea of mediocrity.
Click to expand...

You're letting three or four guys walk every year that are valuable enough to garner comp picks of any value?
You better be batting .999 on draft day.
 
michaelm said:
I have to admit I like the vast difference in opinions regarding the Texans FO.
They range from one of our members calling the Texans a marketing company with a football division, to others saying they are completely inept at marketing, and PR.

My suspicion is that there has to be more to this than what were are hearing. I'm leaning toward the Texans having verbal agreements with one or more free agents that make AJ expendable. They can't announce that, though, because it would be against the rules to have such contact or agreements at this point in the league year.
Click to expand...

So your theory is that the Texans are cheaters and that explains everything?
 
Troy Chapman said:
I examine the future just like you do. Today the team only has $85m committed in 2016, $46m in 2017, and $31m in 2018. Just because you value comp picks doesn't make you better at seeing the big picture.

The reason I don't put much emphasis on comp picks...if I am depending on comp picks that means I am not resigning any of my talent. Sure comp picks are great to have, but I'd rather be focusing on signing my drafted talent for the long term. And letting the mid levels guys walk.

I think the team has positioned themselves wonderfully for the future; including 2015 and beyond.
Click to expand...

The reason the Texans cannot re-sign most of their original talent is because they have mismanaged and mortgaged the salary cap. The same applies to 2015. The fact that you think cutting Manning only to re-sign him forfeiting a comp pick was a good idea, paints a clear picture of your mindset. I don't think you really think it was a good idea but your defending such a bad decision tells me all I need to know.
 
Texian said:
Of course you do, feelings are fine, you're not a big picture guy. You and I will never agree until you can see 2017 and 2018 seasons as important today as the 2015 season. Also that comp picks are important and that IF YOU CAN MANAGE to add 3 or 4 comp picks per year, over a course of 4 years you've added a dozen or so better quality players to the roster. That's a 25% improvement in the team. That's BIG! Dismissing comp picks is a recipe for average and ordinary.
Click to expand...

On the surface, this idea has merit, but eventually the law of diminishing rewards has to take effect... & though many aren't thrilled with our current roster, I think we can argue we've lost several players over the last five years that aren't going to be replaced by compensatory picks. So you have to consider where you start as well.


But... if we're going on the premise that "we were going to cut Aj this year" anyway... you make a good point.
 
El Tejano said:
Bob McAdams.... and Rick Holovak....Oiler fans no what I'm saying.
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Don't you dare compare the idiot Rick Smith with Mike Holovak of the Oilers. Holovak was exceptional in the draft. He found late round gems like Blaine Bishop in the 7th round and the Oilers had deep teams back in the Run N Shoot era. Dick Smith can't hold a candle to Holovak.
 
thunderkyss said:
I had a Cleveland Browns' fan laughing at me & the team I support today.


A Browns' fan.

No matter what I said... no matter what stupid historical Cleveland Brown demonstration of ineptitude I could come up with, I couldn't top him. He kept saying, "Reduced role..." or "40 catches..."
Click to expand...

Sounds about right :gun:
 
DX-TEX said:
You're taking Andre's word for it without hearing it from both sides. Spin works both directions.

Personally Im done with it already. What's done is done, time to move on
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For the most part, yeah. I'm saying if it went that way.... it doesn't make any sense.


I've also said if the Texans offered him a restructured deal that kept him in Houston till he retires & greatly reduced his cap number... & Andre balked, then that's on Andre...

tumblr_n3tvy3PhuR1ty59p7o4_250.gif
 
Thorn said:
meh......who needs an old washed up receiver anyway?

What the Texans need to do is trade everything they can to get the number 1 pick in the draft and get another defensive lineman. We've had so much success with that in the past.
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More linemen and definitely more cowbell!
cowbell.gif


infantrycak said:
Comp picks should be considered but you are vastly overstating their potential. To get 4 comp picks per year you have all sorts of talent leaving in free agency over what you are getting back. Then most of the comp picks are 5th round and beyond. Nobody is coming close to hitting on all of those. And the idea they are "better quality" players than what you lost to get them is pure self-serving assumption. Again, they should be considered but for the realistically much lower pay-off they are than what you are describing.
Click to expand...

Being an armchair GM is fun and easy!....when you don't have to actually deal with someone else's money, actually be accountable, and all your decisions happen in a vacuum.

michaelm said:
I have to admit I like the vast difference in opinions regarding the Texans FO.
They range from one of our members calling the Texans a marketing company with a football division, to others saying they are completely inept at marketing, and PR.

My suspicion is that there has to be more to this than what were are hearing. I'm leaning toward the Texans having verbal agreements with one or more free agents that make AJ expendable. They can't announce that, though, because it would be against the rules to have such contact or agreements at this point in the league year.
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Now that was a Vinnyism that I have oft-quoted (because it's funny and cynical, and has a grain of truth to it), and in his absence as a defense, 13 straight seasons of stadium sellouts (and a 2-3 year waiting list!) in spite of seasonal results, while also being valued in the top 10 of sports franchises worldwide, speaks volumes about the effectiveness and success of that marketing company.

thunderkyss said:
I had a Cleveland Browns' fan laughing at me & the team I support today.


A Browns' fan.

No matter what I said... no matter what stupid historical Cleveland Brown demonstration of ineptitude I could come up with, I couldn't top him. He kept saying, "Reduced role..." or "40 catches..."
Click to expand...

Two words to shut those STD-infected nimrods down about their perpetually loser franchise: Johnny Manziel.

That and poop brown helmets. Those things are fugly.
 
Texian said:
The reason the Texans cannot re-sign most of their original talent is because they have mismanaged and mortgaged the salary cap. The same applies to 2015. The fact that you think cutting Manning only to re-sign him forfeiting a comp pick was a good idea, paints a clear picture of your mindset. I don't think you really think it was a good idea but your defending such a bad decision tells me all I need to know.
Click to expand...

If Manning was cut there would have been no comp pick. Letting him go search out his market value to return and sign a much more friendly contract was definitely a good move. You are over valuing comp picks and don't seem to understand how they are awarded
 
JB said:
If Manning was cut there would have been no comp pick. Letting him go search out his market value to return and sign a much more friendly contract was definitely a good move. You are over valuing comp picks and don't seem to understand how they are awarded
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He appears to be arguing they should have kept him at full salary in order to get a comp pick.

The way they did it they kept the player and lowered his cap by $3.93 mil. When he came back he was on a vet minimum contract so although it was for $855k it only counted $570k.
 
Report: 3 teams willing to pay Andre Johnson $10 million in 2015

The Texans may be ready to move on from 33-year-old Andre Johnson, but that doesn't mean the best player in team history will have trouble finding work.

In fact, according to BleacherReport.com's Jason Cole, at least three teams are willing to pay Johnson the $10 million he was set to make in Houston in 2015. And one of those teams, the Indianapolis Colts, has a real need for a downfield playmaker.

Source
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Makes me sick to think of A.J. in a Colts uni. :gun:
 
thunderkyss said:
For the most part, yeah. I'm saying if it went that way.... it doesn't make any sense.


I've also said if the Texans offered him a restructured deal that kept him in Houston till he retires & greatly reduced his cap number... & Andre balked, then that's on Andre...

tumblr_n3tvy3PhuR1ty59p7o4_250.gif
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Last year, he held out in search of more guaranteed money. Last week, he laughed at the coach during a discussion about his role in 2015... His agent said the reduced role was going to lead to a request to reduce his pay and they weren't interested in that discussion.

I am not sure what else you need to hear before realizing the inevitability of this move and it's logic.
 
Double Barrel said:
Makes me sick to think of A.J. in a Colts uni. :gun:
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I can make you feel worse. If that scenario plays out, the Texans will be paying $7.4 mil in dead money for him not to play for us.

dalemurphy said:
Last year, he held out in search of more guaranteed money. Last week, he laughed at the coach during a discussion about his role in 2015... His agent said the reduced role was going to lead to a request to reduce his pay and they weren't interested in that discussion.
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You have quotes for those assertions or are we just making things up now?
 
Double Barrel said:
Two words to shut those STD-infected nimrods down about their perpetually loser franchise: Johnny Manziel.

That and poop brown helmets. Those things are fugly.
Click to expand...

If you need a few more, throw Trent Richardson, Brandon Weeden, Brady Quinn Braylon Edwards, and Tim Couch at them...


And the poop brown helmets again...
 
dalemurphy said:
Last year, he held out in search of more guaranteed money. Last week, he laughed at the coach during a discussion about his role in 2015... His agent said the reduced role was going to lead to a request to reduce his pay and they weren't interested in that discussion.

I am not sure what else you need to hear before realizing the inevitability of this move and it's logic.
Click to expand...

What I would like to have seen is a report stating the Texans asked Andre to take a pay cut & he said no.

What we have been seeing is that the Texans asked Andre to take a lesser role.

Of course that would come with a pay cut, but for all we know, to stay in Houston he might have taken a pay cut if he was still going to be able to play. For all we know, he probably would have been ok with being #2 on this team.

But all we've heard so far is that he was asked to take a "40 catch season" role with the team.

Asking him to play a "40 catch" role is like saying the Texans don't believe he is worth the league minimum. & there is no "inevitability" or "logic" to asking Aj to take league minimum.
 
Rick Smith had a sit down meeting with Andre Johnson prior to Bill O'Brien's meeting. Both with Johnson's agent.

-- 610AM SportsRadio


“It’s business,” Johnson said. “I understand that side of it. I’m not angry about it. I knew at some point in time this day would come."
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JB said:
If you need a few more, throw Trent Richardson, Brandon Weeden, Brady Quinn Braylon Edwards, and Tim Couch at them...


And the poop brown helmets again...
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None of those... not even Johnny Manziel is as bad as asking Andre to take a 40catch role with the team.

It's one thing to gamble on college players & for them to not pan out. It happens. Happens to everyone. More often to some than others, but it happens.

But teams can be forgiven for misjudging talent they've only scouted from afar.


Now if they've worked with any of those guys for a complete season (Bill O'Brien), eight seasons (Rick Smith), or 12 seasons (McNair) & not be able to see what kind of talent you're kicking out the door...... nah, that's inexcusable.
 
Playoffs said:
Rick Smith had a sit down meeting with Andre Johnson prior to Bill O'Brien's meeting. Both with Johnson's agent.

-- 610AM SportsRadio
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Rick Smith is just doing his job and that is to do whatever it is that Bob McNair and Bill O'Brien ask him to do.
 
thunderkyss said:
What I would like to have seen is a report stating the Texans asked Andre to take a pay cut & he said no.

What we have been seeing is that the Texans asked Andre to take a lesser role.

Of course that would come with a pay cut, but for all we know, to stay in Houston he might have taken a pay cut if he was still going to be able to play. For all we know, he probably would have been ok with being #2 on this team.

But all we've heard so far is that he was asked to take a "40 catch season" role with the team.

Asking him to play a "40 catch" role is like saying the Texans don't believe he is worth the league minimum. & there is no "inevitability" or "logic" to asking Aj to take league minimum.
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If this "40 catch" and backup role request turns out to be true, it honestly makes me perceive it as bush league. The more I think about it, the goofier it becomes. Hopefully there is more to the story and we get a bigger picture from both sides, but right now, as it stands, it's pretty chump.

Pay-cut request is understandable. Refusing a pay-cut request is also understandable. Part ways due to differences and that is that. All understandable in a salary cap league and players wanting to maximize their salaries.

But the "40 catch" and backup role is a freakin' joke, if true.
 
infantrycak said:
You have quotes for those assertions or are we just making things up now?
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Assertion #1- AJ held out last year seeking more guaranteed money:

"What we were looking to do last year was have an element of assurance that we wouldn’t be in this position this year," McGuire said. "That was not asking for any more dollars. Basically what we wanted was the security in knowing that [Johnson] would be playing for the Texans in ’15."- Andre's agent.

Assertion #2- AJ laughed at the coach during a 1 on 1 meeting about 2015

*Andre tweeted that he laughed when BoB told him.

Assertion #3- "reduced role" was code for pay cut

Johnson has stated that he was told he would not be a starter and McGuire believes that the reduction in role was a way for the Texans to, in a round about way, ask for a pay-cut
 
thunderkyss said:
None of those... not even Johnny Manziel is as bad as asking Andre to take a 40catch role with the team.

It's one thing to gamble on college players & for them to not pan out. It happens. Happens to everyone. More often to some than others, but it happens.

But teams can be forgiven for misjudging talent they've only scouted from afar.


Now if they've worked with any of those guys for a complete season (Bill O'Brien), eight seasons (Rick Smith), or 12 seasons (McNair) & not be able to see what kind of talent you're kicking out the door...... nah, that's inexcusable.
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I agree with you, and that's why I was so upset last night. If they don't think he can play, or don't think he's worth the $10.5m, then cut him or ask him to take a pay cut.
 
Double Barrel said:
If this "40 catch" and backup role request turns out to be true, it honestly makes me perceive it as bush league. The more I think about it, the goofier it becomes. Hopefully there is more to the story and we get a bigger picture from both sides, but right now, as it stands, it's pretty chump.

Pay-cut request is understandable. Refusing a pay-cut request is also understandable. Part ways due to differences and that is that. All understandable in a salary cap league and players wanting to maximize their salaries.

But the "40 catch" and backup role is a freakin' joke, if true.
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Yeah this is what I was trying to say. MSR
 
Hervoyel said:
Well, if the Texans are never going to win in Indy at least their greatest player will manage to at least once before he retires.
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How ironic would it be if he signs with the Colts then we beat them for the first time in Indy?
Maybe that's not irony, though... I've never been very good applying that word.
 
Double Barrel said:
If this "40 catch" and backup role request turns out to be true, it honestly makes me perceive it as bush league. The more I think about it, the goofier it becomes. Hopefully there is more to the story and we get a bigger picture from both sides, but right now, as it stands, it's pretty chump.

Pay-cut request is understandable. Refusing a pay-cut request is also understandable. Part ways due to differences and that is that. All understandable in a salary cap league and players wanting to maximize their salaries.

But the "40 catch" and backup role is a freakin' joke, if true.
Click to expand...
I'll just throw this out and see if it sticks : perhaps the organization was simple being honest with Dre; and perhaps they are seriously considering taking a WR with the #16 pick. And if this is the case, then anticipating Dre being on the field mostly for three wide receiver sets, effectively making Dre the #3 receiver. I don't think you draft a receiver at 16 with the anticipation he'll be the third receiver. The team may have just exposed their cards.
 
Number19 said:
I'll just throw this out and see if it sticks : perhaps the organization was simple being honest with Dre; and perhaps they are seriously considering taking a WR with the #16 pick. And if this is the case, then anticipating Dre being on the field mostly for three wide receiver sets, effectively making Dre the #3 receiver. I don't think you draft a receiver at 16 with the anticipation he'll be the third receiver. The team may have just exposed their cards.
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Except for all the talk OB has done about needing a slot wr
 
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