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JaDeveon Clowney

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Double Barrel said:
If true, then we need to collectively get off Rick Smith's back and accept that he's just a lap dog.

And if true, we need to accept that this team will forever be wallowing in mediocrity, because owners historically never make good GMs for their teams.

And if true, then we are just rooting for a blind squirrel hoping to get an occasional nut.
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I agree with your comments about Rick Smith. Here is my position on what I think are Smith's responsibilities:

Rick is there to do what McNair and the Head Coach need for him to do. In addition Rick is also responsible for overseeing the pro and college scouting departments. Along with organizing and operating the draft. That doesn't mean that Rick is making the draft picks. It means he orchestrates the draft from a standpoint that if McNair/O'Brien say trade down or move up Rick makes it happen. If O'Brien says he wants to target Nix with the next pick in the next round, Rick advises they may have to move up to get Nix. If O'Brien says do it, Rick makes it happen. If McNair/O'Brien say draft Clowney with the first pick, Rick makes happen. The only area where Rick Smith can really be held accountable and responsible is the performance of the scouting departments. And in mind, for that, Rick gets a C- or a D grade. So in essence Rick is not directly making any decisions where he can be held accountable.

Casserly on the other hand had done much more where he could be held accountable and judged, beginning with the hiring of Capers.

https://espn.go.com/chrismortensen/s/2001/0119/1026375.html

Casserly also had final say on the 53 man roster where Smith does not. There is no real benefit of the doubt for Smith because he is simply completing the task he has been asked to do by the Head Coach and the Owner. It's hard to fire a guy when he's doing what you ask him to do.
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In addition to that I will add when the Texans bring players in on Tuesday's during the season as possible replacements for injured players, Smith is responsible for the 3-5 players they bring in. O'Brien and his coaches determine who it is they want to sign.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2423878&postcount=441
 
Double Barrel said:
It is obvious that O'Brien did not think Bortles could run his offense. Otherwise, Bortles would have been picked 1.1.
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I wouldn't characterize it quite like that, most QB coaches think they can coach up guys. O'Brien saw shortcomings, and he repeatedly said if you're going to pick a QB at 1-1 and you have, say, 10 things you think are important for your QB to have... the guy you select better have a check in every single box. O'Brien said "No" to Bortles at 1-1, that's all.
Texian said:
In addition to that I will add when the Texans bring players in on Tuesday's during the season as possible replacements for injured players, Smith is responsible for the 3-5 players they bring in...
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No, Brian Gaine is Director of Pro Personnel and he is who's responsible for that. So Rick does not get credit for guys like Darryl Morris, John Simon, Jumal Rolle, and others... that goes to Gaine and the coaches.
 
Playoffs said:
I wouldn't characterize it quite like that, most QB coaches think they can coach up guys. O'Brien saw shortcomings, and he repeatedly said if you're going to pick a QB at 1-1 and you have, say, 10 things you think are important for your QB to have... the guy you select better have a check in every single box. O'Brien said "No" to Bortles at 1-1, that's all.
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Maybe you can refresh my/our recollection but there was a report the debate was Clowney v. Bortles and there was a card with Bortles' name on it ready to hand in. If that's the case then it doesn't sound like (a) OB thinking Bortles couldn't do it or (b) McNair saying no to a QB.

No, Brian Gaine is Director of Pro Personnel and he is who's responsible for that. So Rick does not get credit for guys like Darryl Morris, John Simon, Jumal Rolle, and others... that goes to Gaine and the coaches.
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Seems like the buck stops here logic only applies for bad things.
 
I think if a head coach truly believes in a draft pick as his potential starting QB, he's going to pull the trigger. The position is too important in today's NFL to pass on someone that you feel can run your system.

There was something in O'Brien's perspective that made him doubt Bortles and choose Clowney instead. Otherwise, it's pretty simple and obvious: he would have went with Bortles. It's not rocket science to use deductive reasoning to figure it out. It sounds like Bortles was high on his list, but Bortles lacked something to make O'Brien confident in the pick.

There's no speculation required to comprehend that the Texans did not choose Bortles with the pick. That's just a fact.
 
Double Barrel said:
I think if a head coach truly believes in a draft pick as his potential starting QB, he's going to pull the trigger. The position is too important in today's NFL to pass on someone that you feel can run your system.

There was something in O'Brien's perspective that made him doubt Bortles and choose Clowney instead. Otherwise, it's pretty simple and obvious: he would have went with Bortles. It's not rocket science to use deductive reasoning to figure it out. It sounds like Bortles was high on his list, but Bortles lacked something to make O'Brien confident in the pick.

There's no speculation required to comprehend that the Texans did not choose Bortles with the pick. That's just a fact.
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maybe he had Bortles and Bridgewater neck and neck and felt sure he could get one at 2-1
 
Double Barrel said:
There was something in O'Brien's perspective that made him doubt Bortles and choose Clowney instead.
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Now there is a sentence that cuts both ways.

Something in O'Brien's perspective made him doubt Bortles at 1/1, but that perspective also didn't cast the same doubt on Clowney at 1/1 when there were some clear warning flags about him too.
 
Playoffs said:
I wouldn't characterize it quite like that, most QB coaches think they can coach up guys. O'Brien saw shortcomings, and he repeatedly said if you're going to pick a QB at 1-1 and you have, say, 10 things you think are important for your QB to have... the guy you select better have a check in every single box. O'Brien said "No" to Bortles at 1-1, that's all.


No, Brian Gaine is Director of Pro Personnel and he is who's responsible for that. So Rick does not get credit for guys like Darryl Morris, John Simon, Jumal Rolle, and others... that goes to Gaine and the coaches.
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Gaine reports to Smith, so you get my point. So Smith tells Gaine to line up the Top 3-5 players at a position for a workout.
 
Double Barrel said:
I think if a head coach truly believes in a draft pick as his potential starting QB, he's going to pull the trigger. The position is too important in today's NFL to pass on someone that you feel can run your system.

There was something in O'Brien's perspective that made him doubt Bortles and choose Clowney instead. Otherwise, it's pretty simple and obvious: he would have went with Bortles. It's not rocket science to use deductive reasoning to figure it out. It sounds like Bortles was high on his list, but Bortles lacked something to make O'Brien confident in the pick.

There's no speculation required to comprehend that the Texans did not choose Bortles with the pick. That's just a fact.
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Now try walking in the owners shoes
 
infantrycak said:
Maybe you can refresh my/our recollection but there was a report the debate was Clowney v. Bortles and there was a card with Bortles' name on it ready to hand in...
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That was Tony Pauline who "reported" that.

Think about it... do you really think after all of that time -- college film; "Draft" Bowls; interviews of every coach who coached them and players who played with them and any other person who crossed their life path; NFL Combine (medicals/rechecks/personality & aptitude profiles); Pro Days; Team Visits... and all of the added time to delaying the draft... that they didn't know who they would select? C'mon, man!

Rick was hoping for a 3 for 1 offer, of course, but RG3 killed that. If OB wanted Bortles he would be a Texan. McNair was smitten with JFF.

infantrycak said:
Seems like the buck stops here logic only applies for bad things.
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It goes with the job description. That's what he does. And if you follow who and how we have signed pro players in the past you'll see a difference. I wasn't too thrilled with Gaine -- coming from Jeff Ireland's "camp" -- but he is turning me around and has a lot of respect around the league.
 
JB said:
maybe he had Bortles and Bridgewater neck and neck and felt sure he could get one at 2-1
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yeah, good point. Just seems like an offensive minded HC would take the player that he feels gives him the best opportunity to run his offense. I'm not sure O'Brien thought either of these QBs were worthy. It's so important to have a solid QB, but picking one that high has its own share of pressure that does not exist if you pick one in later round or in FA, which is what he eventually did with Savage and Fitz.

Runner said:
Now there is a sentence that cuts both ways.

Something in O'Brien's perspective made him doubt Bortles at 1/1, but that perspective also didn't cast the same doubt on Clowney at 1/1 when there were some clear warning flags about him too.
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Maybe that is where the owner comes in and waves his little alma mater flag? ;)
 
Playoffs said:
That was Tony Pauline who "reported" that.

Think about it... do you really think after all of that time -- college film; "Draft" Bowls; interviews of every coach who coached them and players who played with them and any other person who crossed their life path; NFL Combine (medicals/rechecks/personality & aptitude profiles); Pro Days; Team Visits... and all of the added time to delaying the draft... that they didn't know who they would select? C'mon, man!
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It makes sense if you've an owner who's suffring from, "Post Traumatic David Carr Syndrome."
 
Double Barrel said:
Maybe that is where the owner comes in and waves his little alma mater flag? ;)
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I'm not into conspiracy theories and such so I'm not going to make this one of the things I beat to death. However, I seriously wonder what effect that particular flag had.
 
infantrycak said:
I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell McNair told his shiny new QB/offense guru HC he couldn't have any QB he wanted in the draft. None.
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:rofl:

I don't think there's a snowball's chance that McNair wasn't:

A) Gun shy about dropping a 1-1 on a QB

B) Listening to all the reports that said Clowney was the best of this last draft (BPA)

I don't knock the Clowney pick, but the Texans QB need surely superceded that of a DE/OLB. Just like Kubiak telling McNair that he could make Carr "work", I suspect the Texans 2nd First-time NFL HC told his boss that he could "get someone later" if need be to allow the Clowney pick.

This was a first-time NFL HC who is going to be checked-and-balanced regarding his draft input, not a veteran who could demand the GM job as well.
 
disaacks3 said:
:rofl:

I don't think there's a snowball's chance that McNair wasn't:

A) Gun shy about dropping a 1-1 on a QB

B) Listening to all the reports that said Clowney was the best of this last draft (BPA)

I don't knock the Clowney pick, but the Texans QB need surely superceded that of a DE/OLB. Just like Kubiak telling McNair that he could make Carr "work", I suspect the Texans 2nd First-time NFL HC told his boss that he could "get someone later" if need be to allow the Clowney pick.

This was a first-time NFL HC who is going to be checked-and-balanced regarding his draft input, not a veteran who could demand the GM job as well.
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Not buying it. The biggest problem last season was QB. McNair went out and got a QB/offense guy. Just doesn't fly that he wouldn't let OB take at QB if that is who he wanted.

And if we're getting into wild McNair prior draft pick speculation, it's not like Mario worked out so great either.

But since we are doing wild speculation, "get one later" doesn't fly either. It's not like Carr where he had an incumbent he was really attached to emotionally and financially and made the hiring contingent on that guy. To the contrary, the virtual known was we did not have our starting QB on the roster. Not buying that McNair even knew anything significant about the QBs coming out that he would make hiring OB conditional on "getting a QB later."
 
Playoffs said:
And if you follow who and how we have signed pro players in the past you'll see a difference. I wasn't too thrilled with Gaine -- coming from Jeff Ireland's "camp" -- but he is turning me around and has a lot of respect around the league.
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What difference do you see?

We signed players that were familiar with our defensive coordinator..... Powe, Lewis, & whoever that other safety was. Nix went on IR, Powe & Jamison weren't getting it done & we signed the biggest, fattest guy we could find.

Picking up a couple of guys (Simon, Johnson) off other team's practice squads... that's a bit of a difference.
 
infantrycak said:
Not buying it. The biggest problem last season was QB. McNair went out and got a QB/offense guy. Just doesn't fly that he wouldn't let OB take at QB if that is who he wanted.

And if we're getting into wild McNair prior draft pick speculation, it's not like Mario worked out so great either.

But since we are doing wild speculation, "get one later" doesn't fly either. It's not like Carr where he had an incumbent he was really attached to emotionally and financially and made the hiring contingent on that guy. To the contrary, the virtual known was we did not have our starting QB on the roster. Not buying that McNair even knew anything significant about the QBs coming out that he would make hiring OB conditional on "getting a QB later."
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Already attached to Clowney emotionally works very well right there counselor.

QB was the need, everyone sees it - Does anyone really think that Savage was the 1st choice?

It's the "we're letting a first-time NFL HC completely have his way" storyline that just doesn't fly. Heck, we keep discussing if Rick Smith is a patsy and he's the GM.

Playoffs said:
Zero.
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So, you think Savage was O'brien's first choice as well??
 
disaacks3 said:
So, you think Savage was O'brien's first choice as well??
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I personally think it was Jimmy Garoppolo, and O'Brien thought that he'd still be there in the third round. And he almost was there...

d11d1c516380d1c6ed3da36170911e6e4c7c3683a178d1573d9f56f12fe6a193.jpg
 
thunderkyss said:
What difference do you see?
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Philip Supernaw and his travelling band have moved to Baltimore.

Ryan Pickett, Darryl Morris, Jumal Rolle, John Simon, Kendrick Lewis all contributing on a defense that leads the league in turnovers and on the verge of setting a franchise record.

We've made a lot of moves, rotating guys in for looks and getting rid of guys if we find a better one. Practice squad changes weekly, seems like. The roster is evolving -- not a re-run of the good ol' friends of Kubes.
 
disaacks3 said:
Already attached to Clowney emotionally works very well right there counselor.

QB was the need, everyone sees it - Does anyone really think that Savage was the 1st choice?

It's the "we're letting a first-time NFL HC completely have his way" storyline that just doesn't fly. Heck, we keep discussing if Rick Smith is a patsy and he's the GM.

So, you think Savage was O'brien's first choice as well??
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What I am disputing is that McNair told OB he couldn't have Bortles IF that was who OB wanted. We don't know OB wasn't on board with Clowney over Bortles. This whole plot line has been made up that OB wanted Bortles, who was no Andrew Luck prospect, and McNair refused.

What are you going to add on to this miraculous let's not get a QB story and say McNair wouldn't let OB pick Bridgewater, Garoppalo, Carr, Manziel, also? I guess McNair was in love with X at LG too?
 
infantrycak said:
I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell McNair told his shiny new QB/offense guru HC he couldn't have any QB he wanted in the draft. None.
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I wouldn't put it past Rick Smith to "work" the draft.....


Smith:

"Don't worry, we'll get Bridgewater at 33..."
"What I tell you huh? what I say? He'll drop a few more..."
"Look at that... 32. Wait.. wait.."

"WTF!!!!...."

"It's ok... It's ok, we'll get Garoppolo at 65."
"Calm down, he'll be there... he'll be ther... Son of a Bch"



"Well... there are these rumors, about a guy in New England..."
 
infantrycak said:
What I am disputing is that McNair told OB he couldn't have Bortles IF that was who OB wanted. We don't know OB wasn't on board with Clowney over Bortles. This whole plot line has been made up that OB wanted Bortles, who was no Andrew Luck prospect, and McNair refused.

What are you going to add on to this miraculous let's not get a QB story and say McNair wouldn't let OB pick Bridgewater, Garoppalo, Carr, Manziel, also? I guess McNair was in love with X at LG too?
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Now who's adding on? I see a new employee willing to "give a little" for his boss' preference and you guys act like that's out of the question. Is that really that big of a stretch?

Playoffs said:
Nope. Only said OB didn't value Bortles as the first overall pick. Doesn't mean he wouldn't have drafted him.
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I can buy that. Still needed that QB more than a DE/OLB though.
 
Playoffs said:
Philip Supernaw and his travelling band have moved to Baltimore.

Ryan Pickett, Darryl Morris, Jumal Rolle, John Simon, Kendrick Lewis all contributing on a defense that leads the league in turnovers and on the verge of setting a franchise record.

We've made a lot of moves, rotating guys in for looks and getting rid of guys if we find a better one. Practice squad changes weekly, seems like. The roster is evolving -- not a re-run of the good ol' friends of Kubes.
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Oh I see... you really hated Kubiak.


Gotcha.
 
disaacks3 said:
Now who's adding on? I see a new employee willing to "give a little" for his boss' preference and you guys act like that's out of the question. Is that really that big of a stretch?
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Give a little? Not even sure what that means in the context of this conversation. If you mean OB was essentially sitting around on the fence in his own mind and McNair and/or Smith expressed a strong opinion so OB said "let's go with that." Sure I think that could happen and is far more typical than all this "proper roles" and one person being guaranteed the pick discussions.

But that's not at all what was being discussed which was OB clearly wanting Bortles and McNair saying "no, take Clowney."
 
Texian said:
Cak does more than his fair of insults and name calling, posts only to argue, the poster child of Internet tough Guy, that's why he's on IGNORE.

Wonder if additional damage was done from coming back to quick and trying to play with a bad knee????



I think the timeline was he announced Andrew visit on Tue, visit w/ Andrews on Wed and went on IR Thu.
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Not really. He wasn't actually placed on IR, even though they announced that. Clowney was inactive Sunday because he was still on the 53 man roster. There was another report that he is now officially on IR, but I can't find a reliable source to back that up.
 
TexansFight said:
Sean Pendergast eviscerates the incompetent Texans organization in this article. I am sick and tired of Bill O' Brien not giving us any information. That crap doesn't fly since he hasn't won jack **** and his offense has been boring and predictable.

"And quite frankly, when O'Brien prefaces his Clowney comments with a stonewall on any specifics about Clowney's injury and his upcoming surgery, Texans fans should be livid. They deserve to know exactly what is being done to remedy the issues with the number one overall draft pick's right knee, and they deserve to know exactly how we got here."

AMEN.

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/news/..._for_the_year_texans_fans_deserve_answers.php
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Boohoo. Sanctimonious reporters crying about OB just makes me laugh.
 
infantrycak said:
Give a little? Not even sure what that means in the context of this conversation. If you mean OB was essentially sitting around on the fence in his own mind and McNair and/or Smith expressed a strong opinion so OB said "let's go with that." Sure I think that could happen and is far more typical than all this "proper roles" and one person being guaranteed the pick discussions.

But that's not at all what was being discussed which was OB clearly wanting Bortles and McNair saying "no, take Clowney."
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Perhaps others, but it's certainly not what I was getting at.

You're assuming that the pick was "his" to use. If McNair came to him and said "I really like this kid from my Alma Mater, can we get someone later that'll work?", what do you think BoB's answer is going to be?
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Just like Kubiak telling McNair that he could make Carr "work", I suspect the Texans 2nd First-time NFL HC told his boss that he could "get someone later" if need be to allow the Clowney pick.
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Won't be mad at them for taking Clowney. I can see myself being mad because the entire draft was garbage except for Blue

If Clowney and Nix come back healthy, then it should at least be a salvageable draft.
 
disaacks3 said:
Already attached to Clowney emotionally works very well right there counselor.

QB was the need, everyone sees it - Does anyone really think that Savage was the 1st choice?

It's the "we're letting a first-time NFL HC completely have his way" storyline that just doesn't fly. Heck, we keep discussing if Rick Smith is a patsy and he's the GM.

So, you think Savage was O'brien's first choice as well??
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I guess I'm not everyone. The choice was trade down or Clowney. Simple as that.
 
disaacks3 said:
You didn't see QB as a high-priority need, or you saw nobody "worth" the 1-1 other than Clowney? Definitely two different things.
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Definitely both. I expected the two frontrunners to fall in the mid to late first. One went early and one late and both were probably reaches. There are a dozen players I would have taken over either including 4 tackles. I still think we had capable QB's in house. But there was too much baggage for a new coach.
 
thunderkyss said:
Oh I see... you really hated Kubiak.


Gotcha.
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Speaking for myself, turning the bottom of the roster over was a weakness of Kubiak's. In fact as I've said before Kubiak's greatest weakness was an undying loyalty to coaches/players who ultimately let him down.

This regime is a breath of fresh air in this regard.
 
Adm Schfter ‏@AdamSchefter 1m1 minute ago

Texans LB Jadeveon Clowney underwent microfracture knee surgery on Monday and is expected to be sidelined nine months, per sources.

rut roh
 
Texian said:
Adm Schfter ‏@AdamSchefter
Texans LB Jadeveon Clowney underwent microfracture knee surgery on Monday and is expected to be sidelined nine months, per sources.
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Wow, surprised he got it that fast.

That is the news, and I'll let Dr. CND lay out the probabilities and possibilities.

Let me just say there are questions to be asked. Questions we have posed here for some time now, getting assurances along the way.
 
The1ApplePie said:
Won't be mad at them for taking Clowney. I can see myself being mad because the entire draft was garbage except for Blue

If Clowney and Nix come back healthy, then it should at least be a salvageable draft.
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Maybe in September or October I would have agreed with you, but not now. The draft has been looking better. Specifically, X, Tuggle, and Fiedo.
 
thunderkyss said:
It's over...
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Well, if it is over it saves his Texans legacy. His hype will always be better than the actual play of any other player in that draft class.

Great job by the medical staff on this guy, both before and after the draft.
 
Microfracture for a guy who relies solely on his athleticism to be good?

I'm a Suns fan. I lived through Amare Stoudemire.

This isn't good. Clowney will never be the same player even if he gets back to 100% physically and he'll almost definitely have problems in the future. Once Amare came back he was still very good but entirely different. Not nearly as explosive.
 
TheMatrix31 said:
Microfracture for a guy who relies solely on his athleticism to be good?

I'm a Suns fan. I lived through Amare Stoudemire.

This isn't good. Clowney will never be the same player even if he gets back to 100% physically and he'll almost definitely have problems in the future. Once Amare came back he was still very good but entirely different. Not nearly as explosive.
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Not to mention the Suns probably have the best medical staff in all of sports. So many players who were injured constantly, go to Phoenix and play almost injury free (Grant Hill, Shaq, Redd, etc.). I don't know what kind of magic potions they use in the valley.

JB said:
Tuggle wasn't in the draft ...
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Still signed him afterwards..... They could have said this guy is no good, don't sign him.
 
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