I Luv The Guy, But Andre Is Done

[Runner]

There is a direct connection between "uncertainty about the future" and discontentment with his contract... His management team knows that he is at risk because he is on the back end of a contract with a high salary to cap hit ratio. He wanted a contract that would guarantee he receive those huge salaries for the next few years. He is right to address it, because his current and future value as a football player does not justify those numbers (which is the reason why he sought a remedy for it). Even Andre knows that he is currently overpaid, based on the market... funny that fans of the team can't see it.

I guess it depends on how you define market value. Sports franchises frequently pay their declining hall of fame caliber players more than their performance strictly warrants. It is a business decision.

You also have to look at replacement value. The Texans would have to use the money saved to replace Dre's very real, very important contributions to the team. I think that Rick Smith would screw it up. He'd blow the money and the Texans would have less talent to show for it.

As far as it being "funny that fans of the team can't see it". I always thought it was funny that fans couldn't see how absolutely mediocre and dead-end Smithiak was. I think it is far easier to believe that Dre has value to the team right now - even at his current salary - than it was to think right track, right track in response to year after year of little or no growth - even negative growth - for the team. Maybe if you reflect on that you can understand why fans have it so wrong about Dre Johnson right now. You might even consider which fans have it wrong, but that would take a much greater leap.

===================

As far as Dre goes, I was on record for having the Texans find a way to trade him this season. I wasn't tough enough of an armchair GM to say take the Texans millions or retire. He did take the millions, and now that is being complained about.

If they want to cut him next year, I'm good with that too. In that event, Dre will take a big pay cut but still probably pocket a few million, possibly with a contender. The Texans will save all that money. They will be worse off offensively, but that will also be Dre's fault for not just taking a pay cut with the Texans. Everybody wins!*


*Except for that uninformed minority that want the best product on the field, of course.

 

[dalemurphy]

Don't know why you mention the bolded unless it's a need to say you're right and everyone else is wrong. Even his staunchest supporters on here acknowledge he is overpaid this season and next for his performance this season and probably next. Most of the failure of his contract is the Texans own doing

The fact that they are on the back end of a deal just as an elite player like AJ is in decline and are in a power position to get out of the contract with a lot of savings is to their credit.

Only if the "McNair won't allow AJ to be cut or traded" theory plays out will the Texans have "failed by their own doing" in regards to AJ's contract.

I guess I have missed the abundance of supporters admit that his value on the field is less than his cost against the cap. I will stop arguing that points since we are all in agreement already. Sorry.

 

[JB]

The fact that they are on the back end of a deal just as an elite player like AJ is in decline and are in a power position to get out of the contract with a lot of savings is to their credit.

Only if the "McNair won't allow AJ to be cut or traded" theory plays out will the Texans have "failed by their own doing" in regards to AJ's contract.

I guess I have missed the abundance of supporters admit that his value on the field is less than his cost against the cap. I will stop arguing that points since we are all in agreement already. Sorry.

McNair is already on record as saying that AJ is a Texan for life


It was only your comment that fans of the team don't see him as overpaid that I took exception to. It seemed that you were implying most fans, and I don't agree that most knowledgeable fans think that

 

[dalemurphy]

McNair is already on record as saying that AJ is a Texan for life

He is also on record as saying that his goal is for the Texan organization to be consistent winners and managed like New England and Pittsburgh.

*So, he is going to have to reneg on one of those statements unless AJ changes course and is willing to take a pay cut or restructure into a cap friendly deal that will essentially end up being a pay cut.

 

[JB]

He is also on record as saying that his goal is for the Texan organization to be consistent winners and managed like New England and Pittsburgh.

*So, he is going to have to reneg on one of those statements unless AJ changes course and is willing to take a pay cut or restructure into a cap friendly deal that will essentially end up being a pay cut.

Hasn't AJ done that in the past?

 

[infantrycak]

He is also on record as saying that his goal is for the Texan organization to be consistent winners and managed like New England and Pittsburgh.

*So, he is going to have to reneg on one of those statements unless AJ changes course and is willing to take a pay cut or restructure into a cap friendly deal that will essentially end up being a pay cut.

So now anyone who disagrees with what you would do, doesn't have a goal of building a consistent winner. Wow, the hubris.

 

[dalemurphy]

So now anyone who disagrees with what you would do, doesn't have a goal of building a consistent winner. Wow, the hubris.

Huh? I'm simply asserting that the Patriots and Steelers don't grandfather clause veteran players on the back side of their career out of loyalty and despite significant cap ramifications. I don't think that is hubris.

 

[dalemurphy]

Hasn't AJ done that in the past?

He has restructured... I believe it was a conversion of salary to bonus money- accelerating money in his hand. A restructure of this contract in order to benefit the team would shift money backwards in years (He is due over $30 million in the next two seasons) and it would be money he would never see. With $31 million due in '15 and '16, the only way to significantly lower the cap hit is to add years to the contract, dramatically lower the salary in the front end and include a reasonable bonus spread out over a 4-5 year period. Doing that, the Texans would then face this same issue again (with a balloon payment due a 36 year old receiver). Both parties would know, agreeing to that deal, that AJ would never see most of that money.

 

[JB]

He has restructured... I believe it was a conversion of salary to bonus money- accelerating money in his hand. A restructure of this contract in order to benefit the team would shift money backwards in years (He is due over $30 million in the next two seasons) and it would be money he would never see. With $31 million due in '15 and '16, the only way to significantly lower the cap hit is to add years to the contract, dramatically lower the salary in the front end and include a reasonable bonus spread out over a 4-5 year period. Doing that, the Texans would then face this same issue again (with a balloon payment due a 36 year old receiver). Both parties would know, agreeing to that deal, that AJ would never see most of that money.

Thanks, but couldn't they add a couple years AND give a big signing bonus to lower cap hit and make AJ happy?

 

[dc_txtech]

I guess it depends on how you define market value. Sports franchises frequently pay their declining hall of fame caliber players more than their performance strictly warrants. It is a business decision.

You also have to look at replacement value. The Texans would have to use the money saved to replace Dre's very real, very important contributions to the team. I think that Rick Smith would screw it up. He'd blow the money and the Texans would have less talent to show for it.

As far as it being "funny that fans of the team can't see it". I always thought it was funny that fans couldn't see how absolutely mediocre and dead-end Smithiak was. I think it is far easier to believe that Dre has value to the team right now - even at his current salary - than it was to think right track, right track in response to year after year of little or no growth - even negative growth - for the team. Maybe if you reflect on that you can understand why fans have it so wrong about Dre Johnson right now. You might even consider which fans have it wrong, but that would take a much greater leap.

===================

As far as Dre goes, I was on record for having the Texans find a way to trade him this season. I wasn't tough enough of an armchair GM to say take the Texans millions or retire. He did take the millions, and now that is being complained about.

If they want to cut him next year, I'm good with that too. In that event, Dre will take a big pay cut but still probably pocket a few million, possibly with a contender. The Texans will save all that money. They will be worse off offensively, but that will also be Dre's fault for not just taking a pay cut with the Texans. Everybody wins!*


*Except for that uninformed minority that want the best product on the field, of course.

You sound more like Andre Johnson's agent than a Texans fan.

 

[infantrycak]

He has restructured... I believe it was a conversion of salary to bonus money- accelerating money in his hand. A restructure of this contract in order to benefit the team would shift money backwards in years (He is due over $30 million in the next two seasons) and it would be money he would never see. With $31 million due in '15 and '16, the only way to significantly lower the cap hit is to add years to the contract, dramatically lower the salary in the front end and include a reasonable bonus spread out over a 4-5 year period. Doing that, the Texans would then face this same issue again (with a balloon payment due a 36 year old receiver). Both parties would know, agreeing to that deal, that AJ would never see most of that money.

You are confusing cap and money to be paid in several spots. AJ is not going to be paid 30 mil over the next two years - that's his cap hit. His payments will be about 8 mil less. Almost all of that differential only exists due to restructures done at team request for their benefit. And they were to AJ's detriment exactly because of this conversation which would have a whole different complexion if the question was is AJ overpaid at 12 mil instead of 16. What was said during those discussions absolutely should be considered in decisions now.

Also, it is entirely possible to extend AJ without creating some heinous back end. It could be perfectly flat or decreasing cap hits if desired.

 

[JB]

You are confusing cap and money to be paid in several spots. AJ is not going to be paid 30 mil over the next two years - that's his cap hit. His payments will be about 8 mil less. Almost all of that differential only exists due to restructures done at team request for their benefit. And they were to AJ's detriment exactly because of this conversation which would have a whole different complexion if the question was is AJ overpaid at 12 mil instead of 16. What was said during those discussions absolutely should be considered in decisions now.

Also, it is entirely possible to extend AJ without creating some heinous back end. It could be perfectly flat or decreasing cap hits if desired.

Thanks, I was thinking they could do something like this to make both parties happy.

 

[dalemurphy]

Also, it is entirely possible to extend AJ without creating some heinous back end. It could be perfectly flat or decreasing cap hits if desired.

Explain how that could be done? There is only two years left on the deal... He is owed about $24 million in salary. There is nowhere to spread it. If they created a 4 or 5 year contract, then they could create some savings with another signing bonus and moving most of the salary $ to the later years... Like I said, though, all parties would know that the Texans would not honor those final years...

but, I would love an example of how you think it could be done.

 

[Runner]

You sound more like Andre Johnson's agent than a Texans fan.

Screw Andre Johnson! Cut his worthless ass as soon as this season ends! Let him go play for the Raiders and see how he likes it!

Do I sound enough like a "Texans fan" for you now?

 

[thunderkyss]

If they want to cut him next year, I'm good with that too.

There's gotta be a few caveats for me. If they offered him a good faith deal & he declined, then I can understand. If he's staunch & adamant about getting all $23M.... then that's on Andre & I hope everything works out for him.

But I hate that this has become such a cut-throat business that Emitt Smith didn't retire only ever being a Cowboy, but we'll spend $5M on a Kevin Walter & $3M on a Jacoby Jones.

I understand the franchise tag, but I don't believe that addresses this situation. There needs to be some kind of legacy exception where we can make one player's salary exempt if he's got 8+ years with an organization... even if you can only use it once every five years or so.

 

[thunderkyss]

adding heinous back end salaries would just be to inflate the value of the contract. Like you said it might be done, knowing he won't ever see that money.

Explain how that could be done? There is only two years left on the deal... He is owed about $24 million in salary. There is nowhere to spread it. If they created a 4 or 5 year contract, then they could create some savings with another signing bonus and moving most of the salary $ to the later years... Like I said, though, all parties would know that the Texans would not honor those final years...

but, I would love an example of how you think it could be done.

If they extend him to a 5 year contract that would be $5M + salary + old money = cap hit. He would have to have low "vet min" salary (which Infantrycak thought was funny last time I suggested it)... but that would guarantee the $24M on his contract now.

I don't see a reason for Andre to play that third year as it would be essentially for free. But since there is no old money to figure into that third year, we can increase his salary to $3M (I think according to acceleration rules) & add a $1M roster bonus to bring his cap hit for that year to $9M or so. If he were to retire that third year, we would take a $15M hit.

Essentially, that would be cutting him down from a $10M/yr player to $6M/yr.


All that said, I don't think he should expect to get all $24M that is on his contract. I would bring that down to ~$18M to make it an $8M hit when he does retire three years from now.

 

[infantrycak]

TK you're over complicating and making Dale's point.

AJ has zero guaranteed money left, what players care most about. That and for Brady/AJ type players, being told to retire before they want because they aren't in their prime anymore.

There's several ways to do what I said. The simplest to illustrate is:

New 4 year contract, with base salaries of 8, 8, 8 and 8 fully guaranteed ($32 mil). With the legacy of past restructures (which you are sucking up no matter what) you have cap hits of 12, 11, 8 and 8.

 

[Runner]

I understand the franchise tag, but I don't believe that addresses this situation. There needs to be some kind of legacy exception where we can make one player's salary exempt if he's got 8+ years with an organization... even if you can only use it once every five years or so.

I've heard ideas like this floated before. It makes a lot of sense as long as there are safeguards against using it on a regular basis as a salary cap extension.

 

[Troy Chapman]

I am just spit balling here off the top of my head but here's my take at an extension after the 2014 season.

Currently on contract through 2016 with a total salary of $21.5, and $2m of roster bonus. Cap hits of $16.1m & $14.6m respectively. So if he plays it out he gets $23.5m.

Propose a 3 year extension with a $12m signing bonus as follows, and adjusting salaries.

2015: $2m base salary, $1m work out roster bonus. Cap hit $10.04m. Salary is guaranteed 5 days after signing contract.
2016: $4m base salary, $1m work out roster bonus. Capt hit $10.075m. Salary is guaranteed for injury only.
2017: $8m base salary, $5m roster bonus due 5th day of league year. Cap hit $15.4m
2018: $10m base salary. Cap hit $12.4m.
2019: $10m base salary. Cap hit $12.4m.

The new deal provides Johnson in $15 million guaranteed on the front end, with additional $11 million in additional earned guarantees & salary. Likely earning $20 million in 2 years that is essentially guaranteed. Compared to his un-guaranteed $23.5 million in the old deal.

Team takes insurance out on him to recoup 25% SB money if more than 50% of season missed.

 

[thunderkyss]

I am just spit balling here off the top of my head but here's my take at an extension after the 2014 season.

Currently on contract through 2016 with a total salary of $21.5, and $2m of roster bonus. Cap hits of $16.1m & $14.6m respectively. So if he plays it out he gets $23.5m.

Propose a 3 year extension with a $12m signing bonus as follows, and adjusting salaries.

2015: $2m base salary, $1m work out roster bonus. Cap hit $10.04m. Salary is guaranteed 5 days after signing contract.
2016: $4m base salary, $1m work out roster bonus. Capt hit $10.075m. Salary is guaranteed for injury only.
2017: $8m base salary, $5m roster bonus due 5th day of league year. Cap hit $15.4m
2018: $10m base salary. Cap hit $12.4m.
2019: $10m base salary. Cap hit $12.4m.

The new deal provides Johnson in $15 million guaranteed on the front end, with additional $11 million in additional earned guarantees & salary. Likely earning $20 million in 2 years that is essentially guaranteed. Compared to his un-guaranteed $23.5 million in the old deal.

Team takes insurance out on him to recoup 25% SB money if more than 50% of season missed.

I like that. That looks pretty good. A little more cap hit than I want for 2015 & 2016 but not much... I could live with it.

 

[Troy Chapman]

I like that. That looks pretty good. A little more cap hit than I want for 2015 & 2016 but not much... I could live with it.

Thanks, I tried to lower it but keep it close to market value; give the player some assurance but give the team an out after 2016. It is essentially a 2 year deal $20m deal, with a 3rd year team option for additional $13m. It's a lot of new money over the 3 years, with a good amount of money up front....but lowering the team's cap commitment by $6m and $4m in 2015 & 2016 respectively.

The team could release after the 2016 season before the 2017 roster bonus kicks in for relatively small dead money ($7.2m).

Or you could easily take Cak's method of just straight up salary guarantees and really limit the dead money. Just not sure Johnson would go that route because it doesn't provide initial guaranteed money.

 

[infantrycak]

Or you could easily take Cak's method of just straight up salary guarantees and really limit the dead money. Just not sure Johnson would go that route because it doesn't provide initial guaranteed money.

I think the overall guarantee would be attractive but you could give him an up front payment by (I'll make TK happy here) going vet min the 1st season and the remainder of the 1st year's 8 mil as a roster bonus the day after signing. Cap hits would remain the same

 

[thunderkyss]

Thanks, I tried to lower it but keep it close to market value; give the player some assurance but give the team an out after 2016.

I think the overall guarantee would be attractive but...

& the point, the thing we're all trying to say is that there are ways they can make it work. Being overly anxious about it at this point is a waste of good koolaid time.

 

[Troy Chapman]

I think the overall guarantee would be attractive but you could give him an up front payment by (I'll make TK happy here) going vet min the 1st season and the remainder of the 1st year's 8 mil as a roster bonus the day after signing. Cap hits would remain the same

Yep there are definitely multiple ways to go about this.

 

[steelbtexan]

TK you're over complicating and making Dale's point.

AJ has zero guaranteed money left, what players care most about. That and for Brady/AJ type players, being told to retire before they want because they aren't in their prime anymore.

There's several ways to do what I said. The simplest to illustrate is:

New 4 year contract, with base salaries of 8, 8, 8 and 8 fully guaranteed ($32 mil). With the legacy of past restructures (which you are sucking up no matter what) you have cap hits of 12, 11, 8 and 8.

I would cut AJ before I extended him on that deal. This comes down to for me is Smith going to pay AJ to be a legacy player for the next 2 yrs? He certainly isn't worth 24 mil/ But is still a very good WR.

Or is Smith going to take a more team 1st approach and cut AJ, so the Texans can become a player in FA. Remember that if Mallett plays well over the last 7 games then re-signing him is priority #1 and that $$$$ has to come from somewhere.

My gut tells me that McNair tells Smith to make AJ a legacy player and either 1 or both KJ/JoJo are gone to make room for Mallett's contract extention. If Mallett performs like we hope he does.

 

[gary]

I hope Andre will stay and restructure again.

 

[infantrycak]

Or is Smith going to take a more team 1st approach and cut AJ, so the Texans can become a player in FA.

Some people don't agree that cutting AJ is the only team 1st option.

And I could give a damn about "playing" in free agency. Some of y'all are like shopaholic chicks just shopping to shop. The combo of the moves needs to improve the team. Free agency and the draft aren't games to themselves.

 

[thunderkyss]

I would cut AJ before I extended him on that deal. This comes down to for me is Smith going to pay AJ to be a legacy player for the next 2 yrs? He certainly isn't worth 24 mil/ But is still a very good WR.

I'm still not convinced he isn't worth $24M over three years. If he doesn't extend his per catch average over the next 6 games, then maybe I'll start to believe that.

 

[steelbtexan]

Some people don't agree that cutting AJ is the only team 1st option.

And I could give a damn about "playing" in free agency. Some of y'all are like shopaholic chicks just shopping to shop. The combo of the moves needs to improve the team. Free agency and the draft aren't games to themselves.

I get what you're saying. We just disagree. Hopefully with Mallett at QB AJ will be able to return to a top level WR again. But if Montana/Rice, Emmitt don't get to retire as a 49er/Cowboys then I put AJ in the same line as them. Bottom line is if AJ wants to remain with the Texans he will have to take a paycut. If he wants all of his $$$$, he's gotta go.

 

[badboy]

I see no need to do anything. The '15 and '16 are not guaranteed and we already have space + mechanism (Watt's '15 can be converted to bonus)ifwe need it. I say let AJ play his best with a decent QB and earn his $. He is averaging 5.5 catches/game and that should increase with Mallett as could his avg/catch of 11.5; on pace now for another 400 yds to get 1,000. He could easily get 14-1500 and no one should argue salary. 2013 he had 1407 13.9; go play, Andre.

 

[steelbtexan]

I see no need to do anything. The '15 and '16 are not guaranteed and we already have space + mechanism (Watt's '15 can be converted to bonus)ifwe need it. I say let AJ play his best with a decent QB and earn his $. He is averaging 5.5 catches/game and that should increase with Mallett as could his avg/catch of 11.5; on pace now for another 400 yds to get 1,000. He could easily get 14-1500 and no one should argue salary. 2013 he had 1407 13.9; go play, Andre.

^^^^
This

 

[Troy Chapman]

I see no need to do anything. The '15 and '16 are not guaranteed and we already have space + mechanism (Watt's '15 can be converted to bonus)ifwe need it. I say let AJ play his best with a decent QB and earn his $. He is averaging 5.5 catches/game and that should increase with Mallett as could his avg/catch of 11.5; on pace now for another 400 yds to get 1,000. He could easily get 14-1500 and no one should argue salary. 2013 he had 1407 13.9; go play, Andre.

If he can get those numbers, than I am fine with his pay. But I just don't think he will get those numbers, even if Mallett plays well.

 

[badboy]

If he can get those numbers, than I am fine with his pay. But I just don't think he will get those numbers, even if Mallett plays well.

I think he could get 125-150 each against Titans and Jacksonville.

 

[Troy Chapman]

I think he could get 125-150 each against Titans and Jacksonville.

Could..yes....but I think Hopkins is going to continue with great numbers; especially if teams continue to put their #1 CB on Johnson (like Cleveland did with Haden). If Mallett continues his spread of passing, and TE's get involved...only so much to go around.

Goes back to the notion that Johnson should be on this team in 2015. If Hopkins continues his progress...teams will have to decide which side of the field the safety will shade and who the #1 CB goes against. Could be looking at a Roddy White/Julio Jones situation.

 

[Runner]

Or is Smith going to take a more team 1st approach and cut AJ, so the Texans can become a player in FA. Remember that if Mallett plays well over the last 7 games then re-signing him is priority #1 and that $$$$ has to come from somewhere.

Such short memories. It took many, many years and many, many failed attempts for the Texans to finally get a legitimate #2 receiver to go with Dre. Now that the Texans have two top flight receivers, some fans want to cut one of them so Rick can be a player in free agency to replace him. Let's see how Hopkins looks with the next Eric Moulds opposite him rather than Andre.

Does anyone remember "next man up" and "the backups are better than the starters" rationale? It was used to explain why cutting the right side of the oline and various linebackers and other starters/contributors during the great purge wouldn't hurt the team. Lack of depth and a drop-off in performance soon led to 2-14. "Lets replace Andre Johnson via free agency" has about the same ring to it.

Cutting Andre without a viable replacement is a money first approach, not a team-winning first approach.

 

[thunderkyss]

Could..yes....but I think Hopkins is going to continue with great numbers; especially if teams continue to put their #1 CB on Johnson (like Cleveland did with Haden). If Mallett continues his spread of passing, and TE's get involved...only so much to go around.

Goes back to the notion that Johnson should be on this team in 2015. If Hopkins continues his progress...teams will have to decide which side of the field the safety will shade and who the #1 CB goes against. Could be looking at a Roddy White/Julio Jones situation.

I don't think we're expecting Hop's numbers to go down.... they'll each be getting 5+ catches a game, it's just where they'll be on the field when they get those catches that'll be different as we go further with a QB as aggressive as Mallet has been.

Look at his averages this season...

Washington....... 15.5 yards
Oakland............ 12.3 yards
New York.......... 6 yards
Buffalo ............. 11.8 yards
Dallas .............. 11.6 yards
Indianapolis....... 14.1 yards
Pittsburgh.......... 15.4 yards
Tennessee.......... 7.9 yards
Philladelphia....... 6.0 yards
Cleveland.......... 9.7 yards

& this is without a guy who can put it over his shoulder.

 

[JB]

Such short memories. It took many, many years and many, many failed attempts for the Texans to finally get a legitimate #2 receiver to go with Dre. Now that the Texans have two top flight receivers, some fans want to cut one of them so Rick can be a player in free agency to replace him. Let's see how Hopkins looks with the next Eric Moulds opposite him rather than Andre.

Does anyone remember "next man up" and "the backups are better than the starters" rational? It was used to explain why cutting the right side of the oline and various linebackers and other starters/contributors during the great purge wouldn't hurt the team. Lack of depth and a drop-off in performance soon led to 2-14. "Lets replace Andre Johnson via free agency" has about the same ring to it.

Cutting Andre without a viable replacement is a money first approach, not a team-winning first approach.

I remember vividly!

Repped for a rational rationale

 

[xtruroyaltyx]

I know this thread isn't about this, but the McClain just said he thinks dre will get in the hall. I know it's been discussed before, but I rhought it was worth mentioning since McClain is a voter, politics for guys, and is in the "know" with other voters

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[badboy]

Could..yes....but I think Hopkins is going to continue with great numbers; especially if teams continue to put their #1 CB on Johnson (like Cleveland did with Haden). If Mallett continues his spread of passing, and TE's get involved...only so much to go around.

Goes back to the notion that Johnson should be on this team in 2015. If Hopkins continues his progress...teams will have to decide which side of the field the safety will shade and who the #1 CB goes against. Could be looking at a Roddy White/Julio Jones situation.

Not only WRs but if Fiedo gets confident, he opens a huge option for Mallett and with a reception or three + ability of Foster to catch out of backfield, it will keep defense honest opening WRs to stretch field.

 

[dc_txtech]

Screw Andre Johnson! Cut his worthless ass as soon as this season ends! Let him go play for the Raiders and see how he likes it!

Do I sound enough like a "Texans fan" for you now?

I never said cut him. You're the one on record that you wanted him traded before the season started. I wanted him on our team at his current price.

It's all about salary cap, is he worth what he's going to get paid. For such a smart guy, you never seem to mention the cap.

 

[Runner]

I never said cut him. You're the one on record that you wanted him traded before the season started. I wanted him on our team at his current price.

It's all about salary cap, is he worth what he's going to get paid. For such a smart guy, you never seem to mention the cap.

Where did I say that you said to cut him?

I do consider the cap. I just don't spell it out every few sentences. I think Andre's replacement value is close to what he is getting paid, so cutting him and "saving" the money probably makes the team worse in talent. The Texans can work the cap; it isn't like keeping Andre is going to force them to cut better players than him next year.

Said another way: I think the Texans + Andre + his cap hit = a team under the cap at a certain level of talent. I think the Texans - Andre - his cap hit + "reinvesting" the cap savings in other players = a team under the cap at a less level of talent.

I'll take the team under the cap with more talent.

 

[JB]

Where did I say that you said to cut him?

I do consider the cap. I just don't spell it out every few sentences. I think Andre's replacement value is close to what he is getting paid, so cutting him and "saving" the money probably makes the team worse in talent. The Texans can work the cap; it isn't like keeping Andre is going to force them to cut better players than him next year.

Said another way: I think the Texans + Andre + his cap hit = a team under the cap at a certain level of talent. I think the Texans - Andre - his cap hit + "reinvesting" the cap savings in other players = a team under the cap at a less level of talent.

I'll take the team under the cap with more talent.

Just piggybacking off your post...

Isn't the cap supposed to go up significantly next year? The way it is now with no increase we should be able to retain not only AJ but KJ and probably everyone else we want to retain

edit... found the article I was thinking of

One source with knowledge of the process (but not the same source who was on the money - pun lame but intended - when providing info about the 2014 cap) tells PFT that the cap could spike to $145 million in 2015 and a whopping $160 million in 2016.

link

 

[Runner]

Just piggybacking off your post...

Isn't the cap supposed to go up significantly next year? The way it is now with no increase we should be able to retain not only AJ but KJ and probably everyone else we want to retain

edit... found the article I was thinking of



llink

I don't think being under the cap is really the point. I'm not sure how much at risk the Texans were to being over the cap next year anyway. Frankly, given the wildly different numbers various people are reporting that Andre's cap hit will be, I don't think many of our cap experts have a good grip on that risk either.

Andre's production has slipped some. The idea was floated that he isn't worth what his contract says to pay him. Something must be done! I believe the idiom is to "cut off your nose to spite your face".

 

[JB]

I don't think being under the cap is really the point. I'm not sure how much at risk the Texans were to being over the cap next year anyway. Frankly, given the wildly different numbers various people are reporting that Andre's cap hit will be, I don't think many of our cap experts have a good grip on that risk either.

Andre's production has slipped some. The idea was floated that he isn't worth what his contract says to pay him. Something must be done! I believe the idiom is to "cut off your nose to spite your face".

ohh, I gotcha! The old "lets make a move to make a move" ploy

I think AJ came into the season disheartened and didn't play with the domination we expect him to have. Of course that could have been a combination of rust and missing the entire off season to learn the new system so sure he was behind. I've never questioned his heart and will to win tho. And it's understandable that being in a new system not designed for him to be the primary playmaker that he won't put up the numbers that he did under Kubiak

 

[steelbtexan]

Such short memories. It took many, many years and many, many failed attempts for the Texans to finally get a legitimate #2 receiver to go with Dre. Now that the Texans have two top flight receivers, some fans want to cut one of them so Rick can be a player in free agency to replace him. Let's see how Hopkins looks with the next Eric Moulds opposite him rather than Andre.

Does anyone remember "next man up" and "the backups are better than the starters" rational? It was used to explain why cutting the right side of the oline and various linebackers and other starters/contributors during the great purge wouldn't hurt the team. Lack of depth and a drop-off in performance soon led to 2-14. "Lets replace Andre Johnson via free agency" has about the same ring to it.

Cutting Andre without a viable replacement is a money first approach, not a team-winning first approach.

Deonte Parker would be my #1 pick for the Texans this yr.

 

[JB]

Deonte Parker would be my #1 pick for the Texans this yr.

Speed!!!

 

[steelbtexan]

Where did I say that you said to cut him?

I do consider the cap. I just don't spell it out every few sentences. I think Andre's replacement value is close to what he is getting paid, so cutting him and "saving" the money probably makes the team worse in talent. The Texans can work the cap; it isn't like keeping Andre is going to force them to cut better players than him next year.

Said another way: I think the Texans + Andre + his cap hit = a team under the cap at a certain level of talent. I think the Texans - Andre - his cap hit + "reinvesting" the cap savings in other players = a team under the cap at a less level of talent.

I'll take the team under the cap with more talent.

With Rick Smith as GM I can understand this feeling.

Don't agree with that feeling. But I understand.

 

[JB]

Deonte Parker would be my #1 pick for the Texans this yr.

oops, did you mean DeVante Parker from Louisville? Is he the very fast slot wr you were talking about?

 

[thunderkyss]

edit... found the article I was thinking of

One source with knowledge of the process (but not the same source who was on the money - pun lame but intended - when providing info about the 2014 cap) tells PFT that the cap could spike to $145 million in 2015 and a whopping $160 million in 2016.

link

good stuff. I use OTc, they're estimating $140M which gives us about $12M to work with. If we carry over $2M & the number is actually $145, then we'll have closer to $19M to start.

 

[EllisUnit]

Could..yes....but I think Hopkins is going to continue with great numbers; especially if teams continue to put their #1 CB on Johnson (like Cleveland did with Haden). If Mallett continues his spread of passing, and TE's get involved...only so much to go around.

Goes back to the notion that Johnson should be on this team in 2015. If Hopkins continues his progress...teams will have to decide which side of the field the safety will shade and who the #1 CB goes against. Could be looking at a Roddy White/Julio Jones situation.

Teams still pay AJ a lot of attention, teams usually have 2 guys on AJ at all times. If not for that Hopkins might not look as good as he has.