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I Luv The Guy, But Andre Is Done
- Thread starter thetexanator
- Start date
Yeah but that's not likely unless he decides to hold for big money
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Big money would be chump change compared to AJs cap number since we are on the back end of AJs contract... Of course, among the options possible would be to extend and restructure AJ's deal... However, based on the contract issues earlier this year, I don't expect a helpful deal for the texans to be worked out... But, we will see.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I don't care what he did last season. We're not talking about last season. We're talking about this season and the future. He isn't an elite receiver and no one thinks that other than some homer Texans fans. You don't pay guys that aren't elite what AJ is going to get on his contract. NOT EVEN CLOSE.
You guys want to build a SB winning team or do you want to just watch AJ every Sunday?If you're a Texans fan for the team, then you should want the team to get better, and they'll be in a very limited capacity to do that with a contract like that on their books for an aging receiver. AJ is going to have to restructure his deal or he is likely cut after this season which is what he has wanted any way. Either way, he'll retire as a Texan one day no matter what happens.
I hope so, but it never seems to work out that way...
In any case, I think McNair is committed to AJ as his first to retire and enter the HOF as a Texan
I wouldn't count on that if he's cut
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Well the next time you start calling threads stupid and calling for them to be deleted, then bring some substance and have the audacity to illustrate your claims. The only thing you've said this entire time is that AJ is still an elite receiver because you say so despite the evidence that says otherwise. You have failed to bring anything to the table.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Why?? Because it might upset him? Did you forget that he just begged for that for like two months in this off season? You don't remember him holding out and trying to force the team's hand? Where is going to retire then? St. Louis? THe Jags? He isn't going to have a choice. The Texans won't be able to trade him in the off season after a big drop off in stats and he'll be a year older where guys his age drop off tremendously in one off season. No team in their right mind would take his contract last off season, they'd laugh at the thought of it in this up coming off season. If he doesn't want to restructure he'll be cut to where he'll have to resign here for less any way or resign with whatever team he wants under a market that isn't going to pay him that well due to his age. I think you guys are completely down playing what happens to guys at this age of their careers. One year they're still looking really good, and then they lose it really fast. Some guys hang on longer, but he is at that age where he is on the decline and it is slowly showing. Reggie Wayne is having the same issues now as well. I don't hear any of you guys arguing this same stuff about Wayne still being Elite though. He isn't a Houston Texan. I'm sure there are some Colts fans that have those delusions though.
It is what it is... McNair wouldn't be the first owner that told his FO to make it work whatever...
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
A lot of the fans on this board are not that thirsty for a SB honestly. They wanted Kubiak here forever. Hell, they still want Kubiak here. They threw fits when Demeco was traded even though he didn't fit Wade's system well and he was over paid for what he was going to produce in it. Mcnair just might be soft enough to do something stupid like that, but even Rick Smith would probably be smart enough to convince him otherwise, and I'm damn sure that OB will. A lot of the fans in Houston want this "feel good" sensation over a winning team because they feel like it's the "classy" way to be a fan. The rest of us are dying to win a SB. We're starving for it, and no player is going to be above the team especially when they're due to make 10 MIllion plus.
I agree with everything you said above Dale.
Showtime100
Got JJ?
Check back for the post in a couple days. I think the Mods are waiting for a new shipment of cuss word asterisks. Matrix hogged them all this week.
**********
Just my
to make this post worthy of the pencil used, I thought Andre got better and more into it as the game wore on.Me thinks he's happy about the QB development.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
That is the point! Of course McNair would be inclined to keep AJ around to the end. However, would he override his football guys-risk alienating them over the issue? I can't believe he would do that... Nor do I believe that OB will offer less than his genuine assessment of each member of the roster... But, I have been wrong before.
I was a huge Kubiak fan, but I still understood that firing him after 2010 was justified... And was convinced it would take a miracle to win a championship by December of 2012... But I could still root for him while acknowledging his limitations. Why can't we root for AJ while acknowledging his limitations as well? I don't understand the anger and refusal to admit that he has lost his jets.
Wait a minute... you just said it could work if they extend, restructure, or if Aj takes a pay cut. JB isn't saying that Andre will be a $17M cap hit next season. Only that McNair has committed to keeping Andre on the team.... which may or may not be true.
Would have been nice to have Demeco fill in after Cushing went down in the two years Cushing got hurt. He'd have earned every bit of that money & we probably wouldn't have extended Cushing so early.
I think everyone is pretty honest on Andre's explosiveness.... we just don't agree how limited his limitations make him.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
AJ has to agree to a reduction of pay, in essence, which I do not have the impression he will do based on this summer's events. I thought the Demeco trade was a good one for Houston. The failure was not the trade but successfully replacing him via draft or free agency.
That's neither here nor there. Have to wait to see how it plays out.
But it is possible for McNair to do what he needs to do to keep Aj on this team & be serious about winning a super Bowl.
Cutting him does not guarantee we'll get any closer.... same as trading Demeco did not make our defense any better.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
They don't play the same position, and Demeco is a completely different type of LB than Cushing style wise. Demeco simply didn't perform like a grew player in Wade's defense. I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
You don't pay receivers that kind of money unless they are guys like Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, or a bonafied top 5 guy. And even then, it holds your team back from signing other players so that guy has to be a freaking animal which AJ is not anymore. He can still play, and he is still good. I'd love to keep him on this team, but no way at that price.
I'm talking about the position Demeco was playing before Cushing was playing it. Y'know, before Demeco tore his Achilles.
Go back & read my post, then tell me how much I suggested we pay Andre.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
It's mind boggling actually. These guys are just players on a team you root for. Fans get to the point where they start to think that AJ is their dad or husband or something the way they deny reality. Oh well, there is no way they can justify paying him what his contract gives him next season. It simply isn't feasible if you actually expect OB to build the team that he is trying to build here.
This is exactly why laugh at some of these guys when they say this stuff and then ***** and moan about the new HC's decisions or where he is taking this team. They want him to improve it and get all of these wins, but then they want to root for Mcnair to handicap him and disable him from doing that by paying AJ over 10 mill a year at this stage of his career. Through the double digit pages of this thread I've yet to hear one statistical argument that shows that AJ is still elite or that he is deserving of what his contract will pay him next season.
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
I think our game plan is to always run the ball, a lot. But now we have a QB that can make them pay if they crowd the line to much.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
Ellis Johnson here, i agree with Thorn Johnson, that Mallet Johnson can get the job done
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
AJ has "ONE" TD this season and not even one game over 100 yards this season, so anyone continuing to say that looks foolish at this point. I don't have to say anything. His stats and his lack of separation all season says it for me.
But you guys need to stop completely on criticizing the new HC from this point forward and stop acting as if you are rooting for the team in the future if keeping AJ here is the most important thing to you despite how much his contract demands. Get off the coach's case and don't criticize Clowney or Nix or any other player moving forward if they aren't working hard enough since a ton of you are perfectly fine with AJ not giving his all anymore as you and several others put it.
If Mallett looks like a very solid to near elite QB, I bet Andre would consider restructuring. Although AJ has the upper hand with such a huge contract, he wins whether he is kept or cut financially. (I can't remember the garunteed money)
I don't think anyone has said that he deserves to be here under her current contract/I]
Why is it impossible to restructure his deal and keep him here and improve at the same time?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Or you look foolish defining a player who odds are goes to the hall by stats from a guy noone who doesn't wear maroon will ever remember.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
You may need to go back and read this entire thread all over again then, because that is exactly what half of the people in this thread have said amongst other things. I have heard that "AJ is still elite", "AJ is going nowhere", "It is all Fitz's fault", "I don't blame AJ for not having his heart in it." I mean you name it. Hell, I thought this was a place with die hard fans, but now all of a sudden many in here view AJ to be above the team and don't care if he is even playing hard. I've brought up his contract this entire time, and yet no one seems to even want to address it at all in their wild claims about how AJ is still top 10 or still elite.
To address the idea of being able to restructure his contract, well sure we can do that. That is exactly what I want. Like you JB, I want AJ to retire here. I really do. I don't think he is done. I just realize that he isn't the same guy that he was 3 years ago. Last year he wasn't either, but he could still move well enough to be great even as a possession receiver. YES, we can do that, but it will be ultimately up to AJ as to what he will accept. My guess is that he will test the market and see what teams will offer him. I'm sure that he'll go after a top contender if they pay him well enough. If Mallet can really tear it up though, that will increase our chances a lot towards negotiations.
How does he win if he's cut? How does he have the upper hand?
The guaranteed money is gone. If we cut him, he's not going to get a $10M salary from anyone.
He's got a $16M cap number next year & that's the problem. We can cut him & save $8M on next year's cap, $14M on 2016's cap.
To me, Andre has to understand he's not going to get $21M over the next two years, which is his salary. We can & I think we should extend his current deal 5 years. I don't expect him to play for 5 years any more than the Patriots expect Brady to play till he's 40. That's just to allow us to prorate his bonus over the max (5 years) allowed. & I wouldn't give him $21M..... probably $12M or $15M,
then his cap for 2015 would be $4M (old extension) + $2M(new extension if we give him $12M)= $6M + Vet min. & we'll save the same $8M in cap space as we would if we cut him. (the numbers aren't exact, but close enough to get the idea).
2016 his cap would be $2M(old extension) + $2M (new extension) + $1M roster bonus = $5M + Vet min
2017 his cap would be $2M + roster bonus + salary (should still be vet min)
Then we can cut him or he can retire after three years with only $4M of dead money.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Lol at vet min.
I'm happy as long as his cap number is well below $10M. My numbers are as extreme as anyone could expect it to get & probably not realistic. However, I don't think anyone else will give him a $12~$15M signing bonus. I would... so vet min shouldn't really be a sticky issue.
But it's not like I have any experience negotiating million dollar deals or anything.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
You are not really saying anything here Cak, and you are totally skirting the issue at hand. AJ going to the HOF has nothing to do with squat. Whether he goes down as the best receiver of all time has nothing to do with anything. What matters is how well AJ can play and contribute to this team after this season. THAT is what MATTERS. And based on what he has shown this season, he won't be worth anywhere near what we will have to pay him. Players decline once they get close to their mid 30's. It happens. We all knew it would start to happen with AJ one of these days, and he is still good, but either address the core issue or stop bringing up HOF speculation when it has nothing to do with whether or not AJ is still worth the contract he is under by next year.
Well I think this thread has gotten so convoluted that no one knows what we're arguing any more.
I think Andre's diminishing skills have been greatly over exaggerated.
I think Andre's importance to this offense has been greatly understated.
I don't think we'll be paying Andre Johnson a $10M salary in 2015.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
It really hasn't though. It only has for those who want to claim that AJ is elite and all of these other things still. I've asked and asked for people to create some sort of statistical breakdown for their arguments or some sort of footage that would validate this rhetoric, but I've heard literally nothing. On the flip side, I have posted stats that no one even attempts to address. It has been like 20 pages now of "AJ is still one of the best WR"s because I say so" arguments or people bringing up HOF speculation and other attempts like that to deviate from the real issues that this thread is about.
Well I don't believe this year's stats tell us anything. The offense we've been playing with... run on first, run on second, throw on third & long... Show me the last thousand yard receiver who had Fitz chucking him the ball for 9 games?
& while Hop may have better yards than Andre, he's still on the field with Andre & if you can't see Aj getting the lion's share of the coverage, I don't know what to tell you.
But... I didn't think Ty Hilton was going to do crap without Reggie Wayne last year either, so what do I know.
Even if Andre was as good as I think he is, I still don't think he's worth a $16M cap hit, so we agree there. But I bet he'll double his numbers from here on out. he'll finish the season with 110 catches & 1260 yards, & 2 TDs. That'll tell me the guy ain't done.
You might as well just do this, Tex.
I've read close to 10 different posts from you, explaining in 10 different ways, that what you've done in the past should not matter, or going to the HOF should not matter, it's what you're doing lately is all that should matter. Just give it up, man. Blind loyalty to the sacred cow is all that matters around here.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Check back for the post in a couple days. I think the Mods are waiting for a new shipment of cuss word asterisks. Matrix hogged them all this week.
**********
Just my
Me thinks he's happy about the QB development.
Total YAC? 0, including a waist high strike on a wide open slant when AJ's legs simply went limp and he crumbled to the ground.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
AJ to this point in the season is not the AJ from the past two seasons. Anyone who can't/won't admit that is delusional. He isn't a washed up scrub either. He is on pace for a 90/1000 season. I'm going to see how these next six games go with Mallett before I opine if it was AJ or Fitz.
amazing80
Hall of Fame
I don't understand what you're deal is. No one is arguing whether he should make that much money. We all agree he is over paid. The difference is some of us feel we can lower his salary and keep him because an 80% AJ is still really good.
That sounds reasonable.
Go back and re-read some of your earlier postings in this thread, and you'll see for yourself how disingenuous that sounded.
What if he doesn't agree to take a pay cut?
Then that's on him. All I want is for the Texans to do what's right by Aj in the best interest of the team.
If we saw Posey on the field tearing it up with Aj, then I could understand the dump Andre talk. But this team isn't as bad as some would have you believe & we've got a shot to get to the play offs & maybe even a good run. This year & next, with Aj. Doesn't make sense to be talking about straight up cutting him.
Especially when we've historically not gone after high dollar FAs, or having much success with the FAs we do go after.
Can we have a quick show of hands here? How many people are in both of these groups:
1) During preseason when it appeared Dre wanted out, you were adamant he was under contract to the Texans and should take their millions or retire. Cutting/trading him was unacceptable for the team.
2) At this point in the season you think Dre should be cut or take a serious salary reduction to stay with the Texans next year. Keeping him as is is unacceptable to the team.
If so, what has changed? If it is just performance, I think it was reasonable to assume during preseason that age would continue to take its toll and he might not have the same killer attitude he had brought to previous seasons. I'm other words, I think the Texans have the exact Andre Johnson many fans were hell bent on keeping when he expressed a desire to move on.
1) During preseason when it appeared Dre wanted out, you were adamant he was under contract to the Texans and should take their millions or retire. Cutting/trading him was unacceptable for the team.
2) At this point in the season you think Dre should be cut or take a serious salary reduction to stay with the Texans next year. Keeping him as is is unacceptable to the team.
If so, what has changed? If it is just performance, I think it was reasonable to assume during preseason that age would continue to take its toll and he might not have the same killer attitude he had brought to previous seasons. I'm other words, I think the Texans have the exact Andre Johnson many fans were hell bent on keeping when he expressed a desire to move on.
Even more foolish is reading passionate posts that act like any of us have even the slightest say in the matter.
"Make a case" yada yada yada means jack squat. We all watch without even a microscopic ripple of influence on any of it.
Some folks appear unable to respectfully agree to disagree.
yep. Some people seem to ignore the clear message sent by the big guy that signs the checks and sort of owns the team.
It's not a hard concept, but hard heads seem unable to comprehend simple statements.
And what are they going to do about any of it? Boycott the team?
