Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

[76Texan]

2nd quarter
4th drive.
On first down, Smith got beat again, this time like a rag doll.
Keenum scrambled to his left and found DJ for 4.

After a 3-yd run, the Texans called a pass play.
Keenum was ready to pull the trigger at about the 2-1/2 sec mark but had to pull the ball back as a rusher was closing in on him.
The Jags only rushed 4.
Brown initially allowed the DE to penetrate inside, forcing Keenum to side step to his left.
As Brown lunged too far inside, the interior lineman was able to loop to the outside easily.
With four guys pursuing him - one was hanging onto him and pulling his back jersey - Keenum had to throw the ball away.

O-line problem.
Case did right by throwing the ball away.

 

[76Texan]

5th drive.
Keenum attempted a pass to AJ 17 yard downfield.
AJ had both hands on the ball, but couldn't hold on to it as the safety came down with a hit to jar the ball loose.
A good play by the safety.
By the way, Keenum couldn't wait any longer with Myers getting beat to the inside.
The DT's right hand was in his face right before the 3-sec mark.

On 2nd and 10, the Texans wanted a delayed screen pass to Tate, but I had no idea why Myers let his man go so early.
The guys was on Keenum in just a hair over 1 sec; Tate hadn't even made his turn yet.
Tate waited a second, faking like he was helping Brown before releasing.
The ball was right there, but as Tate did not have enough time to focus, he droppped the ball.

On third and 10, the Jags sent a 5-man blitz.
Keenum went quickly to Graham.
Either it was a great play by the defender or he had an arm bar on Graham.
At any rate, there was no separation.

Case did the right thing.
Either TE'S inability to get tion, good D, or a possible holding penalty by the defender.

 

[76Texan]

6th drive.
After 4 runs, Keenum sneaked for 2 and a first down.
Tate then got stopped for no gain.

On 2nd down, Keenum took a 9-yd sack as he did not realize that the LB was coming up on a blitz off the edge instead of dropping back into coverage.
Perhaps he simply missed it, or just maybe he was expecting Graham to block?
After all, Keenum did signal for Graham to move from left to right when he saw the original LB unlblocked.

On third and 19, the Jags rushed 4.
Keenum couldn't find anybody open downfield so he went with DJ for 9 to get into FG range at the 30.
It's better than holding on to the ball and leaving points on the field.

Case did the right thing.

 

[thunderkyss]

This drive stopped whether Case took a ten yard sack or a nineteen yards sack.
Even if he can magically throw the ball away, it is still a punt.

As it was the punt was downed at the Jags 34.
A better punt by Lechler, who is known for a booming leg would have the Jags at around the 25-29.

Not a big deal of field position to give up.
The risk was worth it to try to make a play.
JMO, of course.

This is called rationalization. Bad decisions are bad decisions & should be called out as bad decisions.

Everybody makes bad decisions, even that is not the problem. But when he makes several in one game... it's a problem.

Like I said before, doesn't matter whether we think Keenum "deserves" another shot or not. He's getting it. In your opinion, he only has to work on little things to become a viable starter. In my opinion, he's got to get a lot better in a lot of the fundamental decision making streams needed to play the game at the speed it's played to the level we need for him to become a viable starter.

If Case is thinking like you, I don't look for him to be on this team when the lights come on. If he's thinking like me, he'll most likely win the job for years to come.

 

[76Texan]

3rd quarterr

7th Drive.

After a 2-yd run by DJ, Keenum stepped up the pocket and connected with Graham for 7.
DJ tried two runs but came up an inch short of first down.
I wonder why Kubiak didn't use Tate here on third and short and fourth and short???

Not Case's problem.

 

[76Texan]

This is called rationalization. Bad decisions are bad decisions & should be called out as bad decisions.

Everybody makes bad decisions, even that is not the problem. But when he makes several in one game... it's a problem.

Like I said before, doesn't matter whether we think Keenum "deserves" another shot or not. He's getting it. In your opinion, he only has to work on little things to become a viable starter. In my opinion, he's got to get a lot better in a lot of the fundamental decision making streams needed to play the game at the speed it's played to the level we need for him to become a viable starter.

If Case is thinking like you, I don't look for him to be on this team when the lights come on. If he's thinking like me, he'll most likely win the job for years to come.

What do you think Case needs to do here?

The only way is a ten yard sack.
I want my QB to try to make play in this situation as a learning process.

 

[NCTexan]

I will say, though I agree more with the conclusions thunderkyss is drawing, I missed having 76Texan around doing this kind of stuff. I always appreciate your breakdowns of drives 76!

 

[76Texan]

9th drive.
Brown got beat too quickly, Keenum quickly found Tate for 6 on the RB screen.
This time, Tate didn't drop the ball.

On 2nd down, Newton got beat quickly, but Keenum was able to find Tate again for 7 and the first down.

On first down, Keenum's pass was nearly picked off.
I do not understand that throw; it was between Graham and AJ and right to the safety who dropped the ball.
Perhaps Keenum was expecting AJ to continue his route, but AJ sat down instead???
The ball was nowhere near either AJ or Graham.

On second down, Keenum beat the 5-man blitz with a 5-yd pass to Posey.

On third and 5, it was Hopkins' and Keenum's turns to miscommunicate.
As opposed to the pass to AJ earlier, this time the ball was thrown to the inside while Hopkins was looking to the outside.
Again, the ball was thrown before the receiver makes his break.
It was supposed to be thrown to a spot.
This time, with the CB backpedaling then turning his back to face the side line, I would think the inside is a better spot to throw the ball???
(In the back of the defender.)

They need more time together to get on the same page.

 

[thunderkyss]

I will say, though I agree more with the conclusions thunderkyss is drawing, I missed having 76Texan around doing this kind of stuff. I always appreciate your breakdowns of drives 76!

I wish he was around when we were bickering about Bridgewater, Bortles, & Manziel. That would have been interesting. But now, he's locked in to one guy & there are no other possibilities.

Only one right way.

 

[76Texan]

10th drive
Keenum found Graham quickly for 6 as Newton got beat.

He found Graham again, but the TE droppped the pass that would have gained a first down.

On third down, Keenum delivered a pass to AJ for 21 before the pocket collapsed.

A short pass was turned into a 12-yd gain by KMart.

Keenum then spiked the ball to stop the clock at 51 second.

From the Jags 41, Keenum sent an easy pass to Hopkins at the 14-yd line.
Hopkins promptly dropped the ball.

On third down, the pocket disintegrated quickly on a 4-man pass rush.
Myers was pushed into Keenum's lap (9-yd deep).
Brook/Newton lost their battles on a twist designed to draw Newton inside (blocking Brook) while the DT looped around the edge.

Keenum chose KMart to dump the ball to.
This guy is supposed to have good hands and can get some YAC.
He did neither.
Instead, he boblled the ball trying to turn around too soon.
The ball caroomed off his hands and was intercepted by a defender.
Ball game.

Not Case's problem.
If KMart made the routine catch for 4 or 5 yards, there's still 4th down.

OLINE problem again .

 

[thunderkyss]

What do you think Case needs to do here?

The only way is a ten yard sack.
I want my QB to try to make play in this situation as a learning process.

I want him to throw it away. I don't want to see him "giving up" nine yards. There are 46 other players out there, plus coaches who are thinking, "We've got to make up that 9 yards. Why does this guy think he's the only one out there trying to win this game?"

 

[76Texan]

I wish he was around when we were bickering about Bridgewater, Bortles, & Manziel. That would have been interesting. But now, he's locked in to one guy & there are no other possibilities.

Only one right way.

All I ever said is Keenum get an Incomplete grade.
He will have to battle it out in camp to make the roster or h gets cut.

I just don't like players to be made worse than they are.

That's always me.

 

[76Texan]

I want him to throw it away. I don't want to see him "giving up" nine yards. There are 46 other players out there, plus coaches who are thinking, "We've got to make up that 9 yards. Why does this guy think he's the only one out there trying to win this game?"

I said he doesn't have time to throw the ball away.
He will risk a penalty (for not getting the ball past the LOS), an INT, or a fumble as the defender was right there.

He was still in the pocket.

 

[76Texan]

I will say, though I agree more with the conclusions thunderkyss is drawing, I missed having 76Texan around doing this kind of stuff. I always appreciate your breakdowns of drives 76!

Thanks, man.

Whether we agree on things; it's better to have things laid down clearly.

 

[NCTexan]

Thanks, man.

Whether we agree on things; it's better to have things laid down clearly.

Agreed. And as long as everyone disagrees civilly, I really don't have an issue. In the end player evaluation is imperfect.

I like Keenum's mobility, but I'm just not sure the game slows down enough for him at this level.

 

[76Texan]

2nd drive
Texans went play action, but the Jags didn't buy.
With a guy boring on him from the front, Case nearly connected with Griffin fifteen yards downfield.
The ball was fit right where it needs to be between three defenders.
Could have been hitting a defenless receiver that was not called.
Graham very slow getting up after the cut block did not allow an easy outlet for Keenum.

On second down, with the pocket quickly collapsing, Keenum found Tate for 7.

On third and 3,
Keenum threw the ball to a spot (before AJ made his break).
This is similar to a play mentioned to Hopkins.
The QB zigged, while the receiver zagged.
Just need to be on the same page.

 

[eriadoc]

I want him to throw it away. I don't want to see him "giving up" nine yards. There are 46 other players out there, plus coaches who are thinking, "We've got to make up that 9 yards. Why does this guy think he's the only one out there trying to win this game?"

As I said in this thread or somewhere else, the guy is out there with a team that's on life support, and in his mind, he's got one shot. He's not throwing it away and neither would anyone with a genuine competitive streak. If you're going to get one shot, make your own mistakes, not someone else's. He wasn't good enough, but I'm happy he took the chances he took. It shows he's got moxie, and it's not like his dumb decisions cost the team a playoff berth. Put some people around him that are doing their job and those risks pay off a lot more than they did last season. Then he just has to learn to temper it, which is what every young QB has to learn.

And I'll say the same thing about Savage when he gets out there. I don't want to see a young QB playing it safe too often. Risk vs. reward for a young QB should always be weighted toward risk, IMO. Think about Favre's early years. No one ever accused him of playing it too safe.

 

[76Texan]

Agreed. And as long as everyone disagrees civilly, I really don't have an issue. In the end player evaluation is imperfect.

I like Keenum's mobility, but I'm just not sure the game slows down enough for him at this level.

As I saw in this game, there were only two plays in question.
The one that I insisted Case did not have time to throw the ball away.
Best he could have done was to go fetal and took less of a loss.
It wasn't critical anyway with Lechler as the punter.

The other one; let's assume that he missed the blitzer.
That was odd, since he did call for the TE to switch side to deal with it.
Whether the defender drop back or not, Case already recognized that he (the defender) was there.
Why he didn't take a quick look, I don't know.
He often does that; it's very uncharacteristic of him there.
I've seen him in those situations in college many times before.

 

[76Texan]

As I said in this thread or somewhere else, the guy is out there with a team that's on life support, and in his mind, he's got one shot. He's not throwing it away and neither would anyone with a genuine competitive streak. If you're going to get one shot, make your own mistakes, not someone else's. He wasn't good enough, but I'm happy he took the chances he took. It shows he's got moxie, and it's not like his dumb decisions cost the team a playoff berth. Put some people around him that are doing their job and those risks pay off a lot more than they did last season. Then he just has to learn to temper it, which is what every young QB has to learn.

And I'll say the same thing about Savage when he gets out there. I don't want to see a young QB playing it safe too often. Risk vs. reward for a young QB should always be weighted toward risk, IMO. Think about Favre's early years. No one ever accused him of playing it too safe.

Favre, the SAFE.

LOL, that would be the end of the world.

 

[thunderkyss]

I like Keenum's mobility, but I'm just not sure the game slows down enough for him at this level.

I'm pulling for the kid. Those TD passes to Andre had me sold.


Until I see someone else heave three TDs to Andre in a game, like those (where Andre went & got them), he's number one on my list. I just want to see better decisions. There's got to be one guy out there at all times with his head on right, pointing in the right direction. Works better for us if that guy is the QB & last year, I don't think he was.

As I said in this thread or somewhere else, the guy is out there with a team that's on life support, and in his mind, he's got one shot. He's not throwing it away and neither would anyone with a genuine competitive streak. If you're going to get one shot, make your own mistakes, not someone else's. He wasn't good enough, but I'm happy he took the chances he took. It shows he's got moxie, and it's not like his dumb decisions cost the team a playoff berth.

That doesn't work with the, "we lost 7 games by 7 points or less" story line.

Put some people around him that are doing their job and those risks pay off a lot more than they did last season. Then he just has to learn to temper it, which is what every young QB has to learn.

Now it's starting to feel like David Carr up in here. How many players do we have to put around him? Duane Brown, Chris Meyers, Andre Johnson, DeAndre Hopkins, & as far as I can tell, every body likes Brandon Brooks. That's five out of 10 (not counting the QB) quality starters.

Right now, this conversation, all I'm talking about is moving the ball in the second half. Putting some points on the board, avoiding getting swept by the Jacksonville Jaguars.

Do we need probowlers at every position to win a single game?

And I'll say the same thing about Savage when he gets out there. I don't want to see a young QB playing it safe too often. Risk vs. reward for a young QB should always be weighted toward risk, IMO. Think about Favre's early years. No one ever accused him of playing it too safe.

I want him, any QB really, to make the plays he knows he can make & not attempt the ones he doesn't know if he can or can't. I don't want him to "try" anything.

I understand sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. But when we look back at a young Tom Brady, we don't remember a lot of the plays he couldn't make (tuck rule is the only one that comes to mind). We only remember the ones he made. Not because he didn't fail on some, but because he succeeded on so many more.

Had Case fumbled the ball once in the endzone (or close to the goal line) I'd have forgotten it by now. But he did it twice, both times because, imo, he was slow to realize the ball had to be gone.

Had he taken one 15+ yard sack, maybe two... I'd have forgotten about it, but he took 19 sacks for 201 yards. That's ridiculous. We can't send a guy out there with that kind of average. Well, we shouldn't.

After that second time, he should have realized... "that's not going to win me a job anywhere. I need to stop making those decisions & make more of the ones that worked." Or simply, "Running backwards, bad. Running laterally or forward... good."

 

[76Texan]

I remember quite a few sacks Schaub took because he didn't see the unblocked Blitzer off the edge.

That was after Schaub had been in the league for a while.
I believe we still saw it in his second year with the Texans.

They should have cut that dude a long time ago, LOL.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

As I saw in this game, there were only two plays in question.
The one that I insisted Case did not have time to throw the ball away.
Best he could have done was to go fetal and took less of a loss.
It wasn't critical anyway with Lechler as the punter.

The other one; let's assume that he missed the blitzer.
That was odd, since he did call for the TE to switch side to deal with it.
Whether the defender drop back or not, Case already recognized that he (the defender) was there.
Why he didn't take a quick look, I don't know.
He often does that; it's very uncharacteristic of him there.
I've seen him in those situations in college many times before.

Thanks for your great breakdown.........always appreciated. MSR

 

[76Texan]

I seem to recall Tony Romo with a few bonehead plays after he had played several years.

Favreau was famous for that; so was Warren Moon.

I mean how do these guys not get cut?

 

[TEXANRED]

No. No he is not.

 

[thunderkyss]

I remember quite a few sacks Schaub took because he didn't see the unblocked Blitzer off the edge.

That was after Schaub had been in the league for a while.
I believe we still saw it in his second year with the Texans.

They should have cut that dude a long time ago, LOL.

If that's what you're getting out of what I said, then we're just speaking a different language.

I seem to recall Tony Romo with a few bonehead plays after he had played several years.

Favreau was famous for that; so was Warren Moon.

I mean how do these guys not get cut?

Again, you appear to be talking to two different people. All I said was that he did nothing to stop us from taking a QB in the first three rounds & that he does not "deserve" to start.

However, if he does not beat Fitzpatrick (& with your knowledge you should know it's far easier than not) he should be let go. We should move on.

 

[thunderkyss]

double post

 

[76Texan]

If that's what you're getting out of what I said, then we're just speaking a different language.

Some not the best QBS made stupid plays even deep into their careers.
Keenum needs to make more plays to compensate the mistakes he made.

That is why he's not given the starting job by OB.

Does it sound like I don't understand you, TK?

 

[thunderkyss]

Some not the best QBS made stupid plays even deep into their careers.
Keenum needs to make more plays to compensate the mistakes he made.

That is why he's not given the starting job by OB.

Does it sound like I don't understand you, TK?

This, yes. Wondering why we didn't cut Schaub because he failed on a few occasions out of many to not pick up a free blitzer, not so much.

It's not about making stupid plays either, it's about not making enough positive plays.

 

[Hervoyel]

I want him to throw it away. I don't want to see him "giving up" nine yards. There are 46 other players out there, plus coaches who are thinking, "We've got to make up that 9 yards. Why does this guy think he's the only one out there trying to win this game?"

Because he's a first time starter who doesn't know any better and he thinks that if he doesn't make it happen he's done in this league. Just a classic case of trying to do too much. He isn't the first player to do that nor will he be the last. What I want to see is what you want to see out of Keenum now. Did he learn anything?

 

[thunderkyss]

Because he's a first time starter who doesn't know any better and he thinks that if he doesn't make it happen he's done in this league. Just a classic case of trying to do too much. He isn't the first player to do that nor will he be the last. What I want to see is what you want to see out of Keenum now. Did he learn anything?

I'd have felt better about it had he learned it sometime during the 8 games he started.

To contrast, Andrew Luck was sacked 41 times for 246 yards. (6 yards/sack)

Henne, in his first 13 games (his sophomore season) was sacked 26 times for 176 yards. (2 yards/sack)

Nick Foles started 6 games as a rookie (drafted in the third) 20 sacks for 131 yards (6.55 yards/sack)

Undrafted Tony Romo started 10 games in his 4th season, 21 sacks 124 yards. (5.9 yards/sack)

Keenum, 19 for 201. (10 yards/sack).

I don't think I'm asking too much. I'm questioning the decisions this kid made & imo, this is an example of where he made the wrong decision time & time again. Red Flag... that's all I'm saying.

Again, I want the kid to succeed more than any QB on our roster at this time. The only thing that I argue is that he "deserves" a chance to prove that he can play better than he did last year. Yes, he was on a bad team last year. But that bad team had a bad QB, bad even for a rookie.

 

[76Texan]

Terry Bradshaw started 8 games his rookie year.
He played in 14 games.
Bradshaw got credited for 3 wins.
In those wins, his lines are as followed:

A seven to three win over the Oilers
8 of 17 for 208 yards, 1 TD and 3 INTs - 3 rushes for 1 yard

A 23-3 win
3 of 12 for 24 yards, no TD nor INT - 2 rushes for 18 yards.

A 21-10 win
4-12 for 40 yards, no TD nor INT - 3 rushes for 15 yards.

For the year, he completed 38% of his passes (83-218) for 1,410 yards, 6 TDs and 24 INTs

In his second year, he improved the numbers to 54.4% (203-373), 2259 yards, 13 TDS and 22 INTs.

In his third year, it was 47.73% for 1,887 yards, 12 TDs, 12 Ints.


It is quite common, much more common than people realize.
Check out Brees' number in his second and third years.
They were worse than Keenum's

Check out Favre, Tarkenton, Bledsoe, Cunningham, Elway, Fouts, Griese Sr., Archie Manning, Eli, McNair, Moon (NfL), Alex Smith, Theisman to name a fews.

 

[76Texan]

I'd have felt better about it had he learned it sometime during the 8 games he started.

To contrast, Andrew Luck was sacked 41 times for 246 yards. (6 yards/sack)

Henne, in his first 13 games (his sophomore season) was sacked 26 times for 176 yards. (2 yards/sack)

Nick Foles started 6 games as a rookie (drafted in the third) 20 sacks for 131 yards (6.55 yards/sack)

Undrafted Tony Romo started 10 games in his 4th season, 21 sacks 124 yards. (5.9 yards/sack)

Keenum, 19 for 201. (10 yards/sack).

I don't think I'm asking too much. I'm questioning the decisions this kid made & imo, this is an example of where he made the wrong decision time & time again. Red Flag... that's all I'm saying.

Again, I want the kid to succeed more than any QB on our roster at this time. The only thing that I argue is that he "deserves" a chance to prove that he can play better than he did last year. Yes, he was on a bad team last year. But that bad team had a bad QB, bad even for a rookie.

How many of those sacks were the results of Keenum's mistakes?

All sacks are not created equal.

Remember that Noles was one QB I said I like when a poster asked for my opinion in the college section.
I said he just needs to learn to get rid of the ball sooner, something he obviously worked on quite well.

 

[thunderkyss]

Terry Bradshaw started 8 games his rookie year.
He played in 14 games.
Bradshaw got credited for 3 wins.
In those wins, his lines are as followed:

A seven to three win over the Oilers
8 of 17 for 208 yards, 1 TD and 3 INTs - 3 rushes for 1 yard

A 23-3 win
3 of 12 for 24 yards, no TD nor INT - 2 rushes for 18 yards.

A 21-10 win
4-12 for 40 yards, no TD nor INT - 3 rushes for 15 yards.

For the year, he completed 38% of his passes (83-218) for 1,410 yards, 6 TDs and 24 INTs

In his second year, he improved the numbers to 54.4% (203-373), 2259 yards, 13 TDS and 22 INTs.

In his third year, it was 47.73% for 1,887 yards, 12 TDs, 12 Ints.


It is quite common, much more common than people realize.
Check out Brees' number in his second and third years.
They were worse than Keenum's

Check out Favre, Tarkenton, Bledsoe, Cunningham, Elway, Fouts, Griese Sr., Archie Manning, Eli, McNair, Moon (NfL), Alex Smith, Theisman to name a fews.

Yeah, I think we've all agreed that we could overlook a lot of Keenum's faults had he won a game. Had he won three, we'd be talking about a Super Bowl appearance in 2014.

 

[thunderkyss]

How many of those sacks were the results of Keenum's mistakes?

All sacks are not created equal.

Remember that Noles was one QB I said I like when a poster asked for my opinion in the college section.
I said he just needs to learn to get rid of the ball sooner, something he obviously worked on quite well.

Fales? David Fales?

Anyway, Keenum is going to get another shot. All he has to do is beat out Ryan Fitpatrick. I'd be thrilled if I were a Keenumite. No doubt in my mind that he's going to win the starting job.

I'm just not going to waste a lot of time trying to convince anyone he wasn't "that bad"

 

[76Texan]

Yeah, I think we've all agreed that we could overlook a lot of Keenum's faults had he won a game. Had he won three, we'd be talking about a Super Bowl appearance in 2014.

Are we starting to speak different languages again? LOL.

Got to run, dude.

Working tomorrow.

 

[DocBar]

That was not my point about the sacks. Though the numbers were the same, more or less, the amount of yards per sack were way out of wack for Case. Those, imo, are stupid plays. The kind of thing we'll be laughing about JFF doing in Cleveland.

That's poor QB play. Similar to taking a snap in the endzone & holding the ball for more than a second. Case did that. Similar to taking the snap at the two yard line & running back into the end zone... Case did that.

I understand looking for a big play, & I admire QBs that take chances. But the ones that stay in the NFL are the ones that take those chances & come out on top more times than not. I did not get that feeling from Case at any time in those last 8 games.

If you're down a score at the end of the game, with the ball in your hands, you need to get those points, you need to win that game. This wasn't 2010 when we'd have a lead & the defense would blow it. In 2013, we went into the 2nd half of most games with a lead, but with Keenum back there, I knew the chances of winning those games were nil. I knew we wouldn't be able to move the ball, or get defensive stops.

I don't get on Case for not winning, for the most part. I get on him for not giving us a chance to win. If you "know" that you can't move the ball in the second half, if you can't put points on the board in the second half, regardless how many you put up in the first, you have almost no chance of winning that game.

The second half, that's when the game gets real. That's when it counts. The closer you get to 0:00 in the 4th qtr, the more real it gets, the greater the pressure gets. Some people, some teams get better the closer you get to 0:00 (Andrew Luck & the Colts)... some don't.

Our team sucked the closer we got to 0:00. Case was not a shining light on that defense, he was part of the problem.

The bolded should be easy fixes. It's much harder to teach a QB to stand in the pocket/hold the ball than throw it away/ROB. I'll take a 10 + yd sack over throwing the ball away or ROB at the 1st signs of pressure. That's soooo David Carr.

 

[Goatcheese]

If anything, Keenum is the exact opposite of KJ and Myers. Their first few games with the Texans were nothing short of abysmal. But 8 games in they had made some strides that had people thinking they could develop into quality players.

Keenum came out with both guns blazing and wowed a lot of people and then had a dismal stretch where he threw for under 5 YPA and got benched twice. He was getting worse every game and making people think he can't handle the speed and complexity of the NFL.

 

[LikeMike]

I think we can all agree on something: there should be an open QB competition in camp. People that are wanting to see Keenum want him to win that competition and earn the starting job. People who are argueing against him just doubt his abilities to beat out Fitzpatrick and maybe also Savage.

He won`t be cut before that competition, OB would be stupid to do so. There is a lot to like about Keenum and he was in a pretty bad position last season. But saying he didn`t get his chance is stupid. He´s got a bigger chance than probably 99% of all other UDFA. And he`s earned his chance to get another fair shot in training camp. Nothing more than that so far.

 

[thunderkyss]

He´s got a bigger chance than probably 99% of all other UDFA. And he`s earned his chance to get another fair shot in training camp. Nothing more than that so far.

better than 99% of fourth rounders. So has Fitzpatrick.

 

[eriadoc]

If anything, Keenum is the exact opposite of KJ and Myers. Their first few games with the Texans were nothing short of abysmal. But 8 games in they had made some strides that had people thinking they could develop into quality players.

Keenum came out with both guns blazing and wowed a lot of people and then had a dismal stretch where he threw for under 5 YPA and got benched twice. He was getting worse every game and making people think he can't handle the speed and complexity of the NFL.

That's my concern. The long sacks don't bother me outside of the flow of the game. They bothered me at the time, and I cussed him just like everyone else. But when you step back and think about it, that sort of thing stemmed from a bigger problem, and is completely correctable. The rest? Not so sure.

 

[NCTexan]

How many of those sacks were the results of Keenum's mistakes?

All sacks are not created equal.

Andrew Luck had a pretty bad oline in front of him (he got sacked more) and he wasn't getting sacked for 10/yards a time.

Don't pretend like every other teams oline is perfect.

 

[steelbtexan]

Great post, Herv! I believe Keenum will get his fair chance to compete for the starting role.......and that is all I would ask for. Last year, Keenum wasn't just simply thrown into the fire...............he was thrown into Hell.

Great pic

This is all I want too.

It seems as though Keenums biggest weakness is blitz recognition. BOB along with the experience Keenum got last yr should help with this deficiency. If Keenum gets a fair shot I expect Keenum to win the starting QB job. Is he a franchise QB probably not. (As TK said the Texans should keep looking) Can he be a serviceable starter until a franchise QB can be found? (Probably)

I will trust BOB's opinion over the MB's haters that

A. Wanted Bridgewater or bust and felt the need to denigrate every QB not named Bridgewater.
B. Manziel or bust guys for the same reasons as above.
C. Kubiak lovers who needed somebody to blame for Kubiak's failings after 8 yrs as HC.

I'm rooting for the best QB for the future of the Texans to win the job. If that means throwing Savage into the fire game 1 so be it. If that means starting Keenum/Fitz/Yates I'm good with that too. Although if BOB goes starting the backup QB route 1st and bringing in Savage later I will be rooting for Keenum. I'm just glad a competent HC with an open mind will be making that call and not the MB/Fanbase.

 

[heymak]

It wouldn't hurt my feelings if Keenum wins the starting job. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if Fitz/Yates/Savage won the starting job, either.

All I expect is honest, open competition and the best man wins. No favoritism.

I think we'll see this scenario at every position. I don't expect to see a lot of loyalty from the coaching staff. They didn't draft the vets on this team. That should improve the overall play of the team. imo.

I'd really like to see Keenum succeed, but this is what I really want see at training camp too.

 

[76Texan]

Andrew Luck had a pretty bad oline in front of him (he got sacked more) and he wasn't getting sacked for 10/yards a time.

Don't pretend like every other teams oline is perfect.

Luck got sacked 32 times in 16 games.
Keenum got sacked 19 times in less than 8 games.

So actually, prorated, Keenum was sacked more.

But my point about all sacks not being equal was supposed to be meant in a different way.
It's going to be hard to elaborate, but at least, let me try to start.

Greg Bedard from SI wrote a year-long series with title that goes something like "Film room MMQB - Pressure Point".

You can read up on his method of grading.
He gave different grade for a sack caused by the QB holding on to the ball too long, for example; which is logical.

By the same token, I figure that he doesn't penalize an O-line man when the QB hold on to the ball.

And so, Bedard has a chart to grade each O-line weekly.

At the end of week 6, before Keenum's debut, the Texans O-line was graded ahead of 11 teams in pass pro.

By the end of week 15 (game 14), Keenum's last start, the Texans pass pro had deteriorated further such that they only ranked ahead of 5 teams (cumultatively.)

In another word, Keenum's pass protection was at best, 6th worst in the league.
At worst, his pass protection might have been the worse.
(I don't know of a good way to separate his grades to determine between worst and 6th worst. )

The one definitive thing is that it was horrible.

 

[76Texan]

Another way to prorate the sack numbers is per pass attempt, even though that still has a flaw.

Keenum was sacked 19 times in 253 pass attempts.
Luck was sacked 32 times in 570 pass attempts.

If we were to prorate, Keenum would have been sacked 42.8 times in 570 pass attempts.

 

[76Texan]

My next point, also based on Bedard ' s analysis of QB's pressure, is that Keenum had made stride on avoiding sacks.

In his first game, he took 5 sacks (whether they are.justified or not) on 30 pass plays (25 pass attempts plus the 5 sacks; let's not count the time he took off and ran due to pressure.)

For the rest of his games, he took 14 sacks on 242 pass plays (228 attempts plus the 14 sacks.)

If he kept on his way of taking 5 sacks for every 30 pass plays, he would have ended up with 54 sacks altogether - if my calculation is correct.

So I don't understand the thought of regressing.
It looks to me like he was doing exactly what TK wanted him to do, which is to get rid of the ball, instead of trying to do too much.

 

[NCTexan]

Luck got sacked 32 times in 16 games.
Keenum got sacked 19 times in less than 8 games.

So actually, prorated, Keenum was sacked more.

Sorry, I was referring to Luck's rookie season since people want to include Keenum as a rookie since he only had a year on the practice squad.

So Luck had 41 sacks for 246 yards (6 yards/sack) [credit to TK].

I think it becomes pretty obvious (especially if you look at the rest of TK's numbers) that Keenum made his sacks longer than everyone else did. No one else was close to 10 yards a sack in their first starts.

To contrast, Andrew Luck was sacked 41 times for 246 yards. (6 yards/sack)

Henne, in his first 13 games (his sophomore season) was sacked 26 times for 176 yards. (2 yards/sack)

Nick Foles started 6 games as a rookie (drafted in the third) 20 sacks for 131 yards (6.55 yards/sack)

Undrafted Tony Romo started 10 games in his 4th season, 21 sacks 124 yards. (5.9 yards/sack)

Keenum, 19 for 201. (10 yards/sack).

I'm not saying Keenum can't be the guy for us, or at least a reasonable stop gap. But he has a lot more work to do than some seem to be saying.

 

[76Texan]

Luck took 41 sacks on 627 pass attempts (668 pass plays).
That is also much fewer than Keenum's numbers prorated.

He did a good job, still.
But let's not forget about his INTS (rookie season.)

I don't argue that Luck had a good rookie season.
He did.
And he does better his second year, in my book, with a better O-line, and he was asked to do less.

He's a very good QB.

 

[76Texan]

If anybody has some time before I do, I'd like to take a look at all the sacks he took.

For example, I took a quick "re-look" at the five sacks in the KC game.
They aren't all horrendous.

Most were on third down where throwing the ball away does the offense no good.

Unless he gives up FG position, loses the ball on a fumble trying to do too much, those sacks don't bother me.

Yes, he did some of the things I mentioned, but not at an alarming rate.

Basically, for a first time starter, IMHO, Keenum played a smaller part in losing games for the Texans.
If I was to divide the "blames" (taking into account the importance of the QB'S role), I still think Keenum was less of a problem than pretty much all other facets of the team, with a very few exceptions individually.

I'm not sold on Keenum being the guy either, but I do believe that he can be at least, a very good backup.

 

[thunderkyss]

Luck got sacked 32 times in 16 games.
Keenum got sacked 19 times in less than 8 games.

So actually, prorated, Keenum was sacked more.

But my point about all sacks not being equal was supposed to be meant in a different way.
It's going to be hard to elaborate, but at least, let me try to start.

Let me try to explain my "grading system"

Andrew Luck was sacked 32 times in 16 games. Nobody cares because the team he led won 11 games.

Case Keenum was sacked 19 times in 8 games. Nobody cares because his team won 0 games.

It's a team sport & all that, but the QB is the leader. Not that it's his fault that we lost 8 games, but they're sure as heck blaming him for not winning 1. Especially when so many of them were so close.

Yeah, Bullock missed that field goal which would have propped Keenum up to Tom Brady status. It sux, but that's the way it goes.