Clowney, then what?

[mussop]

How is this believable when this guy wouldn't play nearly that hard in Prime time games? I think his coaches are taking the high road at this point and don't want to **** on their player before the draft. That would be horrible for future recruiting. I'm sure he had a practice or two like that over the years though. He has the ability, but I'm not about to believe that he played like this in practice regularly when he clearly didn't in what was obvious as his last year in college. This was basically a contract year for him, and he disappointed the masses.

You should read the article.

“Looking at him this year compared to last year, it seemed like last year every single play was balls to the wall, hell on wheels,” says the AFC executive. “This year, there’s a lot of plays where he comes off the ball super hard, and if the ball is away he just kind of chills and watches the play. There’s definitely going to be some questions about that.”


Clowney’s watching Marcus Lattimore, the Gamecocks’ star running back, drop from a first-round talent to the fourth round because of a gruesome knee injury last year, and the stars aligned for Clowney’s subpar season—perhaps dropping him from being the first overall pick.

“I don’t see how that is such a factor that a team would take him off their board,” says an AFC scouting director. “Yeah, he’s immature and a young kid, but you can also go against that and say when he had a chance to shut it down, he did decide to come back. I think some of that can be overblown.”

But there’s still a question of how much Clowney lives and breathes football. Those who know him well say he loved to play the game in high school, and during his first two years at Carolina. But this season, with the rib and ankle issues, and teams dedicated to stopping him, Clowney has appeared to grow frustrated on game days.

 

[steelbtexan]

How is this believable when this guy wouldn't play nearly that hard in Prime time games? I think his coaches are taking the high road at this point and don't want to **** on their player before the draft. That would be horrible for future recruiting. I'm sure he had a practice or two like that over the years though. He has the ability, but I'm not about to believe that he played like this in practice regularly when he clearly didn't in what was obvious as his last year in college. This was basically a contract year for him, and he disappointed the masses.

He's going to get a top 5 contract, as opposed to a 4-6th rd contract if he would've blown out his knee like Brandon Thomas.

A very good business decision. IMHO

 

[mussop]

You should read the article.

“Looking at him this year compared to last year, it seemed like last year every single play was balls to the wall, hell on wheels,” says the AFC executive. “This year, there’s a lot of plays where he comes off the ball super hard, and if the ball is away he just kind of chills and watches the play. There’s definitely going to be some questions about that.”


Clowney’s watching Marcus Lattimore, the Gamecocks’ star running back, drop from a first-round talent to the fourth round because of a gruesome knee injury last year, and the stars aligned for Clowney’s subpar season—perhaps dropping him from being the first overall pick.

“I don’t see how that is such a factor that a team would take him off their board,” says an AFC scouting director. “Yeah, he’s immature and a young kid, but you can also go against that and say when he had a chance to shut it down, he did decide to come back. I think some of that can be overblown.”

But there’s still a question of how much Clowney lives and breathes football. Those who know him well say he loved to play the game in high school, and during his first two years at Carolina. But this season, with the rib and ankle issues, and teams dedicated to stopping him, Clowney has appeared to grow frustrated on game days.

Sorry to quote myself. The bolded confuses me. It's stated as if that is abnormal. Lot's of players do this. Hell JJ Watt does it a few times a game. DL men get gassed and walk/slow jog down plays away from them all the time. Clowney never came out of games and teams ran away from him and focused their passing game on quick three step drops. When not doing that they shifted the blocking scheme to max protect against him. Who wouldn't get frustrated in that situation?

 

[mussop]

He's going to get a top 5 contract, as opposed to a 4-6th rd contract if he would've blown out his knee like Brandon Thomas.

A very good business decision. IMHO

It was a bad decision to even play. He really didn't want to. He said he only played because his team mates wanted him to. Regardless I think it's laughable that people act as though they would of done any different. It's easy to hide behind a keyboard and act all holier than thou. As is the money wouldn't matter to them.

 

[thunderkyss]

He's going to get a top 5 contract, as opposed to a 4-6th rd contract if he would've blown out his knee like Brandon Thomas.

A very good business decision. IMHO

A whole lot of players didn't blow out there knee last year. Several of them are going to be top 10 picks in 2014. How many of them shut it down?

 

[steelbtexan]

A whole lot of players didn't blow out there knee last year. Several of them are going to be top 10 picks in 2014. How many of them shut it down?

It really doesn't matter what other players did.

What matters is Clowney will be a top 5 pick and his family should be well taken care of for the rest of their lives.

 

[mussop]

A whole lot of players didn't blow out there knee last year. Several of them are going to be top 10 picks in 2014. How many of them shut it down?

None of which could of went straight out of high school into the NFL.

 

[mussop]

link

On Saturday, Clowney has been hobbling around the field with a foot injury he aggravated against Georgia. It originally happened this week at practice, when a teammate stepped on Clowney.

The situation demonstrates the reality that Clowney had nothing to gain and everything to lose by playing another year of football for no compensation other than an education Clowney could have paid for on his own (a few hundred times over) after his NFL career ends. Many, including the head coach who gets paid millions for the effort expended and risk accepted by college football players, scoffed at the notion of Clowney heading to the clubhouse for his third season after graduating high school. But it would have been better to step aside from play-for-no-pay and remain at the top of the draft than to emerge from the new football season on the wrong end of a Barkley-Brohm board slide.

The millionaire coaches who have no incentive to advise a player like Clowney to quit are only part of the problem. The NFL rule that keeps kids from joining the leagye until they are three years removed from high school isn’t about ensuring boys have become men.


There were absolutely zero questions about him before 2013. So who is the real Clowney? The 2013 Clowney or the one who played lights out for years before 2013? I can't fault a guy for doing exactly what 99.9% of other people would of done in his situation. It was an unusual set of circumstances that led up to the poor year IMO.

IMO there is no way you pass on him unless you get an incredible trade down offer or OB feels like one of the top QB's could run his system at a very very high level eventually.

 

[TexansSeminole]

That's not exactly a good argument for a pro-draft Clowney agenda. The foot injury is clearly the bone spur problem. Assuming no surgery, are we to assume that this injury will flair up post-draft and in the 2014 season? These are the questions that you must ask if you are deciding whether to draft him or not.

 

[leebigeztx]

link

On Saturday, Clowney has been hobbling around the field with a foot injury he aggravated against Georgia. It originally happened this week at practice, when a teammate stepped on Clowney.

The situation demonstrates the reality that Clowney had nothing to gain and everything to lose by playing another year of football for no compensation other than an education Clowney could have paid for on his own (a few hundred times over) after his NFL career ends. Many, including the head coach who gets paid millions for the effort expended and risk accepted by college football players, scoffed at the notion of Clowney heading to the clubhouse for his third season after graduating high school. But it would have been better to step aside from play-for-no-pay and remain at the top of the draft than to emerge from the new football season on the wrong end of a Barkley-Brohm board slide.

The millionaire coaches who have no incentive to advise a player like Clowney to quit are only part of the problem. The NFL rule that keeps kids from joining the leagye until they are three years removed from high school isn’t about ensuring boys have become men.


There were absolutely zero questions about him before 2013. So who is the real Clowney? The 2013 Clowney or the one who played lights out for years before 2013? I can't fault a guy for doing exactly what 99.9% of other people would of done in his situation. It was an unusual set of circumstances that led up to the poor year IMO.

IMO there is no way you pass on him unless you get an incredible trade down offer or OB feels like one of the top QB's could run his system at a very very high level eventually.

If you go watch last yr,you will see the exact same player as you did as a freshman and a junioor. I've watched enough to know and I can read the same that the metrics guy pointed out 80% of his 13 sacks came as a result of pressure from other players. There ae also indicators that show his sacks come from strictly speed rush,that's pretty much it. Not saying that's the end all be all,but how come that's the only way he gets sacks in college? Against all pro or even good tackles who realize you can't d aything but speed rush, they just double kick and set on your speed just like those future barbers were doing.

 

[disaacks3]

You should read the article.

“Looking at him this year compared to last year, it seemed like last year every single play was balls to the wall, hell on wheels,” says the AFC executive. “This year, there’s a lot of plays where he comes off the ball super hard, and if the ball is away he just kind of chills and watches the play. There’s definitely going to be some questions about that.”

They saw what I saw. It isnt that he stopped sprinting after the play was out of reach. I saw several times where the play was very much in his area (and even came back to him), but due to lack of pursuit went for a big gain after being stuffed initially by other defensive players. In other words, if he kept after it, he very likely would have made the play, but after giving up too early, he took himself out of it.

The millionaire coaches who have no incentive to advise a player like Clowney to quit are only part of the problem. The NFL rule that keeps kids from joining the leagye until they are three years removed from high school isn’t about ensuring boys have become men.


There were absolutely zero questions about him before 2013. So who is the real Clowney? The 2013 Clowney or the one who played lights out for years before 2013? I can't fault a guy for doing exactly what 99.9% of other people would of done in his situation. It was an unusual set of circumstances that led up to the poor year IMO.

Those millionaire coaches aren't supposed to be concerned about their players after college. Their job is to win, win now, and win repeatedly.

There's a reason there are questions about his motivation. The only real stat that was "up" for him in 2013 was Passes defensed. If it had just been sacks, or just been tackles, that'd be less to hang the hat on.

He certainly has the physical tools to be a success. The question is between his ears, and not about his football smarts either. What motivates him, what drives him, how much does he truly want to be one of the best?

 

[mussop]

They saw what I saw. It isnt that he stopped sprinting after the play was out of reach. I saw several times where the play was very much in his area (and even came back to him), but due to lack of pursuit went for a big gain after being stuffed initially by other defensive players. In other words, if he kept after it, he very likely would have made the play, but after giving up too early, he took himself out of.

Could you point me in the direction of one of these plays.

 

[IDEXAN]

We've still got 2 weeks to go before the Draft, and my biggest concern here is that with all of this time the guys in O'Brien's team might over think this decision they've got and somehow fail to take the player who is by consensus rated as this years top prospect and one of top talents in recent NFL Drafts.
If the Texans don't want to use the 1.1 on a QB and if they have no serious concerns about Clowney re injuries, their Draft decision on who to pick with the 1.1 should be obvious unless they can negotiate a trade for the pick which is favorable to the team.

 

[disaacks3]

Could you point me in the direction of one of these plays.

Missouri - 12:01 in the 1st, 3:49 in the 1st, 1:30 in the 1st (actually did try to re-engage late), 13:16 in the 3rd.

Others: Nice non attempt at coverage - 2:26 in the 1st.

This is only one game against really good competition.

Don't get me wrong, he also made some FANTASTIC plays in that game. What makes these stand out is that you can see what he's capable on the really great ones, which makes it so apparent when he mails it in on the others.

He has the tools, but it'll take some good coaching to keep the motor revving.

 

[thunderkyss]

Tajh Boyd should have dialed it back in 2013. He was practically a lock for a first round pick.

 

[mussop]

Tajh Boyd should have dialed it back in 2013. He was practically a lock for a first round pick.

Huge difference

 

[mussop]

Missouri - 12:01 in the 1st, 3:49 in the 1st, 1:30 in the 1st (actually did try to re-engage late), 13:16 in the 3rd.

Others: Nice non attempt at coverage - 2:26 in the 1st.

This is only one game against really good competition.

Don't get me wrong, he also made some FANTASTIC plays in that game. What makes these stand out is that you can see what he's capable on the really great ones, which makes it so apparent when he mails it in on the others.

He has the tools, but it'll take some good coaching to keep the motor revving.

Thanks. You don't have a link to that do you? Because I have one and I'm not seeing the same thing that you are. Link

This is the game right? Are you going by actual game time or time on video?

 

[Texecutioner]

It really doesn't matter what other players did.

What matters is Clowney will be a top 5 pick and his family should be well taken care of for the rest of their lives.

Huh. You mean the same way that VY's family is right now or Jamarcus Russell? These guys blow their wads all of the time. And Clowney has a ton of motivational question marks the same way that Russell did coming into the draft as far as his character concerns. Clowney was rumored to run around with an entourage all season long. That's a big concern for me for any 1st round pick.

 

[Texecutioner]

We've still got 2 weeks to go before the Draft, and my biggest concern here is that with all of this time the guys in O'Brien's team might over think this decision they've got and somehow fail to take the player who is by consensus rated as this years top prospect and one of top talents in recent NFL Drafts.
If the Texans don't want to use the 1.1 on a QB and if they have no serious concerns about Clowney re injuries, their Draft decision on who to pick with the 1.1 should be obvious unless they can negotiate a trade for the pick which is favorable to the team.

It should be obvious on a guy who got 4 sacks? Lol!

You may like the guy, but to act like he is far and away better than guys like Mack, Manziel, Bortles, and Mathews is hilarious. You are basing all of this stuff on his so called potential, and not what he actually did in his final year. All of these other guys actually showed up and had monster seasons.

 

[disaacks3]

Thanks. You don't have a link to that do you?

Youtube blocked on my work PC. I think it came up as "clowney full game missouri 2013"

 

[mussop]

It should be obvious on a guy who got 4 sacks? Lol!

JJ Watt only had seven his last year. Lol!

 

[Texecutioner]

JJ Watt only had seven his last year. Lol!

And Watt wasn't talked about like the next coming of god either. However, Watt was talked about as being a great hard working guy who had ZERO character concerns and ZERO motivational issues. He was known as a guy who had a tremendous motor that never stopped going.

Clowney on the other hand all types of motivation questions from scouts, coaches, and fans who watched him.

Silly comparison to say the least. I'll take the high motor player that goes all out on every play over the freak athlete who lacks motivation and has an ego any day of the week.

 

[Double Barrel]

Watched the game tape? Well if that's the case, you clearly didn't watch it. If you did, you'd understand all of the criticism from tons of people across the country. To deny that any of it is relevant is laughable. You go watch the tape for yourself instead of listening to ESPN analysts choke on themselves over his size and stature. That won't do anything in the NFL if you aren't a high motor player at that position, and he clearly wasn't. Funny though, how many of you like to just deny that it exists at all for some reason, but yet you don't hear any of that stuff about a guy like Mack or even Barr for that matter. It's all over the place on CLowney. But people just need to watch the tape right? Lol!

So here's a question for ya', man: NFL teams are seeing the same game tape and one of them will probably make Clowney a top 5 pick, so do you think pro scouts and NFL front offices do not understand what they are seeing?

We can dismiss the media and fans, but at the end of the day, professional football teams are looking at this player as a very high draft prospect. I have very little doubt that several teams in the first ten picks will grab him if he is available, so it is not like one team just doesn't get it. And I honestly doubt any of these teams listen to "draft experts" in the media or fan boards/radio shows.

btw, don't blast me, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I'm looking forward to the draft to finally root for whoever they pick,

 

[disaacks3]

So here's a question for ya', man: NFL teams are seeing the same game tape and one of them will probably make Clowney a top 5 pick, so do you think pro scouts and NFL front offices do not understand what they are seeing?

Easy answer, they see the "potential". Same reason teams drafted Ryan Leaf, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Dewayne Robertson, Mike Mamula, Courtney Brown, Derrick Harvey, Mike Williams, Vernon Gholston and on and on and on.

 

[Playoffs]

Clowney has a ton of motivational question marks the same way that Russell did coming into the draft as far as his character concerns...

Jamarcus was addicted to codeine and promethazine... Clowney doesn't even drink. He did drive over the speed limit, though, so there's that.

.Clowney was rumored to run around with an entourage all season long...

All feedback from teams who actually met and spent time with the kid are positive, very likeable, other prospects like him.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2305132#post2305132

We reached out to sources with teams across the league to get their feedback on how Clowney did in the team meetings. Unanimously, they all said he did well, and they were impressed with how he addressed their concerns.

Two teams that are picking in the top five told WalterFootball.com that they are good with Clowney as a person/teammate, and they are not concerned about his work ethic or drive. They both said he did very well in the interview and eased any doubts that they had.

Another team picking in the teens that would consider moving up for Clowney if he slides in the top 10 said Clowney did very well. One playoff team said they didn't take the time to interview Clowney because they don't have any shot at landing him, but they asked friends they trust who did interview him, and they said they heard that Clowney did very well in those team meetings...

An AFC team we reached out to got back to us this morning. They agreed with the consensus: "Clowney did very well. No issues with his interview."

So ding him for his down year, but Clowney is not some

bad kid. His personality is the polar opposite of someone like Mario, who was dark and even suicidal.

 

[infantrycak]

Easy answer, they see the "potential". Same reason teams drafted Ryan Leaf, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Dewayne Robertson, Mike Mamula, Courtney Brown, Derrick Harvey, Mike Williams, Vernon Gholston and on and on and on.

Yup. Overall they do know more than fans and pundits but the draft is more art than science and even the experts take gambles especially where the "potential" payoff is huge. Like all gambles they don't always pay out. Hardly anyone is denying Clowney's potential. They are really saying they won't take the gamble on him.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Could you point me in the direction of one of these plays.

Way earlier in the thread (the link is here: post 597), I broke down a whole game showing the plays where I thought he was pulling up and not trying. IIRC, I had a link to the video I was looking at AND the time to go to for the plays I talked about. There were a lot of them.

One play that still sticks with me was a pass play where he didn't even really try. He played patty-cake with the tackle, fell to the ground, and then got up jawing and talking to the official WHILE the play was still going on. And this wasn't some long pass play. IIRC, it was a short dump off where he could have gotten into the action if he'd trailed the play.

That being said, he also had some amazing plays.

That's what's so frustrating.

 

[HOU-TEX]

So here's a question for ya', man: NFL teams are seeing the same game tape and one of them will probably make Clowney a top 5 pick, so do you think pro scouts and NFL front offices do not understand what they are seeing?

We can dismiss the media and fans, but at the end of the day, professional football teams are looking at this player as a very high draft prospect. I have very little doubt that several teams in the first ten picks will grab him if he is available, so it is not like one team just doesn't get it. And I honestly doubt any of these teams listen to "draft experts" in the media or fan boards/radio shows.

btw, don't blast me, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I'm looking forward to the draft to finally root for whoever they pick,

Seems to be happening quite a bit around here lately. Not only that dude, but a handful of others too. If your opinion doesn't jive with theirs, by George, they're going to let you know about it.

Nice post btw. Gotta spread the rep

 

[bah007]

JJ Watt only had seven his last year. Lol!

Watt was also used primarily as an interior run stuffer because of his size and the Big Ten being so run-heavy. He wasn't a guy who got to rush from the edge on every play like Clowney.

 

[bah007]

In this thread I have learned that Clowney is the only college football player who has ever witness a teammate suffer a serious injury.

And before you pop off at me too, I like Clowney. I don't necessarily like him as a fit for our defense, but I do think that he is the most physically gifted athlete in this draft.

 

[Dan B.]

Would y'all be ok with it if Clowney alternates between shining and taking a play off, but we have our best season ever and win 85% of our games with a top 10 D? That's what even the haters say he did last year.

 

[Texian]

Seeing how easily Blake Bortles was able to avoid any Clowney pressure, one can only imagine the field day Andrew Luck will have against Jadevon.

 

[disaacks3]

Would y'all be ok with it if Clowney alternates between shining and taking a play off, but we have our best season ever and win 85% of our games with a top 10 D? That's what even the haters say he did last year.

SC finished #11 in total D and had an 11-2 record for three straight years.

I haven't met anyone who thinks Clowney alone will make the Texans a top-10 Defense and create 13 wins.

I think its more realistic having him alternate plays to keep fresh until he's ready for a full NFL grind.

 

[Dan B.]

SC finished #11 in total D and had an 11-2 record for three straight years.

I haven't met anyone who thinks Clowney alone will make the Texans a top-10 Defense and create 13 wins.

I think its more realistic having him alternate plays to keep fresh until he's ready for a full NFL grind.

S. Carolina finished ranked higher than they ever have -- their first time in the top 5. My apologies on the D however. Their D was actually ranked 11th out of 120 (again their highest ever), rather than 10th. Judging by some of the comments here (not you specifically) I suspect there are people on this thread who actually think that Clowney held them back -- that the Gamecocks were that good defensively despite Clowney.

I'm sure they will alternate plays with him. I doubt he plays 100% of the snaps after all, but let's not pretend that he won't be a factor in the game when he's in there.

 

[IDEXAN]

So here's a question for ya', man: NFL teams are seeing the same game tape and one of them will probably make Clowney a top 5 pick, so do you think pro scouts and NFL front offices do not understand what they are seeing?

We can dismiss the media and fans, but at the end of the day, professional football teams are looking at this player as a very high draft prospect. I have very little doubt that several teams in the first ten picks will grab him if he is available, so it is not like one team just doesn't get it. And I honestly doubt any of these teams listen to "draft experts" in the media or fan boards/radio shows.

btw, don't blast me, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I'm looking forward to the draft to finally root for whoever they pick,

Sorry don't have any documentation or reference here, but the other day on an ESPN NFL segment a young reporter named Fields who previously worked for Belichick/Patriots front office said he heard Belichick say once, "we don't draft for production, we draft traits". I take "traits" to me skills, maybe others might have a different interpretation ?

 

[deucetx]

In this thread I have learned that Clowney is the only college football player who has ever witness a teammate suffer a serious injury.

And before you pop off at me too, I like Clowney. I don't necessarily like him as a fit for our defense, but I do think that he is the most physically gifted athlete in this draft.

Heh, first, I'm not popping off. How folks are defensive about these guys is beyond me. I can reason in choosing many of those mentioned so don't get into the favoring one over the other as if they are paying my bills.

But with that said I would say that is only part of a view of it. I don't like that Clowney slacked last year. I have a hard time believing he did otherwise. I think it's a crap move and not how the game should be played. Though I feel that way and don't approve it still doesn't stop me from understanding.

It's not just seeing a teammate go down with an injury. It's also the fact that teammate was spoken of to be a solid high draft pick as well. Not that many of those players that were in that pedigree that go down. But you have to add that soon after that someone writes an article at South Carolina that he could sit out the entire season since no matter he will most assured be a high draft pick with no risk of injury which he could lose with such a grievious setback i.e. Lattimore. Not only is this article written but it is then brought up on ESPN and discussed in high detail. So their words and thoughts were live and in color for him with this teammate on how much he could lose.

Guesswork but someone probably got in his ear as well. Agent, family member, whatever and that didn't help his mindset. We're still talking young men here. These guys are not 'generally' built for such life decisions and that is exactly what it is for him at that point. So he may have been influenced without even thinking he was. It still falls on him in the end but I can't act like I don't understand.

He's still a person and a young one. That means he can make poor decisions and choices like any other. Not going to condemn him to all hell and back (you're not but some seem to be) because of poor approach to his final season. It's his dream, his livelyhood, etc., that weighed along with the voices that such get from a hundred directions.

 

[Texecutioner]

Jamarcus was addicted to codeine and promethazine... Clowney doesn't even drink. He did drive over the speed limit, though, so there's that.

All feedback from teams who actually met and spent time with the kid are positive, very likeable, other prospects like him.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2305132#post2305132



So ding him for his down year, but Clowney is not some

bad kid. His personality is the polar opposite of someone like Mario, who was dark and even suicidal.

I shouldn't ding him in a season where he was in the Prime Time games several times and he had average games when he was fighting to be a #1 pick? Please. I will totally ding a guy who doesn't show up in big games. Randy Moss used to be the same way, and that's why I'll always ding him down the list of top NFL receivers ever. I'm sorry, but I kept looking to find this top NFL talent that was supposed to be the best pass rusher in college and every time I watched I never saw it. I saw the same type of Mario Williams player that everyone in Houston raved about when he played here that was never consistent. Watt had a down year statistically last season, but I still felt like he dominated. I still saw Watt all over the field causing havoc. I never saw that with Clowney.

Many of you need to look back on all of the DE busts from the last 10 years. There are a ton of them. These guys can be freakish athletes all they want, but if they don't have that endless motor and freakish desire to dominate all game long, I don't want any part of a player like that. He won't motivate his team and his attitude will rub off on other players. But NFL coaches will always draft freakish DE's very high in the draft. They always do, because they always want to find that next Demarcus Ware. I really wish that Clowney was the next Demarcus Ware, but I see nothing in his attitude on the field to make me believe it after what I saw last season in what was a contract year for him. If a player won't even go all out on his contract year, that is all I need to know about him. He might have a big season or two due to his abilities. I don't doubt that can happen. I don't think he'll be a guy that will dominate the league for 10 years though. And I would never draft a guy in the top 5 if I felt that way about him.

 

[Texecutioner]

Sorry don't have any documentation or reference here, but the other day on an ESPN NFL segment a young reporter named Fields who previously worked for Belichick/Patriots front office said he heard Belichick say once, "we don't draft for production, we draft traits". I take "traits" to me skills, maybe others might have a different interpretation ?

Everyone always looks at BB as this draft wizard and it's far from being true.

If BB didn't have Brady he'd possibly be a DC somewhere right now. Brady carries his ass every season. He is a great coach, but he us far from being some draft guru other than making fancy trades to get a lot of picks.

BB is the same guy who passed on Dez Bryant that was sitting there at like the 26th pick of the NFL for a lousy player like McCourtney. Had they drafted Bryant, they'd have another SB ring no question.

 

[bah007]

I also think it is incredibly silly to give Clowney so much credit for South Carolina's success on defense. He has been a big part but it's not like he is covering up weaknesses for ten terrible guys behind him.

In Clowney's first two years South Carolina had seven defensive players drafted. And they are likely to have three more drafted this year in addition to Clowney. That makes ten players in three years not even counting Clowney. And that's just on defense.

They have been an incredible defense during his three years. But they weren't chopped liver before he got there either, ranking #46, #15, and #14 in the nation in the three years leading up to his arrival.

 

[Texecutioner]

S. Carolina finished ranked higher than they ever have -- their first time in the top 5. My apologies on the D however. Their D was actually ranked 11th out of 120 (again their highest ever), rather than 10th. Judging by some of the comments here (not you specifically) I suspect there are people on this thread who actually think that Clowney held them back -- that the Gamecocks were that good defensively despite Clowney.

I'm sure they will alternate plays with him. I doubt he plays 100% of the snaps after all, but let's not pretend that he won't be a factor in the game when he's in there.

We don't have to pretend. He will be at times. But he wasn't all of the time at the school you keep talking about. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it were so.

 

[Double Barrel]

Easy answer, they see the "potential". Same reason teams drafted Ryan Leaf, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Dewayne Robertson, Mike Mamula, Courtney Brown, Derrick Harvey, Mike Williams, Vernon Gholston and on and on and on.

I get the potential angle and I set it up as an easy-to-answer question.

You have the benefit of hindsight being 20/20 vision with your examples. If only teams had such insight before making those draft picks. There is no guaranteed pick in the draft process. NONE of these players can offer 100% certainty that they are going to be great NFL players. Tell me which players will be in the HoF now and then I give that person major respect in about a decade.

That said, I think it is a bit foolhardy to take fans to task for perceived inability to judge game tape when pro teams are looking at the same tape and still consider him a top draft pick.

ALL of these picks are based on POTENTIAL. That's kind of a Captain Obvious observation.

There are a lot of absolute statements being made that seem more like shots in the dark than actual legit analysis. That was my point, not the softball question I posed.

The only consistent knock on Clowney pertains to his 'motor', and even that evaluation has its share of critics.

 

[Playoffs]

...on an ESPN NFL segment a young reporter named Fields who previously worked for Belichick/Patriots front office said he heard Belichick say once, "we don't draft for production, we draft traits". I take "traits" to me skills, maybe others might have a different interpretation ?

Field Yates.

As Gil Brandt says, teams draft based on their own projections within their positions. It's why a Tom Savage is drawing strong interest from NFL teams but, DraftTwitter is all up in arms...

Gil Brandt ‏@Gil_Brandt

Always has been about projection, not college results.

 

[Texecutioner]

The only consistent knock on Clowney pertains to his 'motor', and even that evaluation has its share of critics.

Sure, but why so many critics if it weren't true or if it were sensationalized? Way to much out there from the game tape, the coach's criticisms, and the over all lack of being consistent as a pass rusher. If this was his his season prior, I think no one would have a problem with him being the #1 guy honestly. I wouldn't have, but he created to many concerns last season to simply ignore.

And when you look at the amount of freakish level pass rushers that end up as busts that go in the top 10 every year, I think that "motor" question is a huge concern. A top flight pass rusher is such a big time weapon for your team. We know that having Watt here. Houston fans should also know about having an inconsistent one as well from watching Mario disappear the way he did a lot. Lets not forget that the Texans were never a great defensive team all of those years with Mario, so this one big time talent doesn't really make your team a great team. Hell, Allen has been the Vikings for years now and they've only been a dominant team one time since he has been there.

I don't see these concerns with Mack though. I think he is a much safer investment and could also bring a similar impact to the defense.

 

[bah007]

Heh, first, I'm not popping off. How folks are defensive about these guys is beyond me. I can reason in choosing many of those mentioned so don't get into the favoring one over the other as if they are paying my bills.

Obviously, that comment was not directed at you. It was directed at the people who get so emotionally involved in these prospects that they cannot even have a real discussion about them.

But with that said I would say that is only part of a view of it. I don't like that Clowney slacked last year. I have a hard time believing he did otherwise. I think it's a crap move and not how the game should be played. Though I feel that way and don't approve it still doesn't stop me from understanding.

It's not just seeing a teammate go down with an injury. It's also the fact that teammate was spoken of to be a solid high draft pick as well. Not that many of those players that were in that pedigree that go down. But you have to add that soon after that someone writes an article at South Carolina that he could sit out the entire season since no matter he will most assured be a high draft pick with no risk of injury which he could lose with such a grievious setback i.e. Lattimore. Not only is this article written but it is then brought up on ESPN and discussed in high detail. So their words and thoughts were live and in color for him with this teammate on how much he could lose.

Guesswork but someone probably got in his ear as well. Agent, family member, whatever and that didn't help his mindset. We're still talking young men here. These guys are not 'generally' built for such life decisions and that is exactly what it is for him at that point. So he may have been influenced without even thinking he was. It still falls on him in the end but I can't act like I don't understand.

He's still a person and a young one. That means he can make poor decisions and choices like any other. Not going to condemn him to all hell and back (you're not but some seem to be) because of poor approach to his final season. It's his dream, his livelyhood, etc., that weighed along with the voices that such get from a hundred directions.

I don't have a problem with this take at all. I can understand why those thoughts would cross his mind. What I don't like is acting on them the way that Clowney supposedly did. To put yourself above the rest of your team as if you are the only one that matters is a huge red flag to me. That's all I'm saying. And it is hilarious to me that people are apparently ready to fight to the death to dispute that it may be a potential concern.

 

[Dan B.]

I also think it is incredibly silly to give Clowney so much credit for South Carolina's success on defense. He has been a big part but it's not like he is covering up weaknesses for ten terrible guys behind him.

In Clowney's first two years South Carolina had seven defensive players drafted. And they are likely to have three more drafted this year in addition to Clowney. That makes ten players in three years not even counting Clowney. And that's just on defense.

They have been an incredible defense during his three years. But they weren't chopped liver before he got there either, ranking #46, #15, and #14 in the nation in the three years leading up to his arrival.

Clowney's first year was in 2011

USC defensive rankings (overall record and final rank in parenthesis):
2008: 28th (7-6 / NR)
2009 22nd (7-6 / NR)
2010: 49th (9-5 / #22)
2011: 13th (11-2 / #9)
2012: 13th (11-2 / #8)
2013: 11th (11-2 / #4)

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/footba...=Total&sort=1137&conference=I-A_all&year=2012

Their team and their defense was better with Clowney than it ever was without him. I'm not saying he's the sole reason for that, but the evidence is obvious. They were also better last year than ever before. Whether they could have been even better with a 100% Clowney is debatable -- maybe they go from #4 to National Champs, who knows? Clowney could also have sacrificed his individual stats for team success last year however, which is something that people typically don't crap all over athletes for.

 

[IDEXAN]

Everyone always looks at BB as this draft wizard and it's far from being true.

If BB didn't have Brady he'd possibly be a DC somewhere right now. Brady carries his ass every season. He is a great coach, but he us far from being some draft guru other than making fancy trades to get a lot of picks.

BB is the same guy who passed on Dez Bryant that was sitting there at like the 26th pick of the NFL for a lousy player like McCourtney. Had they drafted Bryant, they'd have another SB ring no question.

My post was in response to another poster's (Double Barrel), question about what criteria, what insight the people who Draft for a living use in their decision making process, and I used the Belicheck remark as an example.
I'm sure there are those who have a better history in the Draft than the Pats HC, and there's probably also quite a few very wise picks he made during his time in NE. But you didn't comment directly on his remark about valuing "traits" over "production" ?

 

[IDEXAN]

Field Yates.

As Gil Brandt says, teams draft based on their own projections within their positions. It's why a Tom Savage is drawing strong interest from NFL teams but, DraftTwitter is all up in arms...

Gil Brandt ‏@Gil_Brandt

"Field Yates" - Thank You !
And re Brandt's comment about "Always has been about projection, not college results.", that's interesting and sounds like another way of discounting a prospects production.

 

[Playoffs]

And re Brandt's comment about "Always has been about projection, not college results.", that's interesting and sounds like another way of discounting a prospects production.

Or it was about Tebow.

 

[bah007]

Clowney's first year was in 2011

USC defensive rankings:
2008: 28th
2009 22nd
2010: 49th
2011: 13th
2012: 13th
2013: 11th

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/footba...=Total&sort=1137&conference=I-A_all&year=2012

Yes, I know. Our numbers appear to be different.

https://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/mainpage.jsp

According to the NCAA's stats South Carolina's defense ranked in Total Defense:

2013 - #19
2012 - #11
2011 - #3
2010 - #46
2009 - #15
2008 - #14

They updated the website for the 2013 season:

http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/22

 

[Texecutioner]

My post was in response to another poster's (Double Barrel), question about what criteria, what insight the people who Draft for a living use in their decision making process, and I used the Belicheck remark as an example.
I'm sure there are those who have a better history in the Draft than the Pats HC, and there's probably also quite a few very wise picks he made during his time in NE. But you didn't comment directly on his remark about valuing "traits" over "production" ?

I really don't like his draft philosophy honestly. He has had a few great picks, but he isn't any draft guru. They pick system players and they don't like to pay guys because they think they always have some rookie who can fit the system, but it's taken BB years to get that defense back on track while he has used a lot of picks to do it and many have not been so great.

Honestly I wish I didn't have the concerns with Clowney. I agree 100% with all of the athletic talent and everything, but I think a lot of people forget about how important the player's mentality is in the long term that ends up effecting how good the guy really ends up being.