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Manziel

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Goatcheese said:
What exactly is "playing black"?

Did Warren Moon "play black"?

If they're just hating on Manziel (white guy) because he's too black (yeah, that makes sense), then why do most of the anti Manziel people want Bridgewater (who is actually black)?
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It's stereotyping. The idea of "playing black" means to use your athleticism a lot & showboat. "Playing white" means you use your intellect and play more reserved. So yes in your examples, Warren Moon and Teddy Bridgewater "play white" along with actual white guys like Brady, Manning, and Brees. Meanwhile Manziel & Kaepernick along with black guys like Vick, Young, & RG3 "play black".

It's dumb, I agree. But we humans love to classify. We can't handle our world unless we are able to neatly fit things, and even people, into perfect categories so as to easily understand the world we live in.
 
thunderkyss said:
If you're saying you'll reach & take him at 6.... I can understand that. But if you think he's the 6th best prospect in this draft, you gotta take him at 1 & not play any games.

We've only got two holes on the offensive line. RT & LG. & we might have one of the two on the team already.
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Maybe I'm misreading your post, but why wouldn't I take the guy I think is the best prospect rather than the 6th best at #1?
 
Lord Bills said:
absolutely agree on a lot of the flack manziel is getting is because of closet racists trying to pin fake scandals on him and this labeling of "playing black" is just more evidence of it.

i mean we are in texas right?

home of the bigoted republican tea party, jesus freaks, and unabashed racists. A lot of this manziel hate is coming from that area. They want their typical choir boy white guy with the fake perfect citizen act.

I absolutely love cocky, arrogant guys. Those guys are winners.

Usain Bolt
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Muhammad Ali
Lebron James
Floyd Mayweather Jr.

All cocky guys. All winners.


Havent we had enough "humble" qbs that have failed us time and time again?

Its also a generational thing. The older fans want that quiet, robotic, fake humble guy while the younger generation love that flashy, stylish, arrogant player.

Its always been this way since rock and roll.

Manziel fans are prime about to explode led zeppelin fans. While Blake Bortle fans are the old geezers who still cling to the stale old and utterly lame and safe Beatles records.

and LOL at the poster who said RG3 was humble.

loooooooooooooooooooooool

RG3 is the epitome of a fake humble nice guy. a guy who portrays one side to the public and in reality is a utterly selfish, narcissistic attention whore.
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Floyd Mayweather doesn't deserve to be on that list.
 
Dan B. said:
Maybe I'm misreading your post, but why wouldn't I take the guy I think is the best prospect rather than the 6th best at #1?
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It's the QB factor. If you need a QB & there's one in the draft that you feel really good about, you take him even if you think there are five better non QB prospects available. Simply because he is a QB & a QB has that much impact on the game.

Whether you take a guy 5 spots early or 6 spots early or even 10 spots early is purely subjective, for me, it's 5 spots..... 6 is a stretch (for me, determined by need, i.e. if your need is bad enough), 7 the guy has to be really special (i.e. Cam Newton), 8 there is no good reason in my mind to pass on 8 elite players.

In the Cam Newton example, he was rated at 16 (I think) but was taken #1 overall. I'm saying I wouldn't have done that, if I thought there were 15 players better than he was. I didn't rate the players in that draft, but using hindsight it's hard to see anyone thinking there were 16 better players in that draft... but that's hindsight for you. Even the six or seven that I would think were better, Cam has done his part to prove he was definitely the best player in that draft... I think.

Maybe the second best player.
 
Johnny Manziel Looking to Secure Numerous Trademarks
According to ESPN sports business reporter Darren Rovell, Manziel has filed for several trademarks in addition to the "Johnny Football" nickname, including "The House That Johnny Built."

On Wednesday, TMZ Sports reported that Manziel filed documents with the United States Patent and Trademark Office in an effort to secure the rights to multiple modifications of his name and number. Some of them include "JFF," "JMAN," "JMAN 2" and "ManzIIel."
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thunderkyss said:
It's the QB factor. If you need a QB & there's one in the draft that you feel really good about, you take him even if you think there are five better non QB prospects available. Simply because he is a QB & a QB has that much impact on the game.

Whether you take a guy 5 spots early or 6 spots early or even 10 spots early is purely subjective, for me, it's 5 spots..... 6 is a stretch (for me, determined by need, i.e. if your need is bad enough), 7 the guy has to be really special (i.e. Cam Newton), 8 there is no good reason in my mind to pass on 8 elite players.

In the Cam Newton example, he was rated at 16 (I think) but was taken #1 overall. I'm saying I wouldn't have done that, if I thought there were 15 players better than he was. I didn't rate the players in that draft, but using hindsight it's hard to see anyone thinking there were 16 better players in that draft... but that's hindsight for you. Even the six or seven that I would think were better, Cam has done his pa arrt to prove he was definitely the best player in that draft... I think.

Maybe the second best player.
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But let's stay with that 2011 Draft and do some more analysis.
OK, I think you are saying that Watt has been the best player in that Draft but Cam has been the MVP in that Draft, but let's look at some other QBs/players taken that year. Gabbert @ #10 and Ponder @ #12 were mistakes, though it's still soon to write them off entirely, but clearly 2 of the 3 first-round QBs in 2011 have been big disappointments.
What about later picks like second-rounders Andy Dalton and Colin Kaepernick or even third rounder Ryan Mallet. Would you trade JJ Watt right now for Dalton, Kaepernick, or Mallet. And if not, can't that be compared to drafting Clowney this year and later Garrappolo, or Mettenburg, or McCarron vs taking Bortles or Manziel with the #1 ?
 
IDEXAN said:
...but let's look at some other QBs/players taken that year. Gabbert @ #10 and Ponder @ #12 were mistakes, though it's still soon to write them off entirely, but clearly 2 of the 3 first-round QBs in 2011 have been big disappointments.


What about later picks like second-rounders Andy Dalton and Colin Kaepernick or even third rounder Ryan Mallet. Would you trade JJ Watt right now for Dalton, Kaepernick, or Mallet. And if not, can't that be compared to drafting Clowney this year and later Garrappolo, or Mettenburg, or McCarron vs taking Bortles or Manziel with the #1 ?
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A lot of that depends on the team & a couple of other variables like where we are in the draft who is available & who we expect to be available. I think I agree with you if you're saying we should take Clowney in the first then one of the other QBs in the second (but I want Robinson/McCarron).

Carolina, who took Cam and didn't have a second round pick, so they didn't have that option. Had they taken Von Miller, Nick Fairley, or Marcell, they wouldn't have been able to get a QB until 65.... they could have gotten Mallet, but that's a heck of a gamble. Unless they had Tj Yates in that same tier, which I doubt.

Jacksonville could have done it differently & gotten a better defensive player & a QB who couldn't do much worse than Gabbert..... but he was the #1 rated QB at the time & they were so screwed up it probably wouldn't have mattered.

Minnesota could have done it differently & gotten a better defensive player... but I liked their defense at the time & Ponder looked like a good pick to me. I didn't grade QBs for that draft (I didn't think we'd be taking one), then watching Ponder in the NFL, he looked like he had all the tools, with a decent defense & Adrian Peterson, you'd have thought he would make it. Sometimes, things just don't work out.

A big part in this... is not just the team but the staff to develop a QB. If Kubiak was here, I'd be willing to take a shot on a lot more of these QBs. I think he's every bit as good as "they" say he is at developing QBs. Bill O'Brien, I don't know but what I hear leads me to believe he's got game & can take a guy projected to be a starter & help him become a pro bowl level QB. That same QB can go to Oakland & I wouldn't feel as good about his chances of being successful.
 
thunderkyss said:
A lot of that depends on the team & a couple of other variables like where we are in the draft who is available & who we expect to be available. I think I agree with you if you're saying we should take Clowney in the first then one of the other QBs in the second (but I want Robinson/McCarron).

Carolina, who took Cam and didn't have a second round pick, so they didn't have that option. Had they taken Von Miller, Nick Fairley, or Marcell, they wouldn't have been able to get a QB until 65.... they could have gotten Mallet, but that's a heck of a gamble. Unless they had Tj Yates in that same tier, which I doubt.

Jacksonville could have done it differently & gotten a better defensive player & a QB who couldn't do much worse than Gabbert..... but he was the #1 rated QB at the time & they were so screwed up it probably wouldn't have mattered.

Minnesota could have done it differently & gotten a better defensive player... but I liked their defense at the time & Ponder looked like a good pick to me. I didn't grade QBs for that draft (I didn't think we'd be taking one), then watching Ponder in the NFL, he looked like he had all the tools, with a decent defense & Adrian Peterson, you'd have thought he would make it. Sometimes, things just don't work out.

A big part in this... is not just the team but the staff to develop a QB. If Kubiak was here, I'd be willing to take a shot on a lot more of these QBs. I think he's every bit as good as "they" say he is at developing QBs. Bill O'Brien, I don't know but what I hear leads me to believe he's got game & can take a guy projected to be a starter & help him become a pro bowl level QB. That same QB can go to Oakland & I wouldn't feel as good about his chances of being successful.
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So is there a QB who is a better pro prospect than Cam this year ?
 
Playoffs said:
Johnny Manziel Looking to Secure Numerous Trademarks
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Don't be distracted by what I've done in the past. Don't worry about drafting me........Now, I'm all about Football.............From now on, I will eat, sleep and spend Football..............Johnny Football...........

images
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Don't be distracted by what I've done in the past. Don't worry about drafting me........Now, I'm all about Football.............From now on, I will eat, sleep and spend Football..............Johnny Football...........
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His work ethic has never been questioned by his coaches or scouts. The main issue is can he avoid getting caught up up distractions. And considering how well he focused this past season and how much he worked and improved from the bowl game till his pro day, he's done a pretty good job of showing that he is for real.
 
Stemp said:
Considering how much he worked and improved from the bowl game till his pro day, he's done a pretty good job of showing that he is sincere.
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You really think a 3 mos effort with millions of dollars on the line is a good indication of anything?

This is one of those one way street things. Failing during a 3 mos period would have been a major black mark. Succeeding for 3 mos should be a "he damn well better have."
 
infantrycak said:
You really think a 3 mos effort with millions of dollars on the line is a good indication of anything?

This is one of those one way street things. Failing during a 3 mos period would have been a major black mark. Succeeding for 3 mos should be a "he damn well better have."
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It's not just three months. once the season started he was all business. And when the season ended, he didn't go out partying or making scenes, he went out and worked to improve and get ready for the NFL.
 
Stemp said:
His work ethic has never been questioned by his coaches or scouts. The main issue is can he avoid getting caught up up distractions. And considering how well he focused this past season and how much he worked and improved from the bowl game till his pro day, he's done a pretty good job of showing that he is for real.
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No man, that's not the only issue, it's just one of several. Another is can he contain himself from scrambling around like it's a sandlot game so he won't get his narrow little azz broken into a thousand pieces by a LB or safety ? And if he's able to do that, what kind of a QB is left without the razz-ma-tazz of Johhny Football ? And can he put enough mustard on his deep out to get it there without it being picked off ? And is he able to handle coaching, or does he already consider himself such an expert on QB play in the NFL that there's no one left to teach him anything ?
 
Stemp said:
It's not just three months. once the season started he was all business. And when the season ended, he didn't go out partying or making scenes, he went out and worked to improve and get ready for the NFL.
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Then criticize your own statement. You said bowl game to pro day. That's what I responded about.
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
So is there a QB who is a better pro prospect than Cam this year ?
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Like I said, I didn't grade those QBs for that draft, so I don't really know what they looked like coming out of college. I'm just going by where they were rated by the regular media folk.

As it is, it's difficult to take out hindsight. Knowing what I know now, I do not expect anybody in this draft to have the impact Cam had on his team as a rookie.
 
thunderkyss said:
Like I said, I didn't grade those QBs for that draft, so I don't really know what they looked like coming out of college. I'm just going by where they were rated by the regular media folk.

As it is, it's difficult to take out hindsight. Knowing what I know now, I do not expect anybody in this draft to have the impact Cam had on his team as a rookie.
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The concerns on Cam IIRC , was his experience as a college football player and the offense he ran . There was no doubt about the physical part .

At Auburn he won the Heisman and a National Championship so he had the pelts on the wall .

Having said all that , it would have been hard to pick a QB 1st in 2011 .
 
Did Roger Staubach, Fran Tarkenton, and John Elway "play black"? All three of these dudes could scramble with the best of them. Difference between their styles and many modern QBs is that they would scramble to get someone open. Many of today's QBs seem to be run-when-primary-WR-is-covered.

Go back and look at highlights of Staubach, Tarkenton, or Elway. Those guys could run for dozens of yards behind the line of scrimmage. But that was before QBs wore virtual skirts. They knew defenders could knock the crap out of them if they tries to run vertical.

The whole "playing black" thing should be a description that fans and media avoid and do not fall into the trap of using. It's ridiculous and ignores the greats of NFL history. JMO
 
Say Watt said:
It's stereotyping. The idea of "playing black" means to use your athleticism a lot & showboat. "Playing white" means you use your intellect and play more reserved. So yes in your examples, Warren Moon and Teddy Bridgewater "play white" along with actual white guys like Brady, Manning, and Brees. Meanwhile Manziel & Kaepernick along with black guys like Vick, Young, & RG3 "play black".

It's dumb, I agree. But we humans love to classify. We can't handle our world unless we are able to neatly fit things, and even people, into perfect categories so as to easily understand the world we live in.
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Just an fyi, Colin kaep is black.
 
Double Barrel said:
Did Roger Staubach, Fran Tarkenton, and John Elway "play black"? All three of these dudes could scramble with the best of them. Difference between their styles and many modern QBs is that they would scramble to get someone open. Many of today's QBs seem to be run-when-primary-WR-is-covered.

Go back and look at highlights of Staubach, Tarkenton, or Elway. Those guys could run for dozens of yards behind the line of scrimmage. But that was before QBs wore virtual skirts. They knew defenders could knock the crap out of them if they tries to run vertical.

The whole "playing black" thing should be a description that fans and media avoid and do not fall into the trap of using. It's ridiculous and ignores the greats of NFL history. JMO
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Don't forget Steve Young.
 
I watched Sound FX - Tony Romo today and I'll be dadgum if I didn't see a lot of Tony Romo playing style in Johnny Manziel.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
You also saw a QB that has suffered his share of injuries.........and Romo is 6'2" and ~240 pounds.
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If I'm not mistaken, with the exception of Brett Farve, all QBs get injured...just sayin. Even the GREAT 6'5" QBs Brady and Manning have missed a season due to injury.
 
Instead of solving the Texan Franchise QB issue seems Kubiak set them back. Let's examine history & not repeat same mistakes. either reaching #1 overall to address position then claim he can be saved or give up a butt load of picks to bring in a #2 starting QB.
 
Texian said:
If I'm not mistaken, with the exception of Brett Farve, all QBs get injured...just sayin. Even the GREAT 6'5" QBs Brady and Manning have missed a season due to injury.
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You really think that is a good comparison? Manning played 13 seasons without missing a game. Manziel's (or any QB's) odds of making 13 seasons period are small.
 
beerlover said:
Instead of solving the Texan Franchise QB issue seems Kubiak set them back. Let's examine history & not repeat same mistakes. either reaching #1 overall to address position then claim he can be saved or give up a butt load of picks to bring in a #2 starting QB.
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Schaub , before the many injuries he suffered was one of the most prolific passers in the league over a multi-year span. I find it very difficult to say Kubiak set them back .... Unless of course he paid Fat Albert to break Matts foot.

Injuries are what set the Texans back at the QB position ....
 
Corrosion said:
Schaub , before the many injuries he suffered was one of the most prolific passers in the league over a multi-year span. I find it very difficult to say Kubiak set them back .... Unless of course he paid Fat Albert to break Matts foot.

Injuries are what set the Texans back at the QB position ....
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We'll just have to agree to disagree regarding that point. Talent sorely lacking in both players & every player brought in to "manage" the QB position. Luck has never favored steel blue, my point remains a QB guru should know better, be able to make adjustments & roll with it in a competent manner. Bridgewater is for sure more talented than anyone who has ever suited up to play QB as a Texan. Manziel has more competitive nature than Carr/Schaub combined plus he relates well with teammates.

Injuries are part of the game. I'm not concerned with either Manziel or Bridgewater getting injured more often because of size or measureable than any other QB prospect, they have pocket awareness ability to extend plays & huge heart for the game. Measure that!
 
beerlover said:
We'll just have to agree to disagree regarding that point. Talent sorely lacking in both players & every player brought in to "manage" the QB position. Luck has never favored steel blue, my point remains a QB guru should know better, be able to make adjustments & roll with it in a competent manner. Bridgewater is for sure more talented than anyone who has ever suited up to play QB as a Texan. Manziel has more competitive nature than Carr/Schaub combined plus he relates well with teammates.
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Where I fault Gary, is that Matt Schaub is not special. He never has been. He's pretty good & Gary made him look great at times, but he was never special.

So if I'm Gary Kubiak, I'm going to ride him until the wheels fall off, which he did & they did. However, I'd have been looking for a guy who might be special... maybe that's Keenum, maybe that's why we brought Lienart in, I don't know. But we passed on Mallet, taking Tj instead (maybe he thought Tj was special, I don't know)...

But when it came time to make a change at the QB position, we looked ill prepared. Tj wasn't ready to go & it didn't look like he wanted to help Case too much.

It took Harbaugh a year & a half to realize Alex Smith wasn't special & he was much better prepared to move forward than Kubiak was after seven seasons.
 
It's just not done, but I've always thought it would be a good idea, when the occasion allowed, to play your second string QB with the first team, during the season.
 
thunderkyss said:
But we passed on Mallet, taking Tj instead (maybe he thought Tj was special, I don't know)...
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You keep saying this. TJ was taken 2 rounds (78 picks) later than Mallett. They weren't in any kind of competition. Usually when people talk about passed on it is in connection with someone picked higher where they had an opportunity to make the choice like taking Pitts one pick in front of Portis.
 
thunderkyss said:
Where I fault Gary, is that Matt Schaub is not special. He never has been. He's pretty good & Gary made him look great at times, but he was never special.

So if I'm Gary Kubiak, I'm going to ride him until the wheels fall off, which he did & they did. However, I'd have been looking for a guy who might be special... maybe that's Keenum, maybe that's why we brought Lienart in, I don't know. But we passed on Mallet, taking Tj instead (maybe he thought Tj was special, I don't know)...

But when it came time to make a change at the QB position, we looked ill prepared. Tj wasn't ready to go & it didn't look like he wanted to help Case too much.

It took Harbaugh a year & a half to realize Alex Smith wasn't special & he was much better prepared to move forward than Kubiak was after seven seasons.
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I can accept your logic. While I admire & fall victim to loyalty in life as a general rule this is a business under constant change, ebb & flow so you must embrace change & not let it be your downfall.

I'm not convinced Nick Foles is all that but I know Chip Kelly is & initial results are in- a resounding success. I'm really hoping, although I don't know him nearly as well that Bill O'Brian has similar success.
 
thunderkyss said:
Where I fault Gary, is that Matt Schaub is not special. He never has been. He's pretty good & Gary made him look great at times, but he was never special.

So if I'm Gary Kubiak, I'm going to ride him until the wheels fall off, which he did & they did. However, I'd have been looking for a guy who might be special... maybe that's Keenum, maybe that's why we brought Lienart in, I don't know. But we passed on Mallet, taking Tj instead (maybe he thought Tj was special, I don't know)...

But when it came time to make a change at the QB position, we looked ill prepared. Tj wasn't ready to go & it didn't look like he wanted to help Case too much.

It took Harbaugh a year & a half to realize Alex Smith wasn't special & he was much better prepared to move forward than Kubiak was after seven seasons.
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Anyone who leads the league in passing is a pretty special player. Schaub wasn't an all time great, but he was in the elite discussion in an era stacked with great QBs. When you have a guy that analysts are talking about on the same level as Rapistburger and E.Manning, you don't go out hunting for an upgrade.

Talking about Matt Schaub and Alex Smith in the same context of being "special" or not is just :mcnugget:
 
Goatcheese said:
Anyone who leads the league in passing is a pretty special player. Schaub wasn't an all time great, but he was in the elite discussion in an era stacked with great QBs. When you have a guy that analysts are talking about on the same level as Rapistburger and E.Manning, you don't go out hunting for an upgrade.

Talking about Matt Schaub and Alex Smith in the same context of being "special" or not is just :mcnugget:
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Schaub sometimes chewed up yardage in an offense meant for his skill set. Isn't that what many rant against, the "system QB"? I rooted for MS but he didn't perform well in other areas too frequently for my tastes. He was what we had with minimal opportunity to get a better QB for same costs.
 
Goatcheese said:
Anyone who leads the league in passing is a pretty special player. Schaub wasn't an all time great, but he was in the elite discussion in an era stacked with great QBs. When you have a guy that analysts are talking about on the same level as Rapistburger and E.Manning, you don't go out hunting for an upgrade.

Talking about Matt Schaub and Alex Smith in the same context of being "special" or not is just :mcnugget:
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... I really don't have an answer for that.

I mean, I agree with you & I'd throw Flacco & Ryan in that convo as well. Sucks that our team wasn't very good when he got here, those first 4 years were pretty much wasted.
 
beerlover said:
We'll just have to agree to disagree regarding that point. Talent sorely lacking in both players & every player brought in to "manage" the QB position. Luck has never favored steel blue, my point remains a QB guru should know better, be able to make adjustments & roll with it in a competent manner.
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My point remains that after Schaub's injuries sapped him of his ability , ability that had him in a couple pro bowls , at the top of the league in passing statistics & winning back to back division titles , he had little to nothing to work with in terms of talent. You don't win games in the NFL when you lack talent at the most important position in the game.
He got a lot out of that shortage of talent , it just didn't equate to Wins. When teams made adjustments , Keenum fell apart. Several games were a tale of two halves.

That lack of talent I put on the guy who's job it is to build the roster (Rick Smith) but can give him a bit of a pass at the QB spot because what team has a player behind their starting QB that can pick up where the other guy left off without missing a beat. That answer would be .... None , Tom Brady wasn't sitting on the bench.

It was time for a coaching change here but I do find it difficult to blame the coach for a 2-14 record when his starting QB is broken physically , his backup cant read a defense , his star running back misses over half the season his backup plays with broken ribs , guy's like Jeff Tarpinian & Shilo Keo are playing meaningful time and 5 draft picks end up on IR or off the team.
At the end of the season , this team had street FA's in the backfield carrying the ball.

Last season Kubiak was coaching the perfect disaster, he didn't stand a chance. The fact that he was able to keep them competitive , 9 of those 14 losses were by 7 points or less says a lot about his ability as a coach.


Blaming Gary for "setting the franchise back at the QB position" is ludicrous. Injury to Schaub set them back. They went from having a pro bowl quarterback to a broken quarterback.


Bridgewater is for sure more talented than anyone who has ever suited up to play QB as a Texan. Manziel has more competitive nature than Carr/Schaub combined plus he relates well with teammates.

Injuries are part of the game. I'm not concerned with either Manziel or Bridgewater getting injured more often because of size or measureable than any other QB prospect, they have pocket awareness ability to extend plays & huge heart for the game. Measure that!
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I wont argue that , both are probably better prospects than any the Texans have had throughout their history.
I'm not concerned with either getting hurt either. I prefer Manziel but wouldn't complain about the team taking either of them knowing how important the position is.

beerlover said:
Instead of solving the Texan Franchise QB issue seems Kubiak set them back.
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You simply cannot stand behind that statement.
 
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