bhsman
Rookie
If Clowney's sole goal was to get paid, why risk getting injured when he could have sat out? Or if he has effort questions, why continue to work out and play so many snaps?
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Clowney, then what?
- Thread starter thunderkyss
- Start date
If Clowney's sole goal was to get paid, why risk getting injured when he could have sat out? Or if he has effort questions, why continue to work out and play so many snaps?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Because it isn't in his control and would have looked even worse.
Bottom line there are only 2 broad possibilities unless someone is going to claim he didn't have an underwhelming season:
He was giving 100% and had an underwhelming season despite his effort, or
He half assed it, under whatever logic went through his mind, resulting in an underwhelming season.
Probably
Especially if Slick Rick has anything to do with the pick. Slick doesn't remind me of a risk taker among other things that will make Slick not a good GM. BTW, if JM is the pick I don't want to hear how Slick took a risk. That will be a boardroom BoBBy call.
#2 FTW counselor would be my vote.
Thanks
bhsman
Rookie
First accusations of lazy that the tape doesn't back up, and now baseless accusations of drug use? Never change, internet.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
No one needs to make baseless accusations. YOu can just watch any number of games last season and watch how average he looks.
But hey, don't let me deter you from being obsessed with his abs, his height, his speed, and his other measurables that really don't mean jack when he doesn't have a ton of heart on the field to go all out on every play. Knock yourself out.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Well if you feel that he hasn't matured mentally then what in the hell kind of logic are you using to think that he'd be a good guy to waste a #1 pick on in the draft. Mario Williams had these same issues but not even as bad. Why on earth would you want any player in the first round who hasn't "matured mentally?" I don't get that at all especially when the NFL is full of so many talented numskulls that waste their careers. Hell, every year the first round has a ton of them. The last thing I'd ever waste on a #1 pick is a guy who hasn't matured mentally. I'd easily take the lesser talent and be a lot happier with the safer investment. Clowney should have dropped out of the top 10 and even the top 15 maybe at this point, and then maybe he'd wake up and learn from his mistakes of this season. The problem is that the media and the scouts keep hyping this guy, and the likelihood of him not maturing for a while is a lot higher. If an average season that is disappointing doesn't teach a guy a lesson, I damn sure wouldn't expect it to for a while when he hasn't yet had to experience the misfortunes and consequences of his lack of effort on the field.
bhsman
Rookie
Aside from that one guy here most people just piggybacked on the idea that he was lazy despite not watching any tape because it's easier to just go '3 sacks!' and not put any effort into their research. Ironic, really.
Oh man some guy is literally not a clone of Cushing we should ignore all the things that actually make him a good player for his position.
Your hat's still too tight, Texecutioner. Don't push yourself too hard.
Man it would be scary if you could mix Ryan Shazier's personality, the way he plays the game, with Clowney's skill set. Too bad Clowney shows a lot of the signs of an underachiever who would probably be gone after his first contract. How do you have that skill set and only get 3 sacks in your "contract" year???
bhsman
Rookie
Not to take away from your point, but Shazier has a pretty good skill-set as well. I think he had the best vertical and broad jump.
As for Clowney, people keep harping on the sack thing but A) he was schemed against all year and B) he still was near the top of all college in stuff like pressures and had a good number of TFLs. Him getting so much attention in blocking still let his teammates get single coverage in blocking, which is why you see guys like Kelcy Quarles and Chaz Sutton getting double-digit blocks while Clowney gets 3.
Stephen White, a former NFL defensive end, went into detail about Clowney:
His conclusion? Due to Clowney's great combination of height, speed, size, and - most importantly - core strength and balance, the Texans not only should take him first overall (no questions asked) and put him at a pass-rushing 3-4 OLB position.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Are you claiming Clowney faced unique opposition far in excess of that faced by Julius Peppers, Mario Williams, Demarcus Ware, Dwight Freeney, etc.?
bhsman
Rookie
I would legitimately be interested if you have that sort of data on hand to compare with Clowney, but going by your phrasing I'm assuming you're going for some dumb loaded question to set up a "WELL THEY STILL PRODUCED BECAUSE ALL SITUATIONS ARE EXACTLY THE SAME HURR." so I'll just say that he was double-teamed a lot this last year, not counting plays almost never going to his side.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I think dumb would be assuming or asserting Clowney was game planned against more than other players throughout college football history. It defies all logic. If you want to assert Clowney faced unique opposition it's your burden to prove.
Nice job at gussying up "I got nothing and don't want to admit the obvious" with a "but, but, maybe the situations were different. You haven't accounted for how many plays Clowney had the sun in his eyes."
Steven white doesn't think so.
Say Watt
Hall of Fame
This has been my question. I keep hearing all of the Clowney defenders even all the way up the ranks (in Houston I mean) to pretty good football minds in Lance Z and Charlie Pallilo. I'm far from an expert but the "schemed against" and "constantly double teamed" excuses just seems like such a weak argument. What in the hell makes Clowney so much different than any of those other guys you mentioned (as well as tons more that have come into the NFL over the years) that magically excuses an absolutely piss poor season by Clowney?
If you are a stud player, you are going to get "schemed against." Heck, take a guy not even the quality of those you mentioned like Von Miller, and he was constantly double teamed and still dominated. I just don't get the hype surrounding Clowney other than the typical ESPN bs in which every single year they have to hype every prospect as the next game changing player. Ridiculous if you ask me.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
And I give a crap about that why?
There's 20,000 ex NFL guys out there and their opinions are all over the map about Clowney.
And actually, no he does not. He says Clowney got planned against a lot - a statement I have no disagreement with. He does not say Clowney got planned against more than all the other DE's in college history who kept producing.
"The Razorbacks double-teamed him on seven out of the eight passes that I thought were legitimate opportunities for him to get a good pass rush."
And there are many other quotes in there similar to that one. Maybe you should give a crap.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
It's insane. The oh my god athleticism is even annoying it is so overblown.
Demarcus Ware: 262 lbs, 4.56 40 yd, 6.83 3-cone, 38½ vert., 10 ft 7 in broad, 27 reps BP
Jadevon Clowney: 266 lbs, 4.53 40 yd, 7.27 3-cone, 37½ vert., 10 ft 4 in broad, 21 reps BP.
Oh my lord we have never seen such an athlete before.
I read just fine thanks. That refutes nothing I said.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Pretty much agree 100% with the last page of arguments being made by icak.
Seriously though, why the hell would anyone give a damn about what an ex-NFL player had to say regarding Clowney, good or bad?
Seriously though, why the hell would anyone give a damn about what an ex-NFL player had to say regarding Clowney, good or bad?
bhsman
Rookie
So do you actually have stats on those guys being double-teamed in college or just more hot air?
So, for those of you keeping score:
1) Clowney was double-teamed -> "Says who?"
2) X wrote an article detailing how and why -> "Who reads, anyway?"
bhsman
Rookie
...because he would have insight into plays and why certain things are important/unimportant? Why would you ask a person with experience about a topic you wish to know more about anything?
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
What insight is he bringing though? He watched some film, just like a scout would do, except he doesn't work in that field. So, he's not as trustworthy as a scout. I don't understand why you'd put hardly any stock into it, not more than any average person really. Having played the game doesn't make you an expert.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Come on, man.
You aren't seriously making this argument.
Do you really believe that Clowney is the only guy in the history of college football who's every been schemed against and double-teamed? Seriously?
Willie McGinest pointed to his own college career and how he had a lot of sacks one year, then teams started doubling him and his sack total fell to 5. If Willie McGinest -- in 1993 -- was getting doubled and schemed, you know guys who were more well-known as pass rushers have been facing the same thing for decades.
Now. Here's a problem with the Willie McGinest comparison. Although he was a great player in the pros, McGinest was NOT a great pass-rusher. In his 15 year career, he had double-digit sacks one time and that was 11. So that's not the pass-rusher Clowney wants to grow into.
As for stats for double-teaming and scheming? No. No one keeps those stats. So YOU don't have them for Clowney, either.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
I'm leaning toward Robinson at this point if we can't trade down for value.
Texian
Hall of Fame
It really has nothing to do with the Internet. IMHO after watching Clowney all day Sunday and Monday, the PC, running, not doing drills and the interviews, I thought he had a lackadaisical attitude, everything is humorous, often has a hey man whatever no big deal response to questions, when asked about goals or being goal oriented he said he had none, at times had half open eyes and talked with a lazy speech. My GUESS is he missed a lot of classes and did little individual film work. To me he appears to be a one trick pony and there is a reason coaches only played Clowney with his hand in the dirt. I have questions about his footballl IQ. Clowney was not effective against the run. This is my OPINION. Most of it developed after observing and studying Clowney closely for 2 days this week. His play of the last year certainly corroborates many of my observations.
Former Texans' NT and current 610 radio analyst Seth Payne says he's now on Board with the Texans taking Clowney. Anybody who knows Seth knows he's a sharp guy who's also got 10 years experience as an NFL defensive player and he says after watching Clowney's tapes from all of last year, especially in the second half of the year, that South Carolina opponents put the kind of resources (blocking) on Clowney that would never been done in the NFL because each defense has so much talent. Payne also said Clowney's skill set is undeniable.
Current Penn State HC, former Vanderbilt HC James Franklin.. Also disagrees with you.
"I dont think theres any doubt that he was probably the most game-planned against player in the country, "
You can hate the hype machine but the hype started when he was in high school and after his first year at SC and it was well deserved. One bad year after those amazing years shouldn't eliminate him from discussions. There will be phycological test that give teams a pretty good perspective wether or not he has the mental makeup to succeed in the NFL or not. Just about every professional scouting service, talking head x-player, opposing coaches and players that have gone against him out there still believes he IS the most talented player in this draft.
But hey why should anyone give a crap what they think right. They have only watched him, played against him and coached against him for years. You on the other hand have probably watched some YouTube highlights and maybe a couple of games this last year. You've probably spent more time bitching about the hype than actually watching him. We get it, you HATE THR HYPE!!! Unfortunately ( for you) the hype is backed by people with way more actual first hand knowledge of him than you or me or any other draftnik here. So I think I will give a crap what they say over you or others like you on this matter.
Why? For every Ryan Leaf there's a Randy Moss.
Perhaps, but I think a lot of teams would be happy with a 7-time Pro Bowler and 4-time All-Pro.
jradMIT
Veteran
I don't think there is any doubt he is the most talented player in the draft. But you cannot ignore the questions about effort, lack of production and work ethic. Nobody can say he wont put in the work, put in the time etc, but there is a risk he won't, more so than other guys. It sucks because if he was just average in that dept. there would be no discussion, I would even say if he had solid to better production last year there would be no discussion. But he didn't dominate like he should have bottom line. For whatever reason, that might not be the case going forward, but the uncertainty is too much IMHO.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I was in my car when he said all this....what you're leaving out is that he said he he had to "convince" himself to be ok with the texans taking clowney based on everything you said in your post...He also reiterated that he has gone back and forth daily about whether or not the texans should draft him or not.
Basically we could listen to him tommorrow and he could be convinced the texans shouldn't draft him.
Texian
Hall of Fame
The stat that was omitted and IMHO the more important is the 10yd split
Ware = 1.49; Clowney = 1.56
1.49 = explosive first step, only other DL/LB that I know of with a < 1.50 10 yd split is Clay Matthews III.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
He most definitely was game planned against. However, other great players have been game planned against and didn't disappear. Which is the argument many here are trying to make.
To what extent is the argument. Except with infr he just won't accept that he is a special talent based on one year.
No doubt about it. Defiantly should be a concern.
PapaL
Loose Screw
And there you have it folks. Ridiculous post of the day (RPOTD).
How many fails does Clowney have? Enlighten us.
bhsman
Rookie
I don't have a problem if people could point out that Ware, et al, weren't double-teamed as much as long as they actually post it. I can sit here and point out Clowney being double-teamed/chipped all day and people will continue to just go "You really think he got more attention than Ware?!?!" and just leave it at that.
I've put my money where my mouth is. Others can afford to do the same.
klockWork
Rookie
I don't like this news. This only means they will trade up to someone else to draft clowney.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Warning: Bleacher Report
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
He is very much unlike many of the teenage writers for the Bleacher Report:
B/R NFL National Lead Writer Mike Freeman previously was an NFL columnist for CBSSports.com. He has been a sportswriter for the New York Times, Boston Globe and Washington Post, among other papers. His books include "ESPN: The Uncensored History" (2001) and last year's "Undefeated: Inside the Miami Dolphins' Perfect Season."
Not to argue, but where did you get your numbers on Demarcus Ware?
ESPN says he was 6'4" 251 at the combine.
That was almost 10 years ago. NFL.com says he only weighs 258 now. That's a far cry from Clowney dropping 10 lbs to turn in those time.
I think Clowney fits the "freak" description more than he doesn't. I don't want the Texans to draft him (dreadlocks.... can't trust people with dreadlocks), but I'm hoping there's enough buzz around one of these players that compels another team to trade up to get... Clowney & Manziel are the most likely candidates, imo.
Dude can't hold down a job. Why should we listen to his analysis?
PapaL
Loose Screw
aussie_texan
Veteran
do you have high blood pressure mate??
you just got to relax a bit, its a message board made for fan debate this isn't some 500 year war.
ok you like bortles and you think clowney is a stoner, fine thats your opinion but for the sake of us all just take it down a peg.