badboy
Hall of Fame
when the QB gets a full season with a healthy starting RB & Oline. No one thinks TB or Bortles would do great with same line.
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Does Anybody still BELIEVE in Case Keenum?
- Thread starter Lord Bills
- Start date
Txn_in_FL
All Pro
It just comes across as if Keenum is the savior of this franchise and that his problems this year are not of his own making. I mean, he's the all time leading such and such for the NCAA, it can't be his fault.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Most Keenum fans recognize his shortcomings but want same other QBs get. Usually, QBs are given two seasons (yeah, yeah RG3, Luck blah blah blah) most get two. Case has had 1/2 a season behind an injured left and right tackle. Brooks was in first year as a starter. Wade Smith..whahaha.
Just be fair in evaluation.
Txn_in_FL
All Pro
I just don't believe that he has shown enough to not hunt for a new QB. I wanted him to come in and tear it up more than anything. I'm not hating on the kid, he's done great things, I just was hoping for more.
burro
probably drunk
Fair points, and it speaks to the importance of a good HC in a QB's development. Carr was never properly developed early on and was too broken to fix by the time Kubiak got here. Carr was also a lazy student, which doesn't appear to a problem with Keenum.
Of course QB was part of the problem, but the bottom line is that I'm not going to call Keenum a failure after his first season as a starter, in which he took over the lead role on a cartoonishly bad football team and performed 'okay', even showing flashes of goodness despite the ineptitude of his HC. At what point is a team's struggles out of the QB's control?
badboy
Hall of Fame
Schuab and Yates gone so of course Qb or 2 needed. I just want to see Newton healthy and Keenum with a full roster & Wade Smith gone.
revan
Waterboy
I wonder if Raiders fans say the same thing about Matt McGloin. Never seen such stubborness for a third string QB. Basically he needs the perfect coach, perfect OL, perfect scenario to succeed and he wasn't given a fair shot. Well if we had that perfect team he would still be on the inactive list and Schaub would be in the playoffs right now behind that perfect offense.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Spot on.
Same OL
43 sacks to 22
28th to 12th total offense.
27th passing to 11th.
21st rushing to 22nd
Oh and AJ to half a season of AJ
The QB makes a ton of difference. This season was sadly entertaining in this regard. The same OL went from doing an OK job, it's on Schaub, to Keenum doesn't have a chance behind them. The QB made a ton of difference all right - the rationalization flipped completely.
The one I liked best, was, "They didn't blitz Schaub as much."
Well duh... there's a reason for that.
I haven't seen anyone implicate that Keenum is "the savior of the franchise". I'm simply saying that he hasn't had a real evaluation because of the lack of coaching, running game, injuries to the O-line, and a team that completely quit midseason. He's good enough to be on the roster in training camp next season and I think he makes the roster as depth at QB.
I know you know I think any discussion about Keenum is fruitless, I just want to answer your questions.
Yes he saw blitzes in college and burned them badly.
The good teams eventually decided to drop eight instead, with varied results.
S.Miss made him worked hard for the money, while Penn St. Was shredded to pieces.
At least, O'Brien must have watched that game to evaluate his players when he took the HC job there.
The notion that he can't read defense is ridiculous.
The guy made up seventeen points against one of Saban's best defense as a freshman.
That team had some eight or nine defensive players drafted to the NFL, and the rest joined the pro level as UDFAs. That's as close to an NFL defense you'll ever get in college.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
1) We've been over this before with that Saban defense. It was his first year at Bama and only 4 guys from that starting defense were eventually drafted (and 2 were freshmen the year Keenum played them). That defense was literally nothing like the ones he's fielded the past 4 years.
2) "Reading" defenses in college is much different than the NFL, especially in an offense like Sumlin's at UH. All the adjustments were made on the sideline by the coaches. The progressions aren't full-field reads, they are half-field reads designed to make it easy for the QB to hit quick passes. He's not really even "reading the defense" on most of those plays. A lot of the time they would overload and get a 3-2 or run a combo route with a chip to get someone open. He usually would read a S or LB and whichever guy he didn't cover is who the ball went to.
I know you're a Keenum supporter and I'm not trying to start another argument here. Just pointing out some things I disagreed with in your post.
1. You're right. I mean 8 or 9 of all players on the team were drafted (maybe even more); and we know the offense can keep the opponent's offense off the field, limiting the opportunities.
Don't forget that Prince Hall was an All-American freshman the previous year, and was destined to be a first round draft pick until his career went astray.
And don't forget that the Tides was winning big until they had several players suspended.
Regardless, that team still had a lot of defensive players joining the NFL as UDFAs, some of them are still active.
What about Oregon that year? They had a good defense, including the entire backfield (I think) being drafted to the NFL, and Keenum was gaining on them, too.
The key is that he was a freshman.
2. Whether it was Sumlin or Briles, the offense was not a half-field read.
When I broke down a couple of games, play by play, in the college football forum at the time, I mentioned complete, whole-field read.
It was the same misconception as with Cam Newton, whose games I also broke down, not quite as extensively, but in depth enough to show that at times, he even made five reads (which means all reads), and I noted that it was one of the reasons why I strongly endorsed Newton as 1.1
I even mentioned some article in which Montana wasn't asked by Bill Walsh to go to a full read until his fourth or fifth year in the NFL, so yes, I do know about them things.
Obviously, a college defense is not going to be as extensive as in the pros.
I evaluated Kellen Moore and Russell Wilson, and I saw the difference in the offensive schemes.
That was why I was very adamant about wanting Wilson.
At the time, I even said that I don't know whether Wilson or Keenum faced more pressure (but both did, a whole lot more than the other QBs, including RGIII - who was third in "seeing pressure on a consistent basis.)
All three did well against pressures and blitzes.
The selling point for me is always that.
And it was why I wanted the Texans to take both Wilson and Keenum.
I'm a supporter of good QB's play, not just Keenum.
What I saw in Keenum the last 2-3 games weren't the guy I studied.
Remember a quote where Keenum said "I need to trust my protection better"; that was when it became counter-intuitive to him. He started hanging around in the pocket half to a second longer. That's not the optimum for shorter QBs.
Sure, you will have to find a balance before you can dream of being a Drew Brees.
How did Wilson kill the Texans?
Definitely not by staying in the pocket.
There's pros and cons.
There's a learning curve so that you can realize how much you can scramble, and when to scramble.
Hell, even Drew Brees was "ran out of town" before he found a happy place.
And remember, I'm not anti-Manziel either.
The short guys need to learn to maximize what they do best while minimizing what there stature limit them to.
I'm still very unconvinced about Keenum/
He's supposed to be a very smart QB, and that's the only way he can be a successful NFL QB.
I'm not going to stand behind stupid decision making.
Even if it's Brett Favre or Warren Moon.
I evaluated Kellen Moore and Russell Wilson, and I saw the difference in the offensive schemes.
That was why I was very adamant about wanting Wilson.
At the time, I even said that I don't know whether Wilson or Keenum faced more pressure (but both did, a whole lot more than the other QBs, including RGIII - who was third in "seeing pressure on a consistent basis.)
All three did well against pressures and blitzes.
The selling point for me is always that.
And it was why I wanted the Texans to take both Wilson and Keenum.
I'm a supporter of good QB's play, not just Keenum.
What I saw in Keenum the last 2-3 games weren't the guy I studied.
Remember a quote where Keenum said "I need to trust my protection better"; that was when it became counter-intuitive to him. He started hanging around in the pocket half to a second longer. That's not the optimum for shorter QBs.
Sure, you will have to find a balance before you can dream of being a Drew Brees.
How did Wilson kill the Texans?
Definitely not by staying in the pocket.
There's pros and cons.
There's a learning curve so that you can realize how much you can scramble, and when to scramble.
Hell, even Drew Brees was "ran out of town" before he found a happy place.
And remember, I'm not anti-Manziel either.
The short guys need to learn to maximize what they do best while minimizing what there stature limit them to.
I'm still very unconvinced about Keenum/
He's supposed to be a very smart QB, and that's the only way he can be a successful NFL QB.
I'm not going to stand behind stupid decision making.
Even if it's Brett Favre or Warren Moon.
PapaL
Loose Screw
What has he been doing the 2 years he's been here? If not learning the playbook, observing the then ProBowl starter, and trying to get better? You make it sound like he was pulled from the stands and asked to just play. He spent the entire 2012 season on the PS, as well as six weeks before becoming the starter in the 2013. When he looked good for those 2 weeks it was all his hard work but when he fell apart like Ford Pinto afterwards it was the coaches fault right?
dream_team
Hall of Fame
So why does Case get more than 8 games to prove he's a starting QB in this league, but TJ only got to play less than a half where he was instantly spotted a big deficit? I don't think either of them is the answer, but I'm just surprised how many people are willing to give him so many chances. He'll, why not give Schaub another chance with BOB?
eriadoc
Texan-American
Why does any QB get longer than 8 games? Hell, our newly drafted QB should get 8 games, right?
Well, to be objective, we also have to consider that Keenun did not get near the reps in OTA and pre-season that Schaub received, Keenum is basically a rookie being compared to an 8 year veteran, and Keenum did not have the benefit of two key anti-blitz personnel with Foster and Daniels out. Tate sucked at picking up blitzes and OD was always a short yardage security blanket for Shaub.
I'm not making a case for Keenum (no pun intended), but it's not an apples-to-apples comparison. I think each QB can be analyzed and evaluated independently of each other's circumstances. Schaub has no excuses for throwing four pick 6's in four games. With Keenum inexperience bit him in the ass and the team around him was falling apart.
I still don't think we have a franchise QB in the city of Houston right now, fwiw.
eriadoc
Texan-American
I think that should be obvious at this point. As I said in another thread, you have to be a pretty special QB to overcome a bad team. Whatever Keenum's good traits might be, special isn't one of them.
Trail.Blazr
Hooked up to a Kool-Aid IV
Not Sure. For anyone hoping to see that cinderalla story similar to 2001 Bledsoe/Brady, it wasn't witnessed with 2013 Schaub/Keenum. I don't care to get into any particular comparison's beyond Keenum wasn't the 2nd coming of Brady in 2013.
That said, I WOULDN'T want to be a QB behind the 2013 Texan's O-Line. I'm not saying he was without fault himself, but there are legitimate questions that would suggest success would be a stretch.
If I was a NO, I'd say dump him now. But I'd rather see him on the training camp roster and have to compete for a no.1 spot. I'd say that unlike season's past, where is UDFA status may have limited his looks/snaps/opportunities to crack the starting role legitimately, 2014 should be a different story.
That said, I WOULDN'T want to be a QB behind the 2013 Texan's O-Line. I'm not saying he was without fault himself, but there are legitimate questions that would suggest success would be a stretch.
If I was a NO, I'd say dump him now. But I'd rather see him on the training camp roster and have to compete for a no.1 spot. I'd say that unlike season's past, where is UDFA status may have limited his looks/snaps/opportunities to crack the starting role legitimately, 2014 should be a different story.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
For my point it doesn't have to be apples to apples on the QBs because I was not comparing them in my post - I was comparing fan reaction or "analysis." It doesn't really matter who the two QBs were or their backgrounds. The OL played pretty much the same throughout the season. When QB X was in the game "the OL was just fine, the bad results are on the QB." When QB Y was in the game it became "the OL sucks, you can't really blame the QB." The fact is they both sucked (in different ways) when pressured behind the same OL this season.
You don't think an injury can get worse?
You don't think a team morale can get worse?
More power to you. I'm a sunshiner, too, not to that extent, however.
Lord Bills
Destruction
why is it so hard for people to believe and understand that players can improve?
people act as if keenum is 30 years old and has been in the league for 5 years.
This is what happens in the social media age where everybody is a publisher and people make definitive statements based off one game, one year.
If BO'B is as great, talented, and intelligent as a lot of people make him out to be, he will see keenum's talent.
Players do improve.
people act as if keenum is 30 years old and has been in the league for 5 years.
This is what happens in the social media age where everybody is a publisher and people make definitive statements based off one game, one year.
If BO'B is as great, talented, and intelligent as a lot of people make him out to be, he will see keenum's talent.
Players do improve.
Lord Bills
Destruction
please stop that BS right now. Ive seen your act on the texans main message board and you are a hardcore matt schaub fan.
that post right there was a post made by anti matt schaub fans.
Very scumbag move to use it on keenum considering he's the one that didnt have the great line, the great running back, the great coach.
Matt Schaub had 3 pro bowl offensive linemen, a pro bowl running back, a pro bowl tight end, and a pro bowl wide reciever in johnson. Yet he had trouble scoring TDs and barely beat andy dalton.
How long has schaub been in the nfl? how long has keenum been in? smdh....
Did Keenum have six pro bowlers on offense like schaub did?
stop that nonsense right now. You can say that about schaub's seven years and loaded rosters, you cant say that about keenum and the situation he was put in this year.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Don't fly off into lala land. I am not aware of any injuries which got worse. If anything DB's injury was worst at the beginning of the season. Overall I do not believe the OL play changed appreciably.
This is hardly shocking news as people were being called out on having different standards for the OL very early on in Keenum starting. There was an almost immediate shift in the "analysis" of the OL.
But thanks for illustrating. Yeah, now Keenum didn't get the same OL play because of morale.
He had 4. How many does he need?
Lord Bills
Destruction
why would that be hard to believe?
you dont think players morale and determination make a difference in performance?
Thank you for your response ;
I'd like to tell to you another thing though; it wasn't like they were not trying hard.
Unlike others, I appreciate the works; it wasn't enough.
There are enough blame to go around.
Remember I was among the fews who did not put everything on Schaub last year?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Because I saw no such thing on the field. I saw very consistent line play with the exception of DB's early struggles lessening (not disappearing) and Brooks getting better.
Y'all are just throwing out hypothetical BS and assuming it all favors Keenum.
Lord Bills
Destruction
just because you didnt see it doesnt mean it didnt happen. There were plenty of times analysts and radio people have said texans players were just going through the motions.
There was nothing consistent about our oline play. Effort and competitive fire matter in the game.
You dont have great effort, determination and competitive fire and only get 2 wins in an nfl season with the talent we have on our team.
2-14.
That is a fact. Not hypothetical BS and assumptions. Ive followed sports enough to know that if you are in a bad losing situations, players dont try hard enough and just go through the motions. They already got their money.
Considering the whole drama surrounding matt schaub with fans reacting to his whole pick six situation (the burger, the freeway signs, fans heckling him in his house) along with the coaching staff's wishy washy decision on who should play quarterback, this team was cooked mentally and it showed on the field.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Reading is not your strong suit. I didn't say the OL played well or great. I said it played consistently over the season. Now try this concept on for size, a unit can be consistent at either a high or low level.
Lord Bills
Destruction
yea because david carr came mid season, thrust into the starting line up, and only had 8 games to prove himself with a 2-14 roster.
totally comparable to case keenum....
Lord Bills
Destruction
smdh.....
not gonna say anything for fear of being banned. You've clearly made your point with your countless red reps that you will go against me at anything.
peace moderator.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
yea because david carr came mid season, thrust into the starting line up, and only had 8 games to prove himself with a 2-14 roster.
totally comparable to case keenum....
Not sure what that has to do with my point, but whatev makes you sleep better at night.
Good day, Case
Lord Bills
Destruction
yea because david carr came mid season, thrust into the starting line up, and only had 8 games to prove himself with a 2-14 roster.
totally comparable to case keenum....
............................
As I've said; it's a fruitless debate.
I love my team; Inlove my O-line
It was OK for some to tear Myers apart a few years ago, but it's not constructive criticism when I mentioned Wade Smith's chronic knee problem while praising him as a warrior?
Did I say Keenum is a long shot from the start?
Yes I did.
So please understand that I know all the shortcomings.
At the same time; l still have to defend the underdog (while not being blind).
Fighting for the underdog is a good thing; hope is a good thing; blind hope is not.
I love my team; Inlove my O-line
It was OK for some to tear Myers apart a few years ago, but it's not constructive criticism when I mentioned Wade Smith's chronic knee problem while praising him as a warrior?
Did I say Keenum is a long shot from the start?
Yes I did.
So please understand that I know all the shortcomings.
At the same time; l still have to defend the underdog (while not being blind).
Fighting for the underdog is a good thing; hope is a good thing; blind hope is not.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
*sigh* My point was directed at some of y'alls post sounding similar to when he was around. Never did I compare one player to the other.
Reading comprehension is becoming a lost art in these parts
revan
Waterboy
Oh my gawd!!! What is your problem?! We are talking about a third string QB who didn't win a dam game and you go on a rampage giving negative rep and putting a comment to make sure I come back and see your reply?!. Dude get over yourself, the Texans are not going to build around Keenum to give him the perfect offense he needs to "succeed" and be "given a chance". And yeah I was a fan of Schaub, because he was part of the team, what am I supposed to do watch a Texans game and be in a pissed off mood the whole time because Schaub is at QB and not someone else??!!. The only difference between me and you is that I put away my #8 jersey and I'm ready for a change, you are still clinging to Keenum.
I will be the first to say I don't mind giving Keenum another look during TC and Preseason as Bridgewater gets caught up, but the Texans would be idiots for not taking a QB in the first round IMO. I am on the Bridgewater wagon if anyone can't tell. Can't stand Manziel and the Carr name has too much dark history with me... Bortles intrigues me though.
Tolar's Ghost
Waterboy
Here are two related questions:
Does O'Brien's give Keenum a chance to stick as a back-up?
Or does he cut him early on?
Does O'Brien's give Keenum a chance to stick as a back-up?
Or does he cut him early on?
eriadoc
Texan-American
I think he'll take a look at him. He knows Keenum is young, and perhaps more importantly, cheap. He'll take a look at him in training camp and see what he shows.
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
I think cheap with experience puts Keenum in an ok spot to stick in the 53.
PapaL
Loose Screw
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I absolutely still believe in Case Keenum. There have been countless sightings and several people have taken photographs of him in his natural environment. Granted they were usually blurry photos but what about the plaster casts of his tracks? How can any of you doubters explain that?
Before Texas was settled Native Americans in this part of the continent spoke of a mysterious short man-like creature that threw leather balls very far and sometimes with great accuracy. They left offerings for him in the woods and told stories around the fire about his exploits.
Before Texas was settled Native Americans in this part of the continent spoke of a mysterious short man-like creature that threw leather balls very far and sometimes with great accuracy. They left offerings for him in the woods and told stories around the fire about his exploits.
I'm in this camp. I'd be surprised if O'Brien doesn't give both Yates and Keenum at least a look.
Schaub is probably already a cap casualty. ...among other things.
I'm not stuck on first round.