Keep Texans Talk Google Ad Free!
Venmo Tip Jar | Paypal Tip Jar
Thanks for your support! 🍺😎👍

Texans hire Bill O'Brien as HC

Marshall said:
Those obsessed with cursing are usually linguistically and verbally challenged. Most respectable folk grow out of this phase shortly after Junior High.
Click to expand...

As far as respectable goes, it's how you personally define it. That obviously changes from person to person.


As far as your other statement, being verbally challenged, that isn't true at all. Just want to put that out there.
 
Marshall said:
Those obsessed with cursing are usually linguistically and verbally challenged. Most respectable folk grow out of this phase shortly after Junior High.
Click to expand...

The Pencil Neck said:
That's not true.

Of course, it depends on how you define "respectable."
Click to expand...

Of course it's not true. Pope Marshall has a tendency to wear "1950's era rose colored glasses".

But, far be it for the truth to remove those glasses:

Top Profanity in POTUS History

Turns out GW Bush loves the "f word". I think it's the most versatile of cuss words myself, being used as a noun, verb, adjective, etc., and it rhymes with so many other words that it's great for heavy metal and blues!

Before he even got into office, Bush’s profane tendencies were on display. In 1999, during an interview with Tucker Carlson for Talk Magazine, George W. Bush dropped the F-bomb several times.
Click to expand...

Turns out Mark Twain - you know, the American literary icon - LOVED to cuss. Had a special room just to do it in, too.

But my fav is Harry Truman. One of the last truly great presidents:

Give-‘em-hell Harry Truman loved to cuss. It was part of his tell-it-like-it-is, man-of-the-people appeal.

"I never did give them hell,” he said. “I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell."

During a 1960 presidential debate, Kennedy demurred when asked about whether Truman should apologize for nasty things he said about Nixon and Eisenhower.

“They are not my style, but I really don't think there's anything that I could say to President Truman that's going to cause him, at the age of 76, to change his particular speaking manner,” Kennedy said. “Perhaps Mrs. Truman can, but I don't think I can.”

Truman’s language became increasingly unvarnished after he left the White House in 1953.
Click to expand...

But hey, only "respectable folk" grow out of it. :rolleyes:

[/thread hijack]
 
11809224785_65e3f8767d_o.jpg


Just a vision i had from the......FUTURE !!!
 
Playoffs said:
O'Brien on ESPNU right now.

Breaking down film... very sharp, knows the players.
Click to expand...

OB kept emphasizing opponents can't let those FSU receivers get off the line untouched earlier this week -- Auburn did just that, knocked their timing off.
 
drs23 said:
Man if you can't get excited about wholesale changes like what's happening now then I guess one such as yourself should continue to wallow in your hate and misery.

I bet you're a real hoot around the christmas tree. :whistle:
Click to expand...
I, for one, can't get "excited" until there's something to get excited about. This new dude - and I mean O'Brien - hasn't done anything of note as yet. I do know this. I have much higher expectations from him than I did from Kubiak when he got here.
- He is inheriting a much, much better cast of characters than Kubiak inherited when he got here.
- He's not saddled with the owner's damaged "fair-haired boy" at QB and actually gets to pick his own guy.
- If Foster heals properly he'll have a stud at RB (and speaking of which, what are the odds of that Doc??).
- He'll have a stud at LT, a solid guy at center, and some decent prospects at the other O-line spots; something it took the previous regime three drafts to find and another year or two to fully develop.
- He has an all-time great at WR plus some potential studs at the other WR spots as well at TE.

All the offensive pieces - except QB - are here for this "offensive genius" to make work. And he gets to pick his own guy at QB.

I wanna see what he does with this loaded toy box before I get "excited".

Or will he throw it all away and start over like he did the whole coaching staff??
 
ObsiWan said:
I, for one, can't get "excited" until there's something to get excited about. This new dude - and I mean O'Brien - hasn't done anything of note as yet. I do know this. I have much higher expectations from him than I did from Kubiak when he got here.
- He is inheriting a much, much better cast of characters than Kubiak inherited when he got here.
- He's not saddled with the owner's damaged "fair-haired boy" at QB and actually gets to pick his own guy.
- If Foster heals properly he'll have a stud at RB (and speaking of which, what are the odds of that Doc??).
- He'll have a stud at LT, a solid guy at center, and some decent prospects at the other O-line spots; something it took the previous regime three drafts to find and another year or two to fully develop.
- He has an all-time great at WR plus some potential studs at the other WR spots as well at TE.

All the offensive pieces - except QB - are here for this "offensive genius" to make work. And he gets to pick his own guy at QB.

I wanna see what he does with this loaded toy box before I get "excited".

Or will he throw it all away and start over like he did the whole coaching staff??
Click to expand...


You sound critical of the fact that he fired the staff? Am I reading it right? If so, this staff should have been fired, and should not have been allowed to give input on the players. Period.

Kubiak's staff has no say in evaluating these players. O'Brien's staff does.

Also, yes, he inherits a better team than Kubiak did, but, remember: Kubiak inherited 2-14 and left behind 2-14.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
ObsiWan said:
I, for one, can't get "excited" until there's something to get excited about. This new dude - and I mean O'Brien - hasn't done anything of note as yet. I do know this. I have much higher expectations from him than I did from Kubiak when he got here.
- He is inheriting a much, much better cast of characters than Kubiak inherited when he got here.
- He's not saddled with the owner's damaged "fair-haired boy" at QB and actually gets to pick his own guy.
- If Foster heals properly he'll have a stud at RB (and speaking of which, what are the odds of that Doc??).
- He'll have a stud at LT, a solid guy at center, and some decent prospects at the other O-line spots; something it took the previous regime three drafts to find and another year or two to fully develop.
- He has an all-time great at WR plus some potential studs at the other WR spots as well at TE.

All the offensive pieces - except QB - are here for this "offensive genius" to make work. And he gets to pick his own guy at QB.

I wanna see what he does with this loaded toy box before I get "excited".

Or will he throw it all away and start over like he did the whole coaching staff??
Click to expand...

Obis, what incoming HC doesn't "throw it all away and start over like he did the whole coaching staff"? They all do if they're not in Jerrah World. You're probably right about tempering somewhat but right now, yeah, I'm excited. Even if this is the third 1-1 with a new coach I feel it's quite different this time. Hey, I may be jilted but for the time being I'm going to allow myself some optimism.

We'll all watch and see what happens together, I'm sure.
 
We totally should've kept the entire staff and gone 2-14 again next year. They fired themselves with weekly **** bag performances. This is more of the everyone gets a participation ribbon and no one is held accountable mindset. I for one am glad they're all gone.
 
I understand trashcanning the staff responsible for a 2-14 season. That's to be expected. My question is why? Because he didn't think any of them could do the job?
Fair enough.
But if O'Brien fired them all so he can bring in his own set of buddies (like Kubiak did) without looking around the league, or in the college ranks, to see who might be BETTER than his buddies at each position, well, this sounds eeriely like the way things unfolded with Kubiak and with Capers before him...

....we just left that movie didn't we? I thought this was supposed to be different.

I got "excited" with Kubiak before all the results were in. Not doing that with O'Brien.

Like you say, we'll all find out together.
 
ObsiWan said:
I understand trashcanning the staff responsible for a 2-14 season. That's to be expected. My question is why? Because he didn't think any of them could do the job?
Fair enough.
But if O'Brien fired them all so he can bring in his own set of buddies (like Kubiak did) without looking around the league, or in the college ranks, to see who might be BETTER than his buddies at each position, well, this sounds eeriely like the way things unfolded with Kubiak and with Capers before him...

....we just left that movie didn't we? I thought this was supposed to be different.

I got "excited" with Kubiak before all the results were in. Not doing that with O'Brien.

Like you say, we'll all find out together.
Click to expand...

I think it's an unrealistic expectation for it to be different. Sure, a lot of people whined and moaned about the "good old boy" network with Kubiak hiring guys he knew and had worked with before, but almost every coach out there does the same thing.

Occasionally, you get a situation like Dungy had coming to the Colts and Gruden had coming to the Buccs where the HC is coming in and part of the team is already solid. Like Kiffen as DC in Tampa Bay or Moore as the OC with the Colts. In those cases, the Coach will leave that side of the ball alone.

Situations like they had in Dallas where Jerry hired Garrett as the OC before hiring Wade as the HC are very rare. Normally a head coach chooses his staff. And normally that HC chooses guys he knows and trusts to do a good job.

It's only a "bad" thing if it doesn't work out.
 
Soooo we should be okay with O'Brien showing signs of the same behavior Kubiak did.
- Offensive-minded head coach who also calls the plays... Check.
- Head coach who's supposed to be a "QB Guru"... Check.
- Was a coordinator, with no NFL HC-ing experience, on a Super Bowl winner... Check.
- Some flavor of "It's on me" at pressers... Check.
- Hiring his buds instead of doing a thorough search for better candidates... Check.

Same behaviour as the last guy but we should expect a different result...??

What's the word for that again...??
:D

Like I said, I will hold off on "getting excited" until I see what he does with the roster. Changes need to be made for sure. But it doesn't need the complete purge that was needed after the 2005 season.

And more than that, I want to see who he picks as his defensive coordinator. Lots of good names out there that you guys have already listed. But if it ends up being another of his buds.....
 
I get heartburn just thinking about everything below.
Hopefully if the guy does turn out to be Gary 2.0
(or Dom 3.0) we don't wait 6 years to replace him.

I don't want to be retired by the time we win anything
substantial.

ObsiWan said:
Soooo we should be okay with O'Brien showing signs of the same behavior Kubiak did.
- Offensive-minded head coach who also calls the plays... Check.
- Head coach who's supposed to be a "QB Guru"... Check.
- Was a coordinator, with no NFL HC-ing experience, on a Super Bowl winner... Check.
- Some flavor of "It's on me" at pressers... Check.
- Hiring his buds instead of doing a thorough search for better candidates... Check.

Same behaviour as the last guy but we should expect a different result...??

What's the word for that again...??
:D

Like I said, I will hold off on "getting excited" until I see what he does with the roster. Changes need to be made for sure. But it doesn't need the complete purge that was needed after the 2005 season.

And more than that, I want to see who he picks as his defensive coordinator. Lots of good names out there that you guys have already listed. But if it ends up being another of his buds.....
Click to expand...
 
ObsiWan said:
I understand trashcanning the staff responsible for a 2-14 season. That's to be expected. My question is why? Because he didn't think any of them could do the job?
Fair enough.
But if O'Brien fired them all so he can bring in his own set of buddies (like Kubiak did) without looking around the league, or in the college ranks, to see who might be BETTER than his buddies at each position, well, this sounds eeriely like the way things unfolded with Kubiak and with Capers before him...

....we just left that movie didn't we? I thought this was supposed to be different.

I got "excited" with Kubiak before all the results were in. Not doing that with O'Brien.

Like you say, we'll all find out together.
Click to expand...

When a team hires an NFL coach, they are getting said coaches buddy list along with the ride. Capers did the same things really when he came in, and I'm pretty sure the 6 or 7 other new HC's next year are also going to do that as well.

Basically you have to believe that the people O'Brien wants to bring in are the people who can coach this team up into a winner and perennial playoff appearance if you think this regime will succeed.
 
ObsiWan said:
I understand trashcanning the staff responsible for a 2-14 season. That's to be expected. My question is why? Because he didn't think any of them could do the job?
Fair enough.
But if O'Brien fired them all so he can bring in his own set of buddies (like Kubiak did) without looking around the league, or in the college ranks, to see who might be BETTER than his buddies at each position, well, this sounds eeriely like the way things unfolded with Kubiak and with Capers before him...

....we just left that movie didn't we? I thought this was supposed to be different.

I got "excited" with Kubiak before all the results were in. Not doing that with O'Brien.

Like you say, we'll all find out together.
Click to expand...

The way I see it, I would be very surprised if he didn't bring in his buddies, especially position coaches.

It would be interesting to note everytime a new head coach is hired how many of his buddies he brings.

I believe it's a way to bring in your philosophy quickly because those coaches already know it and have bought into it.
 
ObsiWan said:
I, for one, can't get "excited" until there's something to get excited about. This new dude - and I mean O'Brien - hasn't done anything of note as yet. I do know this. I have much higher expectations from him than I did from Kubiak when he got here.
- He is inheriting a much, much better cast of characters than Kubiak inherited when he got here.
- He's not saddled with the owner's damaged "fair-haired boy" at QB and actually gets to pick his own guy.
- If Foster heals properly he'll have a stud at RB (and speaking of which, what are the odds of that Doc??).
- He'll have a stud at LT, a solid guy at center, and some decent prospects at the other O-line spots; something it took the previous regime three drafts to find and another year or two to fully develop.
- He has an all-time great at WR plus some potential studs at the other WR spots as well at TE.

All the offensive pieces - except QB - are here for this "offensive genius" to make work. And he gets to pick his own guy at QB.

I wanna see what he does with this loaded toy box before I get "excited".

Or will he throw it all away and start over like he did the whole coaching staff??
Click to expand...

You think that Kubiak and O'Brien are the only ones that do this? You are wrong. This is business as usual for new regimes when they come in.

It's mind boggling that people actually get upset or get frustrated because old coaches get fired from a regime that just lost 14 games in a row. Why this is even a discussion is weird on many levels.
 
As long as he doesn't bring in Sanduski to "mentor" prepubescent/teenaged boys or any of Bele-cheat's "videographers" to help him cheat I'm good.
 
I'd lose a little respect for O'Brien if he came in and kept any part of status quo.

New head coaches hire "their guys" for a number of reasons. I'd imagine the primary reason is to get a staff that can implement the head coach's schemes on both sides of the ball.

And there is the matter of trust, especially during crucial situations in games. Coordinators get a bit of autonomy, so there has to be a foundation of trust in the way an assistant coach is going to adjust to what the other team is doing and how that assistant is going to react when the pressure of the moment is on and the game is on the line.

And just basic stuff like compatibility in the daily grind is important when they spend so much time together. Chemistry starts at the top, with the coaches, and we've see the oil and water mix in Houston before. Having two warring factions within a team is never good for business.

I'm a little curious why Rick Smith, the general manager, did not fire the previous staff. It seems like making the new guy do all the dirty work, but then again, maybe that is the established power structure on Kirby. They want a strong head coach.
 
ObsiWan said:
I understand trashcanning the staff responsible for a 2-14 season. That's to be expected. My question is why? Because he didn't think any of them could do the job?...
Click to expand...

Because he doesn't want to have to teach/train his coaches along with his players -- he's got enough on his plate as it is and a shorter leash in the NFL...

And because he wants guys who coach with a lot of enthusiasm. So he retained Bill Kollar.

You either trust the guy to make his own decisions... or you don't hire him.

  • His pressers will suck like Belichick's.
  • He'll take ultimate responsibility because failure is his responsibility.
  • He's a QB coach because the NFL more than ever is a QB league.
  • He won't throw his players under the bus because leaders with integrity don't do that.
  • He'll call his own plays because he's smart enough to do so, until he finds another guy he trusts to do same... which he will.

ObsiWan said:
And more than that, I want to see who he picks as his defensive coordinator...But if it ends up being another of his buds.....
Click to expand...
DC will be Crennel, who is another one of his "buds", unless something screwy is going on.
 
It seems like I'm in bizarro world where new NFL head coaches are expected to keep the assistant coaches from the previous failed regime.
What the hell are people thinking?
Keeping coaches from the previous staff is the exception, not the rule.
Virtually 100% of new HCs bring in 100% new coaching staffs. They don't keep the old coaches in almost every instance.
They also don't hire people that they are not familiar with, and/or have not worked with before. Some of y'all have a completely inaccurate idea of what happens when HCs are fired in the NFL. It's like you haven't been watching the game at all.
 
Double Barrel said:
I'm a little curious why Rick Smith, the general manager, did not fire the previous staff. It seems like making the new guy do all the dirty work, but then again, maybe that is the established power structure on Kirby. They want a strong head coach.
Click to expand...

Yep. You answered your own question: they didn't fire the coaching staff because they wanted the new head coach to do it. That, in turn, sends a signal that the new coach means business.

This is more than a coaching change; this is a culture change. McNair is not playing around (even his attitude seems different) and wants to send a strong signal. You do that by hiring a head coach that's not afraid to roll in and clean house.
 
michaelm said:
It seems like I'm in bizarro world where new NFL head coaches are expected to keep the assistant coaches from the previous failed regime.
What the hell are people thinking?
Keeping coaches from the previous staff is the exception, not the rule.
Virtually 100% of new HCs bring in 100% new coaching staffs. They don't keep the old coaches in almost every instance.
They also don't hire people that they are not familiar with, and/or have not worked with before. Some of y'all have a completely inaccurate idea of what happens when HCs are fired in the NFL. It's like you haven't been watching the game at all.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing that people saw that Kubiak kept one or two of Capers' assistants - Marciano and Harris, I think - and assumed that that is how it's done. It's the "nice guy" way of doing things, in a lot of people's minds.

But, the truth is, O'Brien was well within reason to clean house and not get input from the current coaches. Had we gone, say, 8-8, then maybe I could see considering keeping a few more people.

But, 2-14? And losing 14 in a row?

Hell no.

Everybody and their mamma should have been fired.
 
ObsiWan said:
Soooo we should be okay with O'Brien showing signs of the same behavior Kubiak did.
- Offensive-minded head coach who also calls the plays... Check.
- Head coach who's supposed to be a "QB Guru"... Check.
- Was a coordinator, with no NFL HC-ing experience, on a Super Bowl winner... Check.
- Some flavor of "It's on me" at pressers... Check.
- Hiring his buds instead of doing a thorough search for better candidates... Check.

Same behaviour as the last guy but we should expect a different result...??

What's the word for that again...??
:D
Click to expand...

Not the one you are going for but - duplicitous. What this experience should teach is all those criticisms were made up BS in the first place. Easy allegations without any substance.

Lose a game and we will start hearing about the Ihop menu.

images
 
infantrycak said:
Not the one you are going for but - duplicitous. What this experience should teach is all those criticisms were made up BS in the first place. Easy allegations without any substance.

Lose a game and we will start hearing about the Ihop menu.

images
Click to expand...

Very true. As much as I wanted Kubiak gone, I tried to be fair about it, and not judge him based on nonsense like not looking at field goals, his colorful playbook (which damn-near every coach has) and his boring press conferences.
 
houstonspartan said:
Very true. As much as I wanted Kubiak gone, I tried to be fair about it, and not judge him based on nonsense like not looking at field goals, his colorful playbook (which damn-near every coach has) and his boring press conferences.
Click to expand...

Those were three things that a lot of people bitched about that made absolutely no sense to me.
 
Friedgen on O'Brien relating to players

Houston Texans coach Bill O'Brien has had several coaching mentors throughout his career. One of them is Ralph Friedgen, the former Maryland coach who first presided over O'Brien when both were at Georgia Tech...
Friedgen hired O'Brien as a running backs coach and then tried to hire him as his offensive coordinator at Maryland.
...
"I think he’s blatantly honest with them," Friedgen said. "...We’re a lot alike in that way. I’m an emotional guy, he’s an emotional guy. He’ll tell you how he feels. You’ll see him get very angry, you’ll also see him get quiet. I think what happens is people can trust him. I think it wasn’t an easy decision for him to leave now. I think he could have done it last year. But because of the commitment the players made there and the commitment he made to the players (he stayed)."
...
He also noted, as others have, that O'Brien's strength is working with quarterbacks.

"If they draft a quarterback, I think they will, he’ll get excellent guidance," he said. "He’s not the coordinator, he’s the head coach but he’ll have an impact on that. He’ll hire somebody that’s going to be thinking the same way he does. ... You’ve gotta have a quarterback or you won’t win."
Click to expand...


Eric SanInocencio ‏@EricSan
Interesting note. Both Bill O'Brien and @BuffaloBills coach Doug Marone were on same Georgia Tech staff in late 90s: http://bit.ly/1gC6m05
Click to expand...
 
The Pencil Neck said:
Those were three things that a lot of people bitched about that made absolutely no sense to me.
Click to expand...

Exactly - I have a hard time believing people really believe some of what's said.

Team Owner/GM : I see you want to hire <fill in the blank> as your newest assistant coach.
Head Coach : Yes - I think he'll do a fine job as our <fill in the blank> coach.
TO/GM : Is this someone you're personally familiar with?
HC : Yes he is.
TO/GM : Have you worked with him before?
HC : Yes I have. I've seen him work first hand, and based on that, I believe he can help this team succeed.
TO/GM : Is this someone you've actually hired before when you were putting together another coaching staff?
HC : Yes, I thought enough of him to hire him before, and based on that experience, I'm willing to stake some of my success on my previous experience.
TO/GM : Then I'm sorry I can't approve the hire. Please go out and find someone you've never worked with or met, and then come back and talk to me.
 
ChampionTexan said:
Exactly - I have a hard time believing people really believe some of what's said.

Team Owner/GM : I see you want to hire as your newest assistant coach.
Head Coach : Yes - I think he'll do a fine job as our coach.
TO/GM : Is this someone you're personally familiar with?
HC : Yes he is.
TO/GM : Have you worked with him before?
HC : Yes I have. I've seen him work first hand, and based on that, I believe he can help this team succeed.
TO/GM : Is this someone you've actually hired before when you were putting together another coaching staff?
HC : Yes, I thought enough of him to hire him before, and based on that experience, I'm willing to stake some of my success on my previous experience.
TO/GM : Then I'm sorry I can't approve the hire. Please go out and find someone you've never worked with or met, and then come back and talk to me.
Click to expand...


Lmao!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
houstonspartan said:
Very true. As much as I wanted Kubiak gone, I tried to be fair about it, and not judge him based on nonsense like not looking at field goals, his colorful playbook (which damn-near every coach has) and his boring press conferences.
Click to expand...

If you've ever been in a relationship that is well past it's prime, even the little innocuous things tend to get on your nerves.

I think these Kubiak tendencies were those little things that people would focus on because they did not like the head coach.

I'm not defending it as much as I'm trying to explain it.

I found the whole Denny's menu thing to be more humor than any real legitimate criticism. Sometimes, though, my perception was that it seemed like a bit of a crutch, sort of a way to bury his face in it instead of ruling the sidelines like other head coaches. Kubiak sometimes stared a hole through it like the answers to a particular problem would magically jump out at him (and I think this tendency is from years of being an offensive coordinator where their minds are buried in the playbook for entire games).

I could not care less about boring press conferences, although I do like those coaches that break down plays and strategies after games. Mainly to be educated about the game and schemes for my own enjoyment. But I do not criticize a coach for being mundane with the press.

The field goal thing was just a weird little quirk. I never understood it, but I never felt like it reflected on him as a coach. Some would argue it's a nervous thing. As long as he's not closing his eyes when he shoots a weapon.
 
Boring press conferences?? You'd better hope they remain boring, else they end up on Youtube, and not shown in a positive light.
 
Marcus said:
Boring press conferences?? You'd better hope they remain boring, else they end up on Youtube, and not shown in a positive light.
Click to expand...

Unless the coach wins championships. Then they become legendary, like the way Bill Parcells or Mike Ditka would deal with the media.

Personally, I get a kick out of the droll attitude that Belichick takes with the media, especially after seeing his "A Football Life" and his personality away from the press. He plays mind games with those media people.

But yeah, in general, you probably do not want your HC to be known for his meltdowns more than whatever he accomplishes as HC.

As a football fan, I do love to see head coaches on other teams have those moments! :D
 
infantrycak said:
Lose a game and we will start hearing about the Ihop menu.
Click to expand...

Wait 'till they start complaining about flying off the handle & making knee jerk decisions instead of keeping his cool & making rational decisions.

Or disrespecting players on the sideline.
 
infantrycak said:
Not the one you are going for but - duplicitous. What this experience should teach is all those criticisms were made up BS in the first place. Easy allegations without any substance.

Lose a game and we will start hearing about the Ihop menu.

images
Click to expand...

Aaah... you got where I was going. I said I understood why the whole staff was shown the door. I also said that was to be expected. I was recalling all the grief cast upon Kubiak for hiring his "buddies". But now it's perfectly normal for the new staff to be populated by Buddies Of O'Brien.

For better or worse, we'll all find out together if these BoOBs can get this team, our team, back on track.
 
ObsiWan said:
Aaah... you got where I was going. I said I understood why the whole staff was shown the door. I also said that was to be expected. I was recalling all the grief cast upon Kubiak for hiring his "buddies". But now it's perfectly normal for the new staff to be populated by Buddies Of O'Brien.

For better or worse, we'll all find out together if these BoOBs can get this team, our team, back on track.
Click to expand...

Buddies Of O'Brien by OBsiWan. :bubbles:
 
The issue isn't the hiring of buddies; the issue is the willingness to FIRE buddies if necessary. Kubaik could not, unless forced. O'Brien seems like the type that would. But we will see.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top