We just disagree on how talented this team is. That is all.
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What is the rebuilding path?
- Thread starter Runner
- Start date
We just disagree on how talented this team is. That is all.
PM me and I will give you my address so you can mail me my $$$$$.
When I think rebuild, I think it comes in different forms.
I do not think a rebuild has to jettison the obvious talent on the team. Those are building blocks. Brown, Watt, WRs, Cushing, Swearinger, etc., you obviously keep those guys.
But rebuild, to me, is an entire new coaching staff. Rebuild the types of offensive and defensive schemes. And don't take 5 years to do it. I don't have the attention span.
I do not think a rebuild has to jettison the obvious talent on the team. Those are building blocks. Brown, Watt, WRs, Cushing, Swearinger, etc., you obviously keep those guys.
But rebuild, to me, is an entire new coaching staff. Rebuild the types of offensive and defensive schemes. And don't take 5 years to do it. I don't have the attention span.
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
When I think rebuild, I think it comes in different forms.
I do not think a rebuild has to jettison the obvious talent on the team. Those are building blocks. Brown, Watt, WRs, Cushing, Swearinger, etc., you obviously keep those guys.
But rebuild, to me, is an entire new coaching staff. Rebuild the types of offensive and defensive schemes. And don't take 5 years to do it. I don't have the attention span.
We've seen teams turn it around in a year or two and the missing ingredient has always been either a new coach or a new QB. Take a look at the Seahawks, the Chiefs, the Chargers this season, etc. I can go on. The Colts are an example right here in our own division.
I don't wanna roll the dice on a QB next season. This next season next season stuff is the way we end up with a crappy pick and a QB we really don't want. We can take looks at Winston/Petty/Hogan but who's to say they won't all take the Matt Barkley route from here on? We have some close-to-sure things here. I'm all aboard the Teddy Bridgewater train as long as we're gunning for the #1 overall pick.
I know SteelB and others have been pulling hard for an O-line/LB draft and while it's certainly a good idea take a look at last year's Colts. They are still a mediocre overall team but look what their QB does for them. I'm not saying Bridgewater is Luck, but he certainly is Luck-like. He's still an enticing, fantastic prospect and I think he can be the face of this franchise for the next 10+ years. We can nab a good O-line prospect in the 2nd or 3rd if this draft is truly as deep as it has been claimed to be. We can nab a good ILB2 in the second/third as well. But a QB... if we end up with pick #1, and unless Keenum suddenly switches a light on in his head and starts making some progress, we should go with a QB. When you can put a face on your franchise for the next decade, you do it. If our FO thinks Bridgewater is the guy, they better do it.
Yep. Someone should bring up the old Schaub vs Smith debates. There were a lot of people here that were suggesting that Schaub was the better QB.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
up to that point he was...or he was at least even with him. Just like most thought Kaepernick was gonna be the 2nd coming of Randall Cunningham. Things change. Schaub sucks, & Kaepernick still has not progressed much more as a passer...& smith is still at best an above average game manager. The team has lost 2 straight since he hasn't been able to rely on that defense & it'll be interesting to see what he does if Houston & Hali miss any significant time & he can no longer rely on the defense...
b0ng
Bad Hombre
Ooooh a rebuilding thread. This is how I would rebuild the Texans for maximum hilarity:
Dom Capers is more than likely going to be fired from GB in the offseason. Bam. Head Coach Dom Capers. Derek Carr is a QB who might be coming out in the 2014 NFL Draft. Bam! Derek Carr first round QB.
Let freedom ring.
Dom Capers is more than likely going to be fired from GB in the offseason. Bam. Head Coach Dom Capers. Derek Carr is a QB who might be coming out in the 2014 NFL Draft. Bam! Derek Carr first round QB.
Let freedom ring.
This!!!! Plus you never know what could happen "NEXT YEAR". Anything could happen. One of the top QB's could decide to return to school for another year, one goes to jail, one has a turd of a season and one tears an ACL. then what? There you are again, waiting till next year.
These QB's aren't flawless for sure but if you are waiting for the next Luck you could be waiting for a long long time.
Didn't realize I was the one who started that thread.
. http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97244&highlight=Smith+Schaub
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Find a QB.
That's really the only answer.
That's really the only answer.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I don't think this team is that far away from being dominant.
At THIS point, a new coach could come in here and do what Andy Reid did with the Chiefs this year. (Although it remains to be seen just how good or bad that Chiefs team really is.)
I'm one of the people who believed that this team needed several years to "turn it around." I still believe that when Smithiak took this team over, there were no quick fixes. There was simply not enough talent or enough players to do anything.
THIS team is different. Our biggest problem is at QB. If we get the right QB and a little discipline, we're winning lots of games.
With the New NFL, a rookie QB can come in and win. In previous times, that was not the case. With the right draft and the right coaches, we could be back in the playoffs next year. (Provided whatever coach/gm we bring in doesn't decide to blow everything up and start from scratch. Which could happen.)
NOTE: I do not think Case is the guy for the future.
At THIS point, a new coach could come in here and do what Andy Reid did with the Chiefs this year. (Although it remains to be seen just how good or bad that Chiefs team really is.)
I'm one of the people who believed that this team needed several years to "turn it around." I still believe that when Smithiak took this team over, there were no quick fixes. There was simply not enough talent or enough players to do anything.
THIS team is different. Our biggest problem is at QB. If we get the right QB and a little discipline, we're winning lots of games.
With the New NFL, a rookie QB can come in and win. In previous times, that was not the case. With the right draft and the right coaches, we could be back in the playoffs next year. (Provided whatever coach/gm we bring in doesn't decide to blow everything up and start from scratch. Which could happen.)
NOTE: I do not think Case is the guy for the future.
He scored 38 points in that last loss. He played great.
houstonspartan
All Pro
Uh NO.
If the re-build had worked, it would have been sustainable. The idea behind "slow and steady" was that we were building a powerhouse franchise, along the likes of Green Bay, Pittsburg and New England.
In addition, the window was wide open for us to solidify the hold in our division, as well as the AFC. Both Indy and the Titans went through major changes, and we should have kept the pedal on the gas and build this thing into a major, formidible franchise.
We didn't.
The re-build failed.
Clean house.
GET RID OF GM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A real GM doesn't make all the mistakes that put us here.
He replaces head coach back in 2010.
He doesn't extend MS.
He doesn't spend stupid money on Reed.
I still contend not trading Mario was the biggest mistake besides extending Kubiak. Even if only had got a couple of 3rd round draft choices we would have saved millions to use to keep our team together. There was no way we were going to keep Mario NO MATTER WHAT.
I see a lot of Mario in Clowney. Don't want him as first round draft choice.
GET RID OF GM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A real GM doesn't make all the mistakes that put us here.
He replaces head coach back in 2010.
He doesn't extend MS.
He doesn't spend stupid money on Reed.
I still contend not trading Mario was the biggest mistake besides extending Kubiak. Even if only had got a couple of 3rd round draft choices we would have saved millions to use to keep our team together. There was no way we were going to keep Mario NO MATTER WHAT.
I see a lot of Mario in Clowney. Don't want him as first round draft choice.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Two of those three teams may be sitting at home watching the playoffs just like the Texans this season. Powerhouse isn't something judged by 1 or 2 off years.
houstonspartan
All Pro
Correct. But I will take those teams multiple super bowl titles over our...wait, what have we done, again?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
To the best of our knowledge those were not Smith decisions. Even if McNair has a new GM conduct the HC search it doesn't mean he will cede those decisions to his sole discretion.
Well then don't look to them for the standard for success without looking at how they got there. Peripatetic change is not one of their hallmarks.
TexansFTW
Veteran
Great thread, so many different directions that I love.
1. A 1st round QB is a must (See 2-14 Colts become 11-5 Colts). They didn't wake up the next season and become a 10-6 team that Luck pushed over the top to a 11-5 record, that is still the same garbage 2-14 team BUT with Andrew Luck. If Luck was out the whole season they'd be 2-14 again. It's so weird every game Luck has an off night (it happens) the opposing teams run up the score. 40 from the Cards, 38 from the Rams, etc.
2. Rick Smith has to go along w/ Kubiak, Phillips, Dennison, and Marciano. Rick Smith is ultimately the one who should be held to the fire for 5 years of HORRIBLE draft picks. Any idiot can win in the first round, but a real GM doesn't fail in rounds 2-6 EVERY YEAR. I know you can say those are Kubiak's/Wade's hand picked selections, but it's ultimately the GM who is held to the fire for them, and I personally don't believe Smith has the power. I think he's a puppet for Kubiak.
3. As for the Schaub vs. Alex Smith debate. Get out of here yall talking like you knew something. You think Alex Smith would have succeeded AS A TEXAN? It's one thing to do it under a good, NOT predictable head coach like Andy Reid, but try that crap under Kubiak. Smith would have failed here JUST THE SAME. Isn't it weird that Case comes out looking strong with the deep ball, scrambling, and sick 'on the fly' moves and then after a few weeks as the starter under Kubiak looks EXACTLY like Matt Schaub? Run to the right where we are the worst in the NFL, Throw it away because it was a predictable poorly drawn up play that didn't have enough time to develop, 3rd and 7 - throw it to a TE 4 yards short of the chains, punt, repeat...
4. The rebuild failed. I like that we modeled it off of those power houses in question, but guess what those power houses did? Never looked like we do today.
1. A 1st round QB is a must (See 2-14 Colts become 11-5 Colts). They didn't wake up the next season and become a 10-6 team that Luck pushed over the top to a 11-5 record, that is still the same garbage 2-14 team BUT with Andrew Luck. If Luck was out the whole season they'd be 2-14 again. It's so weird every game Luck has an off night (it happens) the opposing teams run up the score. 40 from the Cards, 38 from the Rams, etc.
2. Rick Smith has to go along w/ Kubiak, Phillips, Dennison, and Marciano. Rick Smith is ultimately the one who should be held to the fire for 5 years of HORRIBLE draft picks. Any idiot can win in the first round, but a real GM doesn't fail in rounds 2-6 EVERY YEAR. I know you can say those are Kubiak's/Wade's hand picked selections, but it's ultimately the GM who is held to the fire for them, and I personally don't believe Smith has the power. I think he's a puppet for Kubiak.
3. As for the Schaub vs. Alex Smith debate. Get out of here yall talking like you knew something. You think Alex Smith would have succeeded AS A TEXAN? It's one thing to do it under a good, NOT predictable head coach like Andy Reid, but try that crap under Kubiak. Smith would have failed here JUST THE SAME. Isn't it weird that Case comes out looking strong with the deep ball, scrambling, and sick 'on the fly' moves and then after a few weeks as the starter under Kubiak looks EXACTLY like Matt Schaub? Run to the right where we are the worst in the NFL, Throw it away because it was a predictable poorly drawn up play that didn't have enough time to develop, 3rd and 7 - throw it to a TE 4 yards short of the chains, punt, repeat...
4. The rebuild failed. I like that we modeled it off of those power houses in question, but guess what those power houses did? Never looked like we do today.
CretorFrigg
Fire Rick Smith
Well, then in that case, 10 season and only 2 playoff appearances. Seems pretty mediocre to me.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Probably the same people who swore up and down that Keenum was a better QB than Smith.
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
We're an expansion team. Pittsburgh and Green Bay are not.
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
The Texans and Packers are EASILY the two most injury-riddled teams of the last two years. I haven't seen anything like either in all the time I've been watching pro sports.
Over the last three years, the Texans have lost (for an extended period of time) Matt Schaub, Arian Foster, Ben Tate, Mike Breisel, Andre Johnson, Owen Daniels, Mario Williams, Brian Cushing, Jonathan Joseph, Danieal Manning, Kareem Jackson and I'm sure I'm forgetting more than a couple more.
You tell me whether the Broncos or Patriots have lost THAT many players and THAT MANY high-quality, integral players. Go ahead. Tell me.
Nobody is saying it's an excuse for poor depth or poor coaching, people. Stop putting words into people's mouths. You know, simply mentioning something is NOT using that something as an excuse. I hope you people realize that. In terms of these injuries, it's merely saying that sooner or later, that utopian fantasy of "next man up!" just doesn't happen. There isn't enough depth in the world to cover what we've had to go through and maintain the same success we would have otherwise. Frankly, it's a miracle we even made it to the AFC Divisional Round in 2011 and 2012.
TexansFight
Veteran
Rick Smith and Gary Kubiak should be fired this afternoon. I would hire Eric DeCosta tonight and have him get started on rebuilding this organization from top to bottom. Losers in the scouting department like Grier need to be fired as well. The only guy who should feel safe is Jamey Rootes. The business side is a well oiled machine and he brought the best burgers in H-town, Bernie's Burger Bus to Reliant.
DeCosta will have a head start on picking a coach and will have to assemble a new scouting department. With the new scouts, we need to pick the best QB available in the 1st, best OL in 2nd rd., 3rd-5th rd picks should be spent on LBers. New K signed in FA. Switch to a 4-3. That's my rebuild plan.
DeCosta will have a head start on picking a coach and will have to assemble a new scouting department. With the new scouts, we need to pick the best QB available in the 1st, best OL in 2nd rd., 3rd-5th rd picks should be spent on LBers. New K signed in FA. Switch to a 4-3. That's my rebuild plan.
TexansFight
Veteran
Wow, you are defending the indefensible. Are you trolling us or do you believe what you just wrote above?
houstonspartan
All Pro
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
There is not much controversial about the idea that the texans are a talented team that is underachieving this year... Most people associated with the NFL would agree with that, just not the Texan fans in the middle of a temper tantrum.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Feel free to make a list of all the talent
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
Some of us need to quit acting like this team is devoid of talent, because that isn't the case. Nor is it correct to say the team has enough talent to win a Super Bowl.
We're in that in-between stage that people can call it anything they like depending on which way the wind blows through the ears on their skull.
We're in that in-between stage that people can call it anything they like depending on which way the wind blows through the ears on their skull.
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
How can you say we're a talentless team?
Duane Brown, Chris Myers, AJ, DeAndre (who has been off recently, but he's got talent), Foster on the offense.
DJ Swearinger, Jonathan Joseph, Kareem Jackson (don't say he's not a good #2, because he is), Danieal Manning, JJ Watt, Ninja, Cushing.
This is not a talentless team. It's a shallow team.
Duane Brown, Chris Myers, AJ, DeAndre (who has been off recently, but he's got talent), Foster on the offense.
DJ Swearinger, Jonathan Joseph, Kareem Jackson (don't say he's not a good #2, because he is), Danieal Manning, JJ Watt, Ninja, Cushing.
This is not a talentless team. It's a shallow team.
bhsman
Rookie
Andre Johnson
DeAndre Hopkins
DeVier Posey
Arian Foster
Owen Daniels
Chris Myers
Duane Brown
Brandon Brooks
JJ Watt
Antonio Smith
Whitney Mercilus
Brian Cushing
Danieal Manning
DJ Swearinger
Johnathan Joseph
Kareem Jackson
Shane Lechler
That's not a bad core of young talent to go with the veterans. I didn't count rookies on IR this year like Trevardo or Bonner, but they could come in and contribute as well.
It's a farce to say the team doesn't have talent when a lot of it has been injured this year. There's also the fact that Schaub falling apart physically (not his choice, I imagine) is what hurt us the most early on.
A solid draft combined with a weak strength of schedule could send us back above .500.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
It is a fools errand to attempt to justify individual talent in the midst of a season going this poorly... It is no different than trying to argue last year's team was devoid of talent at9-1...
All teams have holes. Some of the talent is playing poorly this year. I get it.
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
Yeah, I was a little worried we were going to see this padding it out to make your point. The majority of those players were out for a few weeks and returned in time for the playoffs or never got 'injured' until the season was in the books.
Of all the players you mention only very few got injured early enough and were missed by the team enough to effect our playoff tilt.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
I don't think anyone's saying talentless. Not me anyways.
Sure, we have a small core of players that have talent, but some are making it sound as if we have the type of roster KC had before plugging in a decent HC.
I'll give you DB, AJ, Watt, Cush and maybe KJ. The rest can be argued, imo. Can Myers be good in any scheme that's not ZBS? I don't think so. JJo had one good season. Manning's average at best.
When I think of talent I think of players that have proved they can do it at this level and sustain. Swearinger and Hopkins haven't done much
I will say we are a lot better off than the last 2-14 campaign.
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
That's ridiculous. Injuries matter no matter when they happen. Stop moving goalposts.
To your knowlege what is Rick's job?
Whatever his job is I'm sure he contributed greatly to the mess the team is currently in. If Rick was Gary's yes mab do you want somebody like that leading yet another Texans rebuild?
As for all of the we gotta get a QB pronto posters, Didn't you learn anything from the Carr debacle? Build the foundation 1st. Maybe I feel this way because there's something I dont like about Bridewater. McCarron in the 3rd represents more value than Bridgewater at #1 overall. They both have about the same arm strength and while Bridgewater is more mobile McCarron is more of a leader than Bridgewater. It's not like McCarron is immoble.
Getting a QB now doesn't mean we have to throw him to the wolves. You can keep .... Schaub (or some other veteran) another year cutting him after next season with very little if any dead money.
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
So mike brisiel getting injured for like 4 weeks with the playoffs already pretty much sealed and coming back for the playoffs has the same effect as Aaron Rodgers getting injured halfway through the season?
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
All injuries matter. Why would you pick Brisiel as the guy to make whatever point you're trying to make here? In 2011 we also lost Schaub, Andre, and Mario and others on TOP of Mike Brisiel being hurt.
Besides, you were the one who said that it doesn't matter so long as they're back for the playoffs. So if Rodgers comes back in one or two weeks and the Packers make it, will that make Rodgers' injury no big deal? Of course not. Because if Rodgers was healthy, maybe the Packers wouldn't be struggling now.
Also, if you wanna focus on Brisiel, if I recall correctly, he was out for the last 3 or 4 games of the 2011 season and I think we lost the final 3 games which probably negatively affected our playoff seeding so yeah, on top of all the other injuries, Brisiel might have mattered quite a bit. Considering, you know, our OL matters a lot and it's clearly awful now.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Smith is a dud like schaub,just more mobile. A smith led team is 2-29 when his team gives up 24 pts or more. Alex smith is the same dude wo was terrible early in his career. The only change is the last 3 yrs he's had high end defenses. If he were on the texans,their record would be similar because he would've lost the 1st 2 games and maybe won 2 others,that's it.
TexansFTW
Veteran
I don't believe in McCarron. Guys that have the most ideal conditions in college scare me. 6 seconds in the pocket, play makers, rarely needs to throw over 30 times a game, amazing run game year in and year out. Defense that gets you the ball deep in opponents territory.
I like guys that have to work for it, that have garbage teams around them and still rise up when it matters like Bridgewater in the Bowl game against #3 Florida last year.
QB 1st, otherwise you will be building the 'foundation' forever. What about our foundation is missing anyways?
Top 5 WR - check
Top 5 RB - check
Top 5 DL - check
Top 5 LB - check (when healthy)
top 8 CB - check
2 top 15 OLine - check
Foundation is built bro. Time to strike is now. Andre's days are numbered and after MegaWatt signs his MegaDeal a whole lot of those other positions start becoming unchecked.
TexansFTW
Veteran
Well said. I bet Matt Schaub on the Chiefs this year could have had similar success and Alex Smith on the Texans would have had similar failures.
All about the coaches and the system. None of these 2 have the power to overcome the shortcomings of those 2 things.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Uh, I don't know if you're serious or not,but the patriots started the season minus their top 4 pass catchers. Then they lost wilfolk and and mayo for the season. Not to mention the other injuries. The broncos are playing with 3rd string center,2nd team lt and rt. Not to mention champ hasn't played,rahim moore is done for the season,drc is down again and tell me who is playing lb? Yeah,and miller missed 1st 6 games.
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
Yeah, it's been rough. Still hasn't been as rough as us and the Packers over the last 3 years.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Lee,
I think I have seen you on record in support of bridgewater... If that doesn't happen, given the depth of this QB class, what are your thoughts about getting two guys to come and compete...
Maybe Hundley or Fales late in the 1st and then Murray, mccarron, or mettenberger in the 2nd or 3rd...
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
The Pats make schematic adjustments to hide limited players forced into the lineup, we don't do that on offense or defense.... That is the difference.
Well, we do some on offense but it is within too narrow of a scope, I think.
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
In 2011 we had 3 starters on IR going into week 14. They were Schaub, Williams, Hartmann.
I'm unsure what point you are trying to argue here, if all injuries matter then across the board there are plenty of teams with much more players out than what we have this year, all of them have better records than we do.
I'm picking out Brisiel because I knew where you were taking this quite a while ago and am not willing to accept the excuse based on players who were out a few weeks after the playoffs were already clinched, that is not an injury that has a terrible effect on your season, it's not an excuse.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
There isn't such a thing as value when you're talking franchise qb. I'm sure the dolphins thoought they were getting value with jake long at 1 and henne at 2. Guess what hapened with that? Ryan has been one of the winningest qbs since coming in,henne is a bum,and jake long is in st louis.
Even this early,the consensus is bridgewater is the best prospect regardless of position. If you're in position to draft the best prospect regardless of position and he happens to play the most important position in sports,there is no value other than drafting him. Carr was not the best prospect and it was debateable whether he was even the best qb. The owner stepped in and wanted a face of the franchise despite his shortcoming and as other have said poor foundation. Aj mccarron is nowhere in the same league as bridgewater. He's had all american,1st rd draft picks around him since he started just as the kid in with nj jets. He's had rbs,ol,dl,wr,dbs,etc and there is nothing I've seen to say he's anything other than a backup. He's not gonna have 6secs to read and make a play in the pros. So,stay on that train,in the nfl,your qb better be your best player or close to it or you're going nowhere.
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
No it has been just as bad. Texans (and the fans apparently) just make the most excuses about it.
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
Even if you think it's been as bad for the Patriots and Broncos as it has been for the Texans and Packers, which it hasn't, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady do a pretty good job masking deficiencies.
And again, I guess reading comprehension isn't your strong suit either, because never once in this discussion have I used injuries as an "excuse" for the team's awful roster management and preparation for depth in catastrophic circumstances. In fact, that's probably the biggest problem I have with Kubiak, Smith, and the conditioning/training staff in general. One of these years you'd think they'd say "hey, we constantly get ****ed with injuries, maybe we should bolster the depth of the team for when those inevitable injuries occur" but I guess not.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
If they dnt finish high enough to get bridgewater which I think they will finish with the wrse record,I would take clowney at 2 or 3,boyd with my 2nd rd pick,the tennessee nt in the 3rd. In terms of stacking the qb room, I would have case or tj,not both,and a young vet like tavaris jackson,josh mccown type.