Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

[infantrycak]

but Kubiak's generally unimaginative and predictable play calling.

I see unimaginative thrown around. Would some of the folks who espouse this please be more specific? Spare everyone the 3rd and long draw play. Other than that, what is unimaginative about either his plays or play calling?

Frankly on predictable I just think people are FOS. There are certain fans for every team who claim they can predict the plays. Saying to yourself "he is going to run" isn't something pat yourself on the back about when it is 2nd and 2. There are about 10 plays a game where conventional football wisdom (which doesn't always dictate one outcome) gets pushed aside. I want to see the "predictable play call" squad get on line and call these predicable plays before they happen on game day.

PS - in case you haven't been watching or listening, the entire design of Kubiak's offense is to look unimaginative and predictable and then dare you to stop it or it will pull off a crud load of plays out of the same formation. Name me another unimaginative and predictable offense where slow white guys are running around wide open in back fields?

 

[Goldensilence]

I guess when I am looking at the idea of a run first I'm not just looking at play calling ratio. This team looks to establish the running game early and often. The passing game under Gary is highly dependent on the run.

I think a lot of the vanilla accusations come from most mismatches on this offense are based on athletes creating them physically as more formation based.

I'd really like to see this offense with a elite QB running it. It's probably be devastating to deal with from a defensive standpoint.

 

[thunderkyss]

I guess when I am looking at the idea of a run first I'm not just looking at play calling ratio. This team looks to establish the running game early and often. The passing game under Gary is highly dependent on the run.

Before Rick Dennison showed up, Gary would abandon the run quicker than most of us here cared for. It was listed as one of his flaws back in the day.

 

[hollywood_texan]

I see unimaginative thrown around. Would some of the folks who espouse this please be more specific? Spare everyone the 3rd and long draw play. Other than that, what is unimaginative about either his plays or play calling?

Frankly on predictable I just think people are FOS. There are certain fans for every team who claim they can predict the plays. Saying to yourself "he is going to run" isn't something pat yourself on the back about when it is 2nd and 2. There are about 10 plays a game where conventional football wisdom (which doesn't always dictate one outcome) gets pushed aside. I want to see the "predictable play call" squad get on line and call these predicable plays before they happen on game day.

PS - in case you haven't been watching or listening, the entire design of Kubiak's offense is to look unimaginative and predictable and then dare you to stop it or it will pull off a crud load of plays out of the same formation. Name me another unimaginative and predictable offense where slow white guys are running around wide open in back fields?

When the Texans get in third and long, and sometimes even in second long, the screen and draw plays seem to be the norm. Very rarely in these situations do I see the Texans offense go aggressively for the yards to move the chains. This is just what I see while watching them live. I love the Texans and talking to you guys about this stuff, but I am occupied with other stuff to get down into the dirty details.

Like I said, from my perspective, the Texans' offense struggles repeatedly when it matters the most. I don't think any statistic is going to represent that, just as calling run and pass plays 50/50 over the course of a game will ensure victory.

The Texans have proven they can win football games and make it to the playoffs. But, if they want get past the divisional round, their improvements must be more innovative and not tracked statistically, except, of course, for W's and the Lombardi Trophy.

 

[hollywood_texan]

We just ran up against teams that played/coached better than we did that day. It happens. It happened to the Patriots & the Packers 4 times in 2012, same as us. That's football.

The difference between the Texans and the Patriots/Packers, those teams have won a Super Bowl and are repeatedly serious contenders deep into the playoffs.

Why is that? Like you said, some of it is coaching. Kubiak has some improvements to make in order for the Texans to win a championship, and it has nothing to do with statistics or a discussion of the Texans being a run first team or not.

 

[ChampionTexan]

Spare everyone the 3rd and long draw play. Other than that, what is unimaginative about either his plays or play calling?

When the Texans get in third and long, and sometimes even in second long, the screen and draw plays seem to be the norm. Very rarely in these situations do I see the Texans offense go aggressively for the yards to move the chains.

 

[thunderkyss]

The difference between the Texans and the Patriots/Packers, those teams have won a Super Bowl and are repeatedly serious contenders deep into the playoffs.

Why is that?

The Packers didn't get any farther than we did in 2012. The Patriots got one game closer.

If we had 30 some years of history like they do, then we can talk about not going deep into the play offs or how many Super Bowls they have. But the point is, those "bad ass" teams lost 4 games, same as us. No one is calling them unimaginative, or predictable. They had off days, period.

 

[hollywood_texan]

The Packers didn't get any farther than we did in 2012. The Patriots got one game closer.

If we had 30 some years of history like they do, then we can talk about not going deep into the play offs or how many Super Bowls they have. But the point is, those "bad ass" teams lost 4 games, same as us. No one is calling them unimaginative, or predictable. They had off days, period.

Agreed, but those teams have proven they can win the big game to get to the Super Bowl and win it in recent history. The Texans haven't. That is my point.

Once Kubiak gets to or wins a Super Bowl, the day off argument will hold some water in comparing the Texans 12 win season to the Packers and the Patriots.

 

[hollywood_texan]

It is interesting that in my original post, I did not mention the draw or screen pass, and infantrycak threw it out there in his response. I didn't go there, he did.

My point is that the when the Texans offense gets in a long situation, Kubiak seems to resign himself in his play calling that ends up with a punt on fourth down. Maybe, I should have just said that in my original post?

 

[The Pencil Neck]

It is interesting that in my original post, I did not mention the draw or screen pass, and infantrycak threw it out there in his response. I didn't go there, he did.

My point is that the when the Texans offense gets in a long situation, Kubiak seems to resign himself in his play calling that ends up with a punt on fourth down. Maybe, I should have just said that in my original post?

In most instances, I'm OK with that. If we've got a lead or if it's close, I'm fine with that. It's called trusting your defense. There was a time when we didn't have the luxury of doing that.

And I've seen lots of screen passes and draws to Arian on 3rd and long turn into first downs... just not as many last year as in previous years.

 

[thunderkyss]

Agreed, but those teams have proven they can win the big game to get to the Super Bowl and win it in recent history. The Texans haven't. That is my point.

Once Kubiak gets to or wins a Super Bowl, the day off argument will hold some water in comparing the Texans 12 win season to the Packers and the Patriots.

I don't know. If a great coach can allow a great team to have an off-day, wouldn't we expect a sub-par coach with a sub-par team to have even more off days?

Winning a Super Bowl isn't easy, not for the Super Teams with their Super QBs, & their Super coaches.

Why do we expect more from Kubiak & Schaub? That doesn't make sense.

 

[thunderkyss]

My point is that the when the Texans offense gets in a long situation, Kubiak seems to resign himself in his play calling that ends up with a punt on fourth down. Maybe, I should have just said that in my original post?

I really believe that's more Schaub than Kubiak... Kubiak said as much after one of the games. Can't remember which one, but we threw the ball in one of those situations trying to pick up the first down & Barry Warner asked Kubiak why he doesn't call plays like that more often in those situations.

Gary answered he does, but Matt checks them to that run, or draw. Matt's on the field, he sees something he didn't like, chose not to risk it & we won 12 games because of it....

It's in one of the podcasts if you care to dig through them.

 

[steelbtexan]

Agreed, but those teams have proven they can win the big game to get to the Super Bowl and win it in recent history. The Texans haven't. That is my point.

Once Kubiak gets to or wins a Super Bowl, the day off argument will hold some water in comparing the Texans 12 win season to the Packers and the Patriots.

MSR

The difference between McCarthy/Belichick and Kubiak is when they get a team down they put their throats on the other teams necks. Gary plays the odds game. Both ways are successful, but I'm a more foot on the throat kinda guy.

Of course they've got Brady/Rodgers HOF'ers at QB and Gary has Schaub and his messed up foot. This is why I hope Gary played things so close to the vest last yr. I've got my doubts.

 

[Round1]

They were beat down 3 times last yr and every time that happened,the other team stopped the run 1st.Once they sztopped the run,it took away playaction and took them off schedule and the team couldn't respond.If they were not a run 1st team,getting their run game stopped wouldn't mean much. I hate to do this,but schaubs inability to make downfield throws inside the pocket without playaction restricts them. In those 3 beadowns,that's what happen and it will continue to happen until martin,posey,hopkins,or jean can show they can beat coverage badly. If its close,schaub will not throw guys open.

If Schaub is too reliant on dbs biting on play action then it won't matter how much separation guys get. Idk about "throwing guys open", but he needs to get the ball out on time and if the receivers are doing their job, then the plays will be there to be made, play action or not.

 

[thunderkyss]

If Schaub is too reliant on dbs biting on play action then it won't matter how much separation guys get. Idk about "throwing guys open", but he needs to get the ball out on time and if the receivers are doing their job, then the plays will be there to be made, play action or not.

He's thrown for, or has been on track to throw for, 4000 yards per season.

We talk about play action a lot here, but we're not anymore dependent on it than the Patriots, or whatever team Peyton Manning is throwing for.

Look, I'll be the first to say that Schaub is not my kind of QB. If I were picking & choosing, Schaub wouldn't make my cut. But he's a talented QB, a starter in this league & enough for Kubiak to work with.

It's a shame that we're so late into his career before he was "really" able to test his mettle, playing against the best of the best when something is on the line. But it is what it is. We're "stuck" with a pretty good QB.

 

[Rey]

We talk about play action a lot here, but we're not anymore dependent on it than the Patriots, or whatever team Peyton Manning is throwing for.

Yes we are.

There's a reason why most QB's have looked better in our system than they have in some other places.

There's a reason we were able to trade Sage for a mid round pick. There's a reason why Kubiak himself harps on why running the ball effectively is so important for this offense.

There's a reason why a 5th round rookie came in towards the end of the year and did some good things and helped us win games.

We are very dependent on the play action to help our QB's out. Same thing in Washington with RG3.

And you can throw out stats about the percentage of times we run PA vs other teams and none of that matters. When we do play action teams HAVE to respect that because if it's a real hand off and they don't, we'll gash them. So they have to play honestly and can't cheat. Red Skins are even more dangerous because of RG3. When you have a notorious run game your play action is a more viable weapon.

When you are on defense and you see the Texans go to hand the ball off, you're more worried about that than when you see Tom Brady go to hand off. You WANT Brady handing the ball off. You WANT Peyton handing it off. You WANT Rodgers handing the ball off. Not that Schaub is a complete scrub or some loser QB, but that's just how it is. If I'm on defense against the Texans I'd rather shut the run down and take my chances against Schaub.

 

[Rey]

Re: the thread topic...

I don't know about run first or whatever, but in comparison to the rest of the rest of the league, we are considered a team that is very dependent on the run game. We didn't run the ball all that well last year and Tate was in the dog house/injured so I think our attempts were down some. It's much easier to run the ball on 3rd and 2 as opposed to 3rd and 4.

I don't know what the 4,000 yard stuff means either. That number puts you closer to the middle of the pack than it does to the top. 10 QB's threw for more yards than Schaub last year.

 

[ObsiWan]

It is interesting that in my original post, I did not mention the draw or screen pass, and infantrycak threw it out there in his response. I didn't go there, he did.

My point is that the when the Texans offense gets in a long situation, Kubiak seems to resign himself in his play calling that ends up with a punt on fourth down. Maybe, I should have just said that in my original post?

Since every play is designed to be successful if every man does his job properly, are you sure it's the play calling or the execution that results in having to punt?

 

[HJam72]

Texans are not a pound it down your throat no matter what kind of offense. I think whether we run more or pass more is dependent mostly on the type of defense we go against. But, the play action is extremely important to us, and it's not just the fake by Schaub or even the running ability of Foster--it's the line play starting out the same every time regardless of whether we run or pass. It's all three combined that make DBs hesitate and LBs freeze in their tracks.

I believe Schaub led the league in passing yards in 09 (when we had no running game and passed a lot). He has also had portions of seasons since then where he looked REALLY good (like early last year--remember the Denver game), but has not had a full season like that since. There's always that possibility that Schaub could have a look-at-me-mofo season, or playoff season, like the dude in Baltimore, but he's (like the guy in Baltimore) just not a top 5 guy consistently at all. Top 5 guys are not easy to get. Indy threw out a whole season to try and get another one.

 

[drs23]

Yes we are.

There's a reason why most QB's have looked better in our system than they have in some other places.

There's a reason we were able to trade Sage for a mid round pick. There's a reason why Kubiak himself harps on why running the ball effectively is so important for this offense.

There's a reason why a 5th round rookie came in towards the end of the year and did some good things and helped us win games.

We are very dependent on the play action to help our QB's out. Same thing in Washington with RG3.

And you can throw out stats about the percentage of times we run PA vs other teams and none of that matters. When we do play action teams HAVE to respect that because if it's a real hand off and they don't, we'll gash them. So they have to play honestly and can't cheat. Red Skins are even more dangerous because of RG3. When you have a notorious run game your play action is a more viable weapon.

When you are on defense and you see the Texans go to hand the ball off, you're more worried about that than when you see Tom Brady go to hand off. You WANT Brady handing the ball off. You WANT Peyton handing it off. You WANT Rodgers handing the ball off. Not that Schaub is a complete scrub or some loser QB, but that's just how it is. If I'm on defense against the Texans I'd rather shut the run down and take my chances against Schaub.

Exactly. How many times have we watched the opposing team stack the box to invade the backfield thus shutting down the running lanes? This disrupts the timing and by that time Matt doesn't have time to find a receiver. That's what concerns me about the continuity of our 0-line this year with the rooks that haven't gelled as a unit yet. I hope they can get it together quickly this season so we don't see a repeat of last year's performance.

 

[thunderkyss]

I don't know what the 4,000 yard stuff means either. That number puts you closer to the middle of the pack than it does to the top. 10 QB's threw for more yards than Schaub last year.

Just curious, how many have done it three or more times in the last 5 or 6 years.

Same thing with 1000 yards for a running back, it's seems to be the norm now. But year in & year out it's only a few guys who can do it multiple years, fewer still who can do it in back to back years.

 

[Rey]

Just curious, how many have done it three or more times in the last 5 or 6 years.

Same thing with 1000 yards for a running back, it's seems to be the norm now. But year in & year out it's only a few guys who can do it multiple years, fewer still who can do it in back to back years.

This isn't a career accomplishment deal. When Schaub is done then we can look back and appreciate his total career and the fact that he was consistently good and gave us a chance to win.

But on a year to year basis, I'm not sure that is super impressive.

Just like the 1,000 yard back. Do it for multiple years in a row and that is great and all, but for a season I'm not really wowed by that. It's good though.

 

[Texans_Chick]

I just wrote this post because nationally I kept seeing references to "run first" team without putting into game context (like holding leads) or forgetting the balance of the offense.

I just don't think it is accurate. And it isn't like there's tons to write about now.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

Since every play is designed to be successful if every man does his job properly, are you sure it's the play calling or the execution that results in having to punt?

NFL defenses and individual players are fooled by play calling way less than we talk about on message boards and talk radio. they spend hours and entire careers studying keys based on formations and down and distance, etc. Way more important to have great execution than great play calling. A team does hope to do something the defense is not expecting, just only truly happens a handful of times a game.

 

[deucetx]

Just curious, how many have done it three or more times in the last 5 or 6 years.

Same thing with 1000 yards for a running back, it's seems to be the norm now. But year in & year out it's only a few guys who can do it multiple years, fewer still who can do it in back to back years.

Wish I noticed the 5 or 6 years before I started this, heh. Last ten years of 4000+ is like this:

Peyton Manning 8
Drew Brees 7
Tom Brady 5
Tony Romo 4
Aaron Rodgers 4
Phillips Rivers 4
Eli Manning 3
Carson Palmer 3
Matt Schaub 3
Brett Favre 3
Matthew Stafford 2
Ben Roelisberger 2
Jon Kitna 2
Trent Green 2
Matt Ryan 2
Andrew Luck, Josh Freeman, Kurt Warner, Jay Cutler, Marc Bulger, Daunte Culpepper and Jake Plummer all with 1.

 

[thunderkyss]

Just curious, how many have done it three or more times in the last 5 or 6 years.

Same thing with 1000 yards for a running back, it's seems to be the norm now. But year in & year out it's only a few guys who can do it multiple years, fewer still who can do it in back to back years.

To answer my own question, 8 QBs have thrown for more than 4000 yards 3 or more times in the last 5 years. Romo, Eli, Schaub, Rodgers, & Brady have done it 3 times. For Schaub, Rodgers, & Brady they did it in 3 of the last 4 years.

Phillip Rivers & Peyton Manning have done it in 4 of the last 5 years. Drew Brees has done it for the last 5 years, he led the league in Passing 3 times in the last 5 years.

Shaub led one year, Rivers led the other.

Both Matt Ryan & Matthew Stafford have thrown for 4000 yards in each of the last two seasons.

Passer rating (NFL.com's passer rating) QBs with a 92 or better (250 attempts) in the last 5 years,

Rodgers 5 of 5 He's a machine

Schaub 4 of the last 5 years 2012 he had a passer rating of 90

Brees 4 of the last 5 90.9 in 2010

Brady 4 of 5 2008 83.7 on 11 att

Manning 3 of 5 91.9 in 2010 & he missed the entire 2011 season.

Ryan 2 of 5 Last 2 years

Kaepernick 1 of 5 Only 218 att

Smith 1 of 5 Only 218 att

Wilson 1 of 5

RG3 1 of 5




That's pretty good company once you get past all the haterade.

 

[ObsiWan]

NFL defenses and individual players are fooled by play calling way less than we talk about on message boards and talk radio. they spend hours and entire careers studying keys based on formations and down and distance, etc. Way more important to have great execution than great play calling. A team does hope to do something the defense is not expecting, just only truly happens a handful of times a game.

What does Belichick and nearly every other coach in the league preach over and over and over...?
Do.
Your.
Job.

That's the key to winning. Execution. Do your job; beat the guy you're supposed to beat. Make the blocks you're supposed to make. See the open guy and make a good throw. When the throw comes, make the damned catch (I'm still looking at YOU Casey), get what yards you can, and don't put the ball on the ground.
Rinse. Repeat.

 

[ObsiWan]

Edit...
never mind about the other stuff; I can't get over this Matt Suave look...

Dayum... Laurie must be giving Matt "Cool" lessons.
And, amazingly enough, his body isn't rejecting them...

 

[hollywood_texan]

Edit...
never mind about the other stuff; I can't get over this Matt Suave look...

Dayum... Laurie must be giving Matt "Cool" lessons.
And, amazingly enough, his body isn't rejecting them...

I like the duds. Very cool pic!!!

 

[ObsiWan]

I like the duds. Very cool pic!!!

Yeah, me too.

I mean his wife MUST have dressed him.

 

[76Texan]

In the first half of all 16 games in the regular season,
they attempted 325 passes as opposed to 222 rushes.
That's 59.4% pass and 40.6% rush.

Just go to Profootball reference to use the play finder feature and look it up for yourself (I've mentioned this a few times before.)

The rest of the league attempted 9,062 passes vs 6,506 rushes.
That's 58.2% pass vs 41.8 % rush.

Of the 12 teams that made the play-offs, only 4 had more passing attempts as a percentage of total plays in the first half.

One of them was the Broncos, with 331 pass attempts vs 214 rushes.

The other three teams are the Packers, the Falcons, and the Saints.

I certainly don't see any indication that the Texans were a run-first team, do you?

 

[thunderkyss]

In the first half of all 16 games in the regular season,
they attempted 325 passes as opposed to 222 rushes.
That's 59.4% pass and 40.6% rush.

The rest of the league attempted 9,062 passes vs 6,506 rushes.
That's 58.2% pass vs 41.8 % rush.

Of the 12 teams that made the play-offs, only 4 had more passing attempts as a percentage of total plays in the first half.

One of them was the Broncos, with 331 pass attempts vs 214 rushes.

The other three teams are the Packers, the Falcons, and the Saints.

I certainly don't see any indication that the Texans were a run-first team, do you?

The only thing that makes us a "run-first" team, is that we talk about it more than most teams & as fans, we pay too much attention to what the team talks about. Gary Kubiak = ZBS, even though he probably considers himself more of a WCO guy.

Minor correction, the Saints didn't make the play-offs in 2012