Franchise deadline almost here

[thunderkyss]

As Barwin has allegedly offered to sign a one year deal to show he can do better than '12, I wonder why Texans have not moved on that?

I'm sure they have.

He didn't say he'll sign any one year deal. I'm sure it would have to be right before he takes it.

If I'm Rick Smith, I'm using that as my leverage to get him to sign before March 12th. A one year deal is on the table, until March 12th. Then it's gone. He can sign it & try to earn a better contract in the future, either with our team or another.

After March 12th, he'll have to try to convince another team to give him a one year deal if he can't find one to offer him the big time pass rusher contract.

I want him to stay, but for a very reasonable Texans friendly deal, or a slightly rich one year deal. Other than that..... he's welcome to do what's best for him.

 

[Dutchrudder]

If teams can find a use for Bernard Pollard, they'll be able to use Glover Quin. That's pretty much what he is. A better Pollard.

Sure, and guess how much money Pollard got from the Ravens. 4 years 10.25 million, for an average of $2,562,500 a year.

Is Quin worth considerably more than that around the league? I don't think so, which is why I think 3-4 million a year for him is a decent number. I seriously doubt we are going to see the Bengals or some other crap team swoop in and offer him something crazy like 4 years 25-30 million.

 

[silvrhand]

Injuries are part of the game & every team deals w/ them. Weak excuse, but so be it. If you think this team wouldn't have been better off w/ Ryans manning the middle w/ whomever else was available as opposed to James manning the middle w/ the fillers...well I question your judgement. Ryans next to Cushing was the better option & Ryans manning the middle when Cushing went down would've been a much better option then what we dealt with. Plain & simple. James was hardly an adequate replacement for Ryans & ultimately losing Ryans made that position weaker & area of need.

Winston was better then Newton & Butler. Once again, denying that fact would call your judgement into question. Newton is still young & could develop into a good player, but he had his issues & was not on Winston's level. When you consider that Winston's salary was in the same range that Briesel & Myers are earning then he wasn't exactly breaking the bank. It seemed he was getting paid a fair amount.

You act like there was an option for keeping everyone, you make judgements on what you've seen and what you think you can lose. The OL and LB cores were one of the strenghts of the team so if you had to lose something you could lose a bit there and then pick up.

Did I hate to lose Ryans, absolutely he was my favorite Texan, but I understood that his what 6.6 or so million dollary contract was a lot for us to cover, along with another 5.5 or so from Eric Winston. I personally would have liked to keep both but the numbers just didn't work.

Simply denying the fact we had salary cap issues, makes me call your judgement into question, it's not fantasy land we can't have it all. We are making tough decisions and it just didn't quite work out for us, will it this year? I dunno we still have Matt to get sorted out

 

[tru80texan]

Those players lost last season obviously meant more to the team then many believed & we learned that the hard way as those positions struggled & now many feel they are needs. I understand that Winston & Ryans were let go because of salary cap issues, but once again those issues were Smith's doing & are still hurting this team w/ the loss of key players & the potential loss of more.

I hope you are right concerning Quin & how Smith views & values him, but I truly have my doubts in what Smith is capable of. Time will tell...

I disagree on the production going downhill concerning Ryans. His production decline early in 2011 was because he was still recovering IMO. His production picked towards the end of the season & that was acknowledged by Kubiak as well as others. Assuming Ryans production wasn't going to be effected to some degree 1 year removed from an Achilles injury in pure foolishness IMO. Holding that against him is hardly fair or an accurate judgement of Ryans abilities. Ryans rebounded very well this season & looked like his old self & it seems the new regime in Philly feel Ryans is very much capable of playing in the 3-4. I tend to believe them. The myth that Ryans wasn't suited for the 3-4 was generated by most of the same folks that foolishly assumed that James could easily replace him. I think they were obviously wrong on James as a replacement & will ultimately be wrong on what Ryans is capable of in a 3-4 scheme. Ryans was making too much for only being a 2 down LB, but that's what happens when a player starts next to the likes of Cushing in Wade's scheme. The better player stays on the field, but Ryans is still very good in his own right & claiming his production is down seems to be completely false considering his production just this past season. The numbers speak for themselves.

As far as Winston, his production may have been slipping some as a Texan but he too performed well for is new team as it seems the Texans misjudged the talent level of Butler & Newton. I admit I thought Butler could possibly fill the void, but that didn't happen & I was wrong just as they were. Once again the salary cap is a beast that was created by Smith & he has yet to tame it & it is costing the Texans quality players in the process.

I do agree that Winston & Ryans may have needed to go because of salary cap numbers, but not because of their production. They are both still quality players that are better then what we currently have at their positions & money was the reason they are no longer here & that is easily proven w/ the production this past season.

Injuries hurt us, not the loss of Ryans at the ILB position. As far as Winston he was a better run blocker, but think we broke even on the pass blocking. Longer term we'll be ok without that much tied up into a RT position.

You act like there was an option for keeping everyone, you make judgements on what you've seen and what you think you can lose. The OL and LB cores were one of the strenghts of the team so if you had to lose something you could lose a bit there and then pick up.

Did I hate to lose Ryans, absolutely he was my favorite Texan, but I understood that his what 6.6 or so million dollary contract was a lot for us to cover, along with another 5.5 or so from Eric Winston. I personally would have liked to keep both but the numbers just didn't work.

Simply denying the fact we had salary cap issues, makes me call your judgement into question, it's not fantasy land we can't have it all. We are making tough decisions and it just didn't quite work out for us, will it this year? I dunno we still have Matt to get sorted out

Read my past posts carefully & you will see I am well aware of the fact that the salary cap was an issue & the reason why I felt Winston & Ryans were moved. I'm not in denial about that fact despite you overlooking what I've have stated. You can also see that I laid that blame squarely at the feet of Rick Smith because he created the cap nightmare & continues to lose quality players in the process. I understand you can't keep them all, but we are having issues just keeping a few to be frank. Im not too impressed w/ the job he has done & depleting the o-line & LB position was far from a smart move. Im not sure how you considered those positions a strength at once when outside of the starters there was obviously not much depth to step in & take over for the players lost. That's not much of a strength IMO.

My reply to you stemmed from what seemed to be your denial that Smith's cap management, or mismanagement, was what ultimately lead to the Texans woes & not just injuries as you implied. I too am not sure it will work out this season as it seems we are possibly going to lose yet some more starters & once again it's because of salary cap woes that surely were not helped w/ Smith's decision to re-sign Schaub who just may no be the answer but a problem. Time will tell...

 

[thunderkyss]

Sure, and guess how much money Pollard got from the Ravens. 4 years 10.25 million, for an average of $2,562,500 a year.

Is Quin worth considerably more than that around the league? I don't think so, which is why I think 3-4 million a year for him is a decent number. I seriously doubt we are going to see the Bengals or some other crap team swoop in and offer him something crazy like 4 years 25-30 million.

Hey... I don't want to franchise him either, I'm expecting the same $3-4M/yr you are. $5M would be a stretch.....

However, if I'm the F.O. & I'm thinking we've got a window here, I don't think I would be able to easily replace him.

I said in another thread I'd be willing to acquire a safety in the first if the opportunity arises. I'm mainly looking at Manning & 2014.... basically the same situation. I don't think he's worth $5M/yr anymore than Quin is.

 

[Goldensilence]

I could name about half the league in guys I'd prefer but he's a good player. I also mean that there is nothing wrong with being just "good". He's a slot above JAG (just a guy) and a notch below the top tier players. "Starting caliber" player but isn't a ball hawk, doesn't have elite range or instincts, but does just about everything fairly well. I consider him above average in man coverage (unless covering very speedy wrs). Decent vs the run, but I think took some bad angles last year at times.

Pretty accurate assessment Vinny. I would say Quinn doesn't really excel at one certain thing, but he's solid all around and fits well with what Wade does. Very versatile with his background at CB the first two years in the league.

If teams can find a use for Bernard Pollard, they'll be able to use Glover Quin. That's pretty much what he is. A better Pollard.

Pollard lack true range as a safety, but makes up for it being a more classic in the box safety and fits well into that role only. Reminds me a lot of Roy Williams from OU that played for the Cowboys.

I don't think Quinn is going to have a high FA market value, he's not an elite FS and doesn't hit hard enough to be a in the box safety like Pollard.

My biggest fear with losing Quinn is that the team won't really address the position in the draft or via FA. Looking past Quinn we've got Demps and Keo. They look bad enough when rotated into the defense, I almost puke at the though of either starting.

Barwin is likely gone. I wouldn't be surprised to see him picked up by Pats, they seemed high on him when we drafted him.

I did like what I saw from Merciless when he got reps later in the season, full-time starter? Still not too sure.

 

[thunderkyss]

When you consider that Winston's salary was in the same range that Briesel & Myers are earning then he wasn't exactly breaking the bank. It seemed he was getting paid a fair amount.

If I remember right, we were paying Winston $5M/yr. I didn't think he was worth it. I don't think he is worth it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Chiefs manage to acquire Joekel, & replace Winston.

I don't understand how we're going to say Winston played well in KC, because Jamaal Charles (from Port Arthur, Texas) ran for 85 more yards than Arian did. Or that the Chiefs gave up 40 sacks & we gave up 28. & that's with Newton (a first time starter) playing next to a rookie. But he's not in Winston's class? I admit I didn't watch Winston in KC, but I know how he played.

Winston was what? A 6th year player & most likely led the team in false starts. He's a fine pass protecter when going against your powerful strongside DEs (like a Mario Williams) but against a quicker, Freeny type, or a quick/explosive guy like Clay Matthews, he's like a wet paper sack. On the playside of a run..... I don't know there's a better tackle save maybe DBrown76. On the backside, lots of room for improvement. He didn't flat out suck.. but nowhere near where he should be.

We had/have cap issues, because we paid players more than we should have. We should have parted ways with Winston after 2010. We should not have franchised Dunta. Antonio Smith, imo, only started earning his money since Wade got here. Wade Smith... great first season, but the last couple... way over paid. & yeah.... $16M+ or whatever we paid Mario in 2011. Not very bright.

 

[tru80texan]

If I remember right, we were paying Winston $5M/yr. I didn't think he was worth it. I don't think he is worth it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Chiefs manage to acquire Joekel, & replace Winston.

I don't understand how we're going to say Winston played well in KC, because Jamaal Charles (from Port Arthur, Texas) ran for 85 more yards than Arian did. Or that the Chiefs gave up 40 sacks & we gave up 28. & that's with Newton (a first time starter) playing next to a rookie. But he's not in Winston's class? I admit I didn't watch Winston in KC, but I know how he played.

Winston was what? A 6th year player & most likely led the team in false starts. He's a fine pass protecter when going against your powerful strongside DEs (like a Mario Williams) but against a quicker, Freeny type, or a quick/explosive guy like Clay Matthews, he's like a wet paper sack. On the playside of a run..... I don't know there's a better tackle save maybe DBrown76. On the backside, lots of room for improvement. He didn't flat out suck.. but nowhere near where he should be.

We had/have cap issues, because we paid players more than we should have. We should have parted ways with Winston after 2010. We should not have franchised Dunta. Antonio Smith, imo, only started earning his money since Wade got here. Wade Smith... great first season, but the last couple... way over paid. & yeah.... $16M+ or whatever we paid Mario in 2011. Not very bright.

If I recall correctly Winston was making roughly $5M, which is what was used to sign Myers once Winston was cut.

As far as how Winston performed this past season, I havent read anything that said he didn't play well this season. You mention Charles' accomplishments which says a lot when you consider they had slim to no passing attack w/ a mediocre qb & yet Charles & the o-line still had success. You mention the sack total, but that is hardly a true reflection of how well Winston performed on an individual level. That total sack number could easily be because of the other o-lineman or poor qb play as most of us know since Carr was one of the biggest culprits in taking sacks that he didn't need to take. Regardless, Winston may have not been one of the best, but he wasn't necessarily being paid like one either. As it stands, most could easily say Winston is the better option compared to Newton. That could change in the future.

Couldn't agree more on some of Smith's questionable moves & to be honest he isn't doing much this offseason to change my mind. I personally will be highly upset if this team allows a quality player such as Quin walk away & Walter remains. Walter's $3.5M could easily offset what Quin could end up making & Quin has quite a bit more to offer this team in terms of ability & youth IMO. Keeping an overpaid underperforming wr while letting youth & potential walk away would show Smith's incompetence yet again IMO. We will see...

 

[steelbtexan]

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see Quin, Casey and/or Barwin test free agency only to come back to the Texans. Chris Myers did this last year and got a good deal from us while threatening to go to the Titans. It happens every year, and sometimes the Texans are the team hosting the guy that's trying to get more money from his old team.

I'm really glad that the NFL does free agency well before the draft, unlike the NBA. I think it makes a lot of sense, because it's much easier to fill holes through the draft than trying your luck in free agency.

If FA was after the draft you would know what holes were on your team and those holes would be filled in FA. The market for FA's would be different too.

However, if FA were done last GM's would be under more pressure and I would hate to think about how Rick would respond under the gun.

 

[mussop]

The more I look at FA and the draft the more I think Quin will be back. Lots of good options will drive down the market.

Barwin on the other hand probably is gone.

 

[tru80texan]

The more I look at FA and the draft the more I think Quin will be back. Lots of good options will drive down the market.

Barwin on the other hand probably is gone.

I'm just curious as to which players you are referring to? Here's a link to FA's available at Safety, as well as other positions, & outside of Goldson, Delmas, Phillips, Landry, & Bell I don't see nothing that a team could acquire that is looking towards the future instead of 2-3 yr gap filler w/ old timers such as Woodson, Reed, & Barber. If a team is looking for potential & youth then I believe Quin is high on the list. I believe he is better then Delmas, Bell, & maybe even w/ Phillips. Goldson & Landry may be the better option, but Landry has had health issues. With all that being said, Quin seems to be a good option towards the top of th lust, imo, considering his youth & potential.

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/42077/309/2013-nfl-free-agents

 

[thunderkyss]

As it stands, most could easily say Winston is the better option compared to Newton. That could change in the future.

We'll agree to disagree on Winston. Our run game & passing game is just as good as it was with Winston. We had a three game skid at the end of the season & "everybody" is still emotional over that. Most don't remember we had multiple 3 game skids in previous seasons.

Factor in that Newton is younger with room to grow (improve), not making starter money..... I'd pick Newton in a heartbeat. I was very impressed with him before he got hurt, which just happens to coincide with when the offense started to struggle.

Couldn't agree more on some of Smith's questionable moves & to be honest he isn't doing much this offseason to change my mind. I personally will be highly upset if this team allows a quality player such as Quin walk away & Walter remains. Walter's $3.5M could easily offset what Quin could end up making & Quin has quite a bit more to offer this team in terms of ability & youth IMO. Keeping an overpaid underperforming wr while letting youth & potential walk away would show Smith's incompetence yet again IMO. We will see...

I'd be upset if two years from now we "have to" overpay Manning (again) because we don't have a good safety. This year, he should be primed for restructuring to lower his cap number, or an outright paycut (which I don't think they would do).

Imagine 2015 we're back to pre-Quin/Manning safety play.

 

[deucetx]

We'll agree to disagree on Winston. Our run game & passing game is just as good as it was with Winston. We had a three game skid at the end of the season & "everybody" is still emotional over that. Most don't remember we had multiple 3 game skids in previous seasons.

Factor in that Newton is younger with room to grow (improve), not making starter money..... I'd pick Newton in a heartbeat. I was very impressed with him before he got hurt, which just happens to coincide with when the offense started to struggle.

My man, you are putting way too much in just total yards. Charles did that production on 66 less carries and 252 less snaps than Arian with a 5.3 yards per carry average (Arian 4.1). Meanwhile they had the same average after contact of 2.2. That means Charles got more room from his front line before even being touched to get that average per carry. Also add that Foster averaged 3.7 running at Newton. Charles averaged 5.8 running at Winston. Not even close. For instance PFF grades has Winston 6th amongst RT's in run blocking. Don't even ask where Newton is lol.

As for Newton's injury coinciding with the offense that would be a bit off. He got injured in the Lions game in Week 12 (only had 10 plays yet our offense was fine w/o him) so missed the Titans and Patriots game. He was there for the offensive downturn. His absence meant little in that regards since Ryan Harris was no worse than being the same player. So Newton was there for the field goal-a-thon against the Colts. The no mas touchdowns against the Vikings, etc.

Honestly, the alternating at RT tells the story. Before the season on August 27th as stated on houstontexans.com: Coach Gary Kubiak said there will not be a time-share between the two players, meaning the job is Newton’s and Newton’s alone. That was speaking of Butler and Newton after big Newt won the job. As the season went on though and Newton had his struggles we saw time shared at that spot with Harris (Newton 774 plays; Harris 416). Good indicator he was underperforming to the level Kubes and Dennison sought.

Hopefully, the guy improves and grows. But just like his youth means it's a possibility it also means he could be same as previous and not improve at all. It's all one giant crapshoot so all we can do is hope for the best there.

 

[tru80texan]

We'll agree to disagree on Winston. Our run game & passing game is just as good as it was with Winston. We had a three game skid at the end of the season & "everybody" is still emotional over that. Most don't remember we had multiple 3 game skids in previous seasons.

Factor in that Newton is younger with room to grow (improve), not making starter money..... I'd pick Newton in a heartbeat. I was very impressed with him before he got hurt, which just happens to coincide with when the offense started to struggle.



I'd be upset if two years from now we "have to" overpay Manning (again) because we don't have a good safety. This year, he should be primed for restructuring to lower his cap number, or an outright paycut (which I don't think they would do).

Imagine 2015 we're back to pre-Quin/Manning safety play.

Im having a hard time believing you actually watched a game this past season if you can say that w/ a straight face. The run game was hardly the same as the Texans seemed reluctant to run to the right & when they did it normally didn't result in results that we were accustomed to in the past. The right side run blocking didn't pick up until the end of the season & even then when important yards were needed they normally ran it to the left.

The pass blocking wasn't nearly as efficient either. Im almost positive that I've seen you use the right side & specifically Newton as an excuse to defend Schaub's poor play. I don't recall Winston being used a Schaub's scapegoat in the past so how was the pass blocking just as good if you feel the need to blame the RT for the qb's shortcomings...doesn't quite add up. Is it the RT the problem or not or is it whatever fits the occasion? I believe it's a combination of poor qb & RT play to be honest, but Newton is young & has time to get better. I'm not sure the same can be said about the qb, but that's for another thread. Either way, we will agree to disagree because Newton is not on Winston's level just yet.

 

[thunderkyss]

The pass blocking wasn't nearly as efficient either. Im almost positive that I've seen you use the right side & specifically Newton as an excuse to defend Schaub's poor play.

This is true. After the injury, I was not so big on Newton. He gave up too much ground too early..... before contact & I believe was the primary reason Schaub felt rushed.

I don't recall Winston being used a Schaub's scapegoat in the past so how was the pass blocking just as good if you feel the need to blame the RT for the qb's shortcomings...doesn't quite add up. Is it the RT the problem or not or is it whatever fits the occasion? I believe it's a combination of poor qb & RT play to be honest, but Newton is young & has time to get better. I'm not sure the same can be said about the qb, but that's for another thread. Either way, we will agree to disagree because Newton is not on Winston's level just yet.

I've complained about Winston's pass blocking, backside run play, & penalties for quite sometime.