Keep Texans Talk Google Ad Free!
Venmo Tip Jar | Paypal Tip Jar
Thanks for your support! 🍺😎👍
Franchise deadline almost here
- Thread starter mussop
- Start date
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Oh well, neither are worth franchising imo. I'd like them both back, but not if it'll put us in more of a bind than we already are
CretorFrigg
Fire Rick Smith
Agreed, franchising either Quin or Barwin would mean we'd have to overpay them. Neither of them are top 5 at their position. They don't deserve to be paid like one. I wouldn't be against Barwin leaving, but I'd like to see Quin back, and that's the common perception I've noticed around these boards.
I'm confident the FO can work things out with Quin and not have to resort to overpay (franchise) him.
If he leaves, I think there's no way you move Reed inside. I don't know of anyone else on the team who can play SLB.....
I am not convinced Mercilus can handle WOLB, but I don't think it does any good to have Barwin "push" him. Barwin is a fine pass rusher, but he's not a double digit sack guy & that's what we need at WOLB.
So regardless what we do with Barwin, we need to find another guy to share the WOLB position with Whitney. Someone who might be a double digit sack guy
tru80texan
Waterboy
Seems you are quick to judge on Mercilus & Barwin. I can't say what either one are completely capable of, but I do know Barwin has registered double digit sacks & registered 4.5, which was half the total of the gentle giants sack total that season, in very limited action as a rookie. Barwin had a down year & didn't earn a big pay day by his own doing, but he has shown potential & has already accomplished double digit sacks which you stated he wasn't capable of...obviously that was wrong.
Mercilus has only had his rookie season & it would've been an uphill battle for him to supplant Reed or Barwin. When he did get in he had some success. I thinks it's a bit premature to assume he isn't capable of holding down an OLB position as starter based on part time duty as a rookie. He's a 2nd yr player now & young players have proven they can produce early in their careers. I'm not quite ready to cast Mercilus off after one season. A rookie could be brought in to start opposite of Mercilus or next to Cushing. I honestly believe LB could be the 1st pick & will possibly be the best available if he is capable of starting at olb or ILB.
Lurvinator11
Veteran
I read in the chronicle this morning that they will NOT be using the tag. That just means we have until march 12th to resign. It would be cheaper to resign, and make the cap hit for them small. But you don't want to give them to possibility to jump. All I know is if Quinn doesn't get resigned, I'm going to be incredibly pissed. Rick smith will become public enemy number 1 for me.
tru80texan
Waterboy
It seems the Texans have decided not use the franchise tag, as you stated, according the John McLame(McClain) of the Chronicle. Here's a link w/ a copy of the tweet from McLame.
http://www.stateofthetexans.com/?p=10659
I agree as far as Rick Smith, I haven't been overly impressed by the job he has done so far considering he did his best work, IMO, only when he felt his job was on the line following the 2010 season & by his & Kubiak's admission Wade played a key role in acquiring Watt & Reed. Losing key members of the team 2 seasons in a row because of a salary cap mess that he created his unacceptable IMO.
Lurvinator11
Veteran
I have been a big supporter of Rick, as felt he has done a good job drafting and keeping the players we need to keep. The players we let go last season, I can understand why we let them go. To me, Quinn is the player that would hurt the most if we lost him. Rick knows that, and I hope we hear a deal very soon.
tru80texan
Waterboy
Those players lost last season obviously meant more to the team then many believed & we learned that the hard way as those positions struggled & now many feel they are needs. I understand that Winston & Ryans were let go because of salary cap issues, but once again those issues were Smith's doing & are still hurting this team w/ the loss of key players & the potential loss of more.
I hope you are right concerning Quin & how Smith views & values him, but I truly have my doubts in what Smith is capable of. Time will tell...
I agree with you for the most part .... I dont think either is worth the franchise number.
Just wonder , what do you think Quin's value is both to the Texans and on the open market.
Lurvinator11
Veteran
Not only were they let go due to salary cap issues, but their production was on the downhill. As an every other down back, ryans was being overpaid. Plus he didn't fit well into the system. I'm glad we got value for him. Great player, just didn't fit well in a 3-4 scheme. Winston seemed like he had already hit his peak, and we weren't going to get much more out of him. That and he committed a lot of penalties. Sure, losing them hurt our team a bit, but I feel like we could get better production through the draft.
SheTexan
Hall of Fame
After our past discussions on RS, this really gave me a good laugh. You know my feelings about him, and they haven't changed. I backed off posting about my intense dislike for him because of you, and now all I've gotta say is I TOLD YA SO!! Our failure to make it to the SB last year lies solely at his feet, JMO!!! I'm not gonna debate the issues either because it only leads to arguments, and besides, what's done is done, and we have to move on.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
I think Quin has high, high value. He can man up on slot or TEs effectively and is stout against the run. He fits our scheme very well. He is everything that Wade would want in a safety for his scheme. It is very important for us to either keep Quin, or to replace him with a very competent player. He is absolutely key to our defense, without him we are much, much worse on defense.
Quin is certainly worth top 5 safety money for not only his versatility but for what he means to our team. He is a leader to not only younger guys but vets view him that way as well.
Not retaining Quin would be a huge mistake in my opinion.
Lurvinator11
Veteran
Wow. Look at the classy attitude from shetexan. I will not concede my opinions on him and admit you were right, because you weren't. I would be upset if I we lose Quinn, but that doesn't automatically overturn every good thing RS ha done for this team, which you foolishly overlook due to your warped and biased view. And no, it does not solely lie at his feet. This is a team game, not a blame game. The failure of our team lies on the team, not the GM whose sole responsibility is to sign players who are good for our team, which he has done.
tru80texan
Waterboy
I disagree on the production going downhill concerning Ryans. His production decline early in 2011 was because he was still recovering IMO. His production picked towards the end of the season & that was acknowledged by Kubiak as well as others. Assuming Ryans production wasn't going to be effected to some degree 1 year removed from an Achilles injury in pure foolishness IMO. Holding that against him is hardly fair or an accurate judgement of Ryans abilities. Ryans rebounded very well this season & looked like his old self & it seems the new regime in Philly feel Ryans is very much capable of playing in the 3-4. I tend to believe them. The myth that Ryans wasn't suited for the 3-4 was generated by most of the same folks that foolishly assumed that James could easily replace him. I think they were obviously wrong on James as a replacement & will ultimately be wrong on what Ryans is capable of in a 3-4 scheme. Ryans was making too much for only being a 2 down LB, but that's what happens when a player starts next to the likes of Cushing in Wade's scheme. The better player stays on the field, but Ryans is still very good in his own right & claiming his production is down seems to be completely false considering his production just this past season. The numbers speak for themselves.
As far as Winston, his production may have been slipping some as a Texan but he too performed well for is new team as it seems the Texans misjudged the talent level of Butler & Newton. I admit I thought Butler could possibly fill the void, but that didn't happen & I was wrong just as they were. Once again the salary cap is a beast that was created by Smith & he has yet to tame it & it is costing the Texans quality players in the process.
I do agree that Winston & Ryans may have needed to go because of salary cap numbers, but not because of their production. They are both still quality players that are better then what we currently have at their positions & money was the reason they are no longer here & that is easily proven w/ the production this past season.
drs23
Veteran
I believe I'm one of many that agree 100%. They need to find a way to do it. GQ is WAY to important as a major cog in the defensive machine to let get away. If he hits the open market, he's gone. That will/would be a sad, sad day in Texanville.
tru80texan
Waterboy
Managing the salary cap & players is not a team game, it's a Rick Smith & FO responsibility. Failing in that area is on Smith IMO. Obviously not all of decisions have been the right ones or the Texans wouldn't continue to be in salary cap despair & losing quality to players. I understand it happens to all teams, but others seem to find ways to keep quality players or replace them w/ such as opposed to always hoping that the teams needs can be filled yr in & yr out by a rookie...very similar to what we are once again hoping for this year.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I would like to keep Quin but where do you get all this leadership stuff from?
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Jonathan Joseph has made comments several times in regards to Quin's natural leadership ability. Early on he spoke about encouraging Quin to embrace his natural ability to be a leader. He and another Texan, maybe Manning, spoke about it again last year. I would have to look up the quotes, but they are somewhere for sure.
Here is an article after the season was over where JJ stressed the need to retain Quin: http://www.csnhouston.com/football-houston-texans/talk/joseph-gap-between-texans-pats-not-big
I'll find some old quotes today.
I don't see how one could be happy with Barwin & not happy with Mario. Even before the $100M pay day. If Mario had a season like Barwin had in 2012, it would be straight for the chopping block.
I don't think Barwin is a double digit sack guy. I think Wade's system got Barwin double digit sacks. Had he been a true double digit guy, I believe he would have been approaching 1 sack per game kind of numbers; partially due to natural ability, partially due to the system. You take a 5-6 sack/year guy & put him at WOLB he should get you about 11 sacks (& all the pressures & hurries that go along with them). You take a 10 sack guy in Wade's system at WOLB, you should have a 16+ sack season. To get 11 & then follow it up with 4-5.... when he was healthy all year, he's not the pass rusher we need. But you're right, it's only been 4 years. He's got great potential.
I'd like to see him on the strong side & get me those 5-6 sacks from there. With Watt, Antonio, and a true menace on the weakside, maybe we'll get 8 sacks from him.
I'm not assuming Mercilus can't be the guy we need at WOLB. I just don't want to put all our eggs in that one basket. I'd start him at WOLB, then I'd get a pass rushing specialist to back him up, could be Braman, could be a 4th or later pick, could be an UDFA, could be a street FA.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
I thought Mercilus was pretty effective when he saw snaps as a rookie. I'm more excited about his development than any pass rusher we have drafted since Mario, maybe more than Mario because he is not that expensive.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Don't spend too much time on it. I take those kinds of quotes as JJo and Manning being leaders and trying to develop Quin into one rather than they already are looking to him for leadership. JJo is the sideline leader (by observation) for the DB's. Locker room I won't pretend to know.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Yea, it gave you the impression that they see potential in him in that role as a young player.
I'm high on Merci
But second year players don't always have monster seasons like Watt did. It's important that we get pressure from the edge. Too important to go with only Mercilus as our potential outside pass rusher.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Just curious as to which safeties people rank above Quin. Personally, I think he ranks very highly, but can't honestly say I know who I'd put ahead of or behind him. So I'm curious what people's thoughts are. I know that Quin in this system is different from some of the other top safeties would be in this system.
silvrhand
All Pro
Injuries hurt us, not the loss of Ryans at the ILB position. As far as Winston he was a better run blocker, but think we broke even on the pass blocking. Longer term we'll be ok without that much tied up into a RT position.
silvrhand
All Pro
I'm sorry while Quin is an ok safety he's not like it's top 5 in the league, we just haven't had good safety play in a long time noone remembers what it looks like.
Ed Reed
Troy Polamalu
Weddle
Goldson
Wilson
Byrd
CretorFrigg
Fire Rick Smith
In addition to that, I'd include Kam Chancellor and Earl Thomas of the Seahawks. They've been playing lights out defense, and they haven't been getting any recognition.
Eric Berry is a great safety, Goldson of the 49ers (don't know his first name).
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
I would say Eric Berry, Earl Thomas, Dashon Goldson, Eric Weddle, and Troy Polamalu all rank ahead of Quin in terms of value. I don't think Quin is a top 5 safety right now but he one of the best of the rest and still is young, with alot of football left it would seem.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...barwin-on-joining-patriots-that-would-be-nice
looks like Barwin wants to test the open market.
looks like Barwin wants to test the open market.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
When Barwin was in the draft, the Patriots were very interested in him. It wouldn't be surprising to see them pick him up.
tru80texan
Waterboy
Injuries are part of the game & every team deals w/ them. Weak excuse, but so be it. If you think this team wouldn't have been better off w/ Ryans manning the middle w/ whomever else was available as opposed to James manning the middle w/ the fillers...well I question your judgement. Ryans next to Cushing was the better option & Ryans manning the middle when Cushing went down would've been a much better option then what we dealt with. Plain & simple. James was hardly an adequate replacement for Ryans & ultimately losing Ryans made that position weaker & area of need.
Winston was better then Newton & Butler. Once again, denying that fact would call your judgement into question. Newton is still young & could develop into a good player, but he had his issues & was not on Winston's level. When you consider that Winston's salary was in the same range that Briesel & Myers are earning then he wasn't exactly breaking the bank. It seemed he was getting paid a fair amount.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
I could name about half the league in guys I'd prefer but he's a good player. I also mean that there is nothing wrong with being just "good". He's a slot above JAG (just a guy) and a notch below the top tier players. "Starting caliber" player but isn't a ball hawk, doesn't have elite range or instincts, but does just about everything fairly well. I consider him above average in man coverage (unless covering very speedy wrs). Decent vs the run, but I think took some bad angles last year at times.
That's not what people said at all. They're saying, and I agree, that Quin isn't worth franchising. There's a big difference. Quin is good and we'd like him back but he's not elite at his position and not worth top 5 money/franchising.
Exactly. What would we be giving up if we allocated franchise money to Quin? Perhaps the ability to sign a F/A WR or ILB...? I don't know, I'm just wondering aloud.
And at the end of the day, it's really kinda up to Wade.
deucetx
Rookie
Perfectly said. I was making a list in response then realized 'Damn...this is longer than I thought'. This right here covers it perfectly. Right now it's more about what he means to the Texans than what he is compared to the other safeties so they should do what they can to bring him back but don't go overboard and put yourself in a hole for future signings/extensions. Not often you hear about safety contracts going the way of absurd though so there's that.
Unfortunately with Byrd and Wilson off the free agent listing that means Quin just moved up more and if his agent knows his business he'll tell Quin to test the market because someone will seek his services at this point.
I don't think Quin is a top 5 safety. But I don't think he should be compared to guys like Byrd either. They play the position totally different & I think our system demands Quin plays the role he is. Byrd would be more like what we are asking (or should be asking) Manning & our Dime Safety to be doing.
If we're asking Quin to play centerfield ball hawk.... you're right, he is not that guy & never will be. But that's not at all what we're asking him to do.
Ed Reed is an excellent safety, but I don't think he could do what Quin is doing. We wouldn't ask him to, he's a different player all together.
SheTexan
Hall of Fame
I responded to your PM! Enjoy the board, it's the BEST!!
I wish you well She Texan!!
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
I think there will be a team that's willing to pay him more than what he's capable of putting on the field. It happens every year, right?
Honestly, I'm not sure what his value is to the Texans. Like Vinny ( I think) said, Quin's an average joe as a player that might have decent coverage skills. It's just the fact that Manning and Quin have been the best Safety's we've had here that is raising Quin's worth to the fans.
I want Quin back, but surely not for the 6.9 tag amount. I might put a 3.5-4.5 value on him. What do you think?
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see Quin, Casey and/or Barwin test free agency only to come back to the Texans. Chris Myers did this last year and got a good deal from us while threatening to go to the Titans. It happens every year, and sometimes the Texans are the team hosting the guy that's trying to get more money from his old team.
I'm really glad that the NFL does free agency well before the draft, unlike the NBA. I think it makes a lot of sense, because it's much easier to fill holes through the draft than trying your luck in free agency.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
I hope we can retain at least Quin and Casey. Getting quality safety play is not easy and is often what separates good from great defenses, so losing Quin would be a big loss to the team and would create perhaps the team's largest void.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
I think we will retain Quin, as I don't think he has much value around the league. He's not exactly a plug-and-play safety that fits all schemes. I think his value will be limited and his market small, but it only takes 1 team to bid up the price against us. I'm hoping we get him for about 3 million a year at most. He's a good player, but not great, and I can't see him making more money than Manning.
Casey I think deserves the minimum. He's easily replaceable through the draft if some other team thinks he's worth anything more than that. I don't really see him finding a new home as a TE, and certainly not as a FB. We really need a TE that can block well, so I would be happy to replace Casey with Delanie Walker if he's not too expensive. We can find a UDFA fullback if need be.
Barwin will be tricky. He had one good season and one bad season, so I don't know what his market value will be. I suspect he will get between 3-5 million a year with low guaranteed money. He's still young and can develop more, so I could see a rebuilding team making a bid for him that we can't afford to match.
If teams can find a use for Bernard Pollard, they'll be able to use Glover Quin. That's pretty much what he is. A better Pollard.