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Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates
- Thread starter Lurvinator11
- Start date
I know you aren't talking to me but I think that's apples and oranges. If the Bengals still had a healthy Carson Palmer and Dalton was the heir apparent, then I'd probably be okay with that situation. Although I might keep looking to see who I could draft to "push" Dalton.
The Miami QB situation is just chaos. Has been for several seasons. And yeah, I would have drafted someone to push Yates just like Kubiak picked up Keenum so Yates wouldn't get too "comfortable".
No, this isn't apples & oranges. My question is, do you think Yates is good enough to start in the NFL.
Not if he's good enough to start on this team. The Bengals are "comfortable" enough with their QB situation that they're going into next season with Dalton as their starter. There's no question about it. There won't be any QB competition in TC. When they bring another QB to the team, it will be as Dalton's back up.
Tj is in a situation now, where he won't start. That doesn't change his ability to start.
drafting someone to push Yates is not the same as drafting a QB in the top 10. Even a second rounder wold be considerable more than "pushing" a QB. You're saying you are not 100% that Yates is your guy.
If you're talking about a 5th rounder... he's not a threat to your starter. A UDFA, he's not a threat. If you draft a first rounder & a 4th rounder, you're admitting the QBs on your roster last season are ****.... (& we picked one of them up).
Take Schaub out of it. If you were a QB hungry team, would you feel good about Tj Yates starting for your club?
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I'd be worried but hopeful.
I saw enough from him last year to think that he could grow into a good QB, possibly even a great one. If everything went right and he progressed the way he should, then I'd be very happy.
But QBs don't always progress. Some guys show you some talent and then never seem to mature. There was a time after his first or second season that Jim Everett was expected to be a great QB and he just fell apart. I'd be very scared that the Yates we had last year is the Yates we're going to continue to get and that's not good enough.
So I'd be worried.
So you just don't want to say until it's already been proven, you'd like to have the benefit of HIndsight...... nothing wrong with that.
Can you look at Dalton & tell me whether or not the Bengals should focus on preparing their QB for game day, or if they should be looking for another QB?
Can you look at Newton & tell me whether the Panthers would be better off working with Cam or if they should be looking for their QB of the future?
Can you look at the Arizona Cardinals & tell me if you think it was a mistake or not, to not draft a QB in the first round?
If you cannot answer those three questions with a yes, then you're probably not qualified to answer my original question.
It doesn't matter that QBs don't always progress. It doesn't matter if his name is Tj Yates, Cam Newton, Ryan Leaf, or Drew Brees. There comes a time when some general manager has to make that decision, do they have their starter or not.
If you don't think Tj is a starter, that's fine. There's no harm in that. Next year, we better draft a QB we think can be that guy, facilitate a trade to bring that guy here, prepare to overpay for Matt Schaub, or one way or another have a contingency plan in the event that we can't keep him.
If you think Tj can be that guy, then you can make Schaub a reasonable offer this year. Not too much, not too little, give yourself a way out. If he signs, then you save yourself from having to compete with truly desparate teams in 2013.
If you're stuck on "it depends, let's wait & see" you're better off going with option one, because you ain't got your guy.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
First off, you're approaching this like you're the general manager. I got news, you ain't. And neither am I.
Since I'm not someone who's in charge of making the decision, I don't have access to enough information to make that decision. Because... I'm a fan and I understand that I'm a fan.
I'm not Obsi-wan. I don't remember what your original question was and I don't give a rat's ass what your original question was. I was responding to the question that I quoted in my post.
If you had asked me after a season of Peyton Manning or Drew Brees or Jim Druckenmiller in their rookie seasons, I would be giving you the same exact answer I gave you about TJ Yates. I'm not claiming to be prescient and I'm not claiming to be an expert on QB development.
As a FAN, I'd be perfectly happy if the GM and Coaching Staff decide that Yates has shown them that he has what it takes. But as a fan, all I can do is take a look at the moves they make and try to figure out what they wrt Yates and his development.
Based on those alone, they seem to be comfortable with him being their prospective #1. At least until they make moves to prove otherwise. The moves they've made this offseason seem to me to say that they expect TJ to develop at least into a competent backup if not into something more.
BTW, if you look at the questions you asked, you didn't ask them as yes/no questions so no one can answer them with a "yes." And wrt those questions:
1 - I think Dalton could develop into a great QB. If I were the Bengals, I wouldn't be looking for a starter.
2 - I think Newton could develop into a great QB although I expect him to have a few good years and then fall apart. I wouldn't be looking for another QB at this point if I were them.
3 - The Cardinals are a little more problematic. I thought Kolb was going to play a lot better than he did. I'm not totally sold that Kolb is a washout, but he could be. The Cards might not have a choice about this, though. They've sunk a lot into him and they may have to find a way to make the QB position work with what they've got. Whisenhunt could be sunk.
That was my original problem. My bad.
But that was a good post you made.... maybe we should piss you off more often.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
I have no problem playing GM 
to me TJ Yates has a higher likehood of turning into Drew Brees than a Matt Schaub type of QB. He has some grit to his game/toughness with good escapability, he has quick release & competitive edge/accepts responsibility. Might as well get this off my chest while I'm at it as well. Schaub just isn't athletic enough in my book, reminds me of Dan Fouts in the pocket. Puts up great stats but never wins big games when they count. While his Gomer Pile looks & disinterested mannerisms on sideline have nothing to do with anything it still bothers me.
to me TJ Yates has a higher likehood of turning into Drew Brees than a Matt Schaub type of QB. He has some grit to his game/toughness with good escapability, he has quick release & competitive edge/accepts responsibility. Might as well get this off my chest while I'm at it as well. Schaub just isn't athletic enough in my book, reminds me of Dan Fouts in the pocket. Puts up great stats but never wins big games when they count. While his Gomer Pile looks & disinterested mannerisms on sideline have nothing to do with anything it still bothers me.
I have no problem playing GM
Well, we know athleticism isn't the end all be all of QBs. Kurt Warner is going into the Hall of Fame, he's won multiple Super Bowls & was an MVP. & he's put up some stats.
But he's probably about as mobile as Schaub.
So it's okay not to be mobile, but, you've got to have something else to make up for it. Warner had a hall-of-famer who was probably the best baller of all time.... in St Louis.
Warner had an understanding of the game that allowed him to break down defenses way before the snap & a way to communicate with his receivers that had to have been telepathic.
I think Matt is getting there with his understanding of the game. How else is he able to rack up the stats he does year after year? But he ain't there yet.
But I think you hit the nail on the head with your statement about Yates. Grit & game/toughness... if he can step those up a notch like he did in 2009, he can be Warneresque in my opinion.
One more thing.
IF Schaub had that "grit & game/toughness" I bet he would have a big contract with the Texans right now.
I'll admit I was wrong, I was calling it leadership. But you're right Beerlover, it's grit/toughness that he's missing. That competitive edge on every play.
IF Schaub had that "grit & game/toughness" I bet he would have a big contract with the Texans right now.
I'll admit I was wrong, I was calling it leadership. But you're right Beerlover, it's grit/toughness that he's missing. That competitive edge on every play.
Does schaub have grit? Hmmmmm. I honestly don't think of grit and scrappiness when it comes to schaub, but I'm not ready to say he isn't that guy.
I think part of that perception of Yates is because of the situation he was put in and he also played in games that mattered at the end of the year.
I think if schaub had been in those games where the intensity was turned up he might be thought of differently. I dunno.
What I do know is schaub should be the starter this next season until proven otherwise.
I think part of that perception of Yates is because of the situation he was put in and he also played in games that mattered at the end of the year.
I think if schaub had been in those games where the intensity was turned up he might be thought of differently. I dunno.
What I do know is schaub should be the starter this next season until proven otherwise.
For the record, I'm not saying any different.
All I'm saying, IMO, I would hitch my wagon to Schaub, like we're tied to AJ, for many, many years to come if he had that kind of tenacity. We wouldn't be talking about Schaub playing on the last year of his contract & having to prove his toughness.
The injuries don't bother me one bit.
I would. I'd still have concerns like anyone else, but I would still beleive in the guy to grow into the job.
Actaully Warner has one Super Bowl win, in 2000 againt the Titans.
He lost two. One with the Rams (2001 vs. Patriots) and the other as a Cardinal (2008 vs. the Steelers).
Still a great QB, though.
if this is your bottom line question my answer is no. The Yates I saw last season is not the long term answer for this franchise; not like Luck, Newton, RG3, et. al. are the perceived long term answers for their respective teams.
I could be all wrong but something tells me that if Schaub's injury had been career-ending, Smithiak would be looking for someone else to start.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
What he said.
I like TJ's long term potential but I swear it is like someone has been handing out ecstasy pills along with pictures of TJ. I mean seriously, we had a projection today TJ would be closer to Brees than Schaub and TJ hasn't even sniffed Schaub level yet.
But I love how folks keep coming up with new ways to slag Schaub. The leadership thing didn't pan out so well since every player and coach around say he is a leader so the new euphemism for "I don't like him but can't really explain it" is "he doesn't have grit like TJ."
Personally I thought that was just an acknowledgement that there are different QBs. Not necessarily that Brees is on another level, just different types of QBs.
Coach speak. Unless he's really screwing the pooch, you're not going to find anyone associated with this organization saying that Schaub is anything less than a leader because they know as the QB he is supposed to be.
I don't see it. I see a quitter.
Many people will tell you Donovan McNabb was a great leader for his team when he was the QB for the teams he QBed. I don't think he ever was. Too childish. Great talent. Poor leader.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Yeah 'cuz Seth Payne has any reason to engage in coach speak. Dude essentially never played with Kubiak, got cut by him and never played with Schaub - now there is only one person he played with on the team. Yet he went out of his way to use Schaub as an example of leadership while talking to a different team.
Of course "coach speak" is the easy out for anyone who wants to disagree with players.
Sorry you see quitter - for you that is.
I'm not the only one. It's not a figment of my imagination. You may not agree with that assesment.
But that's ok. There will be questions of Schaub's leadership until there ain't. It doesn't matter how many players say what...
People watch Schaub & for whatever reason they don't see a leader. We don't see a guy who can win a Super Bowl. Sure he can be on a team that wins a Super Bowl like some other QBs have.
He played in what, 8 games last year. How many did he win? None. He's a system QB that played the system well. The Defense won most of the games that Arian Foster didn't.
I'm not hating on Schaub. He's a good guy. He's a good QB. He's just not a leader.
You'll have to elaborate here.
Injury prone, perhaps. But a quitter? No.
A quitter wouldn't have been on the sidelines helping TJ when ever and wherever he could like Schaub did. A quitter wouldn't have been pushing himself to rehab ahead of schedule (if you believe the team propaganda). A quitter wouldn't have kept playing with the injuries he had before Haynesworth finished him off. And we all saw that Schaub wasn't 100% but he didn't take himself out, he kept going ...playing thru the little nicks... and even after planet Haynesworth landed on him, he finished out the half until the doctors pulled him out of the game.
But it's totally possible I missed something you picked up on so I need a bit of clarification on this quitter assessment.
I disagree with that.
If that were the case they'd have brought in better competition for the #2 position.
Schaub coming off a serious injury (again) and they are going to go with a guy they don't have much faith in as the back up when they clearly are thinking superbowl?
I doubt that. Based in past history there is a good chance Yates could be qb'ing this team at some point next year and not due to a blowout.
Based on what you saw last season? Pfffttt. Then you talk about two qb's that haven't played a down of NFL football as a comparison?
Yates was a rookie last year. Had he played much better than he did schaub would be out of a job right now. Yates rookie mistakes is what has allowed schaub to re claim his job.
You're right. He definitely deserves credit for that. That was tough.
But it's totally possible I missed something you picked up on so I need a bit of clarification on this quitter assessment.
Same thing I've been saying. He gives up to easily on plays. IMO. Granted, I don't have the same vantage point as he does, or the players & coaches. But that's what I see.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
TK, I sometimes wonder if you truly believe some of the hogwash you type or just simply being the contrarian of the board.
I'm not going to say that Schaub's the answer, but he's far better and more experienced than TJ. I've been watching the entire season over again and it's clear as day the offense is twice as productive with Schaub.
Good grief...we need some dadgum training camp around here! Rookies report Sunday
I'm not going to say that Schaub's the answer, but he's far better and more experienced than TJ. I've been watching the entire season over again and it's clear as day the offense is twice as productive with Schaub.
Good grief...we need some dadgum training camp around here! Rookies report Sunday
On the bolded, I do not see anyone advocating a position that TJ is like Luck, Newton, RG3.
But, I got news for ya', pal, unless you want to endure another 2-14 season for a top pick in the draft, we ain't getting a Luck, Newton, RG3, etc., any time soon.
So we either trade for value (i.e. Schaub) or we try to find a gem the rock pile (hopefully TJ).
I think it's delusional and a little shallow to even bring those names into the conversation, simply because it's unrealistic scenarios. Almost like bringing Manning and Brady into a conversation about Schaub. It is pointless.
I always thought you liked and respected Kubiak.
This statement tells me that you are questioning his analytical skills and coaching choices at a position that is his known strength (QBs).
Like Rey mentioned, I think Kubiak would have found someone for the #2 spot if he did not believe in TJ. Schaub's health is unknown quantity for a 16+ game schedule right now. That's not a knock on the guy, but just the reality of a QB coming off a severe injury that has been known to end careers.
You cannot have it both ways. You either believe Kubiak's judgment on QBs, or you don't.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
GRAMMAR NAZI: "too easily."
But seriously, giving up on plays and being a quitter are two totally different things to me.
Schaub has shown the ability to stand in the pocket and deliver when the hit is coming. But he's been taught to get rid of the ball rather than take a negative play and that's something that's developed as time has gone on. Lots of times what you're calling "giving up too early" is actually making an intelligent play.
Lots of QBs hold the ball too long and then either take the sack or force the ball into coverage and a possible int. Schaub getting rid of the ball like he does is a sign, to me, of his maturity more than a red-flag about his mental state.
Being a quitter, on the other hand, is a different and much more serious charge. That means not even trying. That means ignoring down and distance and laying down and taking sacks out of fear and not really trying. I've never seen Schaub do that. He's always been good in pressure situations. He's always seemed to be trying to win the game instead of just survive it.
Being a quitter is having a hangnail and going on injured reserve. Schaub has played through a lot of injuries. He has to be in really bad shape to be taken off the field.
That's not a quitter to me.
TejasTom
All Pro
MSR.
Schaub seemed much better about throwing it away last year then in the past. I hope TJ can work through his progressions better and learn when to throw it away. Perhaps the Baltimore game would have been different if TJ had not tried to force too many.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
TJ needs to relax a little, if possible he was trying to hard to make plays. He needs to trust his release, focus on a smaller more defined window & let it go. The revamped OL has a chance to actually afford whoever is the Texans QB more time as Butler has a longer reach & athletic speed to thwart some of those blind side speed rushers Winston would get burned on. Schaubs speed of play development comes via vision & quickness of recognition. Yates has better foot speed & release. I just hope Texans don't make the same mistake Chargers did in Rivers vs Brees battle?
Either way it's a nice problem to have, for a change.
I've never said that Tj was better than Schaub. I said he's shown more grit. But that doesn't make him a better leader or QB.
Schaub is hands down the better of the two right now.
All I said is if the situation were different, I would be happy if Tj were starting for my team. At the same time I'm glad that he is sitting on the bench and will be allowed to come along slowly, thanks to Schaub being the competent QB that he is.
I think Schaub is good enough to win a Super Bowl with this team. I don't think Schaub is good enough to win a Super Bowl for this team. That's a big difference. There aren't many QBs out there that can win a Super Bowl for a team. I'm not putting Schaub in the category of QBs whose team won a Super Bowl in spite of him ala Dilfer or Johnson.
Trust me, it used to upset me 2 no end when Carr would take a sack & he could have just easily thrown the ball away. There were several times when I would have liked too have seen him take a quick scan & chunk it in the stands if he didn't like what he saw.... or tuck it & run towards the first down marker that is.
So I understand teaching the QB 2 throw the ball away & live two play another day (or down in this case).
But I've seen to many plays (some on third down) where there isn't anyone near Schaub and instead of holding it for another second or two, he's already tossed it out of bounds.
I complained about Schaub doing this before the 2009 season. 2009, he played a completely different game. Like he wasn't going too let his team lose. He wasn't going to let the punter on the field. He was going two make something happen. I miss that guy. That's all I'm saying. That's the guy we need to go where we want to go..... CHamPionshIP
Now I'll say this. All the while I've been complaining about Schaub I've also been complaining about not having any real talent at the skill position for him. 2009 was the year Jacoby looked like he was going to be something. OD got hurt halfway through the season, but looked like he was going to break 1000 yards. Andre took it to another level. And we didn't have a running game, so he had to do something.
So we'll see.
BullBlitz
Section 331
I haven't seen enough of Matt in must-win situations to form much of an opinion regarding his leadership.
But I hope we get to see a lot more of TJ this season.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Schaub has a very good come back record. What do you need to see? Oh but you already formed the opinion you want to see more TJ.
Why would you ever want to see your back up QB in the game much less one who so far has averaged 100 yds and 10 pts a game less on top of a 1 to 2 INT ratio instead of 2 to 1?
Those names were only used as an example to clarify my response to TK, not to suggest we should have gone after a top ten pick. Remember, TK's question was; is Yates a starting-caliber, franchise QB? ...like Luck or RG3 (or Dalton) were drafted to be. I actually agree with what your saying. Yates shouldn't be in the conversation with those guys.
Remember when we picked up Yates, we were sitting in pretty fair shape at QB. Schaub had just completed two full seasons without missing a single game and we had a freshly rehabilitated & refocused Hot Tub boy as our experienced backup. Yates, at that time, was just what you referred to, a potential "gem in the rock pile"; someone who Kubiak could possibly take a year or two to develop to step in for Hot Tub Boy as the #2 or, if we're really lucky, to be the number one if Schaub went nuts and wanted top-five QB money next year.
I do believe in Kubiak's ability to assess and coach up QBs.
And Kubiak DID bring in someone to press Yates for the #2 spot - see John Beck; I think he's here to be more than just a "camp arm". If Yates doesn't show sufficient progress and Beck shows he has something left, look for Beck to move up to #2. Before you descend upon me, I fully understand those are two big "IFs".
My reference to Schaub was totally a hypothetical scenario. I'm saying that IF Schaub's injury had been known - by the end of last season - that he would never take another NFL snap, I'm saying Smithiak would have spent the off-season looking for someone with more experience to come in and compete with Yates for the #1 QB spot. Maybe he would have invited Delhomme back. Maybe <shudder> he invites Rex Grossman back. Maybe <shudder again> we don't cut Leinhart. Maybe we use our early picks for potential stud QB (although I doubt it - I can't see us paying the premium it would have taken to move up to get someone like Tannehill).
And my faith in Kubiak as a QB evaluator is exactly why I say that I just could not see Kubiak rolling into this season, with Schaub having retired, with Yates as his #1 and Keenum and Beck as the #2 & 3 (you pick the order) without him bringing an experienced QB to challenge Yates for that #1 job.
Lurvinator11
Veteran
Man. Talk about Hi-Jacking a thread. Am I right?
Lurvinator11
Veteran
Okay, I haven't read all of the points, I skimmed through most of them. I just want to make this point though. We all know Schaub is capable, he just needed better talent around him and supporting him. 2009 for example, he was top 3 in passing right? That was with an injured OD and no running game to speak of. Which means no passing threat to the RB, since we didn't have a consistent back. Yet he was still able to to be top 3 in the league. Even last year, he had better talent, but everyone was injured. Foster missing the first 3, AJ missing a good amount of time, and just a few others from time to time all the way up until Tampa. Schaub is not the perfect QB, but he at least utilizes his options better than what TJ did. Yates has his moments, like the drive in cincy, and the first playoff game, but other games he didn't do as much as I believe Schaub could have done. That can be rookie mistakes. Fine. But right now, Schaub is the guy, and TJ is lightyears away from that period. Like I said earlier, Schaub is capable of leading us to the big game. He is a better than average game manager. I'll agree with TKS when he says Schaub won't win one for us. If anyone is going to contribute the most to winning the Super Bowl, it is going to be Our DEFENSE, and ARIAN FOSTER. But as long as we have Schaub in, things will go a lot smoother than it would be with Yates at the helm.
JMO
JMO
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
So you hope to see an offense that scores around 18 points per game vs an offense that can put up 27+ per? Makes sense.
Good post, man. Just to clarify, I have never advocated TJ over Schaub. I think Matt is a good (potentially great) QB that can lead us to the promised land if he can stay in the games.
Now about Yates; I think it is safe to assume that all fans value a championship title over a HoF QB.
That given being said, let's look at a 'scale' of Super Bowl winning QBs:
Trent Dilfer---------------------------------------------Joe Montana
On one end we have the G.O.A.T., and on the other, a QB who was a 'game manager' that avoided mistakes to let his team win games.
So the question about Yates is about his potential to fall somewhere on that scale. Can he be as good as a Trent Dilfer-type QB, who manages games and let's the team around him win games?
Because in the end, that's what this is all about. We need a backup QB that can step up, fill some big shoes, and win some games on the road to a championship.
Like you, I'm not convinced that TJ is that guy. But, I'm also not convinced that he can't be that guy, either. I try to think posiitve that he has the potential in him to be better than Dilfer, but that's just a chosen perspective on my part. I hope we do not find out for awhile.
p.s if TJ can't beat out John Beck, then cut his ass and develop Keenum for the no. 2 spot. I shudder to thing of Beck behind the center, and if it comes to that, I think I will just shut down for the season. We aren't doing anything positive with that lug nut. And for the record, yes, I am questioning Kubiak's decision to bring him into camp, but I think the Shanahan connection has something to do with it.
So you hope to see an offense that scores around 18 points per game vs an offense that can put up 27+ per? Makes sense.
I'll preface this with again saying schaub should start.
But are you suggesting that Yates won't get any better and that schaub might not struggle some coming off that injury?
18 pts/gm for a late round rookie suddenly thrown into the fire. I'd expect Yates to have grown at least a little bit and be able to lead the team to more scoring drives than he did last year.
Seems to me like people who like Yates are imagining the growth he may have and it seems like folks who detract from him don't really ponder about him growing off of what was actually a pretty good rookie campaign; all things considered.
None of us know how good or bad Yates will be in the future, but i think that is the crux of the debate.
I can't really knock either side, but I do think Yates future is bright based on some things I saw from him last year. He has a lot of work to do, but I thought the kid was really good.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Gary Kubiak was very careful with Yates in sense of keeping things simple & not throwing the whole play book @ him. Obviously Schaub has access to the entire playbook something to consider in this whole points per game argument. Not to mention level of defense rises with playoff implications. Also remember a Schaub coming out of Virgina & I doubt he would have done any better as a rookie than Yates did. FYI
Gary Kubiak was very careful with Yates in sense of keeping things simple & not throwing the whole play book @ him. Obviously Schaub has access to the entire playbook something to consider in this whole points per game argument. Not to mention level of defense rises with playoff implications. Also remember a Schaub coming out of Virgina & I doubt he would have done any better as a rookie than Yates did. FYI
I'll give you the abbreviated playbook argument but not the increase in level (I figured you meant "quality") of defense Yates faced. Not when we're talking the inability to score more than 16 pts against Carolina and Indy.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Also remember a Schaub coming out of Virgina & I doubt he would have done any better as a rookie than Yates did. FYI
Why? But for an injury his senior year Schaub was looking at not just going 2 rounds earlier than TJ but possibly 4 certainly 3. Their college records aren't even close.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Um. What about the Falcons game and the first Bengals game? He needed to step up and win some games and he did. He even won a road game against a playoff team. And then he won a playoff game. All as a rookie.
If Schaub had been able to get healthy in time for the Ravens game, we would have been golden.
Even if TJ doesn't improve, he's already done what you're saying you would want him to do. You're not sure he can do it even though he's already done it. And he should be better in the future than he was last year.
I agree with you. I've actually been making the same argument further upstream. My recent posts with ObsiWan has been more of trying to find middle ground between the two sides.
I should have clarified that I'd like to see him improve his game with consistent solid play. He made rookie mistakes last season, and I do not hold that against him like others seem to do.
His successes last season is the reason I've got faith in him. He showed some signs of clutch performance that indicated to me that he could eventually be Schaub's successor.
bayoudreamn
Rookie
Agreed, Obi....
I think Keenum is an interesting pick. For me, the question is why (but I like it, I like the guy's game). I think there are a number of possibilities that are all arguable but no clear answer, so I'm not making an argument for any of them. I'm not one to make these endless arguments ad nauseum (not saying you are...more of a reaction to the board at large). The advantage of Keenum and Yates for me is that they both have a favorable build for durability to me than Shaub and his bird legs. I used to have a friend at the gym who was like Shaub, kind of. This particular guy had amazing knowledge and success in sculpting his body....worked as a personal trainer. But he had legs that didn't develop musculature, bird legs.......and it always limited the impression of what he was capable of overall. I know Shaub is a worker and he's dedicated and driven....it's just that he's built with certain limitations.
That said, the pick says we need depth, we need training camp bodies, we need more options for development, or any number of relative subtleties.....the bottom line for me is that I think that Shaub is as good as he's ever going to get......and that concerns me. People like to point out ppg last year with Shaub in the game. I don't. I get nervous when he holds the ball....I get nervous when the stats sheet shows that he hit 4 receivers in the game and Brees hit 9.....I get nervous when he spends half of every year limping around. All of that said.....TJ is not an upgrade today. Looking back at last year and rating Shaub's production when he was healthy....I didn't see it as one of his better years. The expectation is set....whether it's 8 wins or any number higher that gets us into the playoffs this year.....every player has to elevate their game at some point this year if this team is to reach all of it's goals and I'm hoping they all elevate their play together throughout the playoffs.
I don't understand this at all. As we've seen, Schaub is just as good as he was before the college injury. Why should his draft-stock take a hit? Then imagine some other team would have picked him..... say Dallas, or Washington, even Miami, where he would have had a legit shot at a starting position. Keep in mind, I know that's the way it goes, I'm just saying I don't understand why it does.
Of course, that also raises the question, how good would he have been, if he started right away.
& to me, the biggest danger to starting right away, is a confidence question. You're going to take some shots, you're going to get punched in the mouth. Some guys can take that & keep fighting. Other guys can't.
Schaub was lucky enough to learn the game, get acclimated to the speed & talent, then he came here, where everyone (at least I was) was happy to win 8 games.
Lienart is another example. He was a shoe in as a top 5 pick. But he stayed for his senior season, played well, but still took a draft hit. Not as bad as Schuabs, but a hit non-the-less.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Don't get what? Schaub did better in college. He has done better in the NFL. A statement TJ would have done just as well is absurd.
I thought I was pretty clear.
Just doesn't make sense to me is all.
Schaub's been hurt most of his NFL career, but if we were drafting today, you wouldn't chose Losman over Schaub would you?
drs23
Veteran
TK. Why did Jared Crick drop from a probable first to hang around for us to pick him up in the fourth?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Seriously? After his junior year Schaub was in the discussion for the Heisman. Then he got injured, missed some games and fell to the 3rd round. Do you really not understand that?
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Just a quibble but technically, Keenum wasn't a "pick."
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I think you're saying "if we were to REDRAFT..." which is not what anyone else is talking about. Schaub's draft stock isn't a present tense thing, it's a past tense thing. His stock was high, then he got injured, and his stock fell. No one really knew if he was going to recover from that or if he was going to be injury prone or what.
You're looking at it in hindsight and the Cak is talking about what actually happened.