Mario movement rumors (MERGED) Signs with Buffalo $100 million

[Mr teX]

So what if someone offers foster a huge front loaded contract that if we match will kill all our cap space? if we turn it away all we get for him is a first round pick. Do you think this team would be better of with Mario and an extra first round pick minus foster or with foster minus Mario? We already know what kind of a defense we have without Mario, top 2! Now, how good would our offense of been without Foster? LOL at that.

not saying Tate is as good as foster, but Tate is younger... & he did hold his own when foster went down early in the season so i don't see why that's something that's LOL worthy. People forget that we nearly had 2 1000 yd. rushers this year.

The other thing is no team is going to give a 1st for Foster & then give him a front loaded contract. That's just too much, even for a talent like foster. Even if the 32nd overall pick is given up to acquire him, that's still 590 pts according to the draft value chart.

 

[gafftop]

1) It is true that there are not as many dominate offenses in the league. We just so happen to have NE and GB on our schedule next year. I have no doubt we can make the playoffs without Mario next season. But unless you're happy to just be there (see Baltimore last 4 seasons), we have a much better shot at a championship with Mario on our team. 2) Everybody plays nicked up in the NFL (i.e. Andre Johnson, Demeco Ryans). I could make the argument that Mario Williams led the team in sacks 4 out of 5 times from 2006-2010 while playing through those injuries. In that time span he accounted for 48 of 144 sacks (33%). That's pretty valuable to me.

We had NO on our schedule this year and Mario did nothing. Go back over the years Mario has a habit of disappearing in games.

We disagree on what gives us a better chance to go further in the playoffs. You think Mario and the draft choices. I don't want to have to count on rookies to be the difference makers next year. I want one preferably 2 proven wrs and another proven Cb vs Mario. Our D could have got us there this year without Mario. Our weaknesses against the Ravens was not the D.

Mario was the best player on a crap defense.

My feelings on Mario have to do with health and motor. Maybe the motor got better this year too short of time to tell, but the trend on Mario's health is going the other way.

 

[badboy]

Short list of teams that would like to get Mario:

Cleveland Browns, 4-3 defense that needs another DE to pair with Jabaal Sheard. They have lots of capspace to sign him to a new deal. They have picks 4 and 22 in the 1st of this draft. Could possibly give up 22 alone for Mario or #4 and a 3rd for Mario and our 1st at 26. Lots of possibilities for the Texans at #4, Blackmon or Claiborne could be there. Could sell RG3 to the Redskins for their 1st and 2nd. Then pick a guy like Decastro at 6 and a WR at 39.

Cincinnati Bengals, 4-3 defense that could use a great DE. They have picks 17 and 21. If the Texans did a tag and trade for Mario I would expect us to send Mario and our 1st for both of their picks in the 1st. I think that would be rather fair. Maybe they could toss in a 4th or something too.

Carolina Panthers, 4-3 defense with a young team looking to improve upon one of the worst defenses in the league this year. Put him on the other side of Charles Johnson and they have a good pass rush. Panthers pick at 9, which is kinda pricey for Mario alone. It may have to be their 1st and 2nd, for Mario and our 2nd.

Miami Dolphins, switching to a 4-3 defense, they will need to change some personnel for the switch. Mario would be an ideal building block to help Cameron Wake with the pass rush. They pick at 8, so I would think something like the Panthers trade I suggested would work.

Seattle Seahawks, 4-3 team that needs two DEs. They don't have a lot of pass rush, but Mario could turn that around in an easy division like the NFC West. They pick at 12, which may work as an outright trade for Mario, but I think they want a QB like Tannehill. I would expect them to give up their 2011 1st, 2nd and 2012 2nd for Mario and our 1st with hopes of Tannehill falling to 26.

Not sure why Mario would agree to any of those except Bengals; none give him shot at SB. I'm still leaning towards NE but if they win SB, might feel he is not needed.

 

[Dutchrudder]

Not sure why Mario would agree to any of those except Bengals; none give him shot at SB. I'm still leaning towards NE but if they win SB, might feel he is not needed.

Oh, I didn't really think about the playoff factor, just teams looking for a 4-3 DE that have cap space. I suppose the Falcons would be an option too, but they don't have a 1st to trade and the Texans need picks this year.

Mario doesn't really strike me as the kind of guy who only cares about winning a Super Bowl. If that's his top priority then he should give the Texans a discount and stay here. The Texans are his best option for winning a Super Bowl. The AFC South should be ours to lose for at least 2 more years, which gives us a great chance of making the playoffs each year. Even more so if he stays for 10 mill a year.

 

[badboy]

Oh, I didn't really think about the playoff factor, just teams looking for a 4-3 DE that have cap space. I suppose the Falcons would be an option too, but they don't have a 1st to trade and the Texans need picks this year.

Mario doesn't really strike me as the kind of guy who only cares about winning a Super Bowl. If that's his top priority then he should give the Texans a discount and stay here. The Texans are his best option for winning a Super Bowl. The AFC South should be ours to lose for at least 2 more years, which gives us a great chance of making the playoffs each year. Even more so if he stays for 10 mill a year.

I fully believe Mario will be a Texan but if he agrees to be traded so Texans can get compensation, it would have to be with a team strong enough to go deep.

 

[cbs1507]

We had NO on our schedule this year and Mario did nothing. Go back over the years Mario has a habit of disappearing in games.

We disagree on what gives us a better chance to go further in the playoffs. You think Mario and the draft choices. I don't want to have to count on rookies to be the difference makers next year. I want one preferably 2 proven wrs and another proven Cb vs Mario. Our D could have got us there this year without Mario. Our weaknesses against the Ravens was not the D.

Mario was the best player on a crap defense.

My feelings on Mario have to do with health and motor. Maybe the motor got better this year too short of time to tell, but the trend on Mario's health is going the other way.

Mario Williams had 0 sacks against the Saints, but that is NOT why we lost to them. First and 10 at the Saints 11 ended in a field goal as did first and goal at the nine and first and 10 at the 14 so instead of a potentially huge lead they went to halftime just six ahead. Those were more like redzone woes against a team with an explosive offense that allowed them to hang around and then they were unstoppable in the 4th when they were clicking on all cylinders.

Disappearing? Really? Can you prove your statement? I just backed my claim with FACTS. Mario Williams LED the team in sacks 4 out of 5 years, some of which he played through injuries. From 2006-2010 he played all but the last 3 games of the 2010 season. Had we not been mathematically out of the playoff hunt, he would have probably finished the season with 10+ sack (he had 8.5 in 13 games) we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. He accounted for 48 of 144 sacks in that span (33% of the teams sacks). You are ignoring these FACTS when you make a claim like he disappeared. At least prove what you are saying, I have no problem conceding to a claim with FACTS to back it (whether I agree or not).

Mario Williams was the best defender on a crap defense AND he was the best player through 5 games this season. You are making an outlandish claim to assume that because we had a decent run down the stretch that we are better off without Williams. I have no problem with someone saying we might not be able to sign him. But to make the argument now that we should just let him go because we were fine with Barwin and Reed down the stretch is absurd. At least at this point. We can discuss how "fine" we are without him IF he signs with another team. There are so many option the Texan can and WILL try to manipulate the cap and get a deal done with Williams. Unless he walks it is ridiculous to even suggest that. Because I'm sure that Texans management, the coaches, or the players do not share your view.

 

[gafftop]

Mario Williams had 0 sacks against the Saints, but that is NOT why we lost to them. First and 10 at the Saints 11 ended in a field goal as did first and goal at the nine and first and 10 at the 14 so instead of a potentially huge lead they went to halftime just six ahead. Those were more like redzone woes against a team with an explosive offense that allowed them to hang around and then they were unstoppable in the 4th when they were clicking on all cylinders.

Disappearing? Really? Can you prove your statement? I just backed my claim with FACTS. Mario Williams LED the team in sacks 4 out of 5 years, some of which he played through injuries. From 2006-2010 he played all but the last 3 games of the 2010 season. Had we not been mathematically out of the playoff hunt, he would have probably finished the season with 10+ sack (he had 8.5 in 13 games) we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. He accounted for 48 of 144 sacks in that span (33% of the teams sacks). You are ignoring these FACTS when you make a claim like he disappeared. At least prove what you are saying, I have no problem conceding to a claim with FACTS to back it (whether I agree or not).

Mario Williams was the best defender on a crap defense AND he was the best player through 5 games this season. You are making an outlandish claim to assume that because we had a decent run down the stretch that we are better off without Williams. I have no problem with someone saying we might not be able to sign him. But to make the argument now that we should just let him go because we were fine with Barwin and Reed down the stretch is absurd. At least at this point. We can discuss how "fine" we are without him IF he signs with another team. There are so many option the Texan can and WILL try to manipulate the cap and get a deal done with Williams. Unless he walks it is ridiculous to even suggest that. Because I'm sure that Texans management, the coaches, or the players do not share your view.

STATS

It is not that the Texans are better just because Mario is not on the team, it is that without signing Mario we have additional cap space to acquire players that will make the Texans better off than they were at the end of the season. Look how 2 FAs in the secondary helped this year. How much help could another WR or two and/or a CB help us next year.

Another issue, I would be curious to know why wasn't Mario's contract reworked before the season last year?

You believe want you believe and I believe what I believe. I don't think that will change and I have no problem with that.

 

[cbs1507]

STATS

It is not that the Texans are better just because Mario is not on the team, it is that without signing Mario we have additional cap space to acquire players that will make the Texans better off than they were at the end of the season. Look how 2 FAs in the secondary helped this year. How much help could another WR or two and/or a CB help us next year.

Another issue, I would be curious to know why wasn't Mario's contract reworked before the season last year?

You believe want you believe and I believe what I believe. I don't think that will change and I have no problem with that.

I have no problem with this line of thinking. You're right this is a route we would likely take IF we don't sign Mario. BUT we are not thinking like that right now. We want to get a deal done before March 13th. Free Agency does not begin until March 13th. So your argument is really irrelevant until March 13th, or whenever Mario Williams signs a contract. My argument is the reasoning we are currently using in negotiations with Mario and his agent. Yours will only come into play IF we do not sign Mario. My argument is Plan A. Your argument is the alternative IF Plan A fails.

 

[DocBar]

I fully believe Mario will be a Texan but if he agrees to be traded so Texans can get compensation, it would have to be with a team strong enough to go deep.

That's nothing more than wishful thinking. It's a lot more likely that you're bull****ting, though. There's no way that any of us fans have a comfortable feeling at all about MW.

 

[ThaShark316]

I don't get this whole "let Mario go to get other players". Fam, we ain't got no cap space, lol.

 

[gafftop]

I have no problem with this line of thinking. You're right this is a route we would likely take IF we don't sign Mario. BUT we are not thinking like that right now. We want to get a deal done before March 13th. Free Agency does not begin until March 13th. So your argument is really irrelevant until March 13th, or whenever Mario Williams signs a contract. My argument is the reasoning we are currently using in negotiations with Mario and his agent. Yours will only come into play IF we do not sign Mario. My argument is Plan A. Your argument is the alternative IF Plan A fails.

I don't want to sign Mario unless it is for two years or less at 6 mill / year or there abouts. Mario is going to the money I think.

I am still interested though on your thoughts and everybodys on why Mario was not dealt with before the season started. I would like to think the Texans FO had some idea of what the situation would be at the end of the season.

1. Texans wanted to see how he adapted to new position.
2. Texans wanted to see if he stayed healthy.
3. Mario did not want to sign. He wanted to test FA.
4. Other

 

[Kaiser Toro]

I don't want to sign Mario unless it is for two years or less at 6 mill / year or there abouts. Mario is going to the money I think.

I am still interested though on your thoughts and everybodys on why Mario was not dealt with before the season started. I would like to think the Texans FO had some idea of what the situation would be at the end of the season.

1. Texans wanted to see how he adapted to new position.
2. Texans wanted to see if he stayed healthy.
3. Mario did not want to sign. He wanted to test FA.
4. Other

All of the above, and many others. I can't recall any major extension occurring after the CBA was concluded. Perhaps the same reason Ray Rice was not extended, but most likely because of all of the accounting that needs to be wrapped up and forecast (future cap).

This issue with a top player, is not local to us.

 

[beerlover]

I don't want to sign Mario unless it is for two years or less at 6 mill / year or there abouts. Mario is going to the money I think.

I am still interested though on your thoughts and everybodys on why Mario was not dealt with before the season started. I would like to think the Texans FO had some idea of what the situation would be at the end of the season.

1. Texans wanted to see how he adapted to new position.
2. Texans wanted to see if he stayed healthy.
3. Mario did not want to sign. He wanted to test FA.
4. Other

My biggest question was IF he could play OLB? IF so, how well & for how long, not sure how you structure a long term deal off that

 

[thunderkyss]

You're an idiot if you don't think Mario would have had 14+ sacks had he played a full season. He did get hurt at the end of 20010 & he barely played the 2011 season.

But the man has played through enough injuries that I (& anyone in the NFL) wouldn't think he's injury prone, or that he would fake/play off an injury to get out of playing.

I am still interested though on your thoughts and everybodys on why Mario was not dealt with before the season started. I would like to think the Texans FO had some idea of what the situation would be at the end of the season.

Let's see how other players who didn't get signing bonuses with their contracts play it out. Like Adrian Peterson. His latest deal had no bonus.

The last 2 or 3 years of their contracts bring up their yearly pay over the terms of the contract. Without playing out the final year, Mario's earnings over the previous 5 years would be lower.

Had Mario gotten a signing bonus, the sooner he gets a new contract, the better.

There is no doubt to the Texans or Wade Phillips what Mario is worth to the team.

He will be a Texans in 2012 & beyond.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

We shouldn't be calling good standing members idiots, and we cannot expect every forecast (14+ sacks) to attain to 100%.

Keep the gloves on, but keep it above the belt.

 

[cbs1507]

I don't want to sign Mario unless it is for two years or less at 6 mill / year or there abouts. Mario is going to the money I think.

I am still interested though on your thoughts and everybodys on why Mario was not dealt with before the season started. I would like to think the Texans FO had some idea of what the situation would be at the end of the season.

1. Texans wanted to see how he adapted to new position.
2. Texans wanted to see if he stayed healthy.
3. Mario did not want to sign. He wanted to test FA.
4. Other

Mario Williams has been a 4-3 DE his entire career. Wade Phillips implemented the 3-4 scheme and envisioned Williams converting to a OLB in the 3-4 scheme. Why would you sign a player who played 4-3 DE his entire career to a long term contract when you have NEVER seen him play the 3-4 scheme? That should be self-explanatory.

 

[beerlover]

53 sacks for 54 million, 14 sacks being his career high & 4.5 career low equates to around 8.8333 sacks per year. So what 8.5 mil wouldn't be fair based off outdated, yet factual information? should it escalate because of Wade Phillips system, stay the same because there is more talent around him or should it drop based off consecutive years ending up on IR? Glad it's not my call, all I'll gotta say :mariopalm:

 

[cbs1507]

53 sacks for 54 million, 14 sacks being his career high & 4.5 career low equates to around 8.8333 sacks per year. So what 8.5 mil wouldn't be fair based off outdated, yet factual information? should it escalate because of Wade Phillips system, stay the same because there is more talent around him or should it drop based off consecutive years ending up on IR? Glad it's not my call, all I'll gotta say :mariopalm:

How much of that 54 million do you reckon he actually got, because he got no signing bonus? I don't know what the numbers would be to get him sign. We could only speculate. Based on the contracts I've seen for top pass rushers it could be an average salary of $11-$14 million per year. But most of the contracts I saw have around $30-$40 guaranteed so it they average around $5-$7 million per year guaranteed. Most people look at the entire contract an ignore the guaranteed money. That's the main thing to pay attention to. The other money usually backloaded and doesn't always get paid out.

 

[badboy]

For me it is about what the TEAM looks like with and without Mario.
Let's say that enough other contracts could be eliminated or re-worked to sign our other major FAs (& I think they can). So back to sentence one. I will use spotrac base at$13.8 & cap @ $15.1m.

I believe Mario will re-sign with 1st year cap of $8m or less allowing $7m to go get a starting FA like

ayne Bowe
#82 WR


Kansas City Chiefs | Official Team Site

Height: 6-2 Weight: 221 Age: 27

Born: 9/21/1984 Miami , FL

College: LSU

Experience: 5th season

High School: Miami Norland HS [FL]
REC
81
YDS
1,159
AVG
14.3
TDS
5

or Mario leaves allowing the full amount to be used. Even better if we get some compensation in draft picks. Either way the Texans will be better than last year. Let's not be confused, Brooks did not replace Mario. Barwin did (12.5 sacks).

 

[badboy]

How much of that 54 million do you reckon he actually got, because he got no signing bonus? I don't know what the numbers would be to get him sign. We could only speculate. Based on the contracts I've seen for top pass rushers it could be an average salary of $11-$14 million per year. But most of the contracts I saw have around $30-$40 guaranteed so it they average around $5-$7 million per year guaranteed. Most people look at the entire contract an ignore the guaranteed money. That's the main thing to pay attention to. The other money usually backloaded and doesn't always get paid out.

Every nickle with possible exception of 2011 incentive bonus which we do not know what it consisted of.

 

[cbs1507]

Every nickle with possible exception of 2011 incentive bonus which we do not know what it consisted of.

But he only got $26 million guaranteed. Since some people claim he has not performed well and is "injury prone" then he could not have gotten much more than that.

 

[welsh texan]

Every nickle with possible exception of 2011 incentive bonus which we do not know what it consisted of.

I have no way of backing this up, but I definitely remember the year Mario got snubbed from the Pro-bowl there was talk that he'd missed out on a big bonus because of it, the following year he went and presumably got the bonus.

I'd be surprised if Mario saw all of that money, he had some statistically sparse seasons when the talent around him was poor and he couldn't do it all alone.

We'll maybe find out what kind of person Mario is by the end of all this. I mean, no matter what contract he signs he's going to be set up for life, and its hard to think of a better positioned team than ours to give him a ring in the near future who's actually likely to sign him to more money.

Of course the joker in the pack could be that we don't really know how much Mario likes playing OLB, he makes all the right sounds about it, and it seems like he'd see that Wade is allowing him to be in a position to succeed, but how much of that is just professionalism and whether he really is happy doing it will play a big part in negotiations as well. Oh yeh, and the fact that Antonio Smith's contract only has one or two years to run and Mario could see a point in the future where he's asked to move full time to 3-4 DE may also be an issue. He certainly wasn't happy at that prospect this time last year.

 

[dalemurphy]

But he only got $26 million guaranteed. Since some people claim he has not performed well and is "injury prone" then he could not have gotten much more than that.

You don't understand contracts. $26 million guaranteed means that even if he had a career-ending injury in his 1st year, he would still get at least $26 million. Since he fulfilled his entire contract, he has earned all of it. The rest of the contract isn't monopoly money. It's real money that comes to a player as they continue to be employed by the team.

For instance, a 5 year, $60 million contract with a $20 million signing bonus, would break down like this:

$20 million guaranteed and handed to the player when he signs a contract. Then, the remaining $40 million is spread over the 5 years as salary.

year one-$5 million
year two-$6 million
year three-$9 million
year four-$10 million
year five-$10 million

After one year, he would've earned $ 25 million, in total, after three years, he would've earned $40 million in total.

If the team were to cut the player before year 5, then he would not earn the last $10 million of the $60 he signed for.

 

[welsh texan]

You don't understand contracts. $26 million guaranteed means that even if he had a career-ending injury in his 1st year, he would still get at least $26 million. Since he fulfilled his entire contract, he has earned all of it. The rest of the contract isn't monopoly money. It's real money that comes to a player as they continue to be employed by the team.

For instance, a 5 year, $60 million contract with a $20 million signing bonus, would break down like this:

$20 million guaranteed and handed to the player when he signs a contract. Then, the remaining $40 million is spread over the 5 years as salary.

year one-$5 million
year two-$6 million
year three-$9 million
year four-$10 million
year five-$10 million

After one year, he would've earned $ 25 million, in total, after three years, he would've earned $40 million in total.

If the team were to cut the player before year 5, then he would not earn the last $10 million of the $60 he signed for.

What about missed incentives Dale? Whats the point in having incentives in a contract if he's going to get paid that money either way? Think you may have made a slight mistake here.

The player doesn't necessarily make the entire amount of his contract just because he made it to the end of it.

 

[dalemurphy]

What about missed incentives Dale? Whats the point in having incentives in a contract if he's going to get paid that money either way? Think you may have made a slight mistake here.

The player doesn't necessarily make the entire amount of his contract just because he made it to the end of it.

That's a different issue. We're getting into what is being reported when a contract gets signed. Usually, I think, the number reported is based on salary and bonus and sometimes easily hit incentives. But, one can never know for sure.

My example was stressing simplicity. Clearly, Mario earned "essentially" all of his reported $54 million over the past six years... and, the only way he wouldn't have earned almost all of it would have been if he was released or retired.

 

[welsh texan]

That's a different issue. We're getting into what is being reported when a contract gets signed. Usually, I think, the number reported is based on salary and bonus and sometimes easily hit incentives. But, one can never know for sure.

My example was stressing simplicity. Clearly, Mario earned "essentially" all of his reported $54 million over the past six years... and, the only way he wouldn't have earned almost all of it would have been if he was released or retired.

With the egotistical nature of NFL players, coupled with the lengths a club will go to to keep their true cap situation under wraps, I'd imagine both parties would wish to quote the highest possible figure that could be attained in any contract.

Now I don't know, but I get the impression that a lot of these contracts are negotiated on the premise of some unlikely-to-be-attained incentives, such as making the pro bowl, which is definitely one i've read about years ago in Mario's contract.

I don't know, I'd be interested to find out more. I understand why the specifics of current contracts are not made public, but is there anywhere where previous contracts of retired players, or 'example' contracts written up hypothetically by out of work GM's doing journalism? I'd love to find out a little more about this.

 

[76Texan]

Mario Williams has been a 4-3 DE his entire career. Wade Phillips implemented the 3-4 scheme and envisioned Williams converting to a OLB in the 3-4 scheme. Why would you sign a player who played 4-3 DE his entire career to a long term contract when you have NEVER seen him play the 3-4 scheme? That should be self-explanatory.

1. Mario (and other guys on the team, like Barwin) had played 34 OLB from time to time the previous two years (at least) under Bush.

2. Brooks Reed played some 99% of the time as a 43 DE in college.

 

[cbs1507]

You don't understand contracts. $26 million guaranteed means that even if he had a career-ending injury in his 1st year, he would still get at least $26 million. Since he fulfilled his entire contract, he has earned all of it. The rest of the contract isn't monopoly money. It's real money that comes to a player as they continue to be employed by the team.

For instance, a 5 year, $60 million contract with a $20 million signing bonus, would break down like this:

$20 million guaranteed and handed to the player when he signs a contract. Then, the remaining $40 million is spread over the 5 years as salary.

year one-$5 million
year two-$6 million
year three-$9 million
year four-$10 million
year five-$10 million

After one year, he would've earned $ 25 million, in total, after three years, he would've earned $40 million in total.

If the team were to cut the player before year 5, then he would not earn the last $10 million of the $60 he signed for.

You don't understand contract because that is entirely false. Guaranteed money is not necessarily paid up front. The ONLY guaranteed money paid upfront is a signing bonus. The guaranteed money not paid upfront is base salary and it is dispersed over the life of the contract. The rest of the money had to be earned through incentives and meeting performance expectations. Since so many people claim he did not play well and was "injury prone" he could not have gotten much more than $26 million. Mario Williams did not get a signing bonus but he got $26 million guaranteed, which was paid over the life of the contract along with any other non guaranteed money he earned.

 

[thunderkyss]

For me it is about what the TEAM looks like with and without Mario.

But we don't know what this team looks like without Mario. We know how stacked the team looks with Mario. He goes down & our defense is still able to perform..... "next man up" looks like a phenom, but it's the result of consistently adding talent to the team.

Imagine we had no Mario Williams & we lost Connor Barwin, Jj Watt, or Antonio Smith. Would our defense have survived with Jesse Nading, Brahman, or Jamison taking major snaps in 2011?

I seriously doubt it.

Let's say that enough other contracts could be eliminated or re-worked to sign our other major FAs (& I think they can). So back to sentence one. I will use spotrac base at$13.8 & cap @ $15.1m.

I believe Mario will re-sign with 1st year cap of $8m or less allowing $7m to go get a starting FA like

Any scenario that involves losing Mario Williams means we need to find another edge rusher. Wade Phillips went into the season with three, Mario, Barwin, Reed.

Either way the Texans will be better than last year. Let's not be confused, Brooks did not replace Mario. Barwin did (12.5 sacks).

& behind Reed, we have Nading & Brahman. Replacing an edge rusher like Mario is not going to be easy. It took us long enough to get him & long enough to get the help he needs.

Barwin got 11.5 sacks with 4 other players getting 5 or more sacks, Mario has never had that kind of "help" yet has delivered similar production (even working through injury). 11.5/44=26% of the teams sacks.

Mario had 12 sacks in 2008, the Texans had 25. 12/50=50% of the teams sacks.

In 2010, the Texans had 18 sacks. Mario had 8.5 sacks. 8.5/18=47%

It's not apples to apples, & Barwin did not "replace" Mario. It is more than likely had Mario stayed healthy he would have had 20 sacks...... much closer to 50%

 

[cbs1507]

1. Mario (and other guys on the team, like Barwin) had played 34 OLB from time to time the previous two years (at least) under Bush.

2. Brooks Reed played some 99% of the time as a 43 DE in college.

1. We ran a 4-3 defense from 2006 until Wade Phillips was hired. I do not know where you got this from.

2. That may be true, but he did not "outperform" Williams in his 11 games down the stretch. Williams 5 sacks in 5 games. Reed 6 sacks in 11 games, and he failed to record a sack in the last 5 games.

 

[ThaShark316]

For me it is about what the TEAM looks like with and without Mario.
Let's say that enough other contracts could be eliminated or re-worked to sign our other major FAs (& I think they can). So back to sentence one. I will use spotrac base at$13.8 & cap @ $15.1m.

I believe Mario will re-sign with 1st year cap of $8m or less allowing $7m to go get a starting FA like

ayne Bowe
#82 WR


Kansas City Chiefs | Official Team Site

Height: 6-2 Weight: 221 Age: 27

Born: 9/21/1984 Miami , FL

College: LSU

Experience: 5th season

High School: Miami Norland HS [FL]
REC
81
YDS
1,159
AVG
14.3
TDS
5

or Mario leaves allowing the full amount to be used. Even better if we get some compensation in draft picks. Either way the Texans will be better than last year. Let's not be confused, Brooks did not replace Mario. Barwin did (12.5 sacks).

Two things:

1. We don't have cap space for free agents, man..unless I'm losing my mind.

2. Bowe's going to take #2 WR money? He's going to want what Rice got from Seattle last year.

 

[thunderkyss]

1. We ran a 4-3 defense from 2006 until Wade Phillips was hired. I do not know where you got this from.

We played out of a 3-4 front several times..... way too many times if you ask me... under Frank Bush. I personally gained the opinion that Okoye would fare much better as a 3-4 end because of his performance during that time.

If you didn't notice, you weren't paying attention, because it happened a lot.

 

[thunderkyss]

2. Bowe's going to take #2 WR money? He's going to want what Rice got from Seattle last year.

very true, he will not be signed to a 3 year $10M contract. Especially not when his first year's salary would be $475K & a signing bonus less south of $1M

:kubepalm:

 

[steelbtexan]

1.TK, we do know what the team looks like without MW.
2. You can play the what if game at all positions. Like, What if D.Brown/J.JO gets hurt etc....
3. Yes, Barwin did outperform MW the last 11 games of the season. Barwin 11.5 sacks= MW 0 sacks. Barwin numerous big plays/ MW 0 big plays.
4. I'm very high on Braman. I belive he could become a Barwin type player. The talent is there. The Texans should be looking to add depth in FA/draft if they let MW walk.

Like I've said before I'm not against re-signing MW. But only if he's willing to sign a cap friendly deal. So that the $$$$ will be there to re-sign AF/Myers Briesel etc.... But it's unlikely MW will sign a cap friendly deal. IMHO MW's worth alot more $$$$ on the open market. Life will go on without MW. Atleast it did this season.

 

[Allstar]

If we don't re-sign Mario, I'd love to see a guy like Reggie Wayne in steel blue. Of course Vincent Jackson would be great, but he'll be a little too much I think...

 

[cbs1507]

We played out of a 3-4 front several times..... way too many times if you ask me... under Frank Bush. I personally gained the opinion that Okoye would fare much better as a 3-4 end because of his performance during that time.

If you didn't notice, you weren't paying attention, because it happened a lot.

4-3 was our base defense. If we ran a few snaps of 3-4, I guess I didn't notice. I guess that's not too surprising because teams implement wrinkles of other schemes all the time. Some downhill running teams, implement zone blocking wrinkles every now and again (Baltimore does it). I even seen some other 4-3 teams mix in some 3-4 looks and vice versa. It's not like it was our main defense. It was just that, a wrinkle. Mario Williams was still a 4-3 DE at the end of the day.

 

[Corrosion]

We played out of a 3-4 front several times..... way too many times if you ask me... under Frank Bush. I personally gained the opinion that Okoye would fare much better as a 3-4 end because of his performance during that time.

If you didn't notice, you weren't paying attention, because it happened a lot.

I wonder how many times you and I stated that same point .....

 

[cbs1507]

1.TK, we do know what the team looks like without MW.
2. You can play the what if game at all positions. Like, What if D.Brown/J.JO gets hurt etc....
3. Yes, Barwin did outperform MW the last 11 games of the season. Barwin 11.5 sacks= MW 0 sacks. Barwin numerous big plays/ MW 0 big plays.
4. I'm very high on Braman. I belive he could become a Barwin type player. The talent is there. The Texans should be looking to add depth in FA/draft if they let MW walk.

Like I've said before I'm not against re-signing MW. But only if he's willing to sign a cap friendly deal. So that the $$$$ will be there to re-sign AF/Myers Briesel etc.... But it's unlikely MW will sign a cap friendly deal. IMHO MW's worth alot more $$$$ on the open market. Life will go on without MW. Atleast it did this season.

1. He is refering to depth. What if Barwin or Reed goes out? Then can we say we're deep. You're ignoring the fact that these players were the "next man up" for Mario. Who is the "next man up" for them?
2. I just did.
3. That is like saying TJ Yates outperformed Matt Schaub because he won a playoff game. Please. Barwin only recorded 2 sacks in the 1st 8 weeks. So he had 9.5 sacks in the 11 games without Mario. I could make the argument that it took him 8 weeks to get comfortable in the system. Mario had 5 sacks in the first 5 games. But you cannot say Barwin "outperformed" a guy on IR. I sure hope he could.
4. You're high on Bramin but that is still what if? There is a reason he did not play much. Not saying he cannot be a good player. But it's taking a chance when you know what you got in Williams/Barwin with Reed off the bench.


Dude I don't think you even know what a cap friendly deal is so you should just stop speculating. William had a salary of $18 million. No pass rusher makes $18 million a year. This highest paid pass rusher Julius Peppers 6 years $84 million (14 million a year). Oh an keep in mind guaranteed money. $30-$40 million is the average guaranteed for top pass rushers. You can speculate all you want but the numbers will be in that realm. You're also ignoring the fact that we can restructure the deals of players we have on contract and that we have 12 other FAs some of whom might be cap casualties.

 

[Corrosion]

I'll be glad when this Mario saga is over so we can put it behind us .... and quit arguing about it.

Everyone would like to see MW back .... Some just have a limit as to how much they are willing to pay and what it costs going forward in terms of cap flexability and dept at other spots.

 

[thunderkyss]

4. You're high on Bramin but that is still what if? There is a reason he did not play much. Not saying he cannot be a good player. But it's taking a chance when you know what you got in Williams/Barwin with Reed off the bench.

Exactly.... there were games where Reed & Barwin played the entire game, because the depth behind them wasn't very good. That is the same situation that led to Mario getting knicks & bruises that turned into groins & other problems, leading some to believe he is injury prone.

This is a pressure defense, we must get pressure to be affective. Look what happened to the Giants this season, they lost their pass rushers early in the season & luckily won their division @ 9-7 because they got their pass rushers back at the right time.

Our pass rush may very well have looked as futile as theirs, had we lost JjWatt or Antonio Smith during the meat of the season & we never would have seen the Texans in the post season.

Connor Barwin has proven (to me) that he is a starter. Brooks not so much. Mario.... yes.

Good teams don't get better by replacing starters with back-ups.

You don't replace Foster with Tate, Aj with Jj, Schaub with Tate...... you don't replace Mario with Brooks.

 

[thunderkyss]

2. You can play the what if game at all positions. Like, What if D.Brown/J.JO gets hurt etc....

Which is why most of us, who know what we're talking about, were thrilled to learn Butler was returning for 2011 & equally concerned when we found he was going on IR.

Butler performed extremely well in place of Brown to start the 2010 season..... but you don't replace starters with back-ups.

Get rid of Mario & an outside pass rusher becomes your top priority in the offseason. & if Mario does reach free agency, he's hands down the top outside pass rusher.

Forget getting a WR2 in FA or the draft, outside pass rusher is much more valuable & much more of a need.

Forget Dwayne Bowe or Reggie Wayne. If we don't sign Mario, we'll be looking to sign the second best outside pass rusher in FA & (or) targeting the best one in the draft.

 

[dalemurphy]

1. He is refering to depth. What if Barwin or Reed goes out? Then can we say we're deep. You're ignoring the fact that these players were the "next man up" for Mario. Who is the "next man up" for them?
2. I just did.
3. That is like saying TJ Yates outperformed Matt Schaub because he won a playoff game. Please. Barwin only recorded 2 sacks in the 1st 8 weeks. So he had 9.5 sacks in the 11 games without Mario. I could make the argument that it took him 8 weeks to get comfortable in the system. Mario had 5 sacks in the first 5 games. But you cannot say Barwin "outperformed" a guy on IR. I sure hope he could.
4. You're high on Bramin but that is still what if? There is a reason he did not play much. Not saying he cannot be a good player. But it's taking a chance when you know what you got in Williams/Barwin with Reed off the bench.


Dude I don't think you even know what a cap friendly deal is so you should just stop speculating. William had a salary of $18 million. No pass rusher makes $18 million a year. This highest paid pass rusher Julius Peppers 6 years $84 million (14 million a year). Oh an keep in mind guaranteed money. $30-$40 million is the average guaranteed for top pass rushers. You can speculate all you want but the numbers will be in that realm. You're also ignoring the fact that we can restructure the deals of players we have on contract and that we have 12 other FAs some of whom might be cap casualties.

The more cap consumed by 1 player = the less team depth!

Not signing Mario allows the team to improve depth at a number of positions, including 3-4 OLB. There is no reason the Texans can't draft a guy at OLB and also sign an affordable FA at the position. Nobody is suggesting cutting Mario loose and not replacing his roster spot with anyone.

 

[dalemurphy]

Good teams don't get better by replacing starters with back-ups.

You don't replace Foster with Tate, Aj with Jj, Schaub with Tate...... you don't replace Mario with Brooks.

Drew Bledsoe with Tom Brady?
Reggie Bush with Pierre Thomas?
Bret Favre with Aaron Rodgers?

Bernard Pollard with Glover Quin?
Zach Weigert with Eric Winston?
Steve Slaton with Arian Foster?


and 1000s of other examples! Good organizations make difficult and wise decisions. Look at the recent history of all the consistently good teams: Philadelphia, NE, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New Orleans... their transaction history is littered with what you argue teams don't get better doing. Getting rid of Mario, in itself, doesn't make the Texans better. But, depending on how those resources are redistributed, the Texans could be much better for it.

 

[steelbtexan]

Which is why most of us, who know what we're talking about, were thrilled to learn Butler was returning for 2011 & equally concerned when we found he was going on IR.

Butler performed extremely well in place of Brown to start the 2010 season..... but you don't replace starters with back-ups.

Get rid of Mario & an outside pass rusher becomes your top priority in the offseason. & if Mario does reach free agency, he's hands down the top outside pass rusher.

Forget getting a WR2 in FA or the draft, outside pass rusher is much more valuable & much more of a need.

Forget Dwayne Bowe or Reggie Wayne. If we don't sign Mario, we'll be looking to sign the second best outside pass rusher in FA & (or) targeting the best one in the draft.

Lets just agree to disagree.

Sorry Reed didn't do enough for you to be considered a solid starter on a great defense.

If you could draft another Reed in the 2/3rd rd and save MW's 18 mil and improve the team in other areas would you?

I noticed other teams Pats/GB/NYG didn't go out and sign the #2 rated pass rusher in FA. They draft them.

I just dont get fans love affair with an always injuerd MW. Before the season started I started a thread MW will be injured in game O/U 8. The answer was U. If the Texans re-sign MW I will start up another O/U 8 thread. This time I believe the answer will be O. The reason is his offseason workout regimine will be better due to injury rehab.

 

[steelbtexan]

Drew Bledsoe with Tom Brady?
Reggie Bush with Pierre Thomas?
Bret Favre with Aaron Rodgers?

Bernard Pollard with Glover Quin?
Zach Weigert with Eric Winston?
Steve Slaton with Arian Foster?


and 1000s of other examples! Good organizations make difficult and wise decisions. Look at the recent history of all the consistently good teams: Philadelphia, NE, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New Orleans... their transaction history is littered with what you argue teams don't get better doing. Getting rid of Mario, in itself, doesn't make the Texans better. But, depending on how those resources are redistributed, the Texans could be much better for it.

Exactly,

The pro MW crowd see the potential in MW.

The crowd that says MW is a luxury item that the Texans can do with or without look at MW's history without ever reaching that potential in college and now the pros. Even though they had the #2 defense without MW. People are rightfully begining to wonder if MW will ever reach his potential.

The sky didn't fall because MW got injured and was lost for the season. I would rather spend the $$$$ re-signing the other Texans FA's and drafting a guy like Cam Johnson or Andre Branch in the 2nd rd. (They both remind me of Reed)

 

[steelbtexan]

1. He is refering to depth. What if Barwin or Reed goes out? Then can we say we're deep. You're ignoring the fact that these players were the "next man up" for Mario. Who is the "next man up" for them?
2. I just did.
3. That is like saying TJ Yates outperformed Matt Schaub because he won a playoff game. Please. Barwin only recorded 2 sacks in the 1st 8 weeks. So he had 9.5 sacks in the 11 games without Mario. I could make the argument that it took him 8 weeks to get comfortable in the system. Mario had 5 sacks in the first 5 games. But you cannot say Barwin "outperformed" a guy on IR. I sure hope he could.
4. You're high on Bramin but that is still what if? There is a reason he did not play much. Not saying he cannot be a good player. But it's taking a chance when you know what you got in Williams/Barwin with Reed off the bench.


Dude I don't think you even know what a cap friendly deal is so you should just stop speculating. William had a salary of $18 million. No pass rusher makes $18 million a year. This highest paid pass rusher Julius Peppers 6 years $84 million (14 million a year). Oh an keep in mind guaranteed money. $30-$40 million is the average guaranteed for top pass rushers. You can speculate all you want but the numbers will be in that realm. You're also ignoring the fact that we can restructure the deals of players we have on contract and that we have 12 other FAs some of whom might be cap casualties.

1. Whoever would be drafted. Cam Johnson/Andre Branch are my favs
2. Yes you did, Didn't answer the JoJo ? though.
3. For the games Yates started he was. If Schaub isn't healthy next yr then the Texans need to either 1. Look for another QB. 2. Make Yates the starter and let Schaub walk.
4. Braman/C.Johnson or Branch is great depth at OLB. IMHO (The Texans interviewed Cam Johnson at the Sr. Bowl. This could be insight into Wade/Ricks thinking on what to do about the MW situation.)
5. You have no idea what I know or dont know. So quit making presumptions about me please. (Thank you)

 

[cbs1507]

Lets just agree to disagree.

Sorry Reed didn't do enough for you to be considered a solid starter on a great defense.

He would be solid coming off the bench. ZERO sacks in the last 5 games showed how teams learned to use his "high motor" against himself. They led him upfield and the QB stepped up in the pocket. There, problem solve. He has a high motor but he is not physically imposing. With the Barwin/Reed combo you have to devise a bunch of stunts and blitzes to free him up. With Mario/Barwin not so much. Mario and Smith worked well together (9.5 sacks in the 1st 5 games). Not so much with Reed and Smith (8 sacks in the last 11 games). Wade Phillips would love to get a chance to have Williams, Barwin and Reed on the field at the same time. You can't do that without Williams.

If you could draft another Reed in the 2/3rd rd and save MW's 18 mil and improve the team in other areas would you?

I'm sure this is Plan B IF we don't sign Mario. Mario Williams is Plan A.

I noticed other teams Pats/GB/NYG didn't go out and sign the #2 rated pass rusher in FA. They draft them.

Another example of half ass truth. Those teams you mentioned did draft guys and they kept them (Tuck and Umenyiora for NY; Mayo and Wilfork for NE). You're acting like Mario Williams is coming from another team...we drafted him. We should keep a player we drafted and develop. Otherwise, we will just continue to draft and develop players for other teams.

 

[cbs1507]

1. Whoever would be drafted. Cam Johnson/Andre Branch are my favs
2. Yes you did, Didn't answer the JoJo ? though.
3. For the games Yates started he was. If Schaub isn't healthy next yr then the Texans need to either 1. Look for another QB. 2. Make Yates the starter and let Schaub walk.
4. Braman/C.Johnson or Branch is great depth at OLB. IMHO (The Texans interviewed Cam Johnson at the Sr. Bowl. This could be insight into Wade/Ricks thinking on what to do about the MW situation.)
5. You have no idea what I know or dont know. So quit making presumptions about me please. (Thank you)

1. We very well may just draft OLB for depth. But we will try to sign Mario first. FA starts March 13th the draft is in April. We have a chance to try to deal with Mario before FA starts and we will try to get a deal done before then.
2. I didn't see the J Jo question. But I am certain we would address that in the draft.
3. Please stop with the ill-advised argument. Mario was on IR, anybody who actually got in the game better have produced more than a guy who is on the sideline cheering us on.
4. Williams/Barwin with Reed rotating off the bench is even better.
5. You may be right, but I can speculate about it just as you are about Mario Williams cap figure.

 

[Lucky]

Here's a take on the Mario situation from Keith Weiland of inthebullseye.com (formerly houstonprofootball.com).

This league is defined by quarterbacks and pass rushers. Everything else is just the trimmings. Barwin had a great November, and Reed was terrific in the playoffs, but we'd be fools to let another great veteran pass rusher like Mario slip through our fingers.

I know I'm the missing link here since I haven't posted a cap page in 2 years, but the team's cap situation is what gives me pause on tagging Mario then trying to sign or trade him. I fear the team might have to cut someone to make room for him on the 2012 cap given Mario's f-tag figure would be tremendous. Best to re-sign him next month.

Btw, signing Mario and extending Foster are not mutually exclusive events. There is a priority though, and Mario is first. Foster's extension can really come anytime before any talk of holdouts come into play, which at a minimum shouldn't happen until OTAs.

It's pretty clear from listening to those that know - Mario can't be tagged. Nothing would prevent Mario from immediately signing the tender and hamstringing the franchise. Either re-sign Mario. Or let him hit free agency.

 

[Norg]

Man right now im feeling like i wanna keep mario. Lets get rid of someone else

Demco cody antonio. Somebody

I would really like for mario to play DE.

Watt,mitchell/new nt,mario