I have heard McClain state the same thing on more than one occasion.
FWIW, Barry Warner on 610 said last week that cutting Jacoby would cost the Texans nothing, and he claims to have this information from within the organization.
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Jacoby's Gotta Go/**UPDATE**Released
- Thread starter Mr. White
- Start date
I have heard McClain state the same thing on more than one occasion.
FWIW, Barry Warner on 610 said last week that cutting Jacoby would cost the Texans nothing, and he claims to have this information from within the organization.
I believed the same thing. However, I think I know where we made our mistake.
We believed John McClain.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
The point blank point is you have no idea how his contract is structured. Rotoworld rarely if ever says whether or not guaranteed money is only guaranteed for injury or is pure guaranteed.
Comprehend the difference here. I didn't claim to know the answer. You did. You haven't come up with proof of your position when repeatedly asked.
Until I see somewhere were it's confirmed where we'll have 2.5 mil of dead space I'm going with the thought that it won't cost us nearly that much. It doesn't sound like anyone knows for sure so I'll just wait and see.
PapaL
Loose Screw
A replacement for a guy and the standard we are looking for is 1.) Doesn't muff punts 2.) Doesn't run backwards and 3.) Understands what a fair catch is?
Hell I could do that! Fair catch and run my ass out of bounds before the ball hits me. Jacoby isn't making any plays running backwards and/or muffing punts so yeah just about anyone would fill in nicely and cheaper.
That's MY solution.
Hell I could do that! Fair catch and run my ass out of bounds before the ball hits me. Jacoby isn't making any plays running backwards and/or muffing punts so yeah just about anyone would fill in nicely and cheaper.
That's MY solution.
He is making $3 million guaranteed. $3 million guaranteed has nothing to do with injury. If they think he could miss time for injury, it will likely not be including in the guaranteed figure. Got it? Whether or not it was paid out this season is questionable. But if we did, it is not likely that the $3 million counted against the cap this year. So therefore, we will still have $2.4 million prorated over 2 years counting against our cap space.
You asked me where I got my information from and I told you. If you don't believe it, so be it. But don't try to play the "you haven't come up with proof of your position" card again...ok.
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No I never said $2.4 million would be due next season entirely. It would most likely be prorated if my position was correct. So he would be owed like $1.2 million this season and $1.2 next. Something along that lines.
I believe it was Super Mario that said we would have that much in dead cap space. The point I'm trying to make is no one here knows. To sit here and act like we know right now is foolish. We can speculate all we want, but its wasting time and energy. I'd rather wait and see.
And like I said, I know I've heard McClain say that his contract is on a year to year basis with no penalty cap wise for releasing him after the first year. His word isn't gospel though as we all know so take it for what its worth.
No we do actually know this. We know that he got $3 million guaranteed. Nobody can deny this. Even if he gets paid up front, it will not count as $3 million against the cap THIS YEAR (because it didn't). So if he got $3 million for this year alone, then where does this money go. It gets prorated. So even if we release him, it will count as $2.4 million against the cap for the next 2 years.
BTW John McClain's word may not be "gospel", but I'm willing to bet he never reported this word for word...
...but I would like to see proof of him saying that. What I am saying is just a hunch based on the way NFL contracts usually are constructed. But I am pretty confident that I am right.
I don't think that is true.... if he is cut, it all goes on the 2012 cap.
If, the guarantee is $1.2M for the next two years, his yearly salary is going to have to be $3.5M.... So he will cost us $4.7 against the cap if he plays & $2.4M if he's cut?
So even with $2.4M in dead money, we're saving $2.3M in cap room.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
I have not seen anything to suggest that it will be cost effective to keep him next year.
No it won't. Most contracts are constructed that way. Any money given up front is usually prorated over the duration of the contract.
Yes it would cost us more money to keep him. He kind of signed a 3 year $10 million contract.
But who would we have to replace him? It would likely cost more than Jacoby's salary to get a FA, so maybe a we get a gem in the Draft or maybe Lestar Jean pans out (or maybe Jacoby pans out, he's not a bad #3 WR imo and gets paid like one). Anyway, there are other people that will likely be cut before they make a decision on Jacoby. They have until August 4th to get under the cap, so a decision on Jacoby's future with the Texans would most likely come after training camp.
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Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Jacoby is like that really hot chick at a gentlemen's club. She looks like she would be a great chick to get dances from, but then you get the first one and it's not so good but you have to pay her anyway. You're kind of overwhelmed with the "potential" so you get a few more dances. As it turns out, she is a terrible dancer, but you have to pay her... That said, it doesn't mean you shouldn't "cut bait" at some point.
Time to "cut bait" with Jacoby aka Porsha or Olivia, or Nadia.
Time to "cut bait" with Jacoby aka Porsha or Olivia, or Nadia.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Damn Bill.. I didn't know they had names like that.. I need to get to a bigger city.. Only names I have heard are Cinnamon, Autumn, Vanilla, and Summer
Those names are so Shreveport Louisiana!
At least you enjoyed and appreciated the "bare-knuckled" vernacular!
Actually, Andre Johnson is a $20 dancer. Everytime you send him out there, he brings back $20 a dance. You'd like to pick up another dancer that can bring in $20 a dance. Jacoby looks the part.
But everytime you send him out there, he comes back with $5. You give him some time to "develop" learn a few tricks, work on his technique. 5 years later, he's still bringing in $5/dance.
Next year, you decide to go get another dancer & you hope he brings in $20 a dance... but you don't know. So, now you've got Andre, bringing you $20/dance. This new guy who'll bring in somewhere between $20/dance & $5/dance..... & Jacoby who will bring in $5/dance.
I can understand you getting upset if you haven't figured out that Jacoby won't bring home $20 but you continue to expect him to. I mean look at him....
Like the guys who don't know that Wrassl'n is fake. I mean, c'mon....
Luv_ya_blue
Truth, Love, Faith & Obedience - Christianity 101
How in heavens name is this thread still going on...
They call me Pimp Daddy TK!!! You know waaaay too ,uch about this......
I have cable.
So you're a soft porn Pimp daddy?
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
If there's any unamortized bonus as it relates to Jacoby's contract (and I'm absolutely not convinced that there is) and he were cut, the salary cap implications would depend on the date he was released. If it's before June 1 of this year, then the entire unamortized amount would be applied to the 2012 cap. If it's on or after that date, there would be no additional impact on the 2012 cap (just the one year of regular amortization), and the remaining amount would hit the 2013 cap.
This could also be considered a possible explanation for all those who are so up in arms that Jacoby hasn't already been cut - it could be a salary cap issue (or it could be that there is no unamortized bonus and they are just acting like typical fans).
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Hmm... so is that how F.O.R.O.J. knows Jacoby. Is he Jacoby's house keeper?
If not, then what "house cleaning" are you talking about. All he's done is spout off ridiculous B.S. excuses for a player that has been nothing, but accumulation of failure.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Umm.. how about a rookie? There are rookies that come into this league every season that far exceed jacoby's level of play. This is a very deep draft at the WR position. I have no doubt that we would be able to find a player who can be a better player from day 1 and a player that has the potential to grow into a consistent starter.
You act like it'd be hard to replace a player like Jacoby...teams cut WRs every season who are more consistent. The guy is as replaceable as they come.
Blake
MMQB
A rookie is going to far exceed Jones' level of play or be more consistent? Did you actually verify that, or just make an assumption?
Of the 5 NFL players who returned punts over 40 times in the regular season, only Jacoby Jones and Marc Mariani had zero fumbles. Brandon Tate had 1, rookie Patrick Peterson had 3, and Leon Washington had 2. Jones and Peterson tied with 5 returns over 40 yards, and all had 1 touchdown except Peterson who had 4. Of course, peterson is a DB who was taken #5 overall.
Of those 5 punt returners, 3 were WR's. Bradon Tate had zero receptions, Marc Mariani had 5 receptions for 24 yards and zero TD's, and Jones had 31 receptions for 512 yards and 2 TD's.
Lets take a look at rookie WR's who handled more than 20 punts. Jeremy Kerley had 29 returns, fumbled 3 times. Randall Cobb had 26 and fumbled 2 times. Darius Moore had 25 and fumbled 1 time.
So for you to say that we could draft a rookie WR who would returns punts and will far exceed Jones level of play, while being more consistent just shows me that your thinking is very flawed.
Blake
MMQB
Yeha. Until we can physically look at Jone's contract we wont know. Just have to wait and see what the front office does...
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
He clearly got under your skin which really is enough to clean house with you in yalls debate back and forth not to mention he was just posting facts about JJ, his season(s), Yates and our last playoff game. Its been entertaining to watch you run in circles trying to nip at him
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
It isn't nearly as simple as you are making it out to be. Guaranteed money can come in the form of (1) a signing bonus (guaranteed because it is paid when the player signs - got it?) which gets prorated over the life of the contract, (2) a roster bonus (generally reported as guaranteed money but often isn't - contrast Antoine Winfield's roster bonus paid a few days after he signed his contract and Peyton Manning's where the $28 mil roster bonus was reported as guaranteed and it is not) which is not prorated, or (3) guaranteed salaries. Now pay attention here since this seems so elusive to you. Guaranteed salaries can have different guarantees. Really not tough - Honda and Ford don't have the same guarantees on their vehicles. Some are no matter what no matter where you play no matter whether we have cut you your pay in 2012 and 2013 will be X and Y. Some are guarantees only for injury - we can cut you and not owe X and Y for 2012 and 2013 unless you are injured. Some are almost entirely fake guarantees which are essentially if we keep you you'll make X in 2012 - see Manning. Manning has a five year contract with $54 mil "guaranteed" except the only way it is a five year contract is if they pay $28 mil of that "guaranteed" money this March which they don't have to do.
Dead money isn't prorated like that.
If his guaranteed money was a signing bonus then 2/3rds will go on this year's cap (unless they exercise the June 1st option).
If his guaranteed money was a roster bonus then none will go on this year's cap - it was all on last year.
If his guaranteed money was his first year's salary then none will go on this year's cap - it was all on last year.
If his guaranteed money was his first year's salary and some portion of the second season then the portion will go on this year's cap.
How money gets paid affects how it is accounted for on the cap. ONLY signing bonus money gets prorated.
This is from rotoworld on Antoine Winfield:
They paid him a roster bonus which all went on the 2009 cap and guaranteed his first year salary (which was essentially meaningless for a vet of his seniority since if he was on the roster on day 1 of the season his salary became guaranteed) - but in any event all of his guaranteed money went onto the cap for his first year. Note they also built in a clause about playing time.
Bottom line is there is conflicting information on JJ and we don't really know the cap consequence of cutting him.
The other bottom line is this is all a little overblown. The Texans had about $13 mil in dead money in 2008 for players like Dom Davis, McKinney, Wong, Babin, etc. Prior years were even worse with big hits for Walker, Wade, Payne, Robaire etc.
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Now that we don't have to invest so much towards our defense, hopefully we will draft a few WRs to take his spot.
However, unless we're drafting two WRs from the first & second rounds, I hope they at least keep Jj through camp to make sure we have someone who can replace him.
@infantrycak
Everything I have argued with you was based on information I got from a source (you know the one you asked for me to present where I got my information from).
http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/cap-hit/houston-texans/wide-receiver/
This is where the argument over the $2.4 million dead cap space came from. It's irrelevant how you are throwing all these hypothetical situations to insinuate I was "overlooking" these when in fact what you are saying has NOTHING to do with the original statement. You already admitted that you have no idea about Jacoby's contract, I just presented a scenario that would hold true if in fact the information from my source is accurate. I already said that there is conflicting information about Jacoby's contract and I presented the conflicting sources (something you apparently ignored). So why you decided to carry this discussion out, I have no idea.
No NFL contract is guaranteed but guaranteed money in a contract is guaranteed. There is no such thing as a roster bonus or salary being "guaranteed", because teams can cut a player at any time (under provisions in the CBA). If there is a condition to get money in a contract it is not likely included in the guaranteed figure. If it is guaranteed the player is entitled to it barring any stipulations. A contract can be protected against injury, skill and cap. If you have all 3 then your money is fully guaranteed. No team is foolish enough to give players full protection on the entire contract, so that is why you usually see a portion of the contract guaranteed. The portion that is not included, can be subject to any stipulation. But if it guaranteed, it most likely has all 3. Of course the sources are in conflict, and I have no source that tells us what protection he has, but the $3 million guaranteed has this protection.
BTW I was wrong in saying that if we cut Jacoby the leftover guaranteed money would be prorated over the next 2 seasons. Actually, it is the entire amount would count against this year's cap. Which is the reason teams do not like to give out too much guaranteed money in contracts, and instead opt attach stipulations (if any at all) to the portions that are not guaranteed. Since Jacoby has $3 million guaranteed in his contract, then if we cut him this season whatever portion that did not count against the cap last year would count entirely towards 2012 season cap and not prorated.
Everything I have argued with you was based on information I got from a source (you know the one you asked for me to present where I got my information from).
http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/cap-hit/houston-texans/wide-receiver/
This is where the argument over the $2.4 million dead cap space came from. It's irrelevant how you are throwing all these hypothetical situations to insinuate I was "overlooking" these when in fact what you are saying has NOTHING to do with the original statement. You already admitted that you have no idea about Jacoby's contract, I just presented a scenario that would hold true if in fact the information from my source is accurate. I already said that there is conflicting information about Jacoby's contract and I presented the conflicting sources (something you apparently ignored). So why you decided to carry this discussion out, I have no idea.
No NFL contract is guaranteed but guaranteed money in a contract is guaranteed. There is no such thing as a roster bonus or salary being "guaranteed", because teams can cut a player at any time (under provisions in the CBA). If there is a condition to get money in a contract it is not likely included in the guaranteed figure. If it is guaranteed the player is entitled to it barring any stipulations. A contract can be protected against injury, skill and cap. If you have all 3 then your money is fully guaranteed. No team is foolish enough to give players full protection on the entire contract, so that is why you usually see a portion of the contract guaranteed. The portion that is not included, can be subject to any stipulation. But if it guaranteed, it most likely has all 3. Of course the sources are in conflict, and I have no source that tells us what protection he has, but the $3 million guaranteed has this protection.
BTW I was wrong in saying that if we cut Jacoby the leftover guaranteed money would be prorated over the next 2 seasons. Actually, it is the entire amount would count against this year's cap. Which is the reason teams do not like to give out too much guaranteed money in contracts, and instead opt attach stipulations (if any at all) to the portions that are not guaranteed. Since Jacoby has $3 million guaranteed in his contract, then if we cut him this season whatever portion that did not count against the cap last year would count entirely towards 2012 season cap and not prorated.
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infantrycak is right on this one. We have to know how the contract is structured, & the nature of the guaranteed money.
There is also such a thing as guaranteed for injury, which would pay the player a certain amount in the case of injury. If the player is healthy & cut from the team, the team owes him nothing.
If you are arguing that Jj's cap hit was $600K, there is no way there can be any dead money left on our books if he were cut.
The only way we can have dead money, would be if we gave him a signing bonus of $3M. If we were to do that, his cap hit would have been $1M + his 2011 salary, or $1.6M, leaving $1.4M of prorated bonus. That $1.4M would be dead money if we cut Jj
The proof infantrycak has been asking you for pertains to the structure of Jj's contract. You have not provided it, but you present your $2.4M dead money argument as if you had.
Guaranteed money in the NFL means nothing if it is not a signing bonus.
Have you provided evidence to support this statement yet? I do not believe so, which is the reason people keep telling you you have not provided anything to support the bolded statement.
You seem to have a problem understanding guaranteed money is not truly guaranteed. If Jj is guaranteed $3M in salary in 2012, but the Texans cut him before the date set in the CBA, there is no
I repeat, no dead money applied to the Texans' cap number.
Dead money is only generated if a player is given a signing bonus that is prorated over the life of the contract (I do believe a team can elect to apply the entire signing bonus to that year's cap, but that's a different story).
No signing bonus, no dead money.
So you have to prove there was a signing bonus.
If you maintain Jacoby's salary $600K was his cap hit, that means there was no bonus.
If there was no bonus, there is no way the Texans can be charged with "dead money" for Jacoby Jones in 2012.
Well his cap hit was $600k. That included the signing bonus of $450k, which was prorated at $150k per year. That's where the $600k figure came from ($450k base salary + $150k prorated signing bonus= $600k cap hit).
Jacoby's contract details (minus the extra technical stuff)
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/jacoby-jones/
I am aware that signing bonuses is the only guaranteed money. I am also aware that the only way to protect salary is against injury, skill or cap. It is my understanding that the guaranteed figure includes the signing bonus of $450k and all money protected by all 3 exceptions, which means that the $3 million in Jacoby's contract fully guaranteed (protected against injury, skill, and cap). Otherwise it is not guaranteed if there any stipulations (lack of protection against 1 or more against injury, skill, cap). If you have anything to prove otherwise I would be glad to review it.
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Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
I'm not talking about "punt returns" when I talk about a rookie supplanting Jacoby Jones, LOL.
I'm talking about something called being a "actual WR". We didn't spend a 3rd round pick on Jacoby Jones to top out as just a "punt returner" 6 years into his career.
I am sorry that you got the wrong impression and had to waste all the time looking up punt return stats though.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
LOL, you think this guy got under my skin... Bwahahahaha!
Hey bud, you might want to check who's sending who private messages here like a little drama queen. Just logged on and the queen has been hitting up my P.M. boxThis dude doesn't have me "running in circles". He's the one who's been "running around" putting out Jacoby fires. Gee I wonder why?
P.S.
Does anybody else here find it strange that we now have newbs signing up to defend Jacoby? Hmm.... makes you think huh? Must be a family affair.
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I'm not talking about "punt returns" when I talk about a rookie supplanting Jacoby Jones, LOL.
I'm talking about something called being a "actual WR". We didn't spend a 3rd round pick on Jacoby Jones to top out as just a "punt returner" 6 years into his career.
I am sorry that you got the wrong impression and had to waste all the time looking up punt return stats though.
CB you may be right but can you actually find examples of rookie WR's "supplanting" Jacoby Jones. Mind you he MUST be a 3rd round pick or lower (preferably since 2007). You won't find many. BTW alot of WRs taken in the 3rd round or lower are drafted as PR/KR project that have potential to contribute as receivers someday. They definitely aren't drafted to be franchise guys. It's usually hit or miss, and there's probably more miss than hit.
With $450K prorated over 3 years, there should be $300K of dead money if Jacoby is cut, according to those numbers.... which your link does support.
We can't. There is no link, that we can find that spells out the details of Jacoby's contract. That is our point.
The link you provided does not (unless I'm not looking at it right) tell us "how" the contract is guaranteed. It doesn't really go into the structure much at all.
It does say his average salary is $3.5M.... with a salary of base of $450K in 2011, I find it hard to believe, but have no reason to believe otherwise.
regardless how the money is guaranteed, unless it was a $3M signing bonus, there will be no dead money. Your link actually proves our point.... the signing bonus was not $3M.
He signed a 3 year $10.5 million contract ($10.5 million/3=$3.5 million a year). $10.5 million is not guaranteed. $3 million (of the $10.5 million) is guaranteed. Whatever your definition of guaranteed is apply it there. I am saying Jacoby Jones is guaranteed $3 million of the total contract of $10.5 million. Even if there are any stipulations, there are only 3 possible restrictions on getting the $3 million. They are injury, skill and cap. Otherwise the money is not guaranteed (the remaining $7.5 million is likely incentive and is not guaranteed). If someone gets guaranteed money it will include 1 if not more of those listed protections. The only way we are cleared of the $3 million is if he violates one that he is not protected by. Has he violated one yet? Mind you he is protected by at least one of them. If I had to guess 1, I'm willing to bet that he at least got injury protection.
Let's say it is guaranteed for injury only.
The Texans bring in 5 WRs in the offseason. 4 of those make the team, Jacoby does not.
Does he get any money? Does anything go against the cap?
We do not know what his guarantee is, so we can't say what kind of dead money we will incur.
If that is his only protection I believe not. But you have to consider that we usually have 5 WRs on the the roster. I am willing to bet he can at least come in 5th place. Also keep in mind that Kubiak prefers people that are familiar with the system.
I understand we do not know his protection. But it is less speculative to suggest this than to say we will cut him (as many suggest). Reason suggests the opposite. He would have to get beat out of the 5 available spots or cause us to go over cap (his contract is cap friendly). It just doesn't seem like he will violate either.
And if he gets injured...we're definitely not off the hook. Also, keep in mind you can be protected by more than 1 of these protection. It would not be out off the realm of possibility that he could be protected by more than 1. It's not like we gave him a big time contract. 3 years $10.5 million with $3 million guarantee. It is not a stretch to speculate that he is protected by 2 or even 3 of them (most likely no more than 2 injury/cap).
Understood.
The argument here is about the $2.4M dead money that you kept saying would hit our books if we cut Jacoby.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
While I don't share your enthusiam in calling Jacoby a POS, I do share your enthusiam in "cutting bait" with him.... He's had five years and has not garnered his current contract... C'YA!!
CUT BAIT, NOW!!!!
From my source (and many others) we can determine that Jacoby got a 3 year $10.5 million with $3 million guaranteed. From it we can determine that he received a $450k signing bonus that is prorated over the 3 years. He had a $400k salary last year. Thus he had a $600k cap hit. That leaves $2.4 million left of guaranteed money.
I provided the 3 clauses that a player can utilize to protect their guaranteed money. I provided the reasoning for why he would not violate the clauses he might not be protected by (because with $3 million guaranteed he is clearly protected by AT LEAST one of only 3 possibilities). If he does not violate any of the other 2 clauses that he is not protect from...we are on the hook for $2.4 million of dead cap space (if we cut him).
I provided plenty support. If you chose to ignore it, so be it.