Mario movement rumors (MERGED) Signs with Buffalo $100 million

[thunderkyss]

We can't afford a 21 Million Dollar a year contract for a guy who was hurt and a project as an OLB in the first place.

Can we afford a $6 or $7 Million/year contract? Because that's what it would be, at least closer to it.

I know it doesn't sound right to you, but trust me. It's more likely that we'll sign him to $6 M/yr than a $21M/yr contract..... the one you're talking about does not happen.

Mario is making a little less than $14M this year. If we franchise him at 125% of this years salary, it's only $17M That, we cannot do... I mean we can, we did it with Dunta. But it wasn't worth it then & it won't be worth it with Mario, Cushing, Andre, Foster..... anyone.

 

[burro]

Look guys the best move is to do a sign and trade with a team in the NFC that needs a pass rusher like Carolina, Tampa Bay, Seattle, Detroit, Atlanta, St. Louis etc. We can't afford a 21 Million Dollar a year contract for a guy who was hurt and a project as an OLB in the first place. Let's move on and get a player and late first or early 2nd round & 4th round pick and keep it moving. We need the cap space to resign Arian Foster, Chris Myers & Neil Rackers and possible incoming Free Agents.

Really? How much does a kicker cost? Especially a mediocre one like Rackers...

 

[welsh texan]

I'm a fan... I'd pay him (some) but, it's the system. You can find a guy to replace Chris Myers, if you know where to look & Kubiak knows where to look.

If Chris proved to be a team leader with the heart of a champion, then yeah, do whatever it takes to keep him. But we won't know if Chris is that guy or not, the locker room would, but we wouldn't.

The only thing I ask, in all this Mario talk, is that we don't make it a "Mario or playertobenamed" scenario. We don't know what the cap is going to be & we don't know how "creative" Rick Smith can get with the numbers.

We didn't have the money to sign Joseph & Manning. But we did.

I know this is getting really far off topic I get the feeling that all the stars have aligned in putting together our O-line.

Just have a think about how bad Myers looked his first two years in Steel Blue, could have been due to a number of factors, that high ankle sprain is often the thing that really gets the blame.

But I really do worry, maybe, just maybe, the issue was that the role Myers is asked to play in this system, of constantly passing off his DL assignment to the next man along and getting up and breaking an LB, maybe that is such an unnatural thing for a OC to do that it will take 3 years to unlearn and relearn.

Also, we had coach Gibbs teaching this O-line at the point when we had Myers and everyone else coming in, and learning this system. How much did that help?

When Wade Smith was brought in and plugged straight in, the guy who was already starting was still on the team, you either improve the position or remain at the same level.

If Myers walk and we replace him, we don't get that opportunity. He's a lot like Arian Foster to me, in that here we have a guy who is a perfect fit for the system, a total product of the system because the system fits some fantastic talent traits the guy has, yet would he do as well elsewhere? And would the next guy you bring in do as well here? Not a risk I'm prepared to take.

 

[srrono]

bump__

 

[srrono]

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/pos...-franchise-tag

Perhaps the biggest question that will hover over the Houston Texans after the season ends, no matter how it ends, is whether to extend defensive end-turned-outside linebacker Mario Williams.

With Conner Barwin and Brooks Reed as their outside linebackers since Williams suffered a season-ending torn pectoral muscle on Oct. 9, the Texans have done just fine. They rattled off a seven-game winning streak that just ended and clinched their first AFC South title and playoff berth.

Williams is a dominant force. The Texans’ defense could have been even better with him. But he’s been slowed by a couple of injuries, and a pass-rusher of his caliber will cost a fortune on the free market. Houston extended some players at the start of camp to make their salary cap work, and he wasn’t in the mix.

“I love the Houston Texans; the team’s been great, the organization’s been great since I’ve been here,” Williams said this week. “At the end of the day, it’s business. Whatever decision they make, at this point I’m just trying to help the team focus on winning. ... I couldn’t care less about my contract right now. The big picture right now is just for us to do well and fight through the injuries.”

I’ve frequently been asked if I think he will be re-signed, and my answer has been that I think the Texans will use the franchise tag on him.

I figured, too, that a battle over his position could ensue with regard to the tag, like what the Ravens and Terrell Suggs went through in 2008 and 2009.

The Ravens argued Suggs was a linebacker, as he was listed as one on the Pro Bowl ballot. Suggs' representation argued he played more than half of his snaps as a pass-rushing end.

Suggs filed a grievance on getting the right franchise number and the sides finally agreed on a hybrid figure, which was in between the defensive end and linebacker number.

Asking around about the tag, I learned that rough estimates were just given to the clubs.

SportsNation

What should the Texans do with Mario Williams during the offseason?

Sign him long term
Use the franchise tag on him
Allow him to test the free-agent market

In the new CBA, franchise numbers look to be going down. It’s still regarded as “the average of the five-highest paid players at the position from the previous season,” but those words don’t mean what they used to, and it’s actually the average of the five-highest paid players at the position as a share of the salary cap over the past five seasons.

Skip ahead if you don’t care for legalese, or dive in if you want the actual CBA language on it. Here is how a franchise number is now calculated:

(1) Summing the amounts of the Franchise Tags for players at that position for the five preceding League Years; (2) dividing the resulting amount by the sum of the Salary Caps for the five preceding League Years(using the average of the amounts of the 2009 and 2011 Salary Caps as the Salary Cap amount for the 2010 League Year); and (3) multiplying the resulting percentage by the Salary Cap for the upcoming League Year (e.g., when calculating the Tender for the 2012 League Year, dividing the aggregate sum of the Franchise Tags for players at that position for the 2007-201 1 League Years by the aggregate sum of the Salary Caps for the 2007-2011 League Years and multiplying the result by the amount of the Salary Cap for the 2012 League Year) (the "Cap Percentage Average")


So the owners got the numbers tamped down in the new deal. The players will get smaller percentages of a larger cap, but until there is a real cap boom, the resulting number will be lower than it has been.

The safety franchise tag, for instance, accounted for 8.8 percent of the $120 million salary cap last season, but will now be worth roughly 5.1 percent of the cap.

So what’s the difference between a tagged linebacker and end going to look like under the 2012 cap, expected to be about $125 million?

The defensive end number will be roughly 8.8 percent of the cap, down from 12.9.

The linebacker number will be roughly 7.3 percent, down from 10 percent.

So as an end, Williams would get an $11 million tag, and as a linebacker it would be $8.125 million. If the Texans choose to hold onto Williams with a tag, the sides could argue about the $2.875 million difference.

Is Williams an outside linebacker in the Texans 3-4 system? Yes. Have the Texans maintained it’s not very different from what he did as a defensive end, particularly in the nickel package? They have.

So despite clear CBA language that says the tag is determined by the position “at which the Franchise Player participated in the most plays during the prior League Year,” there could still be a debate over semantics -- is Williams a linebacker if he’s not in a three-point stance, or if he’s lined up where an end lines up is he an end no matter his stance or the team’s scheme?

Williams’ agent, Ben Dogra, didn’t answer an email inquiry about the possible debate.

“If it comes to [a franchise tag], then so be it,” Williams said. “I’m open to whatever, we’ll discuss that. I understand the way things work with salary caps and so forth. Whatever could help the team out, me and my agent will look at every option and go through that.

For tag purposes is he a linebacker or an end?

“I don’t know, I have no idea,” he said. "At the end of the day, obviously I’m still, I am a defensive end. I don’t know how that would go down or whatever. I’m sure either way it will work itself out.

“There are a lot of smart guys up there who can move things around and figure stuff out. I’ll let them handle and my agent that while I support the team anyway I can and get healthy and be ready to play next year.”

 

[Perki-Perk]

Of course you bring Mario back! I have 2 of his jerseys!!! Do you know how mad I was when the Rockets tried to trade Scola for Pau Gasol!? Pau freakin Gasol, man! I'd rather watch a losing team with the heart those boys leave on the court every night that get Pau Gasol..

My Bad, went off on a tangent. So, You bring Mario back. Can you imagine how much that will free up JJ and Connor!?! I also think Reed gets a lot more snaps on different packages. He's definitely earned it!

Oh, and what am I going to do with my #90 Jerseys if he walks?? We need to keep everyone on this team.....except Jacoby....come on buddy...

 

[amazing80]

Mario's cap number was $14 million this season. Did it cripple the cap and keep the Texans from signing Joseph and Manning? And if/when Mario re-signs, it will be less than his 2011 cap number.

You don't want Mario re-signed and think he's unnecessary. OK. But at least get your facts straight if you are going to comment on the cap.

You are picking ONE LINERS and trying to bend them into some fantasy of yours. We paid mario alot this season, and we signed some guys YES, but we have A LOT MORE players coming up who mean more to this team than Mario. Its not about being able to afford him, its being able to afford everyone else afterwards.

Sorry, but Mario has NEVER been a dominator and its time we move on from his injury prone, under achieving over paid self. I love Mario, but the love doesn't translate to wins. We suck vs the run with mario because he runs himself out of plays ALL THE TIME. I am willing to bet Rice goes for much more than he did yesterday with Mario in there....have you ever seen Mario take over a game like Watt? Nope....MAYBE the Broncos game a few seasons ago with Cutler.....

Mario is great against crap LTs or TEs, he sucks ve top LTs and it non existent far too much to be paid roughly 1/10 of our cap.....Time to move on and get what we can for him and use the money to sign a piece this season and have money left for Schaub or Foster next season.

 

[dalemurphy]

Mario's franchise tag next year would be about $17 million. He is guaranteed a 20% raise under the old and the new CBA... This year he made over $14 million in salary.

We can not sign him. It would be the death blow to this team. Here are some of the contracts coming due:

Chris Myers (FA- this year!)
Arian Foster (already been promised a new deal this off-season)

1 Year left:
Duane Brown
Matt Schaub
Glover Quin
James Casey
Connor Barwin
Tim Jamison
Shaun Cody

This isn't a complete list either... Why on earth would the Texans break up this group in order to keep Mario? It would be one of the most foolish and costly decisions I've seen. All the Mario fans should prepare to say "goodbye" to him in March.

 

[gafftop]

Can we afford a $6 or $7 Million/year contract? Because that's what it would be, at least closer to it.

I know it doesn't sound right to you, but trust me. It's more likely that we'll sign him to $6 M/yr than a $21M/yr contract..... the one you're talking about does not happen.

Mario is making a little less than $14M this year. If we franchise him at 125% of this years salary, it's only $17M That, we cannot do... I mean we can, we did it with Dunta. But it wasn't worth it then & it won't be worth it with Mario, Cushing, Andre, Foster..... anyone.

Thunder,
We can afford a $7 million a year contract for Mario as long as we are able to get out of it after one year with no harmful long term cap effects. I still don't understand how that happens. Please explain in more detail. Are we talking say a 3 yr contract 7mill 1st year, 8 mill 2nd, ... with no upfront payment ? I could even go with some incentives as long as we are able to get out after the 1st year for say $8-9 million total.

Maybe I am wrong in thinking Mario will get a five year $90 million+ offer from someone. I obviously don't think we can match that offer unless we can also get out of that one for say a total of $10 mill total with no cap hit later.

If the post above is correct and you could franchise for $8-9 million for one year I could live with that. Mario would still be in a contract year so i think the effort would be there. If healthy he WILL help.

I don't hate the player Mario, in fact he was beginning to come on without a doubt before the injury, but I do hate his cap hit and what it kept the Texans from doing this year and what a cap hit like that for the next 4-5 years would keep the Texans from doing. I did like Mario the asset last year in what he possibly could have gotten for the Texans if he had been traded. That is in the past. What happens now?

 

[gafftop]

You are picking ONE LINERS and trying to bend them into some fantasy of yours. We paid mario alot this season, and we signed some guys YES, but we have A LOT MORE players coming up who mean more to this team than Mario. Its not about being able to afford him, its being able to afford everyone else afterwards.

Sorry, but Mario has NEVER been a dominator and its time we move on from his injury prone, under achieving over paid self. I love Mario, but the love doesn't translate to wins. We suck vs the run with mario because he runs himself out of plays ALL THE TIME. I am willing to bet Rice goes for much more than he did yesterday with Mario in there....have you ever seen Mario take over a game like Watt? Nope....MAYBE the Broncos game a few seasons ago with Cutler.....

Mario is great against crap LTs or TEs, he sucks ve top LTs and it non existent far too much to be paid roughly 1/10 of our cap.....Time to move on and get what we can for him and use the money to sign a piece this season and have money left for Schaub or Foster next season.

I was really trying to understand, mellow, be reasonable, compromise,..... when it comes to the Mario issue with my last post, I was trying to take the 2nd step...

Then I read this post and realized I must be true to myself. I can't be a politician. Sorry, screw compromise lol. I have felt what was written above for a couple of years. Did any of you read the article a couple of days ago when the writer said he was glad the Country Club attitude was gone out of the Texans line or locker room I can't remember exactly how he put it. I wonder what he was talking about. Can't see Watt putting up with any Country Club BS.

 

[thunderkyss]

Thunder,
We can afford a $7 million a year contract for Mario as long as we are able to get out of it after one year with no harmful long term cap effects. I still don't understand how that happens. Please explain in more detail. Are we talking say a 3 yr contract 7mill 1st year, 8 mill 2nd, ... with no upfront payment ? I could even go with some incentives as long as we are able to get out after the 1st year for say $8-9 million total.

Maybe I am wrong in thinking Mario will get a five year $90 million+ offer from someone. I obviously don't think we can match that offer unless we can also get out of that one for say a total of $10 mill total with no cap hit later.

If the post above is correct and you could franchise for $8-9 million for one year I could live with that. Mario would still be in a contract year so i think the effort would be there. If healthy he WILL help.

I don't hate the player Mario, in fact he was beginning to come on without a doubt before the injury, but I do hate his cap hit and what it kept the Texans from doing this year and what a cap hit like that for the next 4-5 years would keep the Texans from doing. I did like Mario the asset last year in what he possibly could have gotten for the Texans if he had been traded. That is in the past. What happens now?

Can't franchise Mario for less than $17m you've also got to make up your mind to keep Mario for three years. Think about it this way, even with his injuries, he's been as productive as everyone on our defense, other than Barwin, without the benefit of all the playmakers we have now & the 2nd ranked pass defense.

 

[welsh texan]

Mario's franchise tag next year would be about $17 million. He is guaranteed a 20% raise under the old and the new CBA... This year he made over $14 million in salary.

We can not sign him. It would be the death blow to this team. Here are some of the contracts coming due:

Chris Myers (FA- this year!)
Arian Foster (already been promised a new deal this off-season)

1 Year left:
Duane Brown
Matt Schaub
Glover Quin
James Casey
Connor Barwin
Tim Jamison
Shaun Cody

This isn't a complete list either... Why on earth would the Texans break up this group in order to keep Mario? It would be one of the most foolish and costly decisions I've seen. All the Mario fans should prepare to say "goodbye" to him in March.

Dale, firstly, you've just regurgatated the point I made in this very thread earlier. Secondly, there is a very limited number of people who truly understand the cap ramifications of Mario's contract situation, those who are are contractually obliged not to post on this forum.

The fact is, say Mario gets a 6 year, $90 million contract off us, people have talked about the possibility of him signing a 'cap friendly' deal for the team, others have claimed that such an idea is a fallacy and no one would be willing to sign for less than their market value purely to 'help out'.

What they ignore, is that you can sign a cap/team friendly deal for the same $$$$ as an unfriendly one, but structure it to help the team out. Would Mario be willing to do this? Of course he would! He's done it before and he'll do it again.

So you take your idea of a $90 mill 6 year contract, you put $40 million in the last 2 years to give Mario the nice headlines, and you pay him, in reality $50 million over 4, with the vast majority of that $50 million guaranteed. That is how we arrive at a cap figure of ~$12million and that is how we can keep Mario on a team friendly deal.

I've looked at some contracts we currently have that I'd consider dead weight, and have detailed those in this thread, which could easily save us ~$10 million next year, which could help us to lock up both Myers and Foster for this year.

As for next years 'problem';

Duane Brown 2012 cap hit is $1.4 million, this one may be a big jump

Matt Schaub 2012 cap hit is $8.4 million, not likely to jump up too much from that point

Glover Quin 2012 = $607k, may need to find an extra mill or so per season?

James Casey 2012 = $611k, not really a necessity to keep, wouldn't cost more than an etra 500k-1m though?

Connor Barwin 2012= $917k, another one where we may need to find a good amount of cap space in order to make it work

Tim Jamison 2012 = $565k not going to break the bank as a depth player

Shaun Cody 2012 = $2.25 million (was $3.5 million this season so we've already saved some!) Again, with Mitchell coming on, and being a position we could try to upgrade, this could well be a position where we save money rather than spend it.

So all in all, I can fully understand how re-signing Mario wouldn't necessarily ruin our chances of signing our FA's the next offseason, especially if the new TV deal increases the cap by a significant figure. It would also be reasonable to consider that any new contract negotiations will take full advantage of the new rules regarding 'benefits' which gives us an extra $20 mill to wiggle around and it's probably fair to assume that pre-existing contracts don't optimize that new rule.

For me, if we can find WR2, NT, ILB, DE, S depth in the draft, then we'll be in a strong position to continue growing without needing to spend big in FA, without being tied to having to resign depth players above their value, and that will stand us in good stead negotiating with these guys.

It isn't inconcievable that the FO has everything all mapped out and have made a decision they are comfortable with well in advance and know exactly what they are/aren't able to do about Mario.

I do find it hard to believe though, that on the basis of having drafted Reed & Watt, they would have gone out and spent a boatload of cash on JoJo and Manning if it completely took away their ability to resign Mario, without knowing how well the rookies were going to play.

And that is why I'm 100% certain that they can (if they chose to) resign Mario within the cap, and 90% certain that they will choose to.

Or maybe you are a better cap guru than anyone Rick Smith has employed.

 

[dalemurphy]

Dale, firstly, you've just regurgatated the point I made in this very thread earlier. Secondly, there is a very limited number of people who truly understand the cap ramifications of Mario's contract situation, those who are are contractually obliged not to post on this forum.

The fact is, say Mario gets a 6 year, $90 million contract off us, people have talked about the possibility of him signing a 'cap friendly' deal for the team, others have claimed that such an idea is a fallacy and no one would be willing to sign for less than their market value purely to 'help out'.

What they ignore, is that you can sign a cap/team friendly deal for the same $$$$ as an unfriendly one, but structure it to help the team out. Would Mario be willing to do this? Of course he would! He's done it before and he'll do it again.

So you take your idea of a $90 mill 6 year contract, you put $40 million in the last 2 years to give Mario the nice headlines, and you pay him, in reality $50 million over 4, with the vast majority of that $50 million guaranteed. That is how we arrive at a cap figure of ~$12million and that is how we can keep Mario on a team friendly deal.

I've looked at some contracts we currently have that I'd consider dead weight, and have detailed those in this thread, which could easily save us ~$10 million next year, which could help us to lock up both Myers and Foster for this year.

As for next years 'problem';

Duane Brown 2012 cap hit is $1.4 million, this one may be a big jump

Matt Schaub 2012 cap hit is $8.4 million, not likely to jump up too much from that point

Glover Quin 2012 = $607k, may need to find an extra mill or so per season?

James Casey 2012 = $611k, not really a necessity to keep, wouldn't cost more than an etra 500k-1m though?

Connor Barwin 2012= $917k, another one where we may need to find a good amount of cap space in order to make it work

Tim Jamison 2012 = $565k not going to break the bank as a depth player

Shaun Cody 2012 = $2.25 million (was $3.5 million this season so we've already saved some!) Again, with Mitchell coming on, and being a position we could try to upgrade, this could well be a position where we save money rather than spend it.

So all in all, I can fully understand how re-signing Mario wouldn't necessarily ruin our chances of signing our FA's the next offseason, especially if the new TV deal increases the cap by a significant figure. It would also be reasonable to consider that any new contract negotiations will take full advantage of the new rules regarding 'benefits' which gives us an extra $20 mill to wiggle around and it's probably fair to assume that pre-existing contracts don't optimize that new rule.

For me, if we can find WR2, NT, ILB, DE, S depth in the draft, then we'll be in a strong position to continue growing without needing to spend big in FA, without being tied to having to resign depth players above their value, and that will stand us in good stead negotiating with these guys.

It isn't inconcievable that the FO has everything all mapped out and have made a decision they are comfortable with well in advance and know exactly what they are/aren't able to do about Mario.

I do find it hard to believe though, that on the basis of having drafted Reed & Watt, they would have gone out and spent a boatload of cash on JoJo and Manning if it completely took away their ability to resign Mario, without knowing how well the rookies were going to play.

And that is why I'm 100% certain that they can (if they chose to) resign Mario within the cap, and 90% certain that they will choose to.

Or maybe you are a better cap guru than anyone Rick Smith has employed.

You are right. You can delay the pain a few years. However, I'm not interested in the business model that leads to a day of reckoning like the Titans had a number of years ago. I'd rather them be fiscally responsible and make sound decisions now. What you are arguing the Texans could sign Mario for, they could also sign Robert Meachem, Matt Roth, and Brent Grimes/or Carlos Rogers... if they choose to spend all that money this year.

How does Mario make this team better? If the issue is depth, that can certainly be handled for less money. Does anyone actually believe that Mario's presence on this team is more valuable than a quality #2 WR... How would Mario have improved this team's season this year? Play with the calculations all you would like, the reality is the Texans have a finite amount of resources and, IMO, he would consume more of those resources than he is worth. We'll see what the Texans think shortly.

 

[feebleminded]

I havent read all if the posts in this thread, but with regard to resigning Mario and the cap implications, I don't think any of us have good handle on what the cap is likely to look like in the next few years.

One of the things that has to be mentioned in this discussion is the new TV deal(s) that the league just cut at the end of the year. According to some reports http://www.engadget.com/2011/12/19/nfl-renews-tv-deals-with-cbs-fox-nbc-for-nine-more-years-mone/, and http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/08/espns-new-monday-night-football-deal-includes-3d-broadcasts/ the TV revenue is set to increase from an average of $3.04 Billion to approx $5 Billion beginning in 2014. Who knows how the increases are actually structured in the front end versus back end, but the bottom line is that the cap is set to make a big jump in the next couple of years.

In the new CBA the players recieve 55% of the media revenue, so without understanding the particulars of how it will come in, the cap per team is set to increase on average by ($1.96B x 55% / 32 teams) $33.687 Million per team.. That is over a 25% increase from where we are, and that is just from the TV deals alone.

The bottom line is that given the increases on the horizon, the Texans more than likely will be able to re-sign the players that they want to keep, particularly in the longer term, by being a little creative in the near term.

 

[thunderkyss]

Does anyone actually believe that Mario's presence on this team is more valuable than a quality #2 WR... .

Stop making this about Mario and/or a #2 WR. Signing Mario has nothing to do with our ability to sign quality WRs. Kevin Walter & Jacoby Jones pulling in $9m or so has more to do with that, we've got 9 CBs on this roster, can't dress but 5 on game day, we've got so many tight ends, we started calling Casey a full back. Garret graham has had a handfull of snaps in the last two years.

We signed David Anderson to our team three times in the last two years.

Mario Williams has nothing to do with our WR problem.

 

[EVOLVIST]

Dale and Welsh, you both make really good points and supply valuable information to the topic.

In your scenario, Welshman, I looked through your posts to see what sort of fat you'd trim from the team, but I can't seem to find that post(s). I've been going through a little bit of the same thing, looking at contracts and players. But I've also kept under consideration: How have the Texans treated their players in the past, and what type of loyalty they give that might affect separating the wheat from the chaff.

Dale...I, too, wonder about Mario's need to even be on the team. I'm not a Mario hater at all. I think he's great! - yet I'm forced to wonder how much of this guy is depth now. If the team really worries about depth, then yes, that's when they hit in the draft in the 1st round and go for somebody like Courtney Upshaw, as a 3-4 OLB.

For sure the Texans should do their due diligence when evaluating NTs next year, after they screwed up and drafted Earl Mitchell over Geno Atkins (who was on nearly every fan's mock in the 4th - then again, I wonder how much Frank Bush had to do with that pick).

 

[Tailgate]

I dont have time to read all the posts. But is a trade even a likely possibility? Meaning, can we hang our hat on at least getting something for him if we are going to lose him? Or is there a real risk of just losing him outright? Do we get compensated if we lose him outright with an extra pick or anything?

I just want to quell my concern we may very well lose him for nothing. Keep him... great! Lose him for nothing.... sucks!

 

[GuerillaBlack]

Mario's franchise tag next year would be about $17 million. He is guaranteed a 20% raise under the old and the new CBA... This year he made over $14 million in salary.

We can not sign him. It would be the death blow to this team. Here are some of the contracts coming due:

Chris Myers (FA- this year!)
Arian Foster (already been promised a new deal this off-season)

1 Year left:
Duane Brown
Matt Schaub
Glover Quin
James Casey
Connor Barwin
Tim Jamison
Shaun Cody

This isn't a complete list either... Why on earth would the Texans break up this group in order to keep Mario? It would be one of the most foolish and costly decisions I've seen. All the Mario fans should prepare to say "goodbye" to him in March.

The salary cap will increase in 2013, so many of these guys can be resigned. Mario is a special talent and only 26 years old. We need to keep him in order to have an elite pass rush. It's already there now, but would be legendary with Mario back.

 

[Brandon420tx]

I can't believe people want to get rid of Mario and rely on 2 2nd round picks with only 1 year of experiance, and 1 first round rookie with no experiance. Which is what will happen if Mario walks and we go forward with only Barwin, Reed, 1st Round pick. Not to mention taking the pass rusher in the first round means we don't select the WR "I" want, and dammit, "I" am a selfish bastard and want my WR

 

[badboy]

You sign Foster First, Then Mario, Then Myers.

Those 3 are priority this offseason

Foster cannot go anywhere & agrees to what team gives him or sits out. Sign him when you feel it is best for team. Mario? We have back up plans and players. Myers? SHould be our focal point as he calls the line plays and we have zilch behind him. I think Smith might be able to work in but if Myers goes elsewhere and I think he won't, our offense could really suffer.

 

[Brandon420tx]

Our backup plans are 2 guys with one year of experience both at the position and in the league. Connor Barwin's first season doesn't count because he didn't play. You let mario go and you need another OLB from somewhere. If you want a good one the only one I can see in FA is .... manny lawson, super, or your taking one early in the draft. At which point you have 3 players with a total of 2 years worth of play experience in the NFL.

 

[welsh texan]

Fail

 

[badboy]

No one seems to be talking about Myers' contract situation, but, for me, he is number 1 priority. He's the lynchpin of our O-line and that makes him key to Foster's success.

Next up is Foster, we've witnessed our redzone troubles with him injured at the start of this season despite Ben Tate filling in well.

Williams, I wouldn't be upset if they made him the highest paid player on the team, I would be upset if that was a number that stopped us from sorting out other areas in FA.

The good thing is that even if we sign MW to somewhere around $12m, we have $5m in cap space compared to this season, we can lose Jason Allen for ~$1.5m, Matt Leinart for ~$3m & Jacoby for ~$3.5m. Hell Jake Delhomme is down to earn $9m between this year and next!! Plenty of wiggle room against the cap depending which pieces you want to rid yourself of. We could resign all 3 and still come up with a lower cap hit than this season if we want to.

My worry is the next year, when Barwin, Brown, Schaub, Quin, Casey & Cody all hit free agency and thats just to mention our starters. What the hell are they going to do then? I'd make each of those positions draft needs right now, groom the talent to replace them because we haven't got a hope in hell of keeping them all.

Simply back load the deals as 2013 begins the new television contract with an estimated increase of $3Billion to NFL.

 

[welsh texan]

Dale and Welsh, you both make really good points and supply valuable information to the topic.

In your scenario, Welshman, I looked through your posts to see what sort of fat you'd trim from the team, but I can't seem to find that post(s). I've been going through a little bit of the same thing, looking at contracts and players. But I've also kept under consideration: How have the Texans treated their players in the past, and what type of loyalty they give that might affect separating the wheat from the chaff.

I've looked back and I can't find it either, although I could swear I remember typing one up :mariopalm:

Anyway, Jacoby for a start only earned $600k of his $10.5 million 3 year deal this first year, so he stands to earn $5 mill average the next 2 years, Matt Leinart is down for $3 million next year, Demps is $700k, Dreesen $1.25m (decent player but its time to see what Grahams got rather than pay), McMannis ~$500k per year, Jason Allen $1.25m, Barber $600k, Derrick Ward is $1.75m. That all comes to around $13 million and I wouldn't really expect too much decline in our play to result from all of those moves.

Another one I'd take a look at is a guy who came up big for us yesterday, is a great leader on D, but is possibly being overpaid for what he is right now.

DeMeco Ryans is down to earn $7million next year, rising to around $8million in the following 3 years. I wonder if DeMeco would be willing to renegotiate to help out the team and add a couple of extra years to his contract?

Another one to take a look at is OD's contract, its front loaded at $6.5m this year and next, but then drops to $4.5m its final 2 years, that works out great for the team because it frees up $2m just when we've got other guys who'll need paying. This is where Rick Smith and his team have obviously planned ahead and 'the day of reckoning' isn't necessarily upon us.

That said, none of it matters anyway as the world will end on 21st December this year as predicted by the Myans so why are we even bothering to discuss this.

 

[welsh texan]

Simply back load the deals as 2013 begins the new television contract with an estimated increase of $3Billion to NFL.

Yep, I totally agree, when I asked that question I decided to go and do some research, if you look at some of my later posts things don't look anywhere near as difficult as it first appears anyway.

 

[srrono]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000...-values-will-be-down-across-the-board-in-2012

 

[badboy]

Cap expands next year doesn't it? So there's some extra wiggle room right there to start.

My understanding is cap does NOT increase next season, apprx $120m + able to "borrow" $1.5 m from a future year. This past season we did not use the $3m we could borrow from future year.

 

[welsh texan]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000...-values-will-be-down-across-the-board-in-2012

I get really frustrated at people constantly posting links to this and similar stories which seem to suggest that Mario's tag figure will be lower due to the new CBA. It is completely irrelevant as his earnings last year were about the tag value at either DE OR OLB, and so his figure will be 120% of last years earnings at between $16-$17 million.

 

[thunderkyss]

I dont have time to read all the posts. But is a trade even a likely possibility? Meaning, can we hang our hat on at least getting something for him if we are going to lose him? Or is there a real risk of just losing him outright? Do we get compensated if we lose him outright with an extra pick or anything?

I just want to quell my concern we may very well lose him for nothing. Keep him... great! Lose him for nothing.... sucks!

The only reasonable way we'll be able to trade Mario is by signing him to a long term deal, let him increase his stock over the next three years, then take what we can get at that time.

 

[badboy]

Okay, then it's going to take a lot wiser head than mine to come up with a way to keep Mario Williams, reward Arian Foster and keep Chris Myers.

In addition, you have to get a legit #2 WR. You have to. There's no other way around it, when even most of the suckiest teams have a better WR corps than the Texans. We are one offensive weapon away from making a run at the whole thing, in my opinion.

Because with all that money going to Williams, Foster and Myers, it doesn't look probable that we'll make a big splash in free agency, a la Robert Meachem, Mario Manningham, et al...

Otherwise, we are banking on the draft alone to get a quality WR. The best will be gone by the time we pick....unless we sell the farm by moving up and getting Blackmon. He's the only sure fire future Andre Johnson.

So, can someone tell me how the Texans are going to hit all these beats?

Kendall Wright, Dwight Jones, Mohammed Sanu and perhaps Jordan WHite will be available in first (White in 3rd) and should be better than Jacoby.

 

[dalemurphy]

Stop making this about Mario and/or a #2 WR. Signing Mario has nothing to do with our ability to sign quality WRs. Kevin Walter & Jacoby Jones pulling in $9m or so has more to do with that, we've got 9 CBs on this roster, can't dress but 5 on game day, we've got so many tight ends, we started calling Casey a full back. Garret graham has had a handfull of snaps in the last two years.

We signed David Anderson to our team three times in the last two years.

Mario Williams has nothing to do with our WR problem.

This argument makes no sense! You do realize the salary cap isn't divided by position? The Walter and Jones deal are both done. In order to get out of the Walter deal, the Texans would have to cut him and take a significant cap hit next season. Despite the fact that Mario is a defensive player, his salary does impact the entire team. What a strange argument to make to dispute that.

 

[PHAROAH]

Dale, firstly, you've just regurgatated the point I made in this very thread earlier. Secondly, there is a very limited number of people who truly understand the cap ramifications of Mario's contract situation, those who are are contractually obliged not to post on this forum.

The fact is, say Mario gets a 6 year, $90 million contract off us, people have talked about the possibility of him signing a 'cap friendly' deal for the team, others have claimed that such an idea is a fallacy and no one would be willing to sign for less than their market value purely to 'help out'.

What they ignore, is that you can sign a cap/team friendly deal for the same $$$$ as an unfriendly one, but structure it to help the team out. Would Mario be willing to do this? Of course he would! He's done it before and he'll do it again.

So you take your idea of a $90 mill 6 year contract, you put $40 million in the last 2 years to give Mario the nice headlines, and you pay him, in reality $50 million over 4, with the vast majority of that $50 million guaranteed. That is how we arrive at a cap figure of ~$12million and that is how we can keep Mario on a team friendly deal.

I've looked at some contracts we currently have that I'd consider dead weight, and have detailed those in this thread, which could easily save us ~$10 million next year, which could help us to lock up both Myers and Foster for this year.

As for next years 'problem';

Duane Brown 2012 cap hit is $1.4 million, this one may be a big jump

Matt Schaub 2012 cap hit is $8.4 million, not likely to jump up too much from that point

Glover Quin 2012 = $607k, may need to find an extra mill or so per season?

James Casey 2012 = $611k, not really a necessity to keep, wouldn't cost more than an etra 500k-1m though?

Connor Barwin 2012= $917k, another one where we may need to find a good amount of cap space in order to make it work

Tim Jamison 2012 = $565k not going to break the bank as a depth player

Shaun Cody 2012 = $2.25 million (was $3.5 million this season so we've already saved some!) Again, with Mitchell coming on, and being a position we could try to upgrade, this could well be a position where we save money rather than spend it.

So all in all, I can fully understand how re-signing Mario wouldn't necessarily ruin our chances of signing our FA's the next offseason, especially if the new TV deal increases the cap by a significant figure. It would also be reasonable to consider that any new contract negotiations will take full advantage of the new rules regarding 'benefits' which gives us an extra $20 mill to wiggle around and it's probably fair to assume that pre-existing contracts don't optimize that new rule.

For me, if we can find WR2, NT, ILB, DE, S depth in the draft, then we'll be in a strong position to continue growing without needing to spend big in FA, without being tied to having to resign depth players above their value, and that will stand us in good stead negotiating with these guys.

It isn't inconcievable that the FO has everything all mapped out and have made a decision they are comfortable with well in advance and know exactly what they are/aren't able to do about Mario.

I do find it hard to believe though, that on the basis of having drafted Reed & Watt, they would have gone out and spent a boatload of cash on JoJo and Manning if it completely took away their ability to resign Mario, without knowing how well the rookies were going to play.

And that is why I'm 100% certain that they can (if they chose to) resign Mario within the cap, and 90% certain that they will choose to.

Or maybe you are a better cap guru than anyone Rick Smith has employed.

What really makes you believe that he will sign a cap friendly deal when this could potentially be his last big contract this is a business and this is the NFL I don't see Mario taking less money for the sake of helping the team. That mindset doesn't makes since for him to do that when NFL contracts are not fully paid out like NBA contracts and he is just coming off a major injury so we need proceed with caution on this matter, I just don't see where the Texans will bring him back it makes no since with all the other contracts coming into play. I think a sign and trade is the best situation for the texans.

 

[Brandon420tx]

It can be a big contract and still be cap friendly, he's already taking the largest chunk of the salary but with a contract in the final year of a #1 pick rookie contract, which were HUGE money deals in the old CBA. Most big contracts are back loaded, and while He'll still get a significant amount of money next year and the year after, they probably won't match his 14 million he got this year. His years after that though will probably match and pass it.

If he signs a new contract with us I see him making anywhere between 9-11 million next season and 11-13 million the season after that. By then the Salary cap will explode with the new TV contracts. Yes eventually there will be a season where he will cost us like 18million but that would a few seasons from now.

 

[thunderkyss]

This argument makes no sense! You do realize the salary cap isn't divided by position? The Walter and Jones deal are both done. In order to get out of the Walter deal, the Texans would have to cut him and take a significant cap hit next season. Despite the fact that Mario is a defensive player, his salary does impact the entire team. What a strange argument to make to dispute that.

Doesn't matter when the mistakes were made, they were made. Signing Walters to a 2WR deal was a boo-boo & a reason we haven't brought in better WRs.

If I remember right, this should have been KDub's 3rd year under that contract & the cap hit should be minimal.

JJ didn't sign that big of a deal... we should be able to cut him as well.

 

[amazing80]

Doesn't matter when the mistakes were made, they were made. Signing Walters to a 2WR deal was a boo-boo & a reason we haven't brought in better WRs.

If I remember right, this should have been KDub's 3rd year under that contract & the cap hit should be minimal.

JJ didn't sign that big of a deal... we should be able to cut him as well.

Giving a guy who has a long injury history, who has never dominated the games we needed him to and a guy who helped make us one of the worst run defenses by over pursuing, should be paid 1/10 the salary cap? The guy is over rated on this board my god

 

[thunderkyss]

Giving a guy who has a long injury history, who has never dominated the games we needed him to and a guy who helped make us one of the worst run defenses by over pursuing, should be paid 1/10 the salary cap? The guy is over rated on this board my god

The man did everything Connor Barwin did through injuries & with no other player on the roster getting 5+ sacks.

We got Weaver to give Mario help. We got Okoye to get Mario help. We got Antonio to get Mario help & none of those guys consistently put pressure on the QB to provide the help Mario needed.

This year, Mario started 5 sacks in 5 games, Antoino 4 sacks in that same time? Jj Watt, similar...

Mario helped those guys out, those guys helped Mario out.

 

[Brandon420tx]

Our defense in the playoffs was better than the defense we had when mario was in here. That much is clear. However, the Defense in the regular season before and after Mario went down showed a huge transition period to get to what it was when we reached the playoffs. In fact, the biggest reason I think our playoff defense was so elite had more to do with Wade Phillips than it did with Barwin or Reed coming into their own.

This defense is at its best when Mario Williams is playing outside linebacker or Wade Phillips is in Playoff mode.

Mario with this defense at the beginning of the season: We had an incomplete playbook, not all of our packages in place, and people still uncomfortable with their positions. Mario goes down, and the next few games our defense dropped in production. Then finally everything starts to click, the packages and plays are added and we become elite level, and people think Mario Williams is not needed in the defense, and this discussion pops up.

Imagine how bad we struggle our first couple of games without mario's unmatched athletic ability that compensated for our weaknesses? Yeah sorry, I'm sticking on this side of the Mario fence.

 

[amazing80]

The man did everything Connor Barwin did through injuries & with no other player on the roster getting 5+ sacks.

We got Weaver to give Mario help. We got Okoye to get Mario help. We got Antonio to get Mario help & none of those guys consistently put pressure on the QB to provide the help Mario needed.

This year, Mario started 5 sacks in 5 games, Antoino 4 sacks in that same time? Jj Watt, similar...

Mario helped those guys out, those guys helped Mario out.

Not 1/10 of the cap worthy, never gonna be

 

[infantrycak]

I am sorry but saying Mario is poor in run protection is laughable. I mean seriously laughable as in have you even watched the games.

 

[amazing80]

I am sorry but saying Mario is poor in run protection is laughable. I mean seriously laughable as in have you even watched the games.

:mariopalm: Ignorance is bliss. The guy has been terrible vs the run. Yup his 46 tackles a year average is AWESOME production definitely worth 16 million a year

 

[badboy]

Our backup plans are 2 guys with one year of experience both at the position and in the league. Connor Barwin's first season doesn't count because he didn't play. You let mario go and you need another OLB from somewhere. If you want a good one the only one I can see in FA is .... manny lawson, super, or your taking one early in the draft. At which point you have 3 players with a total of 2 years worth of play experience in the NFL.

Barwin 11.5 sacks, Reed 6. if you think Mario will be better with another season under Phillips would you not have to say same about these two? If you trade Mario you would have picks to draft depth say perhaps a Vinny Curry. You would also have $17m extra cap space. IF your starting OLB got you 17.5 sacks in their first year in system, why would you want an FA OLB?

 

[infantrycak]

:mariopalm: Ignorance is bliss. The guy has been terrible vs the run. Yup his 46 tackles a year average is AWESOME production definitely worth 16 million a year

Keep raising to a losing hand. You can watch teams audible to run away from Mario. By non-couch potato actual NFL OC's he is regarded as one of the better run-stoppers around. Again this position is laughable. He is a good but non-elite pass rusher who is also the rare combination of being an elite to good run stopper. Sorry reality eludes you.

Oh and go back to rudimentary math because over complete seasons he averages 56 tackles per season as opposed to lets say Smith who had 25 tackles this year ON THE #4 RUSHING D. Barwin had 47 tackles.

 

[Brandon420tx]

For De Eh Pa THa. Depth. Let Mario walk, we are completely dependent on Reed and Barwin, either of them get hurt we're screwed. We let Mario walk I don't want a rookie to be the 3rd OLB, but those would be our choices: a rookie OLB, or a FA. If we go free agent there are only about 2-3 34 OLBs worth taking to be just consistent depth behind Reed and Barwin. I'm just not a huge fan of overloading positions with young raw players (See Houston Texans Defense Backs circa 2011 season).

For as many reason as you have for not wanting mario back, I have as many reason for wanting him to stay.

Unlike last year, There are very few free agents I want to bring in. Most of the ones I do want play WR. I'd rather retain our core players, Myers, Brisiel, Foster, and yes, Mario Williams. I really don't see much upgrade out their in Free Agency that won't be re-signed by their team or tagged.

 

[welsh texan]

What really makes you believe that he will sign a cap friendly deal when this could potentially be his last big contract this is a business and this is the NFL I don't see Mario taking less money for the sake of helping the team. That mindset doesn't makes since for him to do that when NFL contracts are not fully paid out like NBA contracts and he is just coming off a major injury so we need proceed with caution on this matter, I just don't see where the Texans will bring him back it makes no since with all the other contracts coming into play. I think a sign and trade is the best situation for the texans.

Oh dear. Did you bother to read my post before attacking it?

Cap friendly deal as in, he gets paid the same amount but its structured in a way that helps the team, not he gets less money.

 

[ThaJokaa]

1. Sign & Trade Mario for draft picks
2. Use those draft picks to trade for a higher position in the draft.
3. Draft Justin Blackmon from OSU
4. ???
5. Elite WR corps

 

[Dutchrudder]

1. Sign & Trade Mario for draft picks
2. Use those draft picks to trade for a higher position in the draft.
3. Draft Justin Blackmon from OSU
4. ???
5. Elite WR corps

Blackmon's no AJ Green. He's good, but there are plenty of other good WRs in this draft. He's not the guy you pull a Julio Jones to get.

 

[amazing80]

Keep raising to a losing hand. You can watch teams audible to run away from Mario. By non-couch potato actual NFL OC's he is regarded as one of the better run-stoppers around. Again this position is laughable. He is a good but non-elite pass rusher who is also the rare combination of being an elite to good run stopper. Sorry reality eludes you.

Oh and go back to rudimentary math because over complete seasons he averages 56 tackles per season as opposed to lets say Smith who had 25 tackles this year ON THE #4 RUSHING D. Barwin had 47 tackles.

I never said complete seasons, so your immature attempt to weaken my position fails. Last season was FAR below his average but he played 13 of 16 games, it was fair to include that season.....

and EVEN if it was 56 tackles, it does not warrant 16 million per season.

AND just because YOU think they audible to run away from him, doesn't make it fact, just because they guy has all the talent in the world to be elite, that doesn't actually make him elite....he needed to prove it on the field and since 06, he has YET TO PROVE THAT.....You're blind love for him is making you look foolish

 

[Brandon420tx]

I still don't see where your getting that he will take 16-17 million in cap space next year.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/mario-williams/
That's his rookie contract, it had huge escalators that caused his salary to jump this season, otherwise he averaged about a 4 million cap hit.

Lets look at other big time Defensive players who have recently gotten contracts
Example Darelle Revis http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-jets/darrelle-revis/ His is pretty interesting, his contract is front loaded to do major payouts at the beginning.

Julius Peppers http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/chicago-bears/julius-peppers/
That's actually a pretty scary contract, but they unloaded 1/3 of it the first season, He's also hit certain other incentives and bonuses that have raised his cap hit.

Charles Johnson http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/carolina-panthers/charles-johnson/
I felt he got a much bigger contract than he should have. This is also the most traditional contract yet, although it is noted that in 2015 they can cut him and almost save money.

My point is contracts are worked in many different ways. I was probably wrong when I said earlier that he would probably only have a 9 million cap hit next year, it will likely be close to 11Million, unless they pull a circus act on the contract to make it fit, still 11 million is less then the 14-15 million he got this year. So the arguement that he's going to cost more against the cap is still likely wrong unless he get a Julius peppers heavy frontload contract. Which I'm pretty sure he only got because the bears were so heavily under the cap that season.

 

[welsh texan]

I still don't see where your getting that he will take 16-17 million in cap space next year.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/mario-williams/
That's his rookie contract, it had huge escalators that caused his salary to jump this season, otherwise he averaged about a 4 million cap hit.

Lets look at other big time Defensive players who have recently gotten contracts
Example Darelle Revis http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-jets/darrelle-revis/ His is pretty interesting, his contract is front loaded to do major payouts at the beginning.

Julius Peppers http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/chicago-bears/julius-peppers/
That's actually a pretty scary contract, but they unloaded 1/3 of it the first season, He's also hit certain other incentives and bonuses that have raised his cap hit.

Charles Johnson http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/carolina-panthers/charles-johnson/
I felt he got a much bigger contract than he should have. This is also the most traditional contract yet, although it is noted that in 2015 they can cut him and almost save money.

My point is contracts are worked in many different ways. I was probably wrong when I said earlier that he would probably only have a 9 million cap hit next year, it will likely be close to 11Million, unless they pull a circus act on the contract to make it fit, still 11 million is less then the 14-15 million he got this year. So the arguement that he's going to cost more against the cap is still likely wrong unless he get a Julius peppers heavy frontload contract. Which I'm pretty sure he only got because the bears were so heavily under the cap that season.

His cap hit would be 16-17m next season IF franchised.

 

[badboy]

For De Eh Pa THa. Depth. Let Mario walk, we are completely dependent on Reed and Barwin, either of them get hurt we're screwed. We let Mario walk I don't want a rookie to be the 3rd OLB, but those would be our choices: a rookie OLB, or a FA. If we go free agent there are only about 2-3 34 OLBs worth taking to be just consistent depth behind Reed and Barwin. I'm just not a huge fan of overloading positions with young raw players (See Houston Texans Defense Backs circa 2011 season).

For as many reason as you have for not wanting mario back, I have as many reason for wanting him to stay.

Unlike last year, There are very few free agents I want to bring in. Most of the ones I do want play WR. I'd rather retain our core players, Myers, Brisiel, Foster, and yes, Mario Williams. I really don't see much upgrade out their in Free Agency that won't be re-signed by their team or tagged.

The 2nd round rookie playing OLB turned out to be pretty good and he starts. I could live with a rookie draft pick as a backup.