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Rick Smith Open to Trading Up...

The1ApplePie said:
Todd "I Ruined Jevon Snead's Career" McShay basically said it was a lock that the Texans were trading with the Cardinals to get Patrick Peterson.

The way he stated it made it sound like a done deal.

Kind of like Jevon Snead as a first round pick
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I just can't see it. Not at this point where there are so many teams in play for Peterson. I think Cards are looking for more and are leaking this. I've seen 2 articles where Peterson said he'd love Dallas to trade for him. Then you have the 49ers at 7 wanting him too.
 
HoustonFrog said:
I just can't see it. Not at this point where there are so many teams in play for Peterson. I think Cards are looking for more and are leaking this. I've seen 2 articles where Peterson said he'd love Dallas to trade for him. Then you have the 49ers at 7 wanting him too.
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I don't see it either, I'm convinced they'll persue free agents. The rookie CB experiment was a miserable failure and they are very well aware of that.
 
HoustonFrog said:
They really haven't drafted well when you look how poorly they have done in the 2nd and 3rd rounds...where you need to hit.
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I totally disagree with that:

They've only had two 2nd rounders due to the Schaub trade: Barwin, Tate. I love Barwin and 2011 will be the season to find out if that is justified. Clearly, it's too early to say on Tate.

3rd: Jacoby Jones, Caldwell, and Earl Mitchell all have been solid to good picks, IMO. Slaton was an excellent pick in the 3rd round. Unfortunately, he had an injury and they mishandled it/him.
 
dalemurphy said:
I totally disagree with that:

They've only had two 2nd rounders due to the Schaub trade: Barwin, Tate. I love Barwin and 2011 will be the season to find out if that is justified. Clearly, it's too early to say on Tate.

3rd: Jacoby Jones, Caldwell, and Earl Mitchell all have been solid to good picks, IMO. Slaton was an excellent pick in the 3rd round. Unfortunately, he had an injury and they mishandled it/him.
Click to expand...

That is all speculation. LZ was just discussing this on the air this morning with John Harris. All agreed that they have failed badly. 2nd and 3rd rounders are supposed to be big time contributors. Barwin and Tate have been non-factors. Injuries and when they played(Barwin). Just because you like Barwin doesn't mean he is a hit. Jacoby Jones hasn't been a top #2 and has had issues with ball control. Caldwell and Earl Mitchell or "OK." That isn't good. Slaton just was a one year wonder. He bulked up on his own and got slower. He is about to be cut. How is that good?
 
I think Barwin was a good pick, and will be a good player eventually. It's too early to tell on Mitchell.

But, only people who will tell you that Slaton and Jacoby Jones were good picks will tell you that Rick Smith has done a good job drafting. Those people don't know what they're talking about.

I don't think he's done a good or a bad job. I think he's been mediocre. And, the team's record reflects that.
 
HoustonFrog said:
That is all speculation. LZ was just discussing this on the air this morning with John Harris. All agreed that they have failed badly. 2nd and 3rd rounders are supposed to be big time contributors. Barwin and Tate have been non-factors. Injuries and when they played(Barwin). Just because you like Barwin doesn't mean he is a hit. Jacoby Jones hasn't been a top #2 and has had issues with ball control. Caldwell and Earl Mitchell or "OK." That isn't good. Slaton just was a one year wonder. He bulked up on his own and got slower. He is about to be cut. How is that good?
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There is a big difference between assessing whether the pick was a good one versus whether the pick has worked out for the team.

Charles Spencer was a good pick. He didn't work out because of injury. The same can be said for Slaton. The reason he is going to be cut is because his spine has been mangled. There is no way to avoid that on draft day. Any rookie that played the way he did = excellent 3rd round pick. I challenge you to find 10 3rd picks from the 07/09 seasons that are better contributors to their teams than Jacoby and Caldwell are for the Texans. If you can't, that would put those picks in the top 1/3 of all 3rd rounders... Doesn't that equate to good?
 
Here is the 2007 3rd round. Do you still argue that Jacoby Jones was a poor 3rd round pick? (not if you are intellectually honest)... Come on, admit your error guys.

65 Oakland Raiders Quentin Moses DE Georgia
66 New Orleans Saints Usama Young CB Kent State
67 Dallas Cowboys James Marten OT Boston College
68 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Quincy Black LB New Mexico
69 Arizona Cardinals Buster Davis LB Florida State
70 Denver Broncos Ryan Harris OT Notre Dame
71 Miami Dolphins Lorenzo Booker RB Florida State
72 Minnesota Vikings Marcus McCauley CB Fresno State
73 Houston Texans Jacoby Jones WR Lane
74 Baltimore Ravens Yamon Figurs WR Kansas State
75 Atlanta Falcons Laurent Robinson WR Illinois State
76 San Francisco 49ers Jason Hill WR Washington State
77 Pittsburgh Steelers Matt Spaeth TE Minnesota
78 Green Bay Packers James Jones WR San Jose State
79 Jacksonville Jaguars Mike Walker WR Central Florida
80 Tennessee Titans Paul Williams WR Fresno State
81 New York Giants Jay Alford NT Penn State
82 Kansas City Chiefs Tank Tyler DT North Carolina State
83 Carolina Panthers Charles Johnson DE Georgia
84 St. Louis Rams Jonathan Wade CB Tennessee
85 Seattle Seahawks Brandon Mebane DT California
86 Baltimore Ravens Marshal Yanda T Iowa
87 Philadelphia Eagles Stewart Bradley LB Nebraska
88 New Orleans Saints Andy Alleman G Akron
89 Green Bay Packers Aaron Rouse SAF Virginia Tech
90 Philadelphia Eagles Tony Hunt RB Penn State
91 Oakland Raiders Mario Henderson T Florida State
92 Buffalo Bills Trent Edwards QB Stanford
93 Chicago Bears Garrett Wolfe RB Northern Illinois
94 Chicago Bears Michael Okwo LB Stanford
95 Indianapolis Colts Dante Hughes CB California
96 San Diego Chargers Anthony Waters LB Clemson
97 San Francisco 49ers Ray McDonald DE Florida
98 Indianapolis Colts Quinn Pitcock DT Ohio State
99 Oakland Raiders Johnnie Lee Higgins WR Texas-El Paso
 
Here's the 2009 3rd round. Still think Caldwell was a bad pick?


65 New York Jets Shonn Greene RB Iowa
66 St. Louis Rams Bradley Fletcher DB Iowa
67 Kansas City Chiefs Alex Magee DT Purdue
68 Chicago Bears Jarron Gilbert DT San Jose State
69 Dallas Cowboys Jason Williams LB Western Illinois
70 Cincinnati Bengals Michael Johnson DE Georgia Tech
71 Oakland Raiders Matt Shaughnessy DE Wisconsin
72 Jacksonville Jaguars Terrance Knighton DT Temple
73 Jacksonville Jaguars Derek Cox DB William & Mary
74 San Francisco 49ers Glen Coffee RB Alabama
75 Dallas Cowboys Robert Brewster T Ball State
76 Detroit Lions DeAndre Levy LB Wisconsin
77 Houston Texans Antoine Caldwell C Alabama
78 San Diego Chargers Louis Vasquez G Texas Tech
79 Pittsburgh Steelers Kraig Urbik T Wisconsin
80 Washington Redskins Kevin Barnes DB Maryland
81 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Roy Miller DT Texas
82 Detroit Lions Derrick Williams WR Penn State
83 New England Patriots Brandon Tate WR North Carolina
84 Pittsburgh Steelers Mike Wallace WR Mississippi
85 New York Giants Ramses Barden WR Cal Poly-S.L.O.
86 Minnesota Vikings Asher Allen DB Georgia
87 Miami Dolphins Patrick Turner WR USC
88 Baltimore Ravens Lardarius Webb DB Nicholls State
89 Tennessee Titans Jared Cook TE South Carolina
90 Atlanta Falcons Chris Owens DB San Jose State
91 Seattle Seahawks Deon Butler WR Penn State
92 Indianapolis Colts Jerraud Powers DB Auburn
93 Carolina Panthers Corvey Irvin DT Georgia
94 Tennessee Titans Ryan Mouton DB Hawaii
95 Arizona Cardinals Rashad Johnson DB Alabama
96 Pittsburgh Steelers Keenan Lewis DB Oregon State
97 New England Patriots Tyrone McKenzie OLB South Florida
98 Cincinnati Bengals Chase Coffman TE Missouri
99 Chicago Bears Juaquin Iglesias WR Oklahoma
100 New York Giants Travis Beckum TE Wisconsin
 
dalemurphy said:
I challenge you to find 10 3rd picks from the 07/09 seasons that are better contributors to their teams than Jacoby and Caldwell are for the Texans.
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Wasn't all that hard.

2007:
James Jones
Mike Sims Walker
Stewart Bradley

2008:
Kevin Smith
Earl Bennett
Jamaal Charles
Jermichael Finley
Mario Manningham

2009:
Shonn Greene
Brandon Tate
Mike Wallace
Asher Allen
Ladarius Webb


*edit: Do you mean 10 from each year? In that case, nevermind.
 
DonnyMost said:
Wasn't all that hard.

2007:
James Jones
Mike Sims Walker
Stewart Bradley

2008:
Kevin Smith
Earl Bennett
Jamaal Charles
Jermichael Finley
Mario Manningham

2009:
Shonn Greene
Brandon Tate
Mike Wallace
Asher Allen
Ladarius Webb
Click to expand...

07/09- meant from each of those (2007, 2009), not 07-09

2007- That's only 3 of the 31 other picks. That still puts Jacoby Jones in the top 12% of the 3rd round class that year. Seems like a good pick to me.

2009- You found 5 that puts Caldwell well inside the top 25% of the 3rd rounders that year.
 
dalemurphy said:
2007- That's only 3 of the 31 other picks. That still puts Jacoby Jones in the top 12% of the 3rd round class that year. Seems like a good pick to me.

2009- You found 5 that puts Caldwell well inside the top 25% of the 3rd rounders that year.
Click to expand...

The phrasing of your question was kind of awkward.

I understand what you were going for now.

*edit: It's a little disingenuous of you to limit your scope to 3rd rounders, you really ought to increase it to include every pick made *after* Jones and Caldwell came off the board, respectively. That will give you a true picture of how good/bad those particular picks were.
 
dalemurphy said:
Here's the 2009 3rd round. Still think Caldwell was a bad pick?


65 New York Jets Shonn Greene RB Iowa
66 St. Louis Rams Bradley Fletcher DB Iowa
67 Kansas City Chiefs Alex Magee DT Purdue
68 Chicago Bears Jarron Gilbert DT San Jose State
69 Dallas Cowboys Jason Williams LB Western Illinois
70 Cincinnati Bengals Michael Johnson DE Georgia Tech
71 Oakland Raiders Matt Shaughnessy DE Wisconsin
72 Jacksonville Jaguars Terrance Knighton DT Temple
73 Jacksonville Jaguars Derek Cox DB William & Mary
74 San Francisco 49ers Glen Coffee RB Alabama
75 Dallas Cowboys Robert Brewster T Ball State
76 Detroit Lions DeAndre Levy LB Wisconsin
77 Houston Texans Antoine Caldwell C Alabama
78 San Diego Chargers Louis Vasquez G Texas Tech
79 Pittsburgh Steelers Kraig Urbik T Wisconsin
80 Washington Redskins Kevin Barnes DB Maryland
81 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Roy Miller DT Texas
82 Detroit Lions Derrick Williams WR Penn State
83 New England Patriots Brandon Tate WR North Carolina
84 Pittsburgh Steelers Mike Wallace WR Mississippi
85 New York Giants Ramses Barden WR Cal Poly-S.L.O.
86 Minnesota Vikings Asher Allen DB Georgia
87 Miami Dolphins Patrick Turner WR USC
88 Baltimore Ravens Lardarius Webb DB Nicholls State
89 Tennessee Titans Jared Cook TE South Carolina
90 Atlanta Falcons Chris Owens DB San Jose State
91 Seattle Seahawks Deon Butler WR Penn State
92 Indianapolis Colts Jerraud Powers DB Auburn
93 Carolina Panthers Corvey Irvin DT Georgia
94 Tennessee Titans Ryan Mouton DB Hawaii
95 Arizona Cardinals Rashad Johnson DB Alabama
96 Pittsburgh Steelers Keenan Lewis DB Oregon State
97 New England Patriots Tyrone McKenzie OLB South Florida
98 Cincinnati Bengals Chase Coffman TE Missouri
99 Chicago Bears Juaquin Iglesias WR Oklahoma
100 New York Giants Travis Beckum TE Wisconsin
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You didn't bold Bradley Fletcher, Michael Johnson, Terrance Knighton, Louis Vasquez, Roy Miller, Asher Allen, and Ladarius Webb, who have all had a greater impact than Caldwell, some much significantly greater.
 
nero THE zero said:
You didn't bold Bradley Fletcher, Michael Johnson, Terrance Knighton, Louis Vasquez, Roy Miller, Asher Allen, and Ladarius Webb, who have all had a greater impact than Caldwell, some much significantly greater.
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I missed Webb... I would disagree with you on most of the rest of them, particularly Asher Allen, who hasn't won the starting job and when he's played, he's been part of an awful secondary. Regardless, though, I'm not trying to split hairs. The point is that, even if you want to prove Caldwell was a poor pick and you have a negative view of him, you still would have to admit that there the majority of the picks in the 3rd round were worse than his.
 
DonnyMost said:
The phrasing of your question was kind of awkward.

I understand what you were going for now.

*edit: It's a little disingenuous of you to limit your scope to 3rd rounders, you really ought to increase it to include every pick made *after* Jones and Caldwell came off the board, respectively. That will give you a true picture of how good/bad those particular picks were.
Click to expand...

No. We weren't picking at the beginning of the round. I'm discussing the 3rd round in response to a poster who said we've drafted poorly in the 3rd round and when I brought up Jacoby and Caldwell as examples of drafting well in the 3rd, he balked at that.
 
dalemurphy said:
No. We weren't picking at the beginning of the round. I'm discussing the 3rd round in response to a poster who said we've drafted poorly in the 3rd round and when I brought up Jacoby and Caldwell as examples of drafting well in the 3rd, he balked at that.
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If you honestly think the Texans have done a good job in the 2nd and 3rd round then there is no rational conversation to be had regarding the team. They have done OK. That is it. All of those players are "OK." And Slaton isn't going to be cut because of an injury...why he slowed down. He bulked up and started Year 2 playing badly. He is getting cut because they have Foster and Tate and he isn't even a good kick returner. Jacoby isn't a good 3rd rounder. He has done nothing so far that has made you say "he is a major contributor on this team." from a consistency point. You also can't just look at the 3rd round and say "look." There are guys inthe 4th round better. And because a guy isn't a name guy you bolded doesn't mean he hasn't contributed on another team. again, it is failed discussion when guys who watch film say that these guys aren't up to snuff and yet you are convinced they have worked because of what? It's not a bad thing to admit they haven't drafted well.

On another note..McShay actually had Peterson FALLING to #11

http://twitter.com/#!/evansilva

evansilva Evan Silva
And per @NFLXpert, ESPN's Todd McShay has Patrick Peterson falling all the way to #Texans at 11. Gosselin has Peterson 5th to #Cardinals
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.
 
Heh.

I'm amazed that Dale is still overlooking Terrance Knighton, considering that fact that he is in our division and might be the best player out of that entire round.

Might want to get to know him, Dale.
 
HoustonFrog said:
If you honestly think the Texans have done a good job in the 2nd and 3rd round then there is no rational conversation to be had regarding the team. They have done OK. That is it. All of those players are "OK." And Slaton isn't going to be cut because of an injury...why he slowed down. He bulked up and started Year 2 playing badly. He is getting cut because they have Foster and Tate and he isn't even a good kick returner. Jacoby isn't a good 3rd rounder. He has done nothing so far that has made you say "he is a major contributor on this team." from a consistency point. You also can't just look at the 3rd round and say "look." There are guys inthe 4th round better. And because a guy isn't a name guy you bolded doesn't mean he hasn't contributed on another team. again, it is failed discussion when guys who watch film and a majority here say that these guys aren't up to snuff and yet you are convinced they have worked because of what? This is typical Dale spin for the good guys. It's not a bad thing to admit they haven't drafted well.

On another note..McShay actually had Peterson FALLING to #11

http://twitter.com/#!/evansilva

.
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I have plenty of criticism for Smith and Kubiak. I just disagree that the central problem has been the draft. If you can't admit that Jacoby Jones was a better 3rd round pick than most 3rd rounders in 2007, then you are the one not admitting the truth... I'm not even a Jones fan, but I know enough about the rest of the NFL to acknowledge the Texans did well to get him in 2007.

I'm not trying to argue that the Texans have drafted "great". I think the 2009 draft has the potential to be an excellent draft. I think the 2007 draft was poor, with the exception of the Schaub trade and the Jones selection (2nd and 3rd round pick).

What I see is that the Texans fan base is so frustrated with the failures of the team that they blame anything and everything. This organization has failed to produce. They've done some things poorly and some things pretty well. The results, so far, have been mediocre to poor. I'm trying to acknowledge the things they've done well as well as where they have failed. I don't see how that is spin.
 
I actually agree with dale on the 2nd and 3rd round issue. We traded two 2nd for Schaub which I think was a wonderful trade.

Then drafting, I really really like Barwin and it sucks he got injured last year. Everyone wants home runs with every pick but that's not what NFL teams go for. Barwin was drafted as a situational Pass Rusher. We had Antonio and Mario, Barwin was going to come in only to rush the passer on obvious downs and he did that very well his rookie season. Led all rookie DEs in sacks. I think he's going to recover fine from his injury and will be a very good OLB for us.

Ben Tate was an excellent pick as well, another one of those 'that sucks he got injured'. You can't call him a bad pick because of that. Foster has exploded on the scene and that's good IMO for Tate as he'll have plenty of time to get healthy and not have any hits on him when his number is called.

Jacoby was a selection that everyone knew needed coaching, he was raw. I loved the selection at the time with this in mind. Andre and Walter are our starters and Jacoby fills a role they wanted him to. Would be nice if he took over the #2 role but just b/c he hasn't doesn't mean its a bad pick.

I think Caldwell was a good pick as well. I wish he would develop quicker at either C or G but it hasn't happened yet. He's played well when he's gone in the game. Brisiel is a fighter and the fact he's managed to keep a starting spot speaks volumes to him, I don't take that away from Caldwell. A 2nd year player that's providing very very good depth right now and I think will eventually become a longterm fixture on this line.

Don't forget Slaton was an extra pick we got from the trade down for Duane Brown. He played lights out his rookie season. None of us thought he could be the primary number 1 guy and he showed us that. Slaton was a huge reason for our success that season but has been ineffective after his neck injury. We got him in the 3rd.

No they havn't been probowlers but I still like the selections, call me a dumbass if you want. They're drafting these guys for specific roles. Glover Quin was not drafted with the thought of becoming our #1 CB or anything. He was drafted specifically because they loved his ability to play the nickle and cover the WR in the slot and be physical. The fact that he's been forced to do more than that out of team need speaks volumes to what a great 4th rounder that was.

I totally agree with the thought that the draft picks were good but the position coaches have not developed our guys well enough. The regress and don't progress, hopefully that changes with Wade.
 
HoustonFrog said:
That is all speculation. LZ was just discussing this on the air this morning with John Harris. All agreed that they have failed badly. 2nd and 3rd rounders are supposed to be big time contributors. Barwin and Tate have been non-factors. Injuries and when they played(Barwin). Just because you like Barwin doesn't mean he is a hit. Jacoby Jones hasn't been a top #2 and has had issues with ball control. Caldwell and Earl Mitchell or "OK." That isn't good. Slaton just was a one year wonder. He bulked up on his own and got slower. He is about to be cut. How is that good?
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I am really tired of hearing about Barwin. Barwin this Barwin that... He sounds like our great white hope! He has done nothing!!! I know injury, but even before then really nothing. Looks good, almost gets there, but no concrete results. I am afraid though that the Texans are banking on him. That is the damn problem, they think a year older so better, but guess what the other teams young players are getting that same year but they have better coaches so guess what , the Texans are still behind. Just like when they counted on Slaton the 2nd year. Fans can live the dream/fantasy world COACHES CAN'T. But our coaches do. I know I am pretty pissed off about this organization. I said it before and I will say it again we have babies running the football part of the organization. By the way I do agree with the above.
 
dalemurphy said:
I have plenty of criticism for Smith and Kubiak. I just disagree that the central problem has been the draft. If you can't admit that Jacoby Jones was a better 3rd round pick than most 3rd rounders in 2007, then you are the one not admitting the truth... I'm not even a Jones fan, but I know enough about the rest of the NFL to acknowledge the Texans did well to get him in 2007.

I'm not trying to argue that the Texans have drafted "great". I think the 2009 draft has the potential to be an excellent draft. I think the 2007 draft was poor, with the exception of the Schaub trade and the Jones selection (2nd and 3rd round pick).

What I see is that the Texans fan base is so frustrated with the failures of the team that they blame anything and everything. This organization has failed to produce. They've done some things poorly and some things pretty well. The results, so far, have been mediocre to poor. I'm trying to acknowledge the things they've done well as well as where they have failed. I don't see how that is spin.
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I'm trying to figure how you get this from Jacoby....by the way, Molden was a 3rd too.....Jacoby had one great preseason and one real season of good special teams. In 4 Full seasons at WR he has a total of 96 catches and 9 Tds. He was supposed to be a guy who supplants a Kevin Walter as a #2 and who takes pressure off AJ. This hasn't happened. Half of the catches were last year but he still wasn't an impact. Laurent Robinson on the Rams, picked right below Jacoby has 89 catches in 4 years and 4 TDs. Mike Sims Walker is a mess and has only played 3 full seasons and has better numbers. James Jones..better by a mile. Charles Johnson had almost 11.5 sacks for Carolina last year. Marshall Yanda started all 16 games at Tackle for the Ravens last year. Michael Bush in the top of the 4th has had more impact for the Raiders. What you are missing is that no matter what these guys do or will do the same criteria applies..did they get value in the 3rd..a big contributor on a losing team. The answer is that he is OK. On a losing team that needs players to step up, getting projects and raw players aren't what you need out of 2nd and 3rds.
 
Last edited:
gafftop said:
I am really tired of hearing about Barwin. Barwin this Barwin that... He sounds like our great white hope! He has done nothing!!! I know injury, but even before then really nothing. Looks good, almost gets there, but no concrete results. I am afraid though that the Texans are banking on him. That is the damn problem, they think a year older so better, but guess what the other teams young players are getting that same year but they have better coaches so guess what , the Texans are still behind. Just like when they counted on Slaton the 2nd year. Fans can live the dream/fantasy world COACHES CAN'T. But our coaches do. I know I am pretty pissed off about this organization. I said it before and I will say it again we have babies running the football part of the organization. By the way I do agree with the above.
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I actually agree with you. One of the organization's biggest problems has been relying on inexperienced players heading into a new season, particularly on defense. Even though I love Barwin, they need to address the depth at that position in a way they have not shown the proclivity to before. Last season, for instance, they had all kinds of big plans for Barwin in their pass rush packages. Then, after he was injured in week one, they had nobody backing him up that could fulfill the role. That's just stupid! And, don't even get me started about the safety situation in 2009!
 
The1ApplePie said:
Todd "I Ruined Jevon Snead's Career" McShay basically said it was a lock that the Texans were trading with the Cardinals to get Patrick Peterson.

The way he stated it made it sound like a done deal.

Kind of like Jevon Snead as a first round pick
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This kind of makes sense if:

Arizona gets Houston's first rounder this year, first rounder next year, and a 4th or 5th this year. I don't know if that works on the points chart.

But this would allow Arizona to flip next year's first for kevin Kolb, essentially turning their #5 pick to our #11 pick plus Kevin Kolb. That would be huge for them.

I see Arizona trading out for this reason. It might not be the Texans, but it will be with someone. And Dallas' future first is worth less than ours because, well, we're incompetent and our future first is likely to be damn good.
 
people are seriously defending Rick Smith's track record on drafting?

Really? Really? That is just off the charts homering.

Rick has been horrible. Just because you like the guys he picked doesn't make them good. Just because a guy starts on our pathetic team doesn't make him good.

Rick has made two good moves and both are non-draft related. Traded for Matt. Signed Arian Foster as UDFA. Those are his positive moves, and they were good moves. HOWEVER, that doesn't make up for the annual failure that is the Texans draft. The last good draft we had, he wasn't even in our front office.

If Rick Smith trades up and gives up a 1st Rounder or a 2nd and a 3rd, I am going to be livid. With this late flurry on QBs, we could do just fine where we are at.

DO NOT TAKE ALDON SMITH AT #11.

which means that is exactly what they are going to do.....
 
Second Honeymoon said:
people are seriously defending Rick Smith's track record on drafting?

Really? Really? That is just off the charts homering.

Rick has been horrible. Just because you like the guys he picked doesn't make them good. Just because a guy starts on our pathetic team doesn't make him good.

Rick has made two good moves and both are non-draft related. Traded for Matt. Signed Arian Foster as UDFA. Those are his positive moves, and they were good moves. HOWEVER, that doesn't make up for the annual failure that is the Texans draft. The last good draft we had, he wasn't even in our front office.

If Rick Smith trades up and gives up a 1st Rounder or a 2nd and a 3rd, I am going to be livid. With this late flurry on QBs, we could do just fine where we are at.DO NOT TAKE ALDON SMITH AT #11.

which means that is exactly what they are going to do.....
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I agree completely on the bolded above. If Gosselin's predictions come through with the QB runs than I expect teams sitting at 9-13 to have guys falling to them that they might not expect. The Cards at 5 and Cleveland at 6 are just trying to get over right now and are waiting for a haul. In fact I'd expect them to try and hit with a team like NE where 1sts are involved than with a Texans for a 2nd or the Cowboys for a 3rd. Why pass up a top player for that?
 
Second Honeymoon said:
people are seriously defending Rick Smith's track record on drafting?

Really? Really? That is just off the charts homering.

Rick has been horrible. Just because you like the guys he picked doesn't make them good. Just because a guy starts on our pathetic team doesn't make him good.

Rick has made two good moves and both are non-draft related. Traded for Matt. Signed Arian Foster as UDFA. Those are his positive moves, and they were good moves. HOWEVER, that doesn't make up for the annual failure that is the Texans draft. The last good draft we had, he wasn't even in our front office.

If Rick Smith trades up and gives up a 1st Rounder or a 2nd and a 3rd, I am going to be livid. With this late flurry on QBs, we could do just fine where we are at.

DO NOT TAKE ALDON SMITH AT #11.

which means that is exactly what they are going to do.....
Click to expand...

That's true. Maybe just from following the draft so closely for 6 years, some of the players he has drafted are ones that I have thought highly of going in. Okoye (yes most all on here liked the pick at the time), Jacoby, Fred Bennett (played great rookie year), Zac Diles (7th round competitor), Duane Brown to finaly address LT, Steve Slaton (was awesome as a rookie and exciting), Xavier Adibi, Brian Cushing, Connor Barwin (pass rush specialist), Antoine Caldwell (push OL), Glover Quin (nickle CB), James Casey (hands of glue), Kareem Jackson (need pick, need to develop), Ben Tate (will be great RB in this system), Earl Mitchell (penetrating DT), Darryl Sharpton (very good ILB) Trindon Holliday (fun exciting flyer pick for a 6th).

It's easy to look at those players and say "what have they done for us?" and I understand that. Most of these guys are ones I've followed predraft and knew about them coming into the team and liked the fits. I stand by the comment that the coaching staff hasn't done the job of making them develop into the players we need them to be.

So maybe they are all bad terrible players and stupid draft picks. I like most all of these players and I'm not a Rick Smith apologist. So what does this tell me and you? That I shouldn't be GM of the Texans and neither should most of us... even though we all think we are so freaking smart.
 
Conerning the run on QB's early -

I just cant see it. None of these "top" tier QB's looks like an NFL QB from day one to me. I think teams would be better off looking for a QB early in round two.

Hell I wouldnt take Newton or Gabbert in the first round much less any of the others.Locker , Dalton and Kaepernick will probably turn out to be more productive in the NFL.


Teams may have a need for a QB , but if they arent NFL quality talents , I just cant see them being drafted that early. Someone will take a stab Im sure , they always do. But three in the top ten is asking a whole lot.
 
May have already been posted:

The hot prospect: LSU CB Patrick Peterson.

He's probably the one player teams might consider trading up in the top 10 to get. I had Houston moving up to No. 7 to pick him in the first round in my mock draft last week; this week, ESPN's Todd McShay had Houston moving up to number five, dealing with Arizona, to get Peterson. I've been told in the past couple of days that Houston GM Rick Smith is loathe to use so much draft currency to move up from 11 to five or seven to get Peterson (it would likely cost him the Texans' second-round pick to do so).

Let's assume the number two corner on many boards, Prince Amukamara, is available at 11. If you're Smith, you ask yourself: Would I trade Patrick Peterson for Amukamara and any one of three options at positions of need with pick number 42 in the second round -- the third wide receiver (maybe Maryland's Torrey Smith), the first safety (UCLA's Rahim Moore), or maybe the second running back (Mikel Leshoure of Illinois). That's a tough question. The gap between Peterson and the next corner would have to be huge for Houston to do that.


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...28/nfl-draft-preview/index.html#ixzz1KqKygVxl​
 
About the only person that Rick Smith would be an upgrade over at GM is Matt Millen. To take Okoye with Willis, Revis ect..still on the board is almost inexcusable. Dunta was a runt, and you couldn't give him the money they did, but they KNEW he was coming up on free agency and they didn't try and draft a replacement a year earlier or sign a FA. Forced a Kareen Jackson pick with better players all over the place, took Cushing despite his roids use being the worst kept secret EVER, hired Frank Bush without interviewing a SINGLE ****ING PERSON(including SB winning DC Greg Williams), drafter Antwoun Molden, hung on to said Antwoun Molden despite the guy playing as many games for the Texans as I have, drafting 9,000,000,000 tight ends, gave Reeves 20 million bucks, then cut said player when he had no other options at CB, allergic to free safeties, allergic to fat defensive tackles. Did I miss anything?

Second Honeymoon is right, there is really no possible way to defend Smith.
 
Hoth-Boy said:
Peter King reports the Smith is "loathe" to trade up



http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...g-says-texans-gm-smith-is-loathe-to-trade-up/

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...04/28/nfl-draft-preview/index.html?xid=si_nfl
Click to expand...

I'm "loathe" to trust him with making the damn picks. They just don't want to risk spending money. Just stand pat and take Aldon Smith. We are the most transparent team in the freaking world.

HoustonSportsFan09 said:
May have already been posted:

The hot prospect: LSU CB Patrick Peterson.

He's probably the one player teams might consider trading up in the top 10 to get. I had Houston moving up to No. 7 to pick him in the first round in my mock draft last week; this week, ESPN's Todd McShay had Houston moving up to number five, dealing with Arizona, to get Peterson. I've been told in the past couple of days that Houston GM Rick Smith is loathe to use so much draft currency to move up from 11 to five or seven to get Peterson (it would likely cost him the Texans' second-round pick to do so).

Let's assume the number two corner on many boards, Prince Amukamara, is available at 11. If you're Smith, you ask yourself: Would I trade Patrick Peterson for Amukamara and any one of three options at positions of need with pick number 42 in the second round -- the third wide receiver (maybe Maryland's Torrey Smith), the first safety (UCLA's Rahim Moore), or maybe the second running back (Mikel Leshoure of Illinois). That's a tough question. The gap between Peterson and the next corner would have to be huge for Houston to do that.


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...28/nfl-draft-preview/index.html#ixzz1KqKygVxl​
Click to expand...

The gap is pretty big, but Smith wouldn't know his elbow from his asshole as far as this whole draft doohickie thing is concerned.
 
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I was a big fan of Jacoby and have always wanted him to succeed but the last season or two, I've gotten tired of his attitude and dropped balls/fumbles. I truly hope the light goes off in his head though.

With that said, let's see how the other WRs have faired that were drafted immediately behind him:

1. Jacoby Jones - 96 rec; 1,229 yards; 9 TDs
2. Yamon Figurs - 5 rec; 103 yards; 1 TD (on his sixth team)
3. Laurent Robinson - 89 rec; 1,000 yards; 4 TDs (on his second team)
4. Jason Hill - 51 rec; 661 yards; 5 TDs (on his second team)
5. James Jones - 149 rec; 2,069 yards; 13 TDs
6. Mike Sims-Walker - 122 rec; 1,648 yards; 14 TDs
7. Paul Williams - 1 rec; 7 yards; 0 TDs (on his second team)
8. Johnnie Lee Higgins - 57 rec; 779 yards; 4 TDs
9. Isaiah Stanback - 5 rec; 46 yards; 0 TDs (on his third team)

I would say James Jones and Mike Sims-Walker are the only two that have clearly outperformed Jacoby. Sims-Walker doesn't really have any other WRs that draw that many balls away from him in Jacksonville. James Jones on the other hand has done very well alongside Gred Jennings, a great WR. Jacoby here has Andre Johnson who has caught an amazing 362 receptions since JJ has been in the league. That compares to the 277 receptions that Jennings has caught in the same period. This doesn't take into account Jacoby's ability on STs which was a big reason why we drafted him. Correct me if I'm wrong (because I really don't know) but I don't think James Jones is a returner and I know MSW isn't.
 
Corrosion said:
Conerning the run on QB's early -

I just cant see it. None of these "top" tier QB's looks like an NFL QB from day one to me. I think teams would be better off looking for a QB early in round two.

Hell I wouldnt take Newton or Gabbert in the first round much less any of the others.Locker , Dalton and Kaepernick will probably turn out to be more productive in the NFL.


Teams may have a need for a QB , but if they arent NFL quality talents , I just cant see them being drafted that early. Someone will take a stab Im sure , they always do. But three in the top ten is asking a whole lot.
Click to expand...

Your way of thinking is too practical though. About 5-6 teams need QBs. All of them are afraid that the other one is going to beat them to the punch. So the QBs have been overvalued. So they will go higher than expected...before the 2nd round. I'm not sure if you have been paying attention to Greg Cosell but he is considered perhaps to be the best talent evaluator out there. He does all the NFL Films work for Jaworski before his pregame shows. He's been around but just the last 2 seasons every NFL person out there has ackowledged this. He watches about 15 hours a tape a day and breaks down all games in the pros and has been doing it for college. Anways, he has been on 1560 and I follow him on Twitter. Here is what he has been saying

http://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell

gregcosell Greg Cosell
Many predict 8 QB in 1st 3 rounds. Need or evaluation? If it's need, i.e. desperation, teams will be disappointed. Can't sit QBs today.
Click to expand...

gregcosell Greg Cosell
Bottom line: If CAR believes Newton will be special they have to draft him. QB supersedes all. If any reservations at all, can't draft him.
Click to expand...

gregcosell Greg Cosell
Recent draft history suggests that highly drafted QB have early success. Big reason there will be a run on QB. Most compelling part of draft
Click to expand...
 
HoustonSportsFan09 said:
Let's assume the number two corner on many boards, Prince Amukamara, is available at 11. If you're Smith, you ask yourself: Would I trade Patrick Peterson for Amukamara and any one of three options at positions of need with pick number 42 in the second round -- the third wide receiver (maybe Maryland's Torrey Smith), the first safety (UCLA's Rahim Moore), or maybe the second running back (Mikel Leshoure of Illinois). That's a tough question. The gap between Peterson and the next corner would have to be huge for Houston to do that.
Click to expand...
I would gladly trade our 2nd round pick and Prince Amukamara for Patrick Peterson. But that's not what I'm worried about b/c I wouldn't draft Prince at 11. Would I trade Cam Jordan/JJ Watt plus a 2nd rounder for Patrick? That's what I have a hard time doing.
BigBull17 said:
About the only person that Rick Smith would be an upgrade over at GM is Matt Millen. To take Okoye with Willis, Revis ect..still on the board is almost inexcusable.
Click to expand...
LOL - it's so funny to see comments like this. People have no concept of time and easily forget things. Okoye was a highly rated player among all the draft circles and a lock to go top 10. Many mocks didn't have him falling to 10 and all of them had us taking him if he was available.

Patrick Willis and LaRon Landry were my 2 absolute favorites in that draft. There were a few of us, VERY VERY few that openly and publicly supported drafting Patrick Willis. And the few of us that did got ridiculed and called names b/c we had Demeco who was DROY and a pro bowler.

Leon Hall was talked about as the #1 CB that year virtually the whole draft process until very late in the game when Revis' stock improved. Again, there were a few of us that really liked Revis and had his name in the hat as a possibility - I loved his return abilities too. Most of the people on here wanted Leon Hall if we were to go CB.

Maybe you were one that knew all the answers but I get frustrated when 1,2,5 years down the road people don't really put things in the context that they were at the time. Sorry to rant, it's not necessarily directed at you. :)
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
I would gladly trade our 2nd round pick and Prince Amukamara for Patrick Peterson. But that's not what I'm worried about b/c I wouldn't draft Prince at 11. Would I trade Cam Jordan/JJ Watt plus a 2nd rounder for Patrick? That's what I have a hard time doing.

LOL - it's so funny to see comments like this. People have no concept of time and easily forget things. Okoye was a highly rated player among all the draft circles and a lock to go top 10. Many mocks didn't have him falling to 10 and all of them had us taking him if he was available.

Patrick Willis and LaRon Landry were my 2 absolute favorites in that draft. There were a few of us, VERY VERY few that openly and publicly supported drafting Patrick Willis. And the few of us that did got ridiculed and called names b/c we had Demeco who was DROY and a pro bowler.

Leon Hall was talked about as the #1 CB that year virtually the whole draft process until very late in the game when Revis' stock improved. Again, there were a few of us that really liked Revis and had his name in the hat as a possibility - I loved his return abilities too. Most of the people on here wanted Leon Hall if we were to go CB.

Maybe you were one that knew all the answers but I get frustrated when 1,2,5 years down the road people don't really put things in the context that they were at the time. Sorry to rant, it's not necessarily directed at you. :)
Click to expand...

I was one of the Wilis guys. I wanted no part of a 19 year old DT. None.
 
I would gladly trade our 2nd round pick and Prince Amukamara for Patrick Peterson. But that's not what I'm worried about b/c I wouldn't draft Prince at 11. Would I trade Cam Jordan/JJ Watt plus a 2nd rounder for Patrick? That's what I have a hard time doing.
Click to expand...

Why?

DE is the only place the Texans actually have quality starters at.

They have no:

Outside rushers
Nose Tackles
Safeties
No. 1 corner

I'd put No. 2 WR as a bigger need than DE.
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
I was a big fan of Jacoby and have always wanted him to succeed but the last season or two, I've gotten tired of his attitude and dropped balls/fumbles. I truly hope the light goes off in his head though.

With that said, let's see how the other WRs have faired that were drafted immediately behind him:

1. Jacoby Jones - 96 rec; 1,229 yards; 9 TDs
2. Yamon Figurs - 5 rec; 103 yards; 1 TD (on his sixth team)
3. Laurent Robinson - 89 rec; 1,000 yards; 4 TDs (on his second team)
4. Jason Hill - 51 rec; 661 yards; 5 TDs (on his second team)
5. James Jones - 149 rec; 2,069 yards; 13 TDs
6. Mike Sims-Walker - 122 rec; 1,648 yards; 14 TDs
7. Paul Williams - 1 rec; 7 yards; 0 TDs (on his second team)
8. Johnnie Lee Higgins - 57 rec; 779 yards; 4 TDs
9. Isaiah Stanback - 5 rec; 46 yards; 0 TDs (on his third team)

I would say James Jones and Mike Sims-Walker are the only two that have clearly outperformed Jacoby. Sims-Walker doesn't really have any other WRs that draw that many balls away from him in Jacksonville. James Jones on the other hand has done very well alongside Gred Jennings, a great WR. Jacoby here has Andre Johnson who has caught an amazing 362 receptions since JJ has been in the league. That compares to the 277 receptions that Jennings has caught in the same period. This doesn't take into account Jacoby's ability on STs which was a big reason why we drafted him. Correct me if I'm wrong (because I really don't know) but I don't think James Jones is a returner and I know MSW isn't.
Click to expand...
I don't really see how it's fair to discount Sims-Walker's production because he "doesn't really have any other WRs that draw that many balls away from him in Jacksonville" (even though he does in Mike Thomas), while James Jones doesn't get credit for producing better numbers while having to share targets with Jennings, Driver, and Finley.
 
The1ApplePie said:
Why?

DE is the only place the Texans actually have quality starters at.

They have no:

Outside rushers
Nose Tackles
Safeties
No. 1 corner

I'd put No. 2 WR as a bigger need than DE.
Click to expand...

1. Jordan is very likely BPA at 11
2. Smith and Williams have both expressed reservations playing in a 3-4
3. Williams is a FA after this year
4. We have no depth at DE
 
The biggest wrench I see in the trade up for Peterson..besides giving up too much..is Wade. Wade was always a big believer in Dallas that you have to build your 3-4 through your line and with the pressure off the edge and up front you improve the secondary. So with that said and him having the keys to the D I'd think he'd like his pick of DE/OLB and then they go DB/Safety in the 2nd.
 
nero THE zero said:
1. Jordan is very likely BPA at 11
2. Smith and Williams have both expressed reservations playing in a 3-4
3. Williams is a FA after this year
4. We have no depth at DE
Click to expand...

Hey nero, if you has a choice between Smith and Quinn which would you take? I can't make up my mind. I think Quinn's the better player, but I'm sure the Texans are worried about this tumor he had.
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
That's true. Maybe just from following the draft so closely for 6 years, some of the players he has drafted are ones that I have thought highly of going in. Okoye (yes most all on here liked the pick at the time), Jacoby, Fred Bennett (played great rookie year), Zac Diles (7th round competitor), Duane Brown to finaly address LT, Steve Slaton (was awesome as a rookie and exciting), Xavier Adibi, Brian Cushing, Connor Barwin (pass rush specialist), Antoine Caldwell (push OL), Glover Quin (nickle CB), James Casey (hands of glue), Kareem Jackson (need pick, need to develop), Ben Tate (will be great RB in this system), Earl Mitchell (penetrating DT), Darryl Sharpton (very good ILB) Trindon Holliday (fun exciting flyer pick for a 6th).

It's easy to look at those players and say "what have they done for us?" and I understand that. Most of these guys are ones I've followed predraft and knew about them coming into the team and liked the fits. I stand by the comment that the coaching staff hasn't done the job of making them develop into the players we need them to be.

So maybe they are all bad terrible players and stupid draft picks. I like most all of these players and I'm not a Rick Smith apologist. So what does this tell me and you? That I shouldn't be GM of the Texans and neither should most of us... even though we all think we are so freaking smart.
Click to expand...

This post right here & the bolded in particular pretty much sums up my feelings towards all these arm chair coaches & GM's in here who just "knew" this or that...
 
HOU-TEX said:
Hey nero, if you has a choice between Smith and Quinn which would you take? I can't make up my mind. I think Quinn's the better player, but I'm sure the Texans are worried about this tumor he had.
Click to expand...

I like Quinn infinitely better than Smith. I'm no expert, but from what I've read, including from CnD, the tumor shouldn't be much of a concern. Considering that, Quinn's superior production, versatility, and athleticism make him exponentially more attractive to me.
 
The1ApplePie said:
Why?

DE is the only place the Texans actually have quality starters at.

They have no:

Outside rushers
Nose Tackles
Safeties
No. 1 corner

I'd put No. 2 WR as a bigger need than DE.
Click to expand...
I'm not convinced Antonio Smith is a franchise 3-4DE. Everyone dismisses the need b/c "he's played it at Arizona". I actually like Mario on one end and Jordan/Watt on the other as our longterm fixtures. Smith moves in to DT on passing downs. Leaving Watt-Smith-Mitchell-Mario with Barwin or Anderson or Rookie OLB moving up to the line and rushing from a Joker position.

If we stay at 11 and take Jordan/Watt we have the 2nd rounder for a good pass rusher. Or we can move up into late first and get "Wade's favorite OLB" whoever that may be.. I'm hoping Brooks Reed.
nero THE zero said:
I don't really see how it's fair to discount Sims-Walker's production because he "doesn't really have any other WRs that draw that many balls away from him in Jacksonville" (even though he does in Mike Thomas), while James Jones doesn't get credit for producing better numbers while having to share targets with Jennings, Driver, and Finley.
Click to expand...
My last paragraph I just wanted to address their respective situations. Wasn't trying to discount either's production because I believe both have outperformed Jacoby's. I wouldn't doubt that if Jacoby was playing for the Jags, he would have seen more receptions and TDs though.

Mike Thomas:
2010: 66 rec; 820 yds; 4 TDs
2009: 48 rec; 453 yds; 1 TD

Kevin Walter:
2010: 51 rec; 621 yds; 5 TDs
2009: 53 rec; 611 yds; 2 TDs
2008: 60 rec; 899 yds; 8 TDs
2007: 65 rec; 800 yds; 4 TDs

Don't forget Andre Johnson's 100+ receptions/year...
 
nero THE zero said:
I like Quinn infinitely better than Smith. I'm no expert, but from what I've read, including from CnD, the tumor shouldn't be much of a concern. Considering that, Quinn's superior production, versatility, and athleticism make him exponentially more attractive to me.
Click to expand...

Thanks. It's going to be an interesting evening. Lookin forward to it
 
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