wagonhed
Team Gruden
Why? The whole point is he is a very good player, regardless of how much he cares about football.
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Video of my least favorite Texan: meet Mario Williams
- Thread starter dalemurphy
- Start date
silvrhand
All Pro
Wagon you act like this is the first time that he has gotten called out, hell even Coach Kubiak called him out and pulled him aside in a one on one meeting last year. His own teammates were calling out his effort, and it shows on film.
I don't know why you guys act like this is a shocking relevation, hell it was even in his SCOUTING report from college.
TEXANRED
Texan-American
So on one hand I have a guy (Mario) who doesn't give a damn and gives a half ass effort and has only produced 19 tackles and 6 sacks.
And on the other hand I have a guy (Smith) who has a high motor, lots of effort, and cares and has put up a steller 20 tackles and 2.5 sacks.
So, half ass little effort gets you the same as high motor lots of effort.
Hmm.
Are we sure we know what our DE's job assignments are on each play? Follow me here, sometimes the play calls for the end to stay home and secure the edge or spy the QB.
Mario is awesome. Mario is asked to do a lot more than just rush the passer.
wagonhed
Team Gruden
Where did I act like I was shocked? I've said half a dozen times he has a poor motor.
silvrhand
All Pro
Outside of the first two games where he had 4 sacks, Mario has been mr. nobody. In the last 6 games he's had 2 sacks and about 12 tackles.. real barn burner...
TEXANRED
Texan-American
Soooooo he has had as many sacks in 6 games as Smith? How are you planning to win this debate?
Not saying Smith is bad. I like Smith. But to praise Smith and spit on Mario, well....:mariopalm:
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Praising the effort of one and complaining about the effort of the other. I'm not sure what is confusing about that.
Nothing I said would indicate that I think Smith is more talented than Mario... the reverse is true. Mario is very talented and is either very injured or he's healthy and just doesn't give a damn about the team, teammates, and the season.
BullNation4Life
All Pro
Considering the video clearly debunks that whole blog, Mario is 1 sack off from where Peppers was his first 4 years ( won't count this year because it hasn't finished yet) in the league and 5 off where Bruce Smith was in his first 4 years, I'd say Mario Williams is doing just fine. Now could he play better, sure who on that atrocious defense couldn't. Antonio Smith has been on the team for what 2 years now and only has 7 sacks total is laughable as well...
but since stats and those who judge a DE only by sacks are for losers, as they say, I will agree to disagree...
but since stats and those who judge a DE only by sacks are for losers, as they say, I will agree to disagree...
Texan4Ever
All Pro
I saw Mario at The Galleria after the Texans lost to the Saints (preseason last year?) He was very ticked-off looking and was walking away really quickly. Probabaly a great guy when he's not mad...anyways
I agree, seems to me that Mario is not 100%, but regardless wether or not he's at a 100% or not, w/o our defensive line would suck. Having him go through the motions forces opposing teams to acknowledge where he's at and account for him because you never know where and when he's gonna come attack you.
Antonio Smith is a great addition to the team, he may not wow you with stats but he does the small things well and gives us another run-stopper who is a force to be reckoned with.
I agree, seems to me that Mario is not 100%, but regardless wether or not he's at a 100% or not, w/o our defensive line would suck. Having him go through the motions forces opposing teams to acknowledge where he's at and account for him because you never know where and when he's gonna come attack you.
Antonio Smith is a great addition to the team, he may not wow you with stats but he does the small things well and gives us another run-stopper who is a force to be reckoned with.
TEXANRED
Texan-American
I would have to say when you open with calling Mario Williams 285lbs of sculpted **** as being the same as talentless.
Now, that may or may not be the way you meant it but it is certainly how, IMO, perceived.
Also I don't understand how anyone could say that Mario doesn't give a damn. I don't see it. To know what IDGAF looks like look no further than Randy Moss.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Riiiiight!!! How is that "besides the point"??? We would've been stuck with Reggie, "I haven't done shite in this league, nor can I stay on the field" Bush or Vincent "Sausage, shirtless nekkid, Diva Boi" Young been a better a pick???
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Agenda.
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
I disagree. DM's an intense guy when it comes to the Texans. I've never seen a guy get so crazy over a football team.
Not to say they don't exist, I just haven't seen one.
Dale just switched to the dark side, and his anger is unfocused, as is often the case with new apprentices. He has not yet learned to channel his fear and anger as many of us pink-soapers have. We all know the goal is to turn the Empire against itself and let it implode, but Dale hasn't caught wind of that yet.
Back to the thread: My opinion: as the defense goes, so goes Mario. When your defense is giving up 400+ yards every week, Mario doesn't do anything to stand out. When the defense is feasting, then Mario gets a couple helpings.
When the system sucks, I just don't think much can be expected from Mario. We've seen it before.
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
When you've got talking heads AND players talking about how simplistic
the defensive scheme is, the players WILL be demoralized. No matter
what they do, the players know where to go with the ball before the
snap. The Giants and Cowboys exposed two key weaknesses
in the pass defense: Kareem Jackson's tendency to "look inside," and
lack of creativity from Frank Bush's schemes.
The defense has been getting WORKED since the Cowboys game, and since
they're making the same mistakes over and over again, even BETTER
coaches like Norv, Del Rio, Fisher, Reid, Harbaugh, and Ryan will find NEW ways to exploit the sieve.
With every game the Texans play, more and more tape goes out to the coaches.
Kareem ALONE spots every opponent two touchdowns, and Kubiak is STEADFAST
in leaving him in there. The Titans got RANDY MOSS. The Ravens got ANQUAN BOLDIN.
The Eagles got DESEAN JACKSON. If "Don'MessWitMYTooToot" can burn Kareem like that,
what's Mike Simms-Walker gonna do?
GOTT DAMN, it's gonna be a long 8 games!
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Pressure leads to picks, coverage leads to sacks. If mario is rushing the qb, but the wr is getting open on the 1st read, he's not getting a sack. If mario is coming upfield but there is no gut pressure fromt the tackles, the qb will step up and deliver. They have alot of breakdowns and there is a big reason why qb's have the highest ratings and completions vs this team.
silvrhand
All Pro
Come on Bill you and I both have talked about this before something is wrong with Mario we don't know what it is but given his history I would assume it's motivation.
It could be the fact that he's just not good at playing through pain so injuries that most players play through he just can't, I dunno but something is clearly off with him. From the videos it just looks like effort IMHO. I want the OLD mario back the one that was disruptive 8-10 plays a game. That's all I want, I dont' want sacks but I want him to go
RAWR
at least 8-10 times a game and make a play, that's what great players do. Mario has all the physical talents to be great, he just can't make the next step from above averge to great.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Dale, you're way off base here. I'm not going to argue that Mario is the greatest DE to ever play or anything like that, nor am I disputing that he disappears for long stretches. But with the video you have posted, it's evident to me that you don't know how to evaluate effort. He is pushing his guy back, he chases run plays from behind (often many, many yards downfield), and he never stops pursuing.
IMO, Mario just doesn't have any wiggle to his game. He relies on speed, strength, and whatever technique is taught to him. I'd love to spend some time with Mario on the mat. Offenses would be clueless how to stop him.
IMO, Mario just doesn't have any wiggle to his game. He relies on speed, strength, and whatever technique is taught to him. I'd love to spend some time with Mario on the mat. Offenses would be clueless how to stop him.
Mario is the epitome of a Houston Texan: lots of potential with average results.
TEXANRED
Texan-American
I will have to disagree with this statement as well. With a possible 64 starting defensive ends there are only 7 DE's that are ahead of him in sacks and he is only 2.5 sacks behind the leader.
Now tackles are a different story but I think that is the style of scheme we are running. Mario has 19 and Smith has 20. This puts them in the bottom half.
Honestly I think our staff wants our line to just be a body and the LB's make all the plays. Which is dumb by the way.
I don't care about statistics. Besides, you can pick and choose to support any given perspective, as your post clearly demonstrates.
I see what I see, which is a lack of consistent pressure on opposing teams' QBs. Games are won and lost in the trenches. And with a very weak secondary, we need pressure up front to make up for our glaring weakness. Our no. 1 overall pick is simply not putting consistent pressure that he should be given his physical skills and resources devoted to acquiring and retaining his services.
I never said that he's not a good DE. I'm just pointing out that he's nowhere near as good as he could be (and should be), all things considered.
Think I agree with this and more specifically your post above this one.
In a free agency era, Mario williams is the worst sort of player to have. He is better than anything that will come onthe market, but he is not as good as he could be. Essentially, the Texans almost have to keep and have to overpay because there is not another Mario williams available either in the draft or FA market.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
He is in his 5th year in the NFL and with his third DL coach. I find it difficult to believe that what is displayed on video is that of an experienced, motivated, and healthy player with his physical abilities. If he has learned that little "wiggle" and "technique", then clearly he is not a very motivated athlete.
It is clear to me that we are seeing one of three things:
1. a very injured player.
2. a selfish and unmotivated player on gameday
3. a lazy practice player that has no respect for the game or his teammates to improve on basic fundamentals of his craft.
Unless it is number one, I really don't like the guy.
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
I'd say Mario's drop in production, again, falls on coaching (Kubiak)
Mario's most productive seasons came under the tutelage of Jethro Franklin.
If you remember, Franklin had a way of irritating Mario to the brink of
aggravated assault on the sidelines. Mario was able to convince Kubiak
to fire Jethro. It's a subtle, but critical detail in the development
of this team.
The inmates are running the assylum. That will have to change, if we're
to see the greatest 8-game turnaround in Texans' history.
eriadoc
Texan-American
And that alone doesn't lead you to at least consider that there might be coaching issues involved?
Really? You got anything to back it up?
Guess I deserved that...
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
He may be speaking about an incident I witnessed on the sideline that resulted in Smith restraining Mario after Franklin kept ignoring Mario's repeated attempts to talk to him. All the intent, getting him fired, yada yada is Dexman filling in to meet his agenda. I could as easily say the incident showed Mario's intensity and his dedication to the game because his was butt chewing the coach for his ineffective schemes. Anyone can play the self-serving conjecture game.
As for the thread, hey dale can consider Mario his least favorite player. That's a personal decision. But Mario is also one of the least significant problems on the team.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
You are right in that the 240 lb TE did not drive block Mario into oblivion. However, on at least 2 of those 3 plays, Mario (simply by doing his job better) could have made a play. Why dance with the TE and allow him to seal you. Throw that guy on the ground, seal your responsibilities, and then go make a freakin' play!
imatexan
All Pro
Since everything is Kubiak's fault, was it Kubiaks fault that Andre dropped the catch at the end of the SD game?
You might have already blamed Gary in another thread for this but I have not been on the boards much this past week.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Hold on... I have no problem criticizing poor play. I've called out Mario before and am not afraid to call him out again. This is however is a case of someone having an agenda, because in those videos, he actually did his job for the most part. Believe it or not, Mario is the one out of 11 that I generally don't worry about....
However, I do agree with you in questioning his motivation at times.
Again though, I'm not afraid to call him out when he displays massive amounts of suckitude.
imatexan
All Pro
I think Kubiak has done a terrible job in these past few games but I also believe that the players take part of that responsibility.
From what I have seen you post, it seems like you do not distribute the blame.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
dalemurphy said:
You're better than that. Trying to break down a players thoughts and emotions, rather than the execution of plays that have happened and where they are going wrong screams bad analysis. There are too many variables to be able to say "He's not doing this right because he doesn't care" when you could easily say "He failed on this play because he did this rather than doing that".
Stop playing psyche evaluator and just break down some tape for me man. You are way better at the latter than the former.
Okay, let's say 50/50 responsibility on the players. Who picked the players? With the sole exception of AJ, the collective bunch is ultimately representative of the Kubiak regime.
Do you make this stuff up yourself, or do you have help??
I agree..... surely there must have been better video where Mario wasn't Mario. But those clips show a man setting the edge the way he's supposed to, bull rushing a tackle damn near into a QB, or pursuing the run on the backside (that particular play shows him running it down on top, where he used to pursue underneath the line.... don't know why the change... don't like it).
I'd actually like to see Antonio set the edge the way Mario does & pursue on the backside like Mario does...... finish sacks, like Mario does.
Antonio's initial burst & power are amazing. I think he's a fast twitch guy (don't think Mario is), but after that initial burst, he sort of Peters away.
I would also like to see passing situations with both Mario & Antonio on the inside, Anderson & Cushing or Jamison on the outside..
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Let's ignore the fact that Mario Williams, though he has the talent and physique, is unable to mentally handle moving to DT on passing downs... Meanwhile, A. Smith moves all over the place, depending on the situation, and is effective wherever he is placed....
let's talk stats. Who do you think is the better player?: Dwight Freeney or Robert Mathis?
Freeney, in 2006 and 2007, had a total of 9 sacks.
RMathis, in 2006 and 2007, had a total of 16.5 sacks.
Over a 4 year period (2005-2008),
Freeney = 30 sacks
Mathis = 39.5 sacks
Stats, of course, don't tell the whole story. Regardless, though, I did not say that Mario Williams is not any good. I'm saying that, if his poor effort is not due to some serious health issues, I'm not a fan of his because I appreciate and value effort when I watch football. I'm not sure why that is so contraversial.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Google "rotational motion", "physics", and "moment of inertia".
Each player is asked to do certain specific things on each play.
When he's instructed to rush the edge, that's what he's going to do.
silvrhand
All Pro
Each player is asked to do certain specific things on each play.
When he's instructed to rush the edge, that's what he's going to do.
Come on you know our stunts are hardly effective, I mean we might as well put roadmaps down to who is shooting what gap. We seem to never ever do an overload blitz..
As far as Mario setting the edge, setting the edge doesn't mean to ALWAYS speed rush, he can set the edge with a hard push upfield and spin, or get better leverage on the tackle and run him into the QB, also known as the bull rush..
I think Reggie White had one of the best upfield with the opposite hand throw that I've ever seen in football that was just ridiculous.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Are you contending Mario does not bull rush?
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Each player is asked to do certain specific things on each play.
When he's instructed to rush the edge, that's what he's going to do.
Do you know what those pointy things at the end of those lines represent? It represents opportunity for continuing motion in that direction. So, when Mario is assigned to rush the edge and meets a 240 lb one yard from the line of scrimmage and stops there, I am not satisfied that he has executed at a high level... crazy, I know.
Setting the edge is what the play side end (sometimes a LB, sometimes a DB, usually a DE) is supposed to do to get the runner to turn back into the middle of the formation where most of your defenders are supposed to be.
Has nothing to do with getting to the QB.