When will Connor Barwin turn the corner?

[GP]

GP thinks Mike Vick was a pretty good draft pick but Carson Palmer was a bad pick because he sat behind John Kitna his rookie season while Vick shared snaps with Chandler.

Leftwich= good pick
Rick Mirer= good pick

Drew Brees= Bad pick!

this is all according to GP!

Throw flares all you want, Dale. It doesn't make this missile veer from its course.

Connor Barwin is a slightly better "speculative" draft pick than Okoye was.

I know that all draft picks can be considered a gamble, but Connor Barwin is being willed to succeed by fans who think he can grow into his role. Just as Okoye was going to grow into his role, too.

I'm not hating, I'm just keeping it real.

This board loves an underdog, I'll give you guys that much!

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Check out the year Jairus Byrd is having from Buffalo.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=68036&draftyear=2009&genpos=CB

Not bad at all .

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Throw flares all you want, Dale. It doesn't make this missile veer from its course.

Connor Barwin is a slightly better "speculative" draft pick than Okoye was.

I know that all draft picks can be considered a gamble, but Connor Barwin is being willed to succeed by fans who think he can grow into his role. Just as Okoye was going to grow into his role, too.

I'm not hating, I'm just keeping it real.

This board loves an underdog, I'll give you guys that much!

Actually I try to will them all to succeed .

 

[dalemurphy]

Throw flares all you want, Dale. It doesn't make this missile veer from its course.

Connor Barwin is a slightly better "speculative" draft pick than Okoye was.

I know that all draft picks can be considered a gamble, but Connor Barwin is being willed to succeed by fans who think he can grow into his role. Just as Okoye was going to grow into his role, too.

I'm not hating, I'm just keeping it real.

This board loves an underdog, I'll give you guys that much!

You are deflecting the issue. I have no problem with you if you say that you are concerned whether he will develop into a good player for us in the next year or two. But, you are defining a good draft pick as a player who starts and plays well as a rookie. Clearly, you need to back off that statement or explain why those players I listed weren't good draft picks. Have enough intellectual integrity to do one or the other. By the way, there are plenty more examples, if you'd like them.

 

[Carr Bombed]

Throw flares all you want, Dale. It doesn't make this missile veer from its course.

Connor Barwin is a slightly better "speculative" draft pick than Okoye was.

I know that all draft picks can be considered a gamble, but Connor Barwin is being willed to succeed by fans who think he can grow into his role. Just as Okoye was going to grow into his role, too.

I'm not hating, I'm just keeping it real.

This board loves an underdog, I'll give you guys that much!

I agree with you on Barwin, that pick was a huge gamble....and if I had to take a guess right now. I'd say odds are better than he stays a situational pass rusher in a 4-3 (I actually think the guy would be a pretty good player in a 3-4) than the odds of him living up to that 2nd round draft pick...

However I don't understand your continued hate on Okoye, he IS growing/starting to realize his potential in this new scheme and has played alot better than years' past.

I think the Okoye pick might actually pay off after all....but I'd still LOVE to have Patrick Willis. Oh well, all this is hindsight.

 

[dalemurphy]

I agree with you on Barwin, that pick was a huge gamble....and if I had to take a guess right now. I'd say odds are better than he stays a situational pass rusher in a 4-3 (I actually think the guy would be a pretty good player in a 3-4) than the odds of him living up to that 2nd round draft pick...

However I don't understand your continued hate on Okoye, he IS growing/starting to realize his potential in this new scheme and has played alot better than years' past.

I think the Okoye pick might actually pay off after all....but I'd still LOVE to have Patrick Willis.

I actually agree with GP on Okoye. We are in year three and he has been abysmal for much of his career. Barwin provides this defense with a special skill and is already very good on ST. Barring serious injury, I don't see how he doesn't become a very productive role player at a vital and expensive position. Okoye's body of work suggests that he can occasionally get penetration on a pass play and occasionally get in the sight of a QB. I have seen some serious signs of improvement the past 4 weeks but he's already 1/2 through his contract and still isn't an asset for the team. I think Barwin is already an asset, though I do realize he's not a good player yet... does that make sense?

 

[GP]

Yeah, beating the division leading Bengals (have you noticed who they have beaten) and because of us second place 9'ers pales in comparison to the awesome Bills.

Yeah, and I noticed how the Jets were crowned after their first few games, as well. The Cowboys beat the Falcons. I guess the 'Boys are back on track, too?

Pollard helped us gain a better footing for stopping the run. But the d-line is stuck at the line of scrimmage, rarely getting to the QB before he makes whatever throw he wants to make.

So if we're good with hoping that the WR drops the ball, or runs a bad route, or falls down, or the QB mis-throws the pass, then I think our d-line is playing awesome and will look great.

Otherwise, at some point, someone is going to drop lots of bombs on us. I think the Bills game could end up surprising a lot of Texans fans.

That's just me, though.

 

[Lucky]

It'll never happen he's Jason Babin 2.0.

Babin had 63 tackles, 4 sacks, and 2 fumble recoveries as a rookie. So Barwin's not Jason Babin, just yet.

 

[NitroGSXR]

Sacks? I'd be happy with touching the QB once in awhile.

A glancing blow. A shove. Something that resembles contact.

49ers beat themselves. Cincy, to a degree, beat themselves. We don't scare any team's opposing o-line and/or QB. Teams will figure out that the way to beat us is through the air. The Cardinals game (1st half) and the 9ers game (second half) is the blueprint to beat us.

We clamped down on the run. What o-coord is going to blow us up for 59 points in the coming weeks? Colts, for starters. The Bills will be our toughest test since the Jets. Road game, two good RBs who catch out of the backfield really well, and a QB who has T.O. and Lee Evans. And nothing to lose.

I think we've touched them QBs plenty.

What about the Cardinals game, GP? I'm not really seeing your point here. Was that Pollard's first game as a Texan? Also, was Reeves getting his ears back around then? I'm sure I'm wrong somewhere but it's got to be around that time.

49ers? Putting in a brand new QB for the second half kind of wrecks the gameplanning a little bit. It's going to be a little far fetched to think that everyone else is going to switch to their backup after the half. We still held them when it counted. That's where I'm seeing a clicking going on with this defense that's never been there before.

I think our biggest problem up to now has been scoring critical points. We sputter in the red zone. We can't run. If getting into a shootout is the only way to beat us then I like it because we can hang with just about anyone in the NFL when it comes to the air. When it comes to that, it's pretty much a toss up.

If so, then I don't really call that much of a blueprint. We've got problems which is the norm and Connor Barwin sure isn't detrimental to those problems. He came to play football and he's getting better and better the wetter his feet become. Are there better players out there? I'm sure there are but that's not really the goal here. The goal is to become the best unit in the NFL and I think we're getting there this season. These last 4 games have been extremely telling.

Come playoff time, teams better be able to stop the run otherwise they'll be controlled on both sides of the ball (offense and defense). We're stopping them right now. No, we're shutting them the bleep down. Keep telling yourself that the Bengals and the 49ers beat themselves. That's really silly though. I'd like to think that we beat them. We may lose in Buffalo. We may get our butts waxed in Indianapolis but that doesn't change the fact that we beat the 49ers and the Bengals.

 

[TexanSacDawg]

The negativity surrounding this guy is suffocatingly stupid. Some expectations around here need some serious reeling in. I'm as optomistic as anyone (I think I put him down for 7 sacks on a poll) but if the best outcome possible isn't what happened please, don't just freak out instead. He plays more than some would think, contributes when he does and added something the team didn't have. For a 2nd round pick that's dynamite. No, it's not a nuclear bomb but we drafted that guy in the 1st!

Get real. 2nd round picks don't start on good teams. They contribute. Who is starting from this 2nd round that we could've had? Laraunitis is the only one I can think of and he was gone way before the texans pick.

well sean smith the corner was still available....

 

[GP]

You are deflecting the issue. I have no problem with you if you say that you are concerned whether he will develop into a good player for us in the next year or two. But, you are defining a good draft pick as a player who starts and plays well as a rookie. Clearly, you need to back off that statement or explain why those players I listed weren't good draft picks. Have enough intellectual integrity to do one or the other. By the way, there are plenty more examples, if you'd like them.

Well, Dale, I had a feeling you'd come back to that well for more water.

Teams make good picks and they make bad picks. Just as the Brees pick, or the Brady pick, or the Terrell Davis pick was a pick that was made very late and was "missed" by lots of teams...there are teams who make a pick several rounds too early, passing on other options for that guy who they think is going to get scooped up early. Connor Barwin is the pick made several rounds too early. Just as Jason Babin was, too.

Nobody has to wait and see what Brian Cushing will do next season.

I think this team screwed the pooch in rounds 2, 3 and 4. With one exception: I have more hope for James Casey than I have for the other three guys we drafted in 2, 3, and 4.

No team is immune from screwing up and reaching. Glover Quin seems to be the only drafted CB since Dunta who might end up sticking. I think he's doing more than 2nd rounder Connor Barwin.

But then again, I'm just really not sold on our d-line right now. Our LBs are off-the-chain. Our DBs are still sketchy, except their run support is getting much much better with each game.

Vernon Davis running that same route over the middle is stuck in my head. Alex Smith should not be standing up and throwing that pass with nobody touching him or making him throw off a back foot.

And the reason Mario struggled was because he was on a VERY broken team his rookie season. What's Connor Barwin's excuse? He's playing with Mario, Cushing, 'Meco, and a somewhat better-performing defense than the joke of a defense that Mario inherited.

 

[NitroGSXR]

Well, Dale, I had a feeling you'd come back to that well for more water.

Teams make good picks and they make bad picks. Just as the Brees pick, or the Brady pick, or the Terrell Davis pick was a pick that was made very late and was "missed" by lots of teams...there are teams who make a pick several rounds too early, passing on other options for that guy who they think is going to get scooped up early. Connor Barwin is the pick made several rounds too early. Just as Jason Babin was, too.

Nobody has to wait and see what Brian Cushing will do next season.

I think this team screwed the pooch in rounds 2, 3 and 4. With one exception: I have more hope for James Casey than I have for the other three guys we drafted in 2, 3, and 4.

No team is immune from screwing up and reaching. Glover Quin seems to be the only drafted CB since Dunta who might end up sticking. I think he's doing more than 2nd rounder Connor Barwin.

But then again, I'm just really not sold on our d-line right now. Our LBs are off-the-chain. Our DBs are still sketchy, except their run support is getting much much better with each game.

Vernon Davis running that same route over the middle is stuck in my head. Alex Smith should not be standing up and throwing that pass with nobody touching him or making him throw off a back foot.

And the reason Mario struggled was because he was on a VERY broken team his rookie season. What's Connor Barwin's excuse? He's playing with Mario, Cushing, 'Meco, and a somewhat better-performing defense than the joke of a defense that Mario inherited.

I really don't like the excuse question but I'll try to give my thoughts on it. I think Barwin's excuse is that he's only played on the line for less than two years now. I think you once compared him to have the potential of Kyle Vanden Bosch in terms of him always being the one who makes the QB throw just a second earlier yet never getting the sack.

I think I'm going to give Barwin a couple seasons more before writing him off. It's only fair that we give him the same amount of time we gave Mario and Okoye. For what its worth... being selected #10 overall as opposed to being selected in the middle of the second round is a tremendous difference in value. After 6 games, I'm not ready to make a determination on him and his value to the team. Let's see how he turns out.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

I really don't like the excuse question but I'll try to give my thoughts on it. I think Barwin's excuse is that he's only played on the line for less than two years now. I think you once compared him to have the potential of Kyle Vanden Bosch in terms of him always being the one who makes the QB throw just a second earlier yet never getting the sack.

I think I'm going to give Barwin a couple seasons more before writing him off. It's only fair that we give him the same amount of time we gave Mario and Okoye. For what its worth... being selected #10 overall as opposed to being selected in the middle of the second round is a tremendous difference in value.

Barwin also played basketball for two years and didn't hit the weights . He may be a gamble but an elite pass rusher is hard to find and takes time to develop .

 

[Carr Bombed]

I actually agree with GP on Okoye. We are in year three and he has been abysmal for much of his career. Barwin provides this defense with a special skill and is already very good on ST. Barring serious injury, I don't see how he doesn't become a very productive role player at a vital and expensive position. Okoye's body of work suggests that he can occasionally get penetration on a pass play and occasionally get in the sight of a QB. I have seen some serious signs of improvement the past 4 weeks but he's already 1/2 through his contract and still isn't an asset for the team. I think Barwin is already an asset, though I do realize he's not a good player yet... does that make sense?

Okoye has been a different player in this new scheme........he's already matched the production he put up all of last year. The read and react scheme didn't fit him at all. Sorry, but I'm not going to hold a player responsible for simply being put in a position that he'll struggle to succeed in. The guy needs to be uses his quickness and get off the ball.....last year that wasn't the scheme. People just judge him off his pass failures in a bad scheme that didn't fit his game. Also I can't see how people can hold it against him for not coming in right away and lighting it up with bringing up how he's half way through his contract. It was known on draft day whoever took him, it was going to take longer than normal for him to mature, because he was 19. (at a position where it usually already takes a few years).

Fault the team for drafting him where he was taken and then sticking him in a position where he would fail instead of using few of the strengths that he does have.

As far as Barwin, the guy was drafted in the 2nd round.....he wasn't picked to just be a ST player. I understand the situational pass rush thing, but it's not like he's been going gangbusters there either. He does have 1 sack, but it's not like he's getting other pressures as well. This is not to say he won't become a every down DE (which if he never does, the pick is a failure...he can't stay a situational pass rusher and a STer forever with that investment.)

Both players were projects, which means they shouldn't of been drafted where they were to begin with. Which is the biggest black eye right now with Smith right now...he has drafted two project players with HIGH DRAFT PICKS (one with a top 10 pick and the other with a mid 2nd round pick), but atleast Okoye was 19 and still young. Barwin is already 23 and by the time he's ready to contribute as a every down DE he'll probably be near the end of his contract. (unlike Okoye who's already contributing right now in his 3rd year and is only 22..the age of most rookies) My biggest gripe with the pick was why the hell do you spend big bucks in FA for what you believe is your answer at DE, then draft a project in the 2nd round. That 2nd round pick could've been used elsewhere.....we SHOULD have another starter somewhere on the team with that pick. That point can't even be argued. We aren't the Steelers here.....this team DOES have holes and we can't wait years on high picks to come to develop into starters.

 

[Jackie Chiles]

Osi Umenyiora had 1 sack in his first season with the Giants playing sparingly alongside Strahan and co. He was a mid 2nd round pick with similar athleticism. Followed that year with 7 sacks and then busted out with 14.5 in year three. Another Giant, Justin Tuck, had 1 total sack his first two combined. Vanden Bosch has also been mentioned already in this thread. He had 4 sacks in his first three seasons before getting 12 in his fourth. Out of these guys Barwin resembles Osi the most imo. Very similar size and athleticism, both quite raw coming out of college. There is absolutely no guarantee he winds up being nearly that good but I have no problem spending a 2nd round pick on him because pass rushers are just worth their weight in gold. With his work ethic and tools I am still very optimistic about his future.

 

[TexCanada]

My biggest gripe with the pick was why the hell do you spend big bucks in FA for what you believe is your answer at DE, then draft a project in the 2nd round. That 2nd round pick could've been used elsewhere.....we SHOULD have another starter somewhere on the team with that pick. That point can't even be argued. We aren't the Steelers here.....this team DOES have holes.

I'm not going to argue that I love the Barwin pick, in fact I agree that we should have tried to fix another hole, but aren't you kind of answering your own question here? We drafted a project DE for the future, and signed a FA for the now.

 

[dalemurphy]

Well, Dale, I had a feeling you'd come back to that well for more water.

Teams make good picks and they make bad picks. Just as the Brees pick, or the Brady pick, or the Terrell Davis pick was a pick that was made very late and was "missed" by lots of teams...there are teams who make a pick several rounds too early, passing on other options for that guy who they think is going to get scooped up early. Connor Barwin is the pick made several rounds too early. Just as Jason Babin was, too.

Nobody has to wait and see what Brian Cushing will do next season.

I think this team screwed the pooch in rounds 2, 3 and 4. With one exception: I have more hope for James Casey than I have for the other three guys we drafted in 2, 3, and 4.

No team is immune from screwing up and reaching. Glover Quin seems to be the only drafted CB since Dunta who might end up sticking. I think he's doing more than 2nd rounder Connor Barwin.

But then again, I'm just really not sold on our d-line right now. Our LBs are off-the-chain. Our DBs are still sketchy, except their run support is getting much much better with each game.

Vernon Davis running that same route over the middle is stuck in my head. Alex Smith should not be standing up and throwing that pass with nobody touching him or making him throw off a back foot.

And the reason Mario struggled was because he was on a VERY broken team his rookie season. What's Connor Barwin's excuse? He's playing with Mario, Cushing, 'Meco, and a somewhat better-performing defense than the joke of a defense that Mario inherited.

First of all, Brees was the 33rd pick of the draft. That's 13 or 14 spots ahead of Barwin.

Second, answer the question!!... are these guys (1st and 2nd round picks) bad draft picks since they all struggled and/or didn't start as rookies?:

Drew Brees
Carson Palmer
Troy Polamalu
Mario Williams (he struggled because he didn't know what the heck he was doing)
T. Holt
Albert Haynesworth
A. Rodgers
L. Timmons
Antrel Rolle
Steve Smith (Wr NYG)
Eli Manning
Osi Umenyiora
Deangelo Williams
Phillip Rivers


that's just a quick list off the top of my head of some early round picks that, according to your criteria, are bad picks.

 

[Carr Bombed]

I'm not going to argue that I love the Barwin pick, in fact I agree that we should have tried to fix another hole, but aren't you kind of answering your own question here? We drafted a project DE for the future, and signed a FA for the now.

The problem is with this team trying to get over a hump, the coaching staff might not be around to see the final product....if he ever even reaches "final product status".

A 2nd round Offensive lineman, back, or safety could've helped us right off the bat.

 

[TexCanada]

The problem is with this team trying to get over a hump, the coaching staff might not be around to see the final product....if he ever even reaches "final product status".

A 2nd round Offensive lineman, back, or safety could've helped us right off the bat.

Thats not a huge problem for me, I really don't care what coaching staff we have as long as we are winning, and I would rather draft a guy with a lot of potential then just a warm body that will fill a hole for now.

 

[swtbound07]

the question is, is connor barwin not playing because the coaching staff is developing him, or because he can't beat out the players around him for time?

And if you answer A, when have we ever "developed" a player with any degree of success? If you don't come into houston and light the world on fire, you generally don't succeed. You can say Mario, but plantar fascitis slowed him down, and they didn't try to develop him. They let him play. Same with Okoye. I've seen nothing to believe Barwin is talented enough to warrant playing time.

 

[dalemurphy]

The problem is with this team trying to get over a hump, the coaching staff might not be around to see the final product....if he ever even reaches "final product status".

A 2nd round Offensive lineman, back, or safety could've helped us right off the bat.

I don't want my organization drafting in the second round with the first priority being : immediate impact or self-preservation. I would hope the organization on draft day has a 3-5 year perspective. High 1st round picks almost have to contribute because of salary cap ramifications. Barwin counts about $1 million per year on the cap. It's very different. 6 games into a rookie season seems just a tad premature to criticize the draft pick of a DE who has "only one sack" and a number of tackles and ST contribution. Maybe I'm crazy!

 

[dalemurphy]

the question is, is connor barwin not playing because the coaching staff is developing him, or because he can't beat out the players around him for time?

And if you answer A, when have we ever "developed" a player with any degree of success? If you don't come into houston and light the world on fire, you generally don't succeed. You can say Mario, but plantar fascitis slowed him down, and they didn't try to develop him. They let him play. Same with Okoye. I've seen nothing to believe Barwin is talented enough to warrant playing time.

Well, my guess is if it was 2006, Barwin would be playing more. Unfortunately for him, at least in your eyes, the Texans' have more talent now. Therefore, he sucks? He's getting playing time and practice time. Why can't they be "developing him" and also realize that perhaps Antonio Smith is a better DE on 1st and 10 or 3rd and 1 than Barwin right now?

 

[Carr Bombed]

I don't want my organization drafting in the second round with the first priority being : immediate impact or self-preservation. I would hope the organization on draft day has a 3-5 year perspective. High 1st round picks almost have to contribute because of salary cap ramifications. Barwin counts about $1 million per year on the cap. It's very different. 6 games into a rookie season seems just a tad premature to criticize the draft pick of a DE who has "only one sack" and a number of tackles and ST contribution. Maybe I'm crazy!

Well I want my team drafting the most "NFL ready prospect" who can start day 1 in the first couple of rounds... Picks that you have a 3-5 year perspective on should be later rounds (outside of the QB position and Barwin in not a QB).

So basically everybody agrees he isn't close to being a every down starter at DE.....well then why was he a 2nd rounder? That kind of drafting philosophy usually doesn't work out well. Successful teams don't spend top 10 and mid 2nd round picks on projects. They grab NFL STARTERS with those picks if they can.

 

[dalemurphy]

Well I want my team drafting the most "NFL ready prospect" who can start day 1 in the first couple of rounds... Picks that you have a 3-5 year perspective on should be later rounds (outside of the QB position and Barwin in not a QB).

So basically everybody agrees he isn't close to being a every down starter at DE.....well then why was he a 2nd rounder? That kind of drafting philosophy usually doesn't work out well. Successful teams don't spend top 10 and mid 2nd round picks on prospects. They grab NFL STARTERS with those picks if they can.

Refer to my list! Troy Polamalu was a 2nd round pick who played very little as a rookie. Pittsburgh, as a rule, tends to sit their draft picks for their rookie seasons.

the answer to your question, "if everybody agrees he isn't close to being an every down starter at DE... well then why was he a 2nd rounder?"..

clearly, because the team doesn't with you that the 1st priority in a 2nd round pick is his ability to immediately start.

Can't you'll at least acknowledge that it is a legitimate to have a different philosophy and that it is reasonable to expect a year of development before a 2nd rounder controls a spot in the starting lineup? You don't have to even agree with it... just acknowledge that it's a valid philosophy.

 

[Carr Bombed]

Refer to my list! Troy Polamalu was a 2nd round pick who played very little as a rookie. Pittsburgh, as a rule, tends to sit their draft picks for their rookie seasons.

the answer to your question, "if everybody agrees he isn't close to being an every down starter at DE... well then why was he a 2nd rounder?"..

clearly, because the team doesn't with you that the 1st priority in a 2nd round pick is his ability to immediately start.

Can't you'll at least acknowledge that it is a legitimate to have a different philosophy and that it is reasonable to expect a year of development before a 2nd rounder controls a spot in the starting lineup? You don't have to even agree with it... just acknowledge that it's a valid philosophy.

The Troy Polamalu comparison isn't really much of a comparison at all. Troy Polamalu started multiple seasons at safety for USC (and back when USC was every bit of the hype and not overrated by the media like they tend to be from time to time)...He was a HIGHLY sought after S prospect, not looked as a "tweener". The Steelers were in love with him going into that draft, but never expected him to be anywhere close to where they ended up getting him. (You also failed to mention how due to a hamstring injury he wasn't even able to perform at the combine which was one of the reasons why he fell further than where he ended up getting drafted......where would Barwin be without the combine?)

Anways the Chargers didn't draft him and the Steelers felt they had to move up and get him. They pulled off a big trade (that involved Larry Johnson and Brooks Bollinger) and moved 11 spots, up from 27th to draft him 16th ovrl.

The fact that the Steelers could wait a year for him to transition to NFL speed was because they already had a very solid secondary and already had Chris Hope at one of the safety spots. If you remember, I said earlier...we aren't the Steelers, but it doesn't matter, because Troy Polamalu situation isn't comparable to Connor Barwin. Nobody doubted what position Polamalu was going to play..(Polamalu is the only safety Pittsburgh has every drafted in the 1st round)...people didn't even fully know what defense Barwin was going to play in....he was a tweener project.

I think the misconnection here is you expect Barwin to be our everydown DE next year........I don't think that's going to happen, I think the kid is extremely raw and it's going to take ALOT more work, which is why I didn't like the pick at all.

 

[TimeKiller]

well sean smith the corner was still available....

An acceptable answer and a guy I wouldn't have minded drafting.

He and VDavis are still not starting correct? I heard they split time, if that's true then neither of the 1st or 2nd round picks of the draft genius Parcells are starting.

Also, Sean Smith has about 15 less tackles and only 4 more passes defended than Glover Quin, our 4th round pick.

 

[dalemurphy]

The Troy Polamalu comparison isn't really much of a comparison at all. Troy Polamalu started multiple seasons at safety for USC (and back when USC was every bit of the hype and not overrated by the media like they tend to be from time to time)...He was a HIGHLY sought after S prospect, not looked as a "tweener". The Steelers were in love with him going into that draft, but never expected him to be anywhere close to where they ended up getting him. (You also failed to mention how due to a hamstring injury he wasn't even able to perform at the combine which was one of the reasons why he fell further than where he ended up getting drafted......where would Barwin be without the combine?)

Anways the Chargers didn't draft him and the Steelers felt they had to move up and get him. They pulled off a big trade (that involved Larry Johnson and Brooks Bollinger) and moved 11 spots, up from 27th to draft him 16th ovrl.

The fact that the Steelers could wait a year for him to transition to NFL speed was because they already had a very solid secondary and already had Chris Hope at one of the safety spots. If you remember, I said earlier...we aren't the Steelers, but it doesn't matter, because Troy Polamalu situation isn't comparable to Connor Barwin. Nobody doubted what position Polamalu was going to play..(Polamalu is the only safety Pittsburgh has every drafted in the 1st round)...people didn't even fully know what defense Barwin was going to play in....he was a tweener project.

I think the misconnection here is you expect Barwin to be our everydown DE next year........I don't think that's going to happen, I think the kid is extremely raw and it's going to take ALOT more work, which is why I didn't like the pick at all.

You guys keep layering in other factors. Now apparently, it's valid to sit your early round rookie if: he started multiple seasons at safety and if the pre-draft projections had him being drafted higher than he was. Also, apparently, it's better to trade up for a prospect and sit him?

No, the misconnection is that you can't condemn a pick because he doesn't start as a rookie and you and GP continue to defend that position...

If you want to complain about the pick for the same reasons you did in April... fine! but, don't use the fact that he's playing about 1/3 of the defensive snaps through 6 games of his rookie season in order to prove your point.

 

[GP]

Refer to my list! Troy Polamalu was a 2nd round pick who played very little as a rookie. Pittsburgh, as a rule, tends to sit their draft picks for their rookie seasons.
the answer to your question, "if everybody agrees he isn't close to being an every down starter at DE... well then why was he a 2nd rounder?"..

clearly, because the team doesn't with you that the 1st priority in a 2nd round pick is his ability to immediately start.

Can't you'll at least acknowledge that it is a legitimate to have a different philosophy and that it is reasonable to expect a year of development before a 2nd rounder controls a spot in the starting lineup? You don't have to even agree with it... just acknowledge that it's a valid philosophy.

That rule doesn't apply here, Dale.

This isn't Pittsburgh. Our team does not have the luxury of sitting 2nd rounders their rookie year. That's making an apples-to-oranges comparison, IMO.

If Pittsburgh had bombed out every season for 4 or 5 years in a row, they wouldn't be sitting 2nd rounders. They'd be playing them. because they most likely would have been in the same situation we were/are in: Needing talent out on the field, fast.

I do dream of the day, however, when we are sitting rookies. That's a luxury that I'd like us to attain.

 

[dalemurphy]

That rule doesn't apply here, Dale.

This isn't Pittsburgh. Our team does not have the luxury of sitting 2nd rounders their rookie year. That's making an apples-to-oranges comparison, IMO.

If Pittsburgh had bombed out every season for 4 or 5 years in a row, they wouldn't be sitting 2nd rounders. They'd be playing them. because they most likely would have been in the same situation we were/are in: Needing talent out on the field, fast.

I do dream of the day, however, when we are sitting rookies. That's a luxury that I'd like us to attain.

Well, you're living it! We're about to be 5-3 without our 2nd round pick starting. And, we are getting the best DL performance in our 8 year history.

 

[Carr Bombed]

You guys keep layering in other factors. Now apparently, it's valid to sit your early round rookie if: he started multiple seasons at safety and if the pre-draft projections had him being drafted higher than he was. Also, apparently, it's better to trade up for a prospect and sit him?

No, the misconnection is that you can't condemn a pick because he doesn't start as a rookie and you and GP continue to defend that position...

If you want to complain about the pick for the same reasons you did in April... fine! but, don't use the fact that he's playing about 1/3 of the defensive snaps through 6 games of his rookie season in order to prove your point.

I'm not comdeming the pick because he doesn't start.........I was against the pick, because he was a project selected in the 2nd round and he probably isn't even going to start next year. I just don't agree with drafting those kind of players in the second round...

and again the only reason why Polamalu sat his rookie year was because the Steelers HAD good safeties already, not because Palumalo was veiwed as a raw player who still needed to learn the ins and outs of the position that he was drafted to play. The Steelers are a team that usually has great depth where they can afford to let players grow into starters. We don't have that kind of depth at multiple positions on this team, which is why many people feel we could've gotten a player who could start on this team right away in the 2nd round.

 

[TimeKiller]

We don't have that kind of depth at multiple positions on this team, which is why many people feel we could've gotten a player who could start on this team right away in the 2nd round.

Name the player you feel would be starting and making a big difference like you guys expect! Does he exist?!?

 

[dalemurphy]

I'm not comdeming the pick because he doesn't start.........I was against the pick, because he was a project selected in the 2nd round and he probably isn't even going to start next year. I just don't agree with drafting those kind of players in the second round...

and again the only reason why Polamalu sat his rookie year was because the Steelers HAD good safeties already, not because Palumalo was veiwed as a raw player who still needed to learn the ins and outs of the position that he was drafted to play. The Steelers are a team that usually has great depth where they can afford to let players grow into starters. We don't have that kind of depth at multiple positions on this team, which is why many people feel we could've gotten a player who could start on this team right away in the 2nd round.

Well, we have Mario Williams playing Barwin's position on run downs. Don't you think Mario is a good DE. ASmith plays LDE on run downs. Don't you think A.Smith is a good strong side DE on run downs?

On passing downs, Barwin usually enters the game. so, again, I'm not getting your point. You're so anxious to be right about the pick that you can't even wait for him to play a season before criticizing him. It seems to me that Kubiak and R. Smith seem to have a pretty good grip on building this team with youth. He's played 6 freakin' games since he was drafted! Give the guy a chance to fail, at least.

 

[dalemurphy]

Name the player you feel would be starting and making a big difference like you guys expect! Does he exist?!?

some fans are insufferable whiners! This year's 1st, 3rd, 4th rounders are all starting for this organization's best team, and the 2nd and 5th round picks are making weekly contributions.

meanwhile, last year's late first rounder is starting and playing well at LT while the 3rd rounder should have been AFC offensive rookie of the year last year.

then, we've got a 6th rounder from '07 starting at guard, a 3rd rounder from '07 making plays all over the freakin' place, the '07 1st rounder starting to play solid ball at DT and starting... not to mention that we traded 2nd round picks in '07 and '08 to get a young QB who is putting up amazing numbers this year.

And, I didn't even mention the amazing '06 draft or an impressive list of young, cheap FAs collected the past few seasons:

Reeves,
EWilson
Briesel
S. Cody
Bulman
CMyers *6th rd trade
KWalter *7th rd trade
etc..


But, damn those Texans... Connor Barwin isn't starting yet and his rookie season is almost half over!! Man, I wish GP and Car Bomber were making more of the personnel decisions for this organization.

 

[Carr Bombed]

Well, we have Mario Williams playing Barwin's position on run downs. Don't you think Mario is a good DE. ASmith plays LDE on run downs. Don't you think A.Smith is a good strong side DE on run downs?

On passing downs, Barwin usually enters the game. so, again, I'm not getting your point. You're so anxious to be right about the pick that you can't even wait for him to play a season before criticizing him. It seems to me that Kubiak and R. Smith seem to have a pretty good grip on building this team with youth. He's played 6 freakin' games since he was drafted! Give the guy a chance to fail, at least.

I think there's a comprehension problem here. I've said MULTIPLE times my biggest problem with Barwin is he's a second round project/tweener who still has a ton of learning and growing to do....I'm not "trying to be right about the pick". I'm trying to get my point across and you keep on trying to compare Barwin to players like Troy Polamalu or Houston to the Steelers. Neither of those situations or teams are remotely comparable.

As far as "He's only played 6 freakin games since he was drafted!....give the guy a chance to fail".

Umm.....who the hell said I wanted this guy to fail or I'm rooting about it? I would love nothing more for this guy to become a great pass rusher, I just don't see that happening anytime soon. The learning curve is too great with him and he's raw as raw can get......which is the whole reason why I didn't like him as a 2nd round pick. He could've used NFL ready/every down starters at other positions.

 

[Carr Bombed]

Name the player you feel would be starting and making a big difference like you guys expect! Does he exist?!?

I'm not going to scour the entire draft and cherry pick other players taken in that round and then try to project how they would do on our team in our system...that's a waste of time.

It's just a philosophy thing. I don't think a team that has never had a winning season should be spending 2nd round picks on project players when they lack depth at multiple positions. Our team doesn't have the depth or quality starters at multiple positions where we can afford to be spending high picks in the draft on high risk players like that...that is all.

 

[Carr Bombed]

some fans are insufferable whiners! I wish GP and Car Bomber were making more of the personnel decisions for this organization.

Give me a freaking break...so this is what you do when other people have a difference of opinion? Yeah, you're right....we should all just bow to the opinion of dalemurphy. Nobody can ever be critical or second guess ANY decision the team makes, because that would just make us "insufferable whiners". That's cheap.

What's the point of this board anyways...Hook'em needs to shut it down, because people don't agree with every decision made under the sun and that kind of insubordination is untolerated.


Newsflash, people aren't going to agree about everything on this board, we have different opinions....OH NOES!

 

[dalemurphy]

I'm not going to scour the entire draft and cherry pick other players taken in that round and then try to project how they would do on our team in our system...that's a waste of time.

It's just a philosophy thing. I don't think a team that has never had a winning season should be spending 2nd round picks on project players when they lack depth at multiple positions. Our team doesn't have the depth or quality starters at multiple positions where we can afford to be spending high picks in the draft on high risk players like that...that is all.

The fact that he may take awhile to develop into an everydown NFL DE doesn't neccessarily make him higher risk than any other 2nd rounder. I think his motor and athleticism make him a fairly low risk 2nd round pick. He doesn't look any more raw to me than Mario did as a rookie. He just has 30 lbs less muscle.

 

[dalemurphy]

Give me a freaking break...so this is what you do when other people have a difference of opinion? Yeah, you're right....we should all just bow to the opinion of dalemurphy. Nobody can ever be critical or second guess ANY decision the team makes, because that would just make us "insufferable whiners". That's cheap.

What's the point of this board anyways...Hook'em needs to shut it down, because people don't agree with every decision made under the sun and that kind of insubordination is untolerated.


Newsflash, people aren't going to agree about everything on this board, we have different opinions....OH NOES!

As I've said multiple times, go ahead and disagree. You are the one that won't acknowledge another perspective (the Texans, in this case) is valid. I've said a number of times that perhaps Barwin will end up a poor pick. You, however, have refused to back off your silly assertion that the fact that he isn't starting is evidence that he was a bad pick. Even though I have given endless examples of teams who draft players in the early rounds that sit or need time to develop, you won't acknowledge that it is a reasonable way to handle Barwin... Of course, he could start. But, they like the rotation better. And, by the way, it's working. I'm simply arguing that the pick can't be fairly judged for at least another year.

 

[Carr Bombed]

As I've said multiple times, go ahead and disagree. You are the one that won't acknowledge another perspective (the Texans, in this case) is valid. I've said a number of times that perhaps Barwin will end up a poor pick. You, however, have refused to back off your silly assertion that the fact that he isn't starting is evidence that he was a bad pick. Even though I have given endless examples of teams who draft players in the early rounds that sit or need time to develop, you won't acknowledge that it is a reasonable way to handle Barwin... Of course, he could start. But, they like the rotation better. And, by the way, it's working. I'm simply arguing that the pick can't be fairly judged for at least another year.

LMAO...you're the one who isn't accepting other people's opinions here or willing to listen to another perspective. You say you do, but then you make posts like the one above. Every time someone has made a post in this thread that doesn't agree with yours, you either bring up some player/team that isn't remotely comparable to the Barwin situation or you just made some smart ass comment.

Also I never said Barwin was going to be a bust or said he was going to fail, he could very well turn out to be a good player in this league EVENTUALLY, but that's not the issue here. That was never my issue with the pick. This team has never had a winning season..(Newsflash, we're not the Steelers)...I simply would've liked the team to try to acquire some talent to help us sooner. As I don't think Barwin is going to see a much more increased role next year. It could be 3 years before he's finally ready to be a solid every down player in this league.....shoot me if I believe you shouldn't be spending second round picks on players like that when you have other immediate positions to fill.

 

[GP]

Give me a freaking break...so this is what you do when other people have a difference of opinion? Yeah, you're right....we should all just bow to the opinion of dalemurphy. Nobody can ever be critical or second guess ANY decision the team makes, because that would just make us "insufferable whiners". That's cheap.

What's the point of this board anyways...Hook'em needs to shut it down, because people don't agree with every decision made under the sun and that kind of insubordination is untolerated.


Newsflash, people aren't going to agree about everything on this board, we have different opinions....OH NOES!

He has a short memory, too, at least when it comes to how he treats posters. I am a little shocked at how animated he's become over this, and the personal attacks he's throwing down on us.

I've had lots of good conversations with Dale in the past. I've replied favorably to lots of his posts. I like to read his posts.

Of course, I go and disagree with him on this issue and....well, he thinks all manner of things about me now.

Dale, chill out. It's freaking Connor Barwin for crying out loud. LOL.

 

[ReliantTexan]

To be honest, I'm not sure what other second rounder we could have taken who would come in and actually fill a position of need. If we had drafted saftey help or even another guard etc, would they be doing any better than the players we have there now? I doubt it.

 

[steelbtexan]

some fans are insufferable whiners! This year's 1st, 3rd, 4th rounders are all starting for this organization's best team, and the 2nd and 5th round picks are making weekly contributions.

meanwhile, last year's late first rounder is starting and playing well at LT while the 3rd rounder should have been AFC offensive rookie of the year last year.

then, we've got a 6th rounder from '07 starting at guard, a 3rd rounder from '07 making plays all over the freakin' place, the '07 1st rounder starting to play solid ball at DT and starting... not to mention that we traded 2nd round picks in '07 and '08 to get a young QB who is putting up amazing numbers this year.

And, I didn't even mention the amazing '06 draft or an impressive list of young, cheap FAs collected the past few seasons:

Reeves,
EWilson
Briesel
S. Cody
Bulman
CMyers *6th rd trade
KWalter *7th rd trade
etc..


But, damn those Texans... Connor Barwin isn't starting yet and his rookie season is almost half over!! Man, I wish GP and Car Bomber were making more of the personnel decisions for this organization.

It looks like the FO has done a good job aquiring talent.

CB I get what you're saying. I'm impatient too but I think with a year and an offseason under his belt you will be glad they took Barwin. He has only plaed defense for 2 years. He has got the ability and work ethic to be great.

I had Barwin down for 8 sacks this year but with Mario hurt I believe he will get 5 sacks. Remember the Rams,Seahwks and Bills are coming uon the schedule.

I am calling my shot now. Barwin will get 1-2 sacks this Sunday against the Bills.

 

[steelbtexan]

By the way for all of the William Moore bandwagoners out there

He was put on IR this week.

 

[NitroGSXR]

I noticed Connor Barwin dropping back into coverage quite a bit during the 49er game. At one point he was so deep that he was further behind both Wilson and Pollard, 30 yards or so from the line of scrimmage. It confused me a bit. Once okay but several times and now I'm a bit perplexed at how exactly are they using him?

Anyone else notice that or am I imagining it?

 

[steelbtexan]

I noticed Connor Barwin dropping back into coverage quite a bit during the 49er game. At one point he was so deep that he was further behind both Wilson and Pollard, 30 yards or so from the line of scrimmage. It confused me a bit. Once okay but several times and now I'm a bit perplexed at how exactly are they using him?

Anyone else notice that or am I imagining it?

They're using him like they used Weaver last year. The difference is that Barwin runs a 4.5 40 and can drop into coverage alot deeper than Weaver who probably runs a 5.0 on a good day.

Barwins atheletisim allows allows him to drop into coverage and Cushing to blitz off the edge. This is a good thing. I noticed them dropping Barwin into coverage against Cincy some too.

Isn't it great that the atheletes Smithiak drafted this year gives the defense versatility that they haven't had since their inception?

 

[NitroGSXR]

They're using him like they used Weaver last year. The difference is that Barwin runs a 4.5 40 and can drop into coverage alot deeper than Weaver who probably runs a 5.0 on a good day.

Barwins atheletisim allows allows him to drop into coverage and Cushing to blitz off the edge. This is a good thing. I noticed them dropping Barwin into coverage against Cincy some too.

Isn't it great that the atheletes Smithiak drafted this year gives the defense versatility that they haven't had since their inception?

See... this is where I start to get confused. Are we using him as a pass rusher or not? I thought that Barwin was to be our situational pass rusher on primarily third downs. Now I'm seeing him on deep coverages. I can understand a DE playing LB coverage duties but way back deep? That's a new one for me.

 

[dalemurphy]

See... this is where I start to get confused. Are we using him as a pass rusher or not? I thought that Barwin was to be our situational pass rusher on primarily third downs. Now I'm seeing him on deep coverages. I can understand a DE playing LB coverage duties but way back deep? That's a new one for me.

It's called zone blitzing. The concept is that a DE takes the attention of the tackle, pre-snap. Then, at the snap, the DE backs off into coverage and the LB blitzing. Hopefully, the LB is untouched because the tackle is expecting to lockup the DE... meanwhile, the DE fills the passing lane left occupied by the LB. In theory and often in practice, these plays lead to a lot of sacks and interceptions.

For instance, the JHarrison 100TD int. return in the Superbowl was essentially this same concept. Although, in a 3-4 defense, Harrison is considered a LB. But, in reality, the same thing happened. The tackle was focused on blocking Harrison and Warner was expecting Harrison to rush... Warner got pressure from the blitzer and Harrison stepped in the passing lane (to Warner's surprise. He assumed he'd already be in the offensive backfield trying to sack him) and picked the ball off.

 

[steelbtexan]

See... this is where I start to get confused. Are we using him as a pass rusher or not? I thought that Barwin was to be our situational pass rusher on primarily third downs. Now I'm seeing him on deep coverages. I can understand a DE playing LB coverage duties but way back deep? That's a new one for me.

They are almost always rushing 4-5 guys.

If Barwin drops into coverage you can bet Cushing and/or Pollard will be blitzing.

They only play this defense 4-5 times a game at the most.

 

[NitroGSXR]

They are almost always rushing 4-5 guys.

If Barwin drops into coverage you can bet Cushing and/or Pollard will be blitzing.

They only play this defense 4-5 times a game at the most.

But we got Barwin to do the blitzing. See? That's my issue.

 

[NitroGSXR]

It's called zone blitzing. The concept is that a DE takes the attention of the tackle, pre-snap. Then, at the snap, the DE backs off into coverage and the LB blitzing. Hopefully, the LB is untouched because the tackle is expecting to lockup the DE... meanwhile, the DE fills the passing lane left occupied by the LB. In theory and often in practice, these plays lead to a lot of sacks and interceptions.

For instance, the JHarrison 100TD int. return in the Superbowl was essentially this same concept. Although, in a 3-4 defense, Harrison is considered a LB. But, in reality, the same thing happened. The tackle was focused on blocking Harrison and Warner was expecting Harrison to rush... Warner got pressure from the blitzer and Harrison stepped in the passing lane (to Warner's surprise. He assumed he'd already be in the offensive backfield trying to sack him) and picked the ball off.

Sounds a little complex but I can understand it. I kinda wish we'd blitz with Barwin a little more. I didn't like seeing him line up at LB and drop back into a safety coverage mode.