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Owen Daniels/Texans playing "contract chicken"'

edo783 said:
That's my concern also. IMO, the offers to both Dunta and OD seem more than a bit out of whack for the level of the player and would have very negative effects on our cap when it comes to signing the likes of Mario, because he WILL get paid and some very serious coin at that. If we suck out dollars from our cap for a couple of medium level players we may not be able to secure the real stars like AJ and Mario and any others that pop up when the time comes.
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So just two people have answered (thanks!) and both think Smith is offering too much money to the hold-outs in his first two challenging negotiations. If true, that doesn't bode well for the future.

I choose to think that Dunta was never offered that huge guaranteed money, that Daniels wouldn't be over compensated with the deal that is on the table, and therefore Smith isn't all that bad.
 
HOU-TEX said:
I don't think they're that better than OD. They've just been doing it longer and have been consistantly good. OD's getting there and I hope both parties can come to an agreement so he can remain a Texan for a long time.

Shockey doesn't deserve to be mentioned with elite TE's.
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I guess where I come out on OD is this....he's a damn good TE but he hasn't done anything to warrant the top pay in the league. He doesn't block as well as Cooley, Witten, and Shockey and he isn't the pass-catcher that Gates is.
 
I think Demeco has his investment guru on standby for his contract making him the #2 paid LB in NFL.
 
Runner said:
This is a question for the group. Many people think that OD isn't worth near the money being offered. Many in the same group think "Smithiak" don't make mistakes in this area. Which is right? Daniels is not worth it or Smith is throwing money away with that offer?
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Some positions are of a universilly high value thru out the NFL like QB, OLT, and edge-rushers (be they 3-4 OLB or 4-3 DEs). For examples look at what the Texans paid (in draft picks or FA compensation) to the players they have at those positions.
On the other hand, some positions have a relative or variable value that is team-system dependant. The Texans presently have a 3rd and 4th round pick invested in their starters at RB & TE respectively.
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
The funny thing is if we were New England , we'd be called frugal and managing our cap . Since we're the Texans , we are cheap or dumb .
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It's disingenuous to compare the Texans to the Patriots, IMO. They would be a better comparison to a frugal average team.
 
Mr. White said:
I guess where I come out on OD is this....he's a damn good TE but he hasn't done anything to warrant the top pay in the league. He doesn't block as well as Cooley, Witten, and Shockey and he isn't the pass-catcher that Gates is.
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I would rather have OD than Cooley. Neither are explosive athletes but I think OD is a better one. I think OD has an opportunity to be every bit the player that Jason Witten has become. Their career paths and talents are very similar. Witten was a 3rd rounder with good but not great athleticism but limited size and blocking ability coming out of Tennessee. He worked on his strength and blocking a great deal in order to become the player he is now. OD is on the same path. His blocking improved a great deal last year and I think he became an asset as a blocker. (watch the GB game)... he handled LBs and Kampman one on one a number of times.

My problem with paying OD top dollar is that he lacks the special abilities of Tony G., A. Gates... those players create tremendous problems for defenses. OD, IMO, does not require the same kind of attention. As long as he is in an offense with AJ, he will be open a lot, catch everything thrown to him, and be an asset blocking as well. However, if AJ is injured, OD can't create the problems for a defense that free up secondary receivers and our running game. Elite money for skill position players should be reserved for those athletes that free up the field for the rest of the players, not for the guys that execute when their opportunities are created by scheme or by the presence of a special player like AJ.
 
dalemurphy said:
I would rather have OD than Cooley. Neither are explosive athletes but I think OD is a better one. I think OD has an opportunity to be every bit the player that Jason Witten has become. Their career paths and talents are very similar. Witten was a 3rd rounder with good but not great athleticism but limited size and blocking ability coming out of Tennessee. He worked on his strength and blocking a great deal in order to become the player he is now. OD is on the same path. His blocking improved a great deal last year and I think he became an asset as a blocker. (watch the GB game)... he handled LBs and Kampman one on one a number of times.

My problem with paying OD top dollar is that he lacks the special abilities of Tony G., A. Gates... those players create tremendous problems for defenses. OD, IMO, does not require the same kind of attention. As long as he is in an offense with AJ, he will be open a lot, catch everything thrown to him, and be an asset blocking as well. However, if AJ is injured, OD can't create the problems for a defense that free up secondary receivers and our running game. Elite money for skill position players should be reserved for those athletes that free up the field for the rest of the players, not for the guys that execute when their opportunities are created by scheme or by the presence of a special player like AJ.
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I agree. really solid post :goodpost:
 
Runner said:
This is a question for the group. Many people think that OD isn't worth near the money being offered. Many in the same group think "Smithiak" don't make mistakes in this area. Which is right? Daniels is not worth it or Smith is throwing money away with that offer?
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I think BOTH are true, but...

Smithiak is projecting the higher "future" numbers being offered to TE's, so they can justify what appears to be an overpay this year as it might appear much more agreeable 1-3 yrs. down the road to get him locked up now.

In other words - no he really isn't worth that kind of $ NOW, but that number MIGHT appear reasonable in 2-3 years...by then OD will only be in year 3 of a 5-7 year deal.
 
Runner said:
It's disingenuous to compare the Texans to the Patriots, IMO. They would be a better comparison to a frugal average team.
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It's not a comparison , it's a statement about status . Bill has enough status where nobody questions his moves because the perception is , he can't do wrong .
 
This signing is good news for the Texans as we may have the best TE roster in our history should Hill work out as the blocking TE. Casey can catch the ball in open space, which is what OD does very well between the 20's. Give Casey a year of reps in practice and I am certain he can be a terrific pass catching TE in this offense.

Daniels is a Texan next year and the TE position is now set for 2009, that is the news.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
This signing is good news for the Texans as we may have the best TE roster in our history should Hill work out as the blocking TE. Casey can catch the ball in open space, which is what OD does very well between the 20's. Give Casey a year of reps in practice and I am certain he can be a terrific pass catching TE in this offense.

Daniels is a Texan next year and the TE position is now set for 2009, that is the news.
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But, just released:


Daniels skips first day of minicamp


HOUSTON -- Texans tight end Owen Daniels signed his restricted free-agent tender Sunday but was not at the first day of the team's mandatory three-day minicamp Monday.



Daniels is in line for a fine of almost $10,000 for missing the mandatory session while under contract. A player cannot be fined further than that for missing additional days and it's unclear if Daniels intends to skip all three days.



"We're happy that he elected to come in and sign his tender and be a part of the football team again; a little disappointed that he's not here today," general manager Rick Smith said. "We've talked about this process and how complicated it is. At some point I am sure Owen will rejoin his teammates and be back and playing productive football."
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CloakNNNdagger said:
But, just released:
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Yeah, I added that to my blog post. What I think is interesting is that Smith publicly playing really nice--still talking about working a deal.

I don't like the direction of this negotiation at all. I think they are going to work out a deal and it will be at a number that I will not like.
 
I think Daniels is a guy we need to let walk after this season.

I believe Casey can be a guy who will be able to step in to his role for a fraction of the price.

The best teams can only have a few untouchables and OD is not one of them. I say play this season out and then we can see where Casey/Dreason are and then make a decision.

my .02
 
Texans_Chick said:
Yeah, I added that to my blog post. What I think is interesting is that Smith publicly playing really nice--still talking about working a deal.

I don't like the direction of this negotiation at all. I think they are going to work out a deal and it will be at a number that I will not like.
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I don't see he and his agents doing OD any negotiation or PR favors by missing this OTA.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
I don't see he and his agents doing OD any negotiation or PR favors by missing this OTA.
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Agreed.

He obviously showed up to sign the short-term contract, so that he didn't have to run the risk of the Texans re-offering a lower amount. Yet he won't go ahead and just BE there for the sake of showing people that he's focused and ready to go. Instead, it smells of more posturing by OD and his agents.

With no certain numbers and details of the deal, it's hard to get a read on what's going on.

And if Smith is trying to sign OD with the mindset of beating the new contracts that other star TEs will sign, by overspending "today" in order to save on tomorrow's increased cost, then is OD upset because he knows as soon as he signs his long-term deal he's soon to be eclipsed by other TEs?

In short: Is OD trying to re-raise Smith?
 
Runner said:
So just two people have answered (thanks!) and both think Smith is offering too much money to the hold-outs in his first two challenging negotiations. If true, that doesn't bode well for the future.

I choose to think that Dunta was never offered that huge guaranteed money, that Daniels wouldn't be over compensated with the deal that is on the table, and therefore Smith isn't all that bad.
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I think 3...I answered in a second part of mine a page earlier ;)
 
GP said:
Kuharsky has a great update on the situation.

Here it is: Kuharsky's lengthy blog entry on today's espn.com

Nicely done.
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Really interesting piece. Particularly intrigued with Demeco's candor. These guys are going to pro-bowls and they want to be paid like it. Either we pay or someone else will. Hopefully Rick can work out something fair without paying out ridiculous cash. This is one of those deals where if we don't sign them we look cheap, and if we do people are going to inevitably rake the FO over the coals for paying too much.
 
Fox said:
Really interesting piece. Particularly intrigued with Demeco's candor. These guys are going to pro-bowls and they want to be paid like it. Either we pay or someone else will. Hopefully Rick can work out something fair without paying out ridiculous cash. This is one of those deals where if we don't sign them we look cheap, and if we do people are going to inevitably rake the FO over the coals for paying too much.
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I think Demeco is by far the most important out of all 3. He's the most irreplacable if you ask me and we need more guys on defense right now.

Dunta was already rewarded with a very sweet offer and he declined, so we haven't been cheap with him at all and the money we're paying him this season is more than he deserves.

I don't remember who I was arguing with about the Winslow deal causing Daniels to want close to the kind of money, but I was clearly wrong on that one. I knew it was possible, but I didn't expect him to demand it.

I just wish Demeco and Dunta would STFU!
 
GP said:
Kuharsky has a great update on the situation.

Here it is: Kuharsky's lengthy blog entry on today's espn.com

Nicely done.
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I have a very hard time with a quote by Winston about the situation:

"It's not just the money. Your life's on hold. I know Owen has found a piece of land that he wants to build a house on and be here in Houston and he can't, he doesn't know where he's going to be. One year is great, I'm sure he's not complaining about the money. It's more that your life is just on e hold, you don't know what you're going to do. I think that's an aspect people don't' take into consideration. He's stuck kind of, he's on hold another year, that's another year of insecurity and not being able to really settle in."
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In light of all the money he did receive upon signing the tender, and the probability of an unaccepted sizeable (but not enough) proposed long term contract........let me see, how many Americans have lost their savings, jobs, their homes, their security. How many have no idea if they will have any savings left, a job, a home, or security tomorrow. I'm sorry, but I personally have difficult accepting that line of reasoning. I know some of you will throw tomatoes at me, but at least that will supply me the security of a steady stream of food to put on my family's table.:texflag:
 
Thorn said:
...As I said, I put the blame on society as a whole for this situation. When we value a wide receiver or a quarterback more than a school teacher or a fireman, something is wrong.
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...It's just one of those things that irratate me, but it's not like anything can be done, and it's certainly not going to keep me from watching the NFL, or hoping OD comes back into the fold.

It just pisses me off, that's all...
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School teachers and firemen are government employees whose salaries are paid for by tax dollars. If you think this bad, wait until you're forced to pay for national health care.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
I have a very hard time with a quote by Winston about the situation:



In light of all the money he did receive upon signing the tender, and the probability of an unaccepted sizeable (but not enough) proposed long term contract........let me see, how many Americans have lost their savings, jobs, their homes, their security. How many have no idea if they will have any savings left, a job, a home, or security tomorrow. I'm sorry, but I personally have difficult accepting that line of reasoning. I know some of you will throw tomatoes at me, but at least that will supply me the security of a steady stream of food to put on my family's table.:texflag:
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The problem with the quote is that it is a lie. I am cool with the guys holding out for all they can, but if it is security and knowing you will be in Houston are at the top of the priority list then the Texans have offered that. If you want to be compensated with a contract that say you are one of the players in the game, it is best not to say anything because we know that real issue is money.
 
Wow, what an a-hole. On NFL Network they just mentioned OD signing his tender offer and one of the ex-players said "who?"
 
What is Schaub's roster bonus for next season - $10M? If he has an injury free year and puts up real numbers like his projections, it could get ugly. A top QB like that could want $20M in guarantees plus a hefty yearly salary. These squabbles are just warm-ups.

Back to our regularly scheduled program...
 
ArlingtonTexan said:
The problem with the quote is that it is a lie. I am cool with the guys holding out for all they can, but if it is security and knowing you will be in Houston are at the top of the priority list then the Texans have offered that. If you want to be compensated with a contract that say you are one of the players in the game, it is best not to say anything because we know that real issue is money.
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Uh oh. Someone might be telling us the ugly truth on this situation.

I was thinking the same thing. It's a tad bit "smug" for an NFL player who is going to get a nice contract, regardless of its final amount(s), to claim that he's undergoing some emotional distress because he doesn't know if he's going to be playing in Houston or not.

If you want to play in Houston, you'll sign a contract that bumps your annual pay a significant amount from what it once was...yet you'll also refrain from making incredible coin when there will be MORE Texans players who will need some cap space to get their roll on, as well.

We've got a few players on our team who will make excellent politicians once their playing days are over.
 
Fox said:
Really interesting piece. Particularly intrigued with Demeco's candor. These guys are going to pro-bowls and they want to be paid like it. Either we pay or someone else will. Hopefully Rick can work out something fair without paying out ridiculous cash. This is one of those deals where if we don't sign them we look cheap, and if we do people are going to inevitably rake the FO over the coals for paying too much.
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I'm not sure how good of an example Andre's contract extension is. I think that there was some arm twisting done in those negotiations.

I never have figured out why the Texans extended Winston so quickly. They must really like what they see with him. I'm not sure he is that much better at his position than Demeco is at his.
 
For doing something he loves to do, OD is going to get more money in one
football season than most of us get in a lifetime of working our butts off
but doing something that's much less enjoybable to us. And he can get a hellva lot more if he settles for 13, 14, or 15 million guaranteed instead of holding out for several million more. I would only hope to have his problems.
 
Chronicle article

Everybody must be reading PFT. They want to keep negotiations quiet:

“I’ve read reports in the media about the contract and they are not accurate,” Herman said. “We didn’t have anything to do with those reports. I’m hoping we can have professional dialogue with Rick to get this done. I think the key to getting something done is not to go over the details in the media.

“As long as we keep it on a high level, there’s a chance to get something done. I’m kind of optimistic.”

Smith also reiterated Monday that he wants to keep the negotiations private. He said he is still interested in coming to an agreement on a long-term deal with Daniels, but he did not want to disclose any details about the current talks.

“We think Owen Daniels is one of the top tight ends in football,” Smith said. “And we think that he is a very important piece of our football team and our organization, and we’re going to try to put a deal together that’s reflective of that.

“Our situation is that Owen is a big part of what we’re trying to do. I want to get a long-term deal. I’m very motivated to get that done. That has not changed.”
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nunusguy said:
For doing something he loves to do, OD is going to get more money in one
football season than most of us get in a lifetime of working our butts off
but doing something that's much less enjoybable to us. And he can get a hellva lot more if he settles for 13, 14, or 15 million guaranteed instead of holding out for several million more. I would only hope to have his problems.
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Well, it is hard to feel sorry for the players in his situation. Then again, maybe I'll feel sorry for the team once billionaire Bob pays us back for the stadium. His yearly beer sales are probably more than many schools' yearly budgets too. I think Kubiak and Smith make more than firemen.

If one chooses to look at things from that viewpoint, it isn't just the players that are spoiled and overpaid. Think of it as capitalism in action.

Heck, I know a lot of regular people making more than school teachers and firemen. None of them have tried to make less than they can or have given any back.
 
Runner said:
What is Schaub's roster bonus for next season - $10M? If he has an injury free year and puts up real numbers like his projections, it could get ugly. A top QB like that could want $20M in guarantees plus a hefty yearly salary. These squabbles are just warm-ups.

Back to our regularly scheduled program...
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From where I'm sitting I'm good with this scenario. Give me a healthy, productive season out of Schaub (and some playoffs) and I'll think about the financial consequences later. :shades:
 
Runner said:
Think of it as capitalism in action.

Heck, I know a lot of regular people making more than school teachers and firemen. None of them have tried to make less than they can or have given any back.
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This. Gotta look out for #1, IMO. I'm not looking to make less in a tough economy, I'm looking to preserve as much income as I can.
 
Runner said:
Well, it is hard to feel sorry for the players in his situation. Then again, maybe I'll feel sorry for the team once billionaire Bob pays us back for the stadium. His yearly beer sales are probably more than many schools' yearly budgets too. I think Kubiak and Smith make more than firemen.

If one chooses to look at things from that viewpoint, it isn't just the players that are spoiled and overpaid. Think of it as capitalism in action.

Heck, I know a lot of regular people making more than school teachers and firemen. None of them have tried to make less than they can or have given any back.
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Without people like "billionaire Bob" there is no Houston Texans, there is no NFL. We are all beneficiaries of McNairs efforts. Without him we aren't even having this conversation.
And Daniels is the biggest beneficiary of all. Without McNair he's just playin football in college for the fun of it, then a working stiff with a 5 figure income at some fortune 500 company with his baccalaureate degree. But with McNair he's gonna be worth tens of millions as a pro in the NFL. And all he ever did was play football. Like I said the first time, I wish I could have had Daniels problems.
 
nunusguy said:
Without people like "billionaire Bob" there is no Houston Texans, there is no NFL. We are all beneficiaries of McNairs efforts. Without him we aren't even having this conversation.
And Daniels is the biggest beneficiary of all. Without McNair he's just playin football in college for the fun of it, then a working stiff with a 5 figure income at some fortune 500 company with his baccalaureate degree. But with McNair he's gonna be worth tens of millions as a pro in the NFL. And all he ever did was play football. Like I said the first time, I wish I could have had Daniels problems.
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This sums up as well as anything I've seen why the big business gets a pass on things and the benefit of every doubt. Not that I agree with it. I've seen too many sports teams do crappy things to players and fans alike.
 
nunusguy said:
Without people like "billionaire Bob" there is no Houston Texans, there is no NFL. We are all beneficiaries of McNairs efforts. Without him we aren't even having this conversation.
And Daniels is the biggest beneficiary of all. Without McNair he's just playin football in college for the fun of it, then a working stiff with a 5 figure income at some fortune 500 company with his baccalaureate degree. But with McNair he's gonna be worth tens of millions as a pro in the NFL. And all he ever did was play football. Like I said the first time, I wish I could have had Daniels problems.
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I've been upset with how the fans have been dealing with the holdouts od Ryans, daniels, and Robinson's disputes with their contracts more than the disputes themselves. This post is exactly WHY. I tried posting in Steph's blog today but my post was misunderstood. I just couldn't put it in the right words. Outstanding post. It's got nothing to do with us. It's between the Texans and McNair. This is the way they do business. I'm pretty happy we've got a football team at an affordable price. How they have gone from a simple high school generating revenue to mass marketing making billions of dollars is more of a TV/adverising thing.

I guess I'm trying to say that your post (relevant/not relevant to where you stand on the matter because I don't know how you feel about it) your post described me to a t. The bleep I care about their millions. It's got nothing to do with the salary cap. I trust in management to make the decisions. I may or may not like them but I won't berate or alienate a player for trying to get as much as they can. Someone's getting that money. Why are we alienating a player for fighting with his boss for money he's going to get anyway? What do we care that if McNair or the players gets the millions. It's the kind of business they're in. Lucky bastards and more power to them for that. It's easy to forget about how much McNair is making from this thereby creating the salary cap and so on and on. It's easy to get lost and resentful for the squabbling of millions of dollars. TexansChick said it best. It's disgusting hearing about their spat over millions. It's hard for us to be objective when we're struggling to make our next meal. All I know is that I'm happy with what I get out of my $35 ticket. This money thing doesn't have much to do with what I get from my $35. Blame the networks or whatever for generating so much money out of this.
 
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nunusguy said:
Without people like "billionaire Bob" there is no Houston Texans, there is no NFL. We are all beneficiaries of McNairs efforts. Without him we aren't even having this conversation.
And Daniels is the biggest beneficiary of all. Without McNair he's just playin football in college for the fun of it, then a working stiff with a 5 figure income at some fortune 500 company with his baccalaureate degree. But with McNair he's gonna be worth tens of millions as a pro in the NFL. And all he ever did was play football. Like I said the first time, I wish I could have had Daniels problems.
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We can all share in this, too.

Without us to watch the games, buy the products, etc., McNair doesn't pursue a franchise for Houston. And even if we didn't have a franchise...we'd be watching some NFL team, buying their stuff and buying Sunday Ticket.

There's no single person to blame. We're all connected to it.

In fact, the demand is outweighing the supply. So if anything, the consumer (the fan) has more of the responsibility than anybody. Because millions of fans will watch, it entrenches the owners & players in terms of what they can do and why they are able to escape culpability.

If 75% fewer fans watched football, there wouldn't be high salaries. Of course, there wouldn't be football either.

The issue with OD comes down to hoping the Texans FO doesn't throw the bank at him because there are 31 other teams he can get excessive money from. It satisfies OD's need to be paid what he wants, and it keeps us from having too much invested in him. Because we're going to have a QB and a RB to "help out" fairly soon. They can't all get what they want.
 
GP said:
We can all share in this, too.

Without us to watch the games, buy the products, etc., McNair doesn't pursue a franchise for Houston. And even if we didn't have a franchise...we'd be watching some NFL team, buying their stuff and buying Sunday Ticket.

There's no single person to blame. We're all connected to it.

In fact, the demand is outweighing the supply. So if anything, the consumer (the fan) has more of the responsibility than anybody. Because millions of fans will watch, it entrenches the owners & players in terms of what they can do and why they are able to escape culpability.

If 75% fewer fans watched football, there wouldn't be high salaries. Of course, there wouldn't be football either.

The issue with OD comes down to hoping the Texans FO doesn't throw the bank at him because there are 31 other teams he can get excessive money from. It satisfies OD's need to be paid what he wants, and it keeps us from having too much invested in him. Because we're going to have a QB and a RB to "help out" fairly soon. They can't all get what they want.
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But that's kind of trying to put the some of the blame on us for it. The money is there. If they took away the NFL, we'd be watching what they put on the television then the actors get the millions and what not. The money is there. It's just the way it is.
 
Runner said:
I'm not sure how good of an example Andre's contract extension is. I think that there was some arm twisting done in those negotiations.

I never have figured out why the Texans extended Winston so quickly. They must really like what they see with him. I'm not sure he is that much better at his position than Demeco is at his.
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I think it may have been because we did not have much behind Winston compared with who we have behind Demeco.
 
Hey Eric! Good to see you step up for the players who went above their contract and went to Pro Bowl or what ever. What is your opinion on those like Okam and Travis Johnson who have not lived up to their deals? I am sure you believe those players should "reward" the owner by refunding some cash?

Dunta can buy his Houston property out of the $10 million & if he is real good and gets franchised again he should get another hefty $10 -12 million next season. By then his skill set may be diminishing and I know you don't want Mr McNair to be paying DR on a longtime contract when the CB may not be earning the $.
 
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