Owen Daniels/Texans playing "contract chicken"'

[DiehardChris]

Can someone point me to the source of OD asking for Winslow type money? Barring that, can we stop implying that he did just to make him look bad and the team look smart?

I know, the answer is no to both.

I think it is just as likely that the team is resisting a fair long term offer since he can't go anywhere else for two years anyway. They have a big stick with the CBA issue, why not use it?

There's no source. We've always said IF IF IF he's asking for Winslow money.

The problem is - his stats are BETTER than Winslow's, except for TDs, so I don't think it's a huge stretch to speculate that Owen's looking for a comparable contract.

What other reason would there be for a restricted FA to still be unsigned at this point? He's the ONLY unsigned RFA in the entire league.

 

[Runner]

There's no source. We've always said IF IF IF he's asking for Winslow money.

The problem is - his stats are BETTER than Winslow's, except for TDs, so I don't think it's a huge stretch to speculate that Owen's looking for a comparable contract.

What other reason would there be for a restricted FA to still be unsigned at this point? He's the ONLY unsigned RFA in the entire league.

I know if if if. That's why I said "implying.

I presented another plausible reason at the end of the post you quoted.

 

[disaacks3]

Who, besides "fans" making posts said he was looking for Winslow money? When fans make those assumptions just to have something to complain about, they seem far whinier than than the players. As soon as a player doesn't salute the Texans flag the tergiversation starts. As soon as he signs he'll be a great guy again, so I guess it evens out.

Alan Herman, one of OD's agents said:

a barometer in these negotiations will be the contract extension tight end Kellen Winslow received from the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Link

But I guess Herman's just a disgruntled fan too?

For the record, that was back in APRIL...

Exactly who is making assumptions about WHOM again?

 

[Goatcheese]

The afternoon guys on SR610 said on air that last season the Texans were 18th in the NFL in payroll, at about $109 million. They were 4th in terms of making money.

Key term: Salary cap

2008 Cap: $114,521,131
Texans: $111,227,844
Texans cap space: $3,293,287

 

[Runner]

Alan Herman, one of OD's agents said: Link

But I guess Herman's just a disgruntled fan too?

For the record, that was back in APRIL...

Exactly who is making assumptions about WHOM again?

That is interesting.

And no, I don't think he's a disgruntled fan. I'm not one to keep twisting things so I can ignore new evidence and prove I'm smart because I can't change an opinion.

And yes, I still think posters make lots of assumptions to support their world view. I doubt everyone but me had seen that quote.

There is still a great deal of uncertainty to me if he would ask for as much as Winslow, or if being a reasonable person he might know that is out of reach but still ask for more than the Texans want to pay.

 

[TEXANRED]

It's OD's fault we aren't scoring in the redzone? He can't throw himself the ball. Let's start by improving the run game and decreasing the amount of TO's in the redzone before we start placing blame on OD.

I'm sorry, but Dreessen doesn't even compare to OD. He'll be lucky to make the team next year if Casey proves he's ready.

OD is one of our core players. He isn't going anywhere.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree. OD benifits from a pass happy offense and having the best WR in the NFL playing next to him. OD is open cus the defense rolls to AJ.

And there where no lack of pass attempts in the RZ last year. A lack of getting open maybe......

 

[eriadoc]

Key term: Salary cap

2008 Cap: $114,521,131
Texans: $111,227,844
Texans cap space: $3,293,287

So where were the 17 teams that spent more on payroll last year, and how does that compare?

 

[hookinreds]

The Texans better lock OD in before the Chargers sign Gates to an extension...that's when you will really see the $$$ flying out the door. Winslow's salary will look like bus fare compared to what Gates will pull.

 

[TimeKiller]

and if OD thinks he's even on the same terrain as Gates he's out his damn mind. Who is the great reciever to draw attention away from Gates again? Rivers is a good QB but it takes more than that unless you have freak talent like Gates, which OD does not in a million bazillion years have.

Good teams don't overpay. and if OD wanted a deal done by now it would be done. At least he has the self respect to not cry about it....

 

[Goatcheese]

So where were the 17 teams that spent more on payroll last year, and how does that compare?

They probably spent more on coaches, and didn't have $10-15 million in dead money on the cap.

 

[PhilpW]

Check out where OD is on the list of TE salaries for 2008.

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playersbyposition.aspx?pos=134

 

[Texans_Chick]

There's no source. We've always said IF IF IF he's asking for Winslow money.

The problem is - his stats are BETTER than Winslow's, except for TDs, so I don't think it's a huge stretch to speculate that Owen's looking for a comparable contract.

What other reason would there be for a restricted FA to still be unsigned at this point? He's the ONLY unsigned RFA in the entire league.

The problem isn't him asking for Winslow money. We don't know what he asked for, but at the time the Winslow deal went down, OD's agent talked about the Winslow deal in the context of OD's negotiation:

Discussing Owen Daniels contract extension talks


"Herman (OD's agent) said a barometer in these negotiations will be the contract extension tight end Kellen Winslow received from the Tampa Bay Buccaneers."


The problem is that Winslow's money affects everyone's money. Winslow played like crap last year and has a huge injury history, so if Winslow gets that sort of money, the expectations for all good TEs change.

The Winslow contract complicates all negotiations because the Texans would prefer not to be as monumentally stupid as Tampa Bay.

 

[Marcus]

The Winslow contract complicates all negotiations because the Texans would prefer not to be as monumentally stupid as Tampa Bay.

If Charlie Casserly was still running this circus, both Dunta and OD would be signed to long term contracts by now . . . to the detriment of the team via salary cap and a boatload of dead money.

The Texans now, I say now, are not any different from the 31 other teams. Everyone one of them are having the same issues at this time of year. This team didn't used to be that way, and the end result showed.

Now, if in fact OD's agent wants Winslow money, I think Smith should deal him for a draft pick and be done with it. And as far as Dunta goes, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he's dealt before traning camp starts.

 

[Runner]

Check out where OD is on the list of TE salaries for 2008.

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playersbyposition.aspx?pos=134

Another interesting post. Only a couple of spots below Billy Miller, ordered by cap hit.

The tender changes things for this year though. Total guranteed money carries more weight than a single season's salary too, I imagine.

 

[ubecool454]

Should we be getting a little frustrated with Rick Smith? I mean I don't blame him for the Dunta situation but there is no reason OD and Demeco should not be getting good deals. What's the problem?

There is no problem....camp hasn't started yet and Demeco will be taken care of...Dunta may as well show up for camp and be ready to play because he is tagged and coming off a major injury he should understand the teams position...As much as I like OD he may be the most expendable of the three...I can't recall the source but I had heard the Bills want OD pretty bad...and we are pretty stacked at TE. If the Bills want to give up a first rounder for OD and pay him the bucks he wants...its a no brainer.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

Another interesting post. Only a couple of spots below Billy Miller, ordered by cap hit.

The tender changes things for this year though. Total guranteed money carries more weight than a single season's salary too, I imagine.

Really, by definition any mid to late round draft pick who performs well is going to be underpaid. don't think anyone is denying he should be paid more, exactly how much is the tough question Smith and OD agent are trying to figure out.

 

[Battle Red Flash]

If Charlie Casserly was still running this circus, both Dunta and OD would be signed to long term contracts by now . . . to the detriment of the team via salary cap and a boatload of dead money.

The Texans now, I say now, are not any different from the 31 other teams. Everyone one of them are having the same issues at this time of year. This team didn't used to be that way, and the end result showed.

Now, if in fact OD's agent wants Winslow money, I think Smith should deal him for a draft pick and be done with it. And as far as Dunta goes, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he's dealt before traning camp starts.

I totally agee with this. Rick Smith is just thinking of the future. (And we all need to calm down, it's only OTA's. No one's missed any training camp yet) New England operates this way. If they can't sign a vet for good money, they let him go.

 

[Texecutioner]

If Charlie Casserly was still running this circus, both Dunta and OD would be signed to long term contracts by now . . . to the detriment of the team via salary cap and a boatload of dead money.

The Texans now, I say now, are not any different from the 31 other teams. Everyone one of them are having the same issues at this time of year. This team didn't used to be that way, and the end result showed.

Now, if in fact OD's agent wants Winslow money, I think Smith should deal him for a draft pick and be done with it. And as far as Dunta goes, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he's dealt before traning camp starts.

THat's what I've been saying. If he wants those top dollars, then I've got no problem getting a first rounder for him or a 2nd and a 3rd or something. Next year's draft will be really really deep. We've got a lot of depth at the TE position, and I think we would be just fine actually.

 

[NitroGSXR]

I include owners, agents, players, fans who buy season tickets and merchandise, cable companies and product manufactures who buy commercial time on NFL broadcasts. All are guilty. That’s right, even me.

As I said, I put the blame on society as a whole for this situation. When we value a wide receiver or a quarterback more than a school teacher or a fireman, something is wrong.

Why?

As far as I'm concerned... my tickets cost $35 each per game. I get tremendous value for my $35 dollars. 2 and a half days worth of slampacked fun squeezed out of $35 dollars.

I spend the day before the game shopping for and packing up gameday/tailgate necessities, loading up my minivan, laying out my schedule for gameday, reading up on player news... On gameday, I spend the morning getting pumped up the closer I get to Reliant, cooking, enjoying the various tailgates on my trek to the seats, getting to my seats early to guage the type of fans in my section, watching the game, enjoying the tailgates on my way back to our car, unloading and cleaning our stuff getting it ready for the next game... Waking up the next morning ready to praise or diss my Houston Texans among my coworkers and friends. The best part is that I do all of this with my 7 year old son. That's a pretty good value for 2 and a half excitement jam packed days. As a result of my decision to plunk away $35, I've grown and I found TexansTalk and spend so much time meeting decent and honorable people I'd be proud to call my friends. Man, I love the Houston Texans and sure am glad they're here for me to throw away $35 on. I don't know about you but I really think I've gotten tremendous value out of my $35.

How my $35 dollars translates into hundreds of millions of dollars is beyond my understanding. What I DO understand.... I'm pretty happy with what I get out of my $35 dollars. Schlitterbahn or Texans game? The choice is pretty easy for my family. It's just what we enjoy doing as a family! Does this make me a bad fan who's contributing to the outrageous salaries? I can't agree with that logic. I've got to spend $35 on something afterall.

Basically, Owen Daniels' and Dunta Robinson's beef with the front office isn't going to stop me from spending $35 a ticket. I'm real happy with the product they put out. I'll let Smith finish up his job before I comment on it. As far as I'm concerned, he's not finished. Lots to do before we field a team of 53 players. Even then, we've got the trade deadlines.

 

[GP]

THat's what I've been saying. If he wants those top dollars, then I've got no problem getting a first rounder for him or a 2nd and a 3rd or something. Next year's draft will be really really deep. We've got a lot of depth at the TE position, and I think we would be just fine actually.

Agreed.

There's something about the idea of overpaying a TE (any TE!) when we might be able to transform that TE into extra draft picks...high-value draft picks.

It's a win-win-win: 1st win was grabbing Daniels in the first place and having him turn out like he did, 2nd win would be getting tremendous draft trade value for him, and the 3rd win is that some team out there pays him what he wants.

Win-wins are good. Win-win-wins are better.

 

[Thorn]

Why?

As far as I'm concerned... my tickets cost $35 each per game. I get tremendous value for my $35 dollars. 2 and a half days worth of slampacked fun squeezed out of $35 dollars.

I spend the day before the game shopping for and packing up gameday/tailgate necessities, loading up my minivan, laying out my schedule for gameday, reading up on player news... On gameday, I spend the morning getting pumped up the closer I get to Reliant, cooking, enjoying the various tailgates on my trek to the seats, getting to my seats early to guage the type of fans in my section, watching the game, enjoying the tailgates on my way back to our car, unloading and cleaning our stuff getting it ready for the next game... Waking up the next morning ready to praise or diss my Houston Texans among my coworkers and friends. The best part is that I do all of this with my 7 year old son. That's a pretty good value for 2 and a half excitement jam packed days. As a result of my decision to plunk away $35, I've grown and I found TexansTalk and spend so much time meeting decent and honorable people I'd be proud to call my friends. Man, I love the Houston Texans and sure am glad they're here for me to throw away $35 on. I don't know about you but I really think I've gotten tremendous value out of my $35.

How my $35 dollars translates into hundreds of millions of dollars is beyond my understanding. What I DO understand.... I'm pretty happy with what I get out of my $35 dollars. Schlitterbahn or Texans game? The choice is pretty easy for my family. It's just what we enjoy doing as a family! Does this make me a bad fan who's contributing to the outrageous salaries? I can't agree with that logic. I've got to spend $35 on something afterall.

Basically, Owen Daniels' and Dunta Robinson's beef with the front office isn't going to stop me from spending $35 a ticket. I'm real happy with the product they put out. I'll let Smith finish up his job before I comment on it. As far as I'm concerned, he's not finished. Lots to do before we field a team of 53 players. Even then, we've got the trade deadlines.

I wasn’t complaining about anyone in particular, just the situation itself bothers me. I suppose my complaint isn’t just about football salaries and sports, but the priority that we place on things. It just seems to me that when you take a rich sports player or a famous actor or musician’s yearly salary, you could probably build a new elementary school and staff it for a year.

It’s not that anything will ever be done about it, and I’m not sure it’s worth complaining about. It’s kind of like living in Houston and bitching about the humidity. It’s just something that never ceases to irritate me when I think about it.

And it gets even more irratating when the economy is in the shitter like it is now, and sports players want more millions. There is something wrong with this picture.

 

[Runner]

THat's what I've been saying. If he wants those top dollars, then I've got no problem getting a first rounder for him or a 2nd and a 3rd or something. Next year's draft will be really really deep. We've got a lot of depth at the TE position, and I think we would be just fine actually.

Why would a team give up a high draft pick(s) for a guy who is a product of the system and can be replaced by a fourth round rookie?

This is not a serious question.

 

[Texecutioner]

Why would a team give up a high draft pick(s) for a guy who is a product of the system and can be replaced by a fourth round rookie?

Who says that he's just a product of a system? You? Well even if that were true, that doesn't mean every team thinks that. The bottom line is that he is highly touted as one of the top TE's right now and his value is very high. Teams use #1 draft picks for TE's all of the time that they expect to have his similar production and with a proven player like him, teams would be more willing to use a #1 draft pick on a proven player vs. non proven player with potential.

If not a #1 draft pick, possibly a 2nd and a 3rd perhaps. All it takes is one team and there are plenty of teams that could use a player like Owen Daniels that doesn't have any question marks.

 

[Jackie Chiles]

If Charlie Casserly was still running this circus, both Dunta and OD would be signed to long term contracts by now . . . to the detriment of the team via salary cap and a boatload of dead money.

The Texans now, I say now, are not any different from the 31 other teams. Everyone one of them are having the same issues at this time of year. This team didn't used to be that way, and the end result showed.

Now, if in fact OD's agent wants Winslow money, I think Smith should deal him for a draft pick and be done with it. And as far as Dunta goes, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he's dealt before traning camp starts.

I agree with the first two paragraphs here, the last one not so much. Dunta cannot be traded until he actually signs the franchise tag, same reason there has been zero progress for Peppers wanting to get out of Carolina. Even if we could trade him I don't think we would be exploring that option. Would it help us in the future? Probably. Being able to get future draft picks for him (or OD for that matter) would help us in the future if we make the decision not to keep these guys. Problem is we have to win this season and both of these guys will help us do that. I have been a big supporter of having Dunta play this one year for us and then trading him, and that would be ideal but it is probably a pipe dream. We are either going to pony up and resign him or this tag is a one year rental to help us get our first winning season/playoff appearance. I think the Texan's organization as a whole sees the light at the end of that tunnel and they know we have to knock that monkey off our back this year.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

Who says that he's just a product of a system? You? Well even if that were true, that doesn't mean every team thinks that. The bottom line is that he is highly touted as one of the top TE's right now and his value is very high. Teams use #1 draft picks for TE's all of the time that they expect to have his similar production and with a proven player like him, teams would be more willing to use a #1 draft pick on a proven player vs. non proven player with potential.

If not a #1 draft pick, possibly a 2nd and a 3rd perhaps. All it takes is one team and there are plenty of teams that could use a player like Owen Daniels that doesn't have any question marks.

Last Trades involving name TEs

Shockey (2nd and 5th)
Winslow (2nd and 5th)
Gonzalez (2nd 2010)

 

[Runner]

Who says that he's just a product of a system? You? Well even if that were true, that doesn't mean every team thinks that. The bottom line is that he is highly touted as one of the top TE's right now and his value is very high. Teams use #1 draft picks for TE's all of the time that they expect to have his similar production and with a proven player like him, teams would be more willing to use a #1 draft pick on a proven player vs. non proven player with potential.

If not a #1 draft pick, possibly a 2nd and a 3rd perhaps. All it takes is one team and there are plenty of teams that could use a player like Owen Daniels that doesn't have any question marks.

No, it is definitely not me. That was just a comment about him being widely touted as a "top 5 tight end" since last season, until he wanted more money. That simple statement has now defined him as a "product of the system" almost as widely. Yes, I know I'm personifying message board group think instead of looking at it as myriad individual opinions, but I'm sure those opinions have overlapped within single posters.

I think he's a talented player that a smart team would try to keep if they are trying to progress. I'd like to think that he doesn't over value himself AND that the Texans are negotiating in good faith. However, I have my doubts that either of these statements is entirely true.

 

[Texecutioner]

Last Trades involving name TEs

Shockey (2nd and 5th)
Winslow (2nd and 5th)
Gonzalez (2nd 2010)

Shockey didn't have the value that Daniels does. It was widely known that he had become a locker room cancer type and was constantly bitching without any reason to do so. Plus his numbers had been going down every season practically, and he has yet to have any season as good as his rookie season.

Winslow has had some major surgeries and many problems with his organization as well. He is known for being a TE that doesn't block either. I don't think his trade value is what Daniels could be.

Gonzo is a HOF and one of the best of all time, but he's got one to two years left at best, so he is not anywhere near comparable to what the value of a 4th year player like Daniels is.

I actually think that these examples you just presented make a stronger case that he could possibly be had for a 1st rounder because he should have more value than any of these other guys. He is younger than all of these guys and hasn't had any injury issues like the others and catches passes well and blocks well and has a good attitude. None of these examples have a better package than what Daniels does on paper.

 

[eriadoc]

Agreed.

There's something about the idea of overpaying a TE (any TE!) when we might be able to transform that TE into extra draft picks...high-value draft picks.

It's a win-win-win: 1st win was grabbing Daniels in the first place and having him turn out like he did, 2nd win would be getting tremendous draft trade value for him, and the 3rd win is that some team out there pays him what he wants.

Win-wins are good. Win-win-wins are better.

That's like trading in a winning lottery ticket for another lottery ticket. That makes no sense. Draft picks aren't worth jack if you don't turn them into something. They already turned a 4th rounder into something and now you want to trade that something in for another chance at the lottery? WTH?

 

[ubecool454]

I wasn’t complaining about anyone in particular, just the situation itself bothers me. I suppose my complaint isn’t just about football salaries and sports, but the priority that we place on things. It just seems to me that when you take a rich sports player or a famous actor or musician’s yearly salary, you could probably build a new elementary school and staff it for a year.

It’s not that anything will ever be done about it, and I’m not sure it’s worth complaining about. It’s kind of like living in Houston and bitching about the humidity. It’s just something that never ceases to irritate me when I think about it.

And it gets even more irratating when the economy is in the shitter like it is now, and sports players want more millions. There is something wrong with this picture.

Welcome to the NFL. We have never had this problem before as far as disgruntled players and contract problems. Most teams go thru this all the time so I guess we have really made it to the big time.

 

[GP]

That's like trading in a winning lottery ticket for another lottery ticket. That makes no sense. Draft picks aren't worth jack if you don't turn them into something. They already turned a 4th rounder into something and now you want to trade that something in for another chance at the lottery? WTH?

It makes sense once your 4th-round TE wants to be paid a lot more money.

It all goes back to the win-win-win: Has he earned more money? Yes. Has he earned Winslow money? No, and neither has Winslow. Our front office has to determine who gets big money and who has to play at, or perhaps a little above, what they are really worth. Fans here are wondering if he wants just a little bit more money or if he wants crazy stupid lottery money.

As a team-first fan, I want the contract dollars to be juuuuust right. Not too hot and not too cold. As a fan, I don't want us spending a lot of money on a TE. If he wants a lot, we need to help him find a team who can pay it.

Meanwhile, we'll grab a high draft pick or two, however that scale works out, but the fact remains that players sometimes price themselves out of the range of a team's vision for what that player is worth.

There's a whole different way of handling these things with Rick Smith at the controls. Someone else said that it's better than the Casserly way of doing contracts. I agree with those thoughts.

So we'll wait and see. OD fits the TE role very well here. I hope he's retained. But it's not the end of the offense if he leaves.

 

[NitroGSXR]

I wasn’t complaining about anyone in particular, just the situation itself bothers me. I suppose my complaint isn’t just about football salaries and sports, but the priority that we place on things. It just seems to me that when you take a rich sports player or a famous actor or musician’s yearly salary, you could probably build a new elementary school and staff it for a year.

It’s not that anything will ever be done about it, and I’m not sure it’s worth complaining about. It’s kind of like living in Houston and bitching about the humidity. It’s just something that never ceases to irritate me when I think about it.

And it gets even more irratating when the economy is in the shitter like it is now, and sports players want more millions. There is something wrong with this picture.

Absolutely but if they put on a good product, why shouldn't they reap the benefits from it? I guess that's a whole different discussion right there. I just didn't want someone looking down at me as a fan for buying season tickets. This issue is a whole lot bigger than a $35 ticket. A lot bigger.

 

[Thorn]

Absolutely but if they put on a good product, why shouldn't they reap the benefits from it? I guess that's a whole different discussion right there. I just didn't want someone looking down at me as a fan for buying season tickets. This issue is a whole lot bigger than a $35 ticket. A lot bigger.

Yeah, and that's why I included myself in my rant. I used to be an Oiler season ticket holder. And a Gambler season ticket holder as well. LOL

 

[Goldensilence]

It makes sense once your 4th-round TE wants to be paid a lot more money.

It all goes back to the win-win-win: Has he earned more money? Yes. Has he earned Winslow money? No, and neither has Winslow. Our front office has to determine who gets big money and who has to play at, or perhaps a little above, what they are really worth. Fans here are wondering if he wants just a little bit more money or if he wants crazy stupid lottery money.

As a team-first fan, I want the contract dollars to be juuuuust right. Not too hot and not too cold. As a fan, I don't want us spending a lot of money on a TE. If he wants a lot, we need to help him find a team who can pay it.

Meanwhile, we'll grab a high draft pick or two, however that scale works out, but the fact remains that players sometimes price themselves out of the range of a team's vision for what that player is worth.

There's a whole different way of handling these things with Rick Smith at the controls. Someone else said that it's better than the Casserly way of doing contracts. I agree with those thoughts.

So we'll wait and see. OD fits the TE role very well here. I hope he's retained. But it's not the end of the offense if he leaves.

Bolded part sums up my feelings. Great guy, great team player, hope to see the team act on good faith as well after he showed at OTAs. I want him to be rewarded for sure for really making himself into one of the better TEs league-wide. Just don't want to shell out Winslow type money and at the same time he's not a complete integral part of the offense like Tony Gonzo or Gates has been.

We've already overpaid for one guy this off-season anyway.

 

[Double Barrel]

Bolded part sums up my feelings. Great guy, great team player, hope to see the team act on good faith as well after he showed at OTAs. I want him to be rewarded for sure for really making himself into one of the better TEs league-wide. Just don't want to shell out Winslow type money and at the same time he's not a complete integral part of the offense like Tony Gonzo or Gates has been.

We've already overpaid for one guy this off-season anyway.

With 70 receptions for 862 yards, I'd say OD is a pretty big part of our offense (more receptions and yards than Gates had last season, btw).

Unfortunately, the Winslow deal sets the new standard for TE contracts. If we are not willing to meet that standard, we will never have a consistently great TE and will be forced to rely on unproven young talent and hope for the best. The Winslow standard is going to screw a lot of teams up, IMO, but that's just business in the NFL.

 

[disaacks3]

I'm not so sure that we can easily replace (much less upgrade) for OD, but the RFA tag that would dictate a 1st AND a 3rd for him would be worth a try if it came to that. The Texans aren't offering him chump change, and has already been said numerous times, NO TE is worth (at least IMHO) Winslow $$.

Long story short - I want OD back and I hope he and the F.O. can get their differences ironed out before training camp.

 

[Polo]

I hope the team does not give in to any of the players...

I think it all comes down to "where do you want your big money spent"?

And I'm sorry, but for me, it isn't on Owen Daniels or D-Rob...I do hope the players realize that everyone can't get a max deal or super fat contract...

I'm not mad at the players for wanting to make their money, but at the same time I want the Texans to let these guys walk if they demand too much....

 

[Goldensilence]

With 70 receptions for 862 yards, I'd say OD is a pretty big part of our offense (more receptions and yards than Gates had last season, btw).

Unfortunately, the Winslow deal sets the new standard for TE contracts. If we are not willing to meet that standard, we will never have a consistently great TE and will be forced to rely on unproven young talent and hope for the best. The Winslow standard is going to screw a lot of teams up, IMO, but that's just business in the NFL.

I guess I should've said a focal point of our passing game like Gates and Gonzo have been. The Winslow deal screwed a lot of teams for a standard. TB ownership is off the deep end. I hope we retain OD and I feel condfident both sides can work out a deal that is suitable to both sides.

 

[dalemurphy]

The problem is that OD's production is among the elite TEs but he is not the kind of athlete that demands special attention. He doesn't have the size, speed, or athleticism to create consistent matchup problems for defenses. None of that says that he isn't valuable or that he's easily replaceable. However, a successful organization can't create an environment for players to succeed in and then pay them all as if they are elite talents. If we were to do that, we'd be consistently cycling in and out of cap hell.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

The problem is that OD's production is among the elite TEs but he is not the kind of athlete that demands special attention. He doesn't have the size, speed, or athleticism to create consistent matchup problems for defenses. None of that says that he isn't valuable or that he's easily replaceable. However, a successful organization can't create an environment for players to succeed in and then pay them all as if they are elite talents. If we were to do that, we'd be consistently cycling in and out of cap hell.

I think that's what happens with the Eagles. So many of their defensive players look so great in that Eagle D and then go somewhere else and stink up the joint. Then when/ikf they get back to the Eagles (like Trotter), they usually start playing well again.

Like you said, the Eagles don't usually pay those guys because they know that a lot of their success is because of the system.

I don't know if that's the case with OD. I know that Dreessen has looked good in spot duty. But I don't think this is an issue, yet. OD wants a long term deal and I want him to have a long term deal. But he's still basically under contract.

I think they're going to work it out.

 

[Runner]

The problem is that OD's production is among the elite TEs but he is not the kind of athlete that demands special attention. He doesn't have the size, speed, or athleticism to create consistent matchup problems for defenses. None of that says that he isn't valuable or that he's easily replaceable. However, a successful organization can't create an environment for players to succeed in and then pay them all as if they are elite talents. If we were to do that, we'd be consistently cycling in and out of cap hell.

On the other hand, it is hard for a team to get above average if they consistently get rid of above average performers.

There is a large amount of room between the Texans tender with no long term guarantee and Winslow's high end contract. There is room for negotiation of a fair offer that doesn't break the bank. Both sides have to be interested in finding it.

 

[sbalderrama]

The problem is that OD's production is among the elite TEs but he is not the kind of athlete that demands special attention. He doesn't have the size, speed, or athleticism to create consistent matchup problems for defenses. None of that says that he isn't valuable or that he's easily replaceable. However, a successful organization can't create an environment for players to succeed in and then pay them all as if they are elite talents. If we were to do that, we'd be consistently cycling in and out of cap hell.

I'm sure DC's around the league are all saying, "yeah, Owen has outstanding production, but we will ignore him because even with all that production he really isn't a matchup problem for us."

 

[dalemurphy]

I'm sure DC's around the league are all saying, "yeah, Owen has outstanding production, but we will ignore him because even with all that production he really isn't a matchup problem for us."

sarcasm aside, that is exactly what they are doing when they role coverage towards AJ and focus on stopping Slaton, biting hard on playaction- thereby leaving OD singled up on a LB.

I really like OD and wasn't diminishing his accomplishments. I love that he has become a solid blocker, gets open, makes almost every catch and has become pretty good after the catch. That being said, show me tape of OD being double-teamed by a LB and S or show me where he regularly beats a CB or cover safety in man situations... there aren't many. The Texans simply can't pay OD like an elite TE. It will lead to too many problems down the road, IMO.

 

[Goatcheese]

sarcasm aside, that is exactly what they are doing when they role coverage towards AJ and focus on stopping Slaton, biting hard on play- thereby leaving OD singled up on a LB.

I really like OD and wasn't diminishing his accomplishments. I love that he has become a solid blocker, gets open, makes almost every catch and has become pretty good after the catch. That being said, show me tape of OD being double-teamed by a LB and S or show me where he regularly beats a CB or cover safety in man situations... there aren't many. The Texans simply can't pay OD like an elite TE. It will lead to too many problems down the road, IMO.

The Texans are going to have to pay OD like a top 5 TE because that's what he is. There are only 3 guys that I would clearly say are better. Gonzo, Gates, and Witten. OD is arguably the best of the tier 2 TEs active in the league right now. Of course as a tier 2 TE he needs to forget about the Winslow contract and his hope of being the highest paid TE in the NFL.

 

[Joe Texan]

whatever they think he is worth they better pay his ass

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

whatever they think he is worth they better pay his ass

I'm thinking that two things play into this .

1. The Winslow deal .

2. They think they can plug in Casey next year for less .

 

[Wolf]

I'm thinking that two things play into this .

1. The Winslow deal .

2. They think they can plug in Casey next year for less .

exactly I have mixed feeling on it, but I think it is mainly due the unknown future and how we drafted .. we have only 3 drafts with this regime ..and while i have confidence in them, I still have doubts (I am a natural pessimist) .. I hate the patriots but seems situations like this, patriots find ways of getting teams to bite and their system is plug and play baby. plug and play..

Now I would like OD to stay here.

Now I am starting to over analyze, seems the Texans planned for this, we drafted 2 TE's this year, if they will pan out will be the issue and obviously their development determines what we do with OD

I know, I know captain obvious reporting for duty

 

[dalemurphy]

exactly I have mixed feeling on it, but I think it is mainly due the unknown future and how we drafted .. we have only 3 drafts with this regime ..and while i have confidence in them, I still have doubts (I am a natural pessimist) .. I hate the patriots but seems situations like this, patriots find ways of getting teams to bite and their system is plug and play baby. plug and play..

Now I would like OD to stay here.

Now I am starting to over analyze, seems the Texans planned for this, we drafted 2 TE's this year, if they will pan out will be the issue and obviously their development determines what we do with OD

I know, I know captain obvious reporting for duty

In the end, I think OD's agent realized this last OTA was their last shot to pressure the Texans. Starting Monday, the Texans can rescind their RFA tender and offer him a 10% raise over last season's tiny salary. At that point, he has no options other than to eventually sign that deal. In addition to that, because of the collective bargaining situation, there is also a significant risk that he won't be able to hit UFA next year, either. I expect him to sign his RFA tender and report to camp on Monday.

 

[noxiousdog]

I'd rather have KWalter re-signed

This can't be understated. OD may be a fantastic tight end. But at the end of the day, he's still a tight end.

Kevin Walter had more yards and more touchdowns than did Daniels.

You don't pay your 5th most productive skill player silly money.

 

[Texecutioner]

DRob
Pitts
KWalter
DRyans
ODaniels
KBentley
R.Butler

are all scheduled to be UFA after the season. It simply isn't realistic to expect the Texans to sign them all... certainly to sign them all and without conflict, especially given the collective bargaining climate.

I know you wear funny stuff on your head and are a popular tailgater but you sure make a lot of oversimplified statements on the boards that give the impression that you don't really know much about the game you are so passionate about.

I hope they reach agreement with OD as well. But, I certainly don't want the front office to sign him, regardless of what it takes to do so... I'd rather have KWalter re-signed, work with the combination of Dressen, Hill, and Casey at TE, and be able to extend Slaton and get guys like Butler and Bentley re-signed... Rather than, pay up for OD and be unable to take care of other players.

Exactly. We have to think about the scope of the entire team before we go all in at the TE position. We have to many other important pieces to think about other than a position that we have pretty good depth at currently. We also still have a few holes on defense like at Safety and could use a better CB and possibly a better DT if Okoye doesn't revert back to his rookie form or better and Okam and Johnson are still average players at best. We could possibly address this with a draft pick that we could possibly get for Daniels and just might still have high quality production at TE with Casey.

I think everyone wants to keep Daniels, but if the price is to high, we have to think about the entire team first.

 

[dalemurphy]

This can't be understated. OD may be a fantastic tight end. But at the end of the day, he's still a tight end.

Kevin Walter had more yards and more touchdowns than did Daniels.

You don't pay your 5th most productive skill player silly money.

Again, and sorry to belabor the point, but KWalter will be an UFA regardless of what happens with the collective bargaining agreement this year, and he may be a UFA when there is no salary cap.

On the other hand, if a new agreement isn't reached, then OD will be a RFA again next year and in 2011, and only be guaranteed a 10% raise off of his current salary. Considering that he was only a 4th round pick, at some point, he's going to be compelled to take a reasonable offer in order to secure his millions.

NFL teams have more leverage this year with 3 year players than they've had since the beginning of NFL free agency. The players and agents are all balking right now, but as the season gets closer, these guys are going to be forced into taking less than top dollar deals.