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Texans’ State Of the Union...

Earl34 said:
I think everyone can agree that Fuller is more talented than Kevin Walter. Yet, Kubiak was able to get similar production from Walter. Every TE on the current roster is probably more gifted athletically than Owen Daniels. Are they as productive?

Say what you want about Kubiak. When it comes to the offensive skill players, he did more with less and because of his confidence in his system, he was able to spend more resources on defense instead of his offense. O'Brien is doing the opposite.
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Walter and Open Daniels were two of the best route runners in the league .... they didn't rely upon pure athletic ability even tho they were plus athletes - they honed their craft and had a coach who is probably the best route / route combination designer in the history of this league. Add those things together and you don't need the best athletes to produce.

WFV is a gifted athlete .... but none of these guys on this roster would be mentioned as great route runners or particularly crafty. They also have a guy who doesn't produce routes that compliment one another .... What we get with this is , well , the results speak for themselves.

The more i think about it , the more I agree with @OptimisticTexan , burn it down and rebuild from the foundation up.
The ceiling for this team is a disappointing post season loss while the floor is sending Miami two picks in the top 37 and a busted salary cap.

Burn it down.
 
Corrosion said:
Walter and Open Daniels were two of the best route runners in the league .... they didn't rely upon pure athletic ability even tho they were plus athletes - they honed their craft and had a coach who is probably the best route / route combination designer in the history of this league. Add those things together and you don't need the best athletes to produce.

WFV is a gifted athlete .... but none of these guys on this roster would be mentioned as great route runners or particularly crafty. They also have a guy who doesn't produce routes that compliment one another .... What we get with this is , well , the results speak for themselves.

The more i think about it , the more I agree with @OptimisticTexan , burn it down and rebuild from the foundation up.
The ceiling for this team is a disappointing post season loss while the floor is sending Miami two picks in the top 37 and a busted salary cap.

Burn it down.
Click to expand...

Burn what down? If it’s not coaching on up, it’s not going to matter, because what ever players are brought in will have the same lame coaching that will hold them back as well. And the same great Wednesday thru Friday practice warriors who can’t convert that to Sundays will be sought after.

If the burning down isn’t coaching and front office, and maybe higher up than that, it’s not going to make one bit of difference.

I don’t think it would take that long for a new staff to come in here and turn things around. There’s a whole lot of teams that have gone from 4-12 one year to the playoffs the next. Some have even gone from 4-12 to the Super Bowl. The 49ers did it last year.

Now it may take a little longer because of the absolute mess this coaching and front office has accumulated, overpaying for average, getting rid of good players, throwing away draft picks left and right, etc. But it can be done.

Just somehow, someway, this spell that OB seems to have on everyone on Kirby has to be broken. Somebody needs to wake the **** up.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Again.....OB's history shows very clearly he burns through QB's and isn't very successful with his offense. Watson has only had one HC, so it's very clear he hasn't burned through HC's but has managed to save a very poor HC/OC's job with his play while overcoming a very poor offensive plan. This is based solely on Watson's W-L record when he has started.
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The QBs Bill has had were not very good with Fitz doing better than his history showed.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Cousins.....talking about a big guaranteed contract to swallow. They could've kept Keenum for a third of what they gave Cousins who hasn't put together a Keenum type of winning season yet.
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But I thought all you need to do is run the WCO and any QB will be successful. That's been the running theme around these parts.
 
Speedy said:
Burn what down? If it’s not coaching on up, it’s not going to matter, because what ever players are brought in will have the same lame coaching that will hold them back as well. And the same great Wednesday thru Friday practice warriors who can’t convert that to Sundays will be sought after.

If the burning down isn’t coaching and front office, and maybe higher up than that, it’s not going to make one bit of difference.

I don’t think it would take that long for a new staff to come in here and turn things around. There’s a whole lot of teams that have gone from 4-12 one year to the playoffs the next. Some have even gone from 4-12 to the Super Bowl. The 49ers did it last year.

Now it may take a little longer because of the absolute mess this coaching and front office has accumulated, overpaying for average, getting rid of good players, throwing away draft picks left and right, etc. But it can be done.

Just somehow, someway, this spell that OB seems to have on everyone on Kirby has to be broken. Somebody needs to wake the **** up.
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Agreed, longer like 4 yrs longer regardless of who the HC is. It is what it is. The McNairs made their decisions on both the HC/QB and there will be no championship's. Only then will it be torn down and then it will take at least another 3 yrs to rebuild it. That's what will be known as the lost decade. But hey at least the McNairs will have made another billion or so by then.
 
Double Barrel said:
You will be unable to find any credible NFL analyst that would put Hoyer and Osweiler in the same boat as Watson.

And Watson is not getting a "pass". He's been paid like an elite player, and the fan base is expecting him to be better. I read and listen to the critical analysis about him every day. And he deserves it when it is clearly his failure.

But he did not design the offensive scheme.

He does not pick the plays.

He does not pick his offensive linemen and does not coach them.

He did not trade away is best WR (one of the best in the league) and he did not pick his under-achieving WRs.

He does not play defense.

So can you possibly even try to stop blaming one player for everything? Do you pay attention or are you just looking for confirmation bias to support your apparent on-going crusade?

Honestly, it seems like you are simply unable to ever be objective about certain subjects. It makes it really hard to take you seriously sometimes with regards to those specific subjects.
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True, but they've gone as far with those guys in this crappy system as they probably ever will with DW4. Ever wonder why?

It's not on one player, but the leader of the team that's making 160 million is supposed to be able to raise the level of his teammates play. DW4 certainly hasn't done that and isn't a championship level QB regardless of who the HC is. Or regardless of scheme. His warts can't be removed.
 
steelbtexan said:
True, but they've gone as far with those guys in this crappy system as they probably ever will with DW4. Ever wonder why?
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'They' only went as far as DW once, that would be with Osweiler, not Hoyer. And they (2016) also had a much weaker schedule, a much better defense, and faced Connor Cook in the WC round.

Ya know, when you actually look into why..
 
Mollywhopper said:
'They' only went as far as DW once, that would be with Osweiler, not Hoyer. And they (2016) also had a much weaker schedule, a much better defense, and faced Connor Cook in the WC round.

Ya know, when you actually look into why..
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Facts are facts

Skew them however you like.
 
steelbtexan said:
They went just as far.

You dont like me, please stop replying to me. I dont want you to ban me.
Click to expand...

They did go just as far, I said as much.

You then asked perhaps why? To which I gave a fact based set of reasons. If any of it is actually skewed please point it out.

I'll reply to whoever I like on a public discussion forum. Just like anyone else here.

I don't think I've ever given you so much as a warning. What a paranoid, bizarre little thing to say.
 
Oorrr, I wanna talk football on a football discussion forum. Wacky idea, I know.

So I responded to an idea and rather than getting any productive response I'm getting run around to avoid the validity of answers. I'm not terribly surprised, just kind of a bummer when we're all hear to try and dive into football related topics for knowledge and entertainment.

I laid out obvious reasons for the 2016 vs 2019 results, in response to your actual question. If you got nothing further there's really no shame in it.
 
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Mollywhopper said:
That's fair. But I was completely accurate in my answer to you that you clearly can't refute.

Cool.
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I

There's a difference between not wanting to engage in conversation with a person who admittedly doesn't like me. (Doing this would be absurd) and refuting this. (Same record is the same record, everything else is just excuses.)

I dont care if they won a SB facing all backup QB's. I just would be thankful for the Lombardi. You on the otherhand would put an asterik by their championship.
 
steelbtexan said:
I

There's a difference between not wanting to engage in conversation with a person who admittedly doesn't like me. (Doing this would be absurd) and refuting this. (Same record is the same record, everything else is just excuses.)

I dont care if they won a SB facing all backup QB's. I just would be thankful for the Lombardi. You on the otherhand would put an asterik by their championship.
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That's a false equivalence, obviously. Not all same records are created equally. Anyone who's watched this, or any other, sport for any amount of time knows this. Brad Johnson is not just as good a qb as Drew Brees even though they both have one ring.

And I wouldn't put an asterisk on a SB for that reason. I don't think I'd put an asterisk on a season for much. Things happen, they always will. But context is a thing, it's a big thing. And it's often times a determining thing.

And so when the question posed was 'ever wonder why' the 2016 and 2019 seasons reached the same playoff exit, if that's actually an honest question, it can be looked into rather evidently the underlying context of the teams and their opponents beyond any one position. Because, barring any out of control biases, well duh.
 
Mollywhopper said:
That's a false equivalence, obviously. Not all same records are created equally. Anyone who's watched this, or any other, sport for any amount of time knows this. Brad Johnson is not just as good a qb as Drew Brees even though they both have one ring.

And I wouldn't put an asterisk on a SB for that reason. I don't think I'd put an asterisk on a season for much. Things happen, they always will. But context is a thing, it's a big thing. And it's often times a determining thing.

And so when the question posed was 'ever wonder why' the 2016 and 2019 seasons reached the same playoff exit, if that's actually an honest question, it can be looked into rather evidently the underlying context of the teams and their opponents beyond any one position. Because, barring any out of control biases, well duh.
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In your mind.
 
Earl34 said:
Agree. Otherwise, when context, facts and stats don't matter, what is left to have a discussion? Just random subjective opinions and talking out your a$$?
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Records are all that matter.

As Bill Parcells once said, you are what your record says you are. Y'all can try to get around this all you want but this is a fact.
 
steelbtexan said:
Records are all that matter.

As Bill Parcells once said, you are what your record says you are. Y'all can try to get around this all you want but this is a fact.
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Okay. Records are all that matters. You keep posting about 6 bad games in a row. Texans were 4-2 in their last six regular season games last year. So, what are you complaining about? Records are all that matters. Right? :kitten:
 
Speedy said:
Burn what down? If it’s not coaching on up, it’s not going to matter, because what ever players are brought in will have the same lame coaching that will hold them back as well. And the same great Wednesday thru Friday practice warriors who can’t convert that to Sundays will be sought after.
Click to expand...

Burn it down includes running OB and his clown posse of coaches out of town too.

I've said that for the better part of 4 years now - OB needs to go - Long before it was the popular opinion. Two years before the "Fire Bill O'Brien Now" thread was made. Kinda like I'm way out in front of the Watson debate.

But OB isn't the only problem , Watson not identifying situations pre snap , holding the ball too long (when there are openings to be had) , that's part of the problem too and not one that's likely to be fixed by a new regime.

Burn it down.
 
Earl34 said:
Okay. Records are all that matters. You keep posting about 6 bad games in a row. Texans were 4-2 in their last six regular season games last year. So, what are you complaining about? Records are all that matters. Right? :kitten:
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Yep, and there will be no championships because regardless of record more games like those will keep popping up against the top teams.
 
Corrosion said:
Burn it down includes running OB and his clown posse of coaches out of town too.

I've said that for the better part of 4 years now - OB needs to go - Long before it was the popular opinion. Two years before the "Fire Bill O'Brien Now" thread was made. Kinda like I'm way out in front of the Watson debate.

But OB isn't the only problem , Watson not identifying situations pre snap , holding the ball too long (when there are openings to be had) , that's part of the problem too and not one that's likely to be fixed by a new regime.

Burn it down.
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That’s coaching and the oline stinks. When a quarterback’s internal clock is all out of whack, what do you expect. The kid has taken a big time beating behind this line and joke of a system.

News flash: They just paid Watson big time therefore, he isn’t going nowhere any time soon. So they will not be burning this thing down completely.
 
steelbtexan said:
Records are all that matter.

As Bill Parcells once said, you are what your record says you are. Y'all can try to get around this all you want but this is a fact.
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I'm 100% certain that when Parcells made this statement, "you are what your record says you are"......it wasn't aimed at one particular player but the entire organization including himself. Or, do you think that statement was aimed at one particular player?
 
Texansballer74 said:
That’s coaching and the oline stinks. When a quarterback’s internal clock is all out of whack, what do you expect. The kid has taken a big time beating behind this line and joke of a system.
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Much of that beating is on Watson himself.

You see more coming than you have blocking .... but you still take a 5 or 7 step drop .... who's that on ?

News flash: They just paid Watson big time therefore, he isn’t going nowhere any time soon. So they will not be burning this thing down completely.
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I know they just paid him $110m guaranteed .... terrible decision IMO - for multiple reasons , some football related , some cap related.
And I realize that we're stuck with him for at least the next two and probably three seasons , I made a post recently responding to @badboy detailing just when and how much it would cost to cut or trade him in each of the seasons beyond this one.
The soonest the team can move on from Watson is after the 2021 season but that comes with huge dead money hits in each of the next two seasons - 2022 Dead Cap: $5.4m & 2023 Dead Cap: $10.8m - and that's assuming he agrees to waive the NTC.

Our only hope in this window where we can't cut ties with Watson is getting rid of OB with the hope that another coach can get more out of him. But I have my doubts about that when much of the problems are pre snap recognition.
 
Corrosion said:
I know - I was comparing Cook to Allen - neither were good , getting past them was no feat of strength.
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I'm not stumping hard for Allen, but they're hardly comparable.

Cook was lucky to find work and likely never will again, for all of Allen's faults he's a legit talented prospect.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
I'm 100% certain that when Parcells made this statement, "you are what your record says you are"......it wasn't aimed at one particular player but the entire organization including himself. Or, do you think that statement was aimed at one particular player?
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Nope and my statement isn't either. A full housecleaning needs to happen as soon as possible because this GM,HC/QB isn't ever going to bring a championship to Kirby. I just wish ownership had the same desire in a championship that the fanbase does.
 
steelbtexan said:
Nope and my statement isn't either. A full housecleaning needs to happen as soon as possible because this GM,HC/QB isn't ever going to bring a championship to Kirby. I just wish ownership had the same desire in a championship that the fanbase does.
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I'm good with your statement until you incessantly lob Watson's name into the conversation as well. I'm not tossing a QB of Watson's caliber or potential to the street until I see him with a better HC, OC and OL coach.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
I'm good with your statement until you incessantly lob Watson's name into the conversation as well. I'm not tossing a QB of Watson's caliber or potential to the street until I see him with a better HC, OC and OL coach.
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Which is why they need to change HC's as soon as possible so you can see for yourself what I've been talking about. Corrosion who probably knows more about QB play than anybody on this MB has come around and is starting to think DW4's warts cant be removed. I guess after 7 bad games in a row that more will come around. This isn't absolving BOB either, I dont think he's a championship quality HC either regardless of whether DW4's his QB or not. One things for sure there will be no championships with the BOB/DW4 combo and I'm betting after a new HC is hired there will be no championships with the new HC/DW4.
 
steelbtexan said:
Which is why they need to change HC's as soon as possible so you can see for yourself what I've been talking about. Corrosion who probably knows more about QB play than anybody on this MB has come around and is starting to think DW4's warts cant be removed. I guess after 7 bad games in a row that more will come around. This isn't absolving BOB either, I dont think he's a championship quality HC either regardless of whether DW4's his QB or not. One things for sure there will be no championships with the BOB/DW4 combo and I'm betting after a new HC is hired there will be no championships with the new HC/DW4.
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Texans have been incapable of building both sides of the ball so one compliments the other. So Watson has 4 more years....let's look at the reality. OB and the Texans are royally screwed for 2021 and he accomplished that all by himself. That leaves 2022, 2023 & 2024 which begs the following question; how many players will still be with the team? I can see a lot of the current young talent bailing on this organization in the hopes of finding a better team.....if OB is still running the show. The only thing that could change this, Watson demanding a trade if OB isn't removed. We all know that he'd never do that nor would the Texans listen if he did.
 
steelbtexan said:
One things for sure there will be no championships with the BOB/DW4 combo and I'm betting after a new HC is hired there will be no championships with the new HC/DW4.
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We should lower our expectations. What do you think about the AFCCG?

Ryan Tannehill & Blake Bortles got to the AFCCG. Surely a "Doug Marrone" type coach can get Watson to the AFCCG.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Texans have been incapable of building both sides of the ball so one compliments the other. So Watson has 4 more years....let's look at the reality. OB and the Texans are royally screwed for 2021 and he accomplished that all by himself. That leaves 2022, 2023 & 2024 which begs the following question; how many players will still be with the team? I can see a lot of the current young talent bailing on this organization in the hopes of finding a better team.....if OB is still running the show. The only thing that could change this, Watson demanding a trade if OB isn't removed. We all know that he'd never do that nor would the Texans listen if he did.
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This year looks bleak .... and with no early draft picks and little to no cap space going into next season , the prospects of a turn around are slim if you ask me - regardless of who the coach is.

We're looking at 2022 before we can expect an infusion of high level talent from the draft and the cap situation for that year is tenuous already with $61.1m in cap space tied up between Watson & Tunsil its hard to expect much help via free agency.

As for "young talent" .... who do they have ? This roster is pretty old aside from Watson & Reid and maybe Akins.
 
thunderkyss said:
We should lower our expectations. What do you think about the AFCCG?

Ryan Tannehill & Blake Bortles got to the AFCCG. Surely a "Doug Marrone" type coach can get Watson to the AFCCG.
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Honestly I think Tannehill is a better QB than Watson ... not a better athlete but a better QB.
No , he's not going to give you as many highlights but he's going to extends drives , score points and eat up clock.
 
Corrosion said:
I know - I was comparing Cook to Allen - neither were good , getting past them was no feat of strength.
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Not a good comparison.

Connor Cook was the 3rd string QB, in his rookie season, drafted 4th round, making his very first start in his career. Whom ended up never making another NFL team.

Josh Allen was the starter for the whole season (and 11 games the previous season) and drafted in 1st round.

Josh Allen was leaps & bounds better than Connor Cook.
 
Corrosion said:
Honestly I think Tannehill is a better QB than Watson ... not a better athlete but a better QB.
No , he's not going to give you as many highlights but he's going to extends drives , score points and eat up clock.
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I think Watson would thrive if you put him on the Titans. I do like Tannehill as a QB and have been very impressed with his play in Tennessee. I think the Tennessee situation is a blue print for success with Watson. I’d like to see our OL improve, I’d like for us to add a stud RB, and at least 1-2 big, physical WRs.
 
otisbean said:
I think Watson would thrive if you put him on the Titans. I do like Tannehill as a QB and have been very impressed with his play in Tennessee. I think the Tennessee situation is a blue print for success with Watson. I’d like to see our OL improve, I’d like for us to add a stud RB, and at least 1-2 big, physical WRs.
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Obviously he's in a better situation .... A strong running game and a solid defense.

That's a recipe for success for most QB's .... couple of mediocre QB's have won superbowls with that recipe. Yeah , Watson would look much better there , how much better is debatable.

Oddly enough , the Texans running game has been better than the Titans thru the first two weeks - Texans 4.3ypc to the Titans 3.7 tho the Titans have a greater volume.
OB has tried to give Watson that strong ground game .... and the results are solid on a per attempt basis.

Went to compare Watson and Tannehill's stats .... The difference is pretty shocking. Watson's stats are more comparable to Gardner Minshew's.

Comp% YPA TD/INT QBR PR
Watson 66.2 7.8 2/2 56.2 87.1
Minshew 73.8 7.4 6/3 66.8 101.3
Tannehill 70.1 7.3 6/0 82.7 120.7

Also looked at some OL stats .... Texans #1 in Run block win rate , 31st in pass block win rate. Nick Martin is in the top ten (#6) for his position group as a pass blocker.
Titus Howard is #2 in RBWR for OT's.

All that cap space and draft capital and this is the suck we get.



76Texan said:
If Tannerhill is a better QB, why didn't he achieve anything with the Dolphins?
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That Miami team was hot garbage , this Texans squad might be as bad ....
 
Corrosion said:
Obviously he's in a better situation .... A strong running game and a solid defense.

That's a recipe for success for most QB's .... couple of mediocre QB's have won superbowls with that recipe. Yeah , Watson would look much better there , how much better is debatable.

Oddly enough , the Texans running game has been better than the Titans thru the first two weeks - Texans 4.3ypc to the Titans 3.7 tho the Titans have a greater volume.
OB has tried to give Watson that strong ground game .... and the results are solid on a per attempt basis.

Went to compare Watson and Tannehill's stats .... The difference is pretty shocking. Watson's stats are more comparable to Gardner Minshew's.

Comp% YPA TD/INT QBR PR
Watson 66.2 7.8 2/2 56.2 87.1
Minshew 73.8 7.4 6/3 66.8 101.3
Tannehill 70.1 7.3 6/0 82.7 120.7

Also looked at some OL stats .... Texans #1 in Run block win rate , 31st in pass block win rate. Nick Martin is in the top ten (#6) for his position group as a pass blocker.
Titus Howard is #2 in RBWR for OT's.

All that cap space and draft capital and this is the suck we get.





That Miami team was hot garbage , this Texans squad might be as bad ....
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I don’t understand some of the stats regarding the OL play. Last season we were top 10 in pass blocking win rate but that didn’t match the eye test. Same with the run blocking this season. With regard to Watson’s numbers This season, we’ve played the 2 best teams in the NFL, got behind quickly and that has to skew the numbers a bit. It’s easier to stop the pass when you know it’s coming, and our OL hasn’t played well at all, that clearly doesn’t help.

With regard to Tenn, I haven’t watch them play this year. I was going off memory from last season. I just know I’d love to have Henry and AJ Brown on our team.

I think OB asks too much of Watson, that combined with an overly complicated system, and poor game planning is causing us to struggle. Earlier this week Clint Stoerner was discussing how complicated our offense was and how they‘re always looking for the “perfect play” and the “perfect blocking scheme” where they have a man for every rusher. He said that doesn’t happen in the NFL, and it’s not what the better offenses do. He said that’s why we don’t play with better pace. It takes us too long to figure everything out at the LOS. He said the more time you spend doing that the less time you have reading the defense. As I was listening I found myself shaking my head in agreement
 
Lol 169 yards total rushing yards in two games. And there’s a stat out there that says we’re #1 in run blocking win rate. Man please stop the madness. You can’t believe in every freaking stat out there.
 
Corrosion said:
Obviously he's in a better situation .... A strong running game and a solid defense.

That's a recipe for success for most QB's .... couple of mediocre QB's have won superbowls with that recipe. Yeah , Watson would look much better there , how much better is debatable.

Oddly enough , the Texans running game has been better than the Titans thru the first two weeks - Texans 4.3ypc to the Titans 3.7 tho the Titans have a greater volume.
OB has tried to give Watson that strong ground game .... and the results are solid on a per attempt basis.

Went to compare Watson and Tannehill's stats .... The difference is pretty shocking. Watson's stats are more comparable to Gardner Minshew's.

Comp% YPA TD/INT QBR PR
Watson 66.2 7.8 2/2 56.2 87.1
Minshew 73.8 7.4 6/3 66.8 101.3
Tannehill 70.1 7.3 6/0 82.7 120.7

Also looked at some OL stats .... Texans #1 in Run block win rate , 31st in pass block win rate. Nick Martin is in the top ten (#6) for his position group as a pass blocker.
Titus Howard is #2 in RBWR for OT's.

All that cap space and draft capital and this is the suck we get.





That Miami team was hot garbage , this Texans squad might be as bad ....
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What makes you think that the Dolphins were hot garbage in Tannerhill's first three years?

Philbin and Sherman were proven offensive mind coaches with individual track record of success in the WCO.

Lamar Miller was no. 3 on the RB depth chart.
A solid running game is the foundation of the WCO, and Tannerhill had got that.
 
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