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Super Bowl XLII: New England Patriots vs. New York Giants

Don't forget Eli Manning CHEATED the NFL draft process, as well. He refused to sign with a team (Chargers) and forced them to trade the pick to the Giants.

I guess some cheating is o.k., like all animals are equal, but some more equal than others. :shades:
 
There's different levels of cheating...

Everytime an Offensive lineman holds a defensive lineman, they are cheating. Sometimes they get called for it... sometimes they don't.

Were the Pats cheating by 'filming' the other teams hand signals? In my mind its a push but probably yes. Is it against the rules? Yes. Do I think other teams do that? Yes. Does that make it right? No. Did this filming help/make them go undefeated in the reg. season? In my mind No.

As much as everyone despises the Patriots, it's hard not to admit that they ARE a very good team. They were the best team during the regular season. Say they are cheaters but that in itself is somewhat ignorant. They match up better than all the other teams in the NFL on paper, and for the most part on the field.

Bottom line is you're blinded by the media and/or hate if you think the Patriots went 18-1 because of 'cheating'.
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
There's different levels of cheating...
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Huh?!?!


cheat �� (cht) KEY �

VERB:
cheat�ed , cheat�ing , cheats
VERB:
tr.

To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
To elude; escape: cheat death.
VERB:
intr.

To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
NOUN:

An act of cheating; a fraud or swindle.
One who cheats; a swindler.
Law Fraudulent acquisition of another's property.
Botany An annual European species of brome grass (Bromus secalinus) widely naturalized in temperate regions.
Click to expand...

I hear you about offensive lineman... But still, either you do, or you do not. No gray area....
 
Double Barrel said:
Don't forget Eli Manning CHEATED the NFL draft process, as well. He refused to sign with a team (Chargers) and forced them to trade the pick to the Giants.
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I don't know if that's so much cheating though, is it?

I'm very hesitant to put a lot of blame on Eli for that because I don't know all the backdoor negotions and talk were between both teams, owners, agents, etc.

SD was pretty bad back then, true. Eli met with the Giants organization repeatidly and really liked everything about them from the top down to the bottom. Eli obviously wanted to play for the Giants and the Giants obviously wanted Eli to play for them. Seems to me that San Diego was unwilling to negotiate a reasonable trade with NY (#1 to #4) so Eli pulled the ultimate trump card....he says 'enough with the bull$h*t, quit clowning around...if yall aren't going to get a deal done my agent and I will.'

Question is: If Philip Rivers wasn't available would the sign and trade deal still have happened? Say Rivers was selected at #2 to Oakland. Wonder what the actual deal was... but SD wanted a QB.

NY has been questioned whether that was a good trade or not for almost 4 years now. Atleast Mario settled our debate in less than 2 years!!!!
 
Texan_Bill said:
Huh?!?!




I hear you about offensive lineman... But still, either you do, or you do not. No gray area....
Click to expand...

I hear you and I guess I'm speaking in generalizations. A wrong is a wrong. Speeding is against the law but so is murder. Doesn't mean the are equal! Holding is cheating, but so is fixing games...I don't think they are equal.. (diff. punishments for diff. crimes ~ diff. levels of cheating/crime?) This is getting too...'political' for lack of better words- enough

Way to go Giants!
 
nfl_rt_brady_600.jpg


This image reminds me of something.....

romo-large.jpg
 
you CAN look at the other team's signals with your own eyes. thats been going on forever. the thing is now with the technology cheaply available today you can film so easily and you want to maintain the spirit of the game and not let whispering devices, zoom lenses, and other high tech spy gadgetry destroy the fabric of the game. Belichik crossed the line and he paid for it (though not enough). Belichik showed how much character and how much of a man he was by walking off the field before the game ended. Freaking pathetic so why is anyone surprised a man of that ilk cheated?

everyone tries to get an advantage but some have class and know what is acceptable and utterly diplorable. I think they should fine the guy for walking off the field before the 0:00 mark. That was damaging to a fine closely fought game. It hurt the league and if you want to hold players accountable for their actions, do it to the coaches as well.
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
I hear you and I guess I'm speaking in generalizations. A wrong is a wrong. Speeding is against the law but so is murder. Doesn't mean the are equal! Holding is cheating, but so is fixing games...I don't think they are equal.. (diff. punishments for diff. crimes ~ diff. levels of cheating/crime?) This is getting too...'political' for lack of better words- enough

Way to go Giants!
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You're right.. It just sounded funny to me whenever I first read it. But yes, I agree. There are infractions that are a part of every down, and, there are infractions that can test the boundaries of the game's 'integrity'....
 
idk if you all remember how im a pats fan....but words dont describe my emotions

its funny you found a link to patriotsplanet.net

that is my home site
and you may or may not of quoted me
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
I don't know if that's so much cheating though, is it?
Click to expand...

If you read Texan Bill's definition, I'd say it qualifies under "To violate rules deliberately".

The rules of the draft are the worst team gets the top pick. It has always been this way. Players do NOT have the luxury of choosing what teams they want to play for before the draft. Can you imagine the breakdown in the system if all the top picks pulled this stunt? Heck, who wants to go to the Dolphins in 2008?! But whoever is chosen first is obligated to do so regardless of their personal feelings. Thems the rules that 99.999% of players follow. (That 0.0001%, of course, is Eli.)

Just like I would be cheating on my taxes if I avoided paying them, Eli cheated the NFL draft by circumventing the process by violating rules deliberately.
 
Second Honeymoon said:
everyone tries to get an advantage but some have class and know what is acceptable and utterly diplorable. I think they should fine the guy for walking off the field before the 0:00 mark. That was damaging to a fine closely fought game. It hurt the league and if you want to hold players accountable for their actions, do it to the coaches as well.
Click to expand...

They would need to go back and fine allot of coaches and players in the past because it happens all of the time. Guy thinks the game is over (which it usually is) and they walk out and say there congrats and walk off. Time may still be running. The clock even ran to 0:00 at one point and they reset it back to one. So now the coaches need a guy on the sidelines to tell them the official time? I agree with TB on this one. If they guy walk out says his congrats only to find out a meaningless 1 second is still on the clock before a kneel should he really return to his sideline, wait it out and then go back though the same BS? Not likely. It seemed more like he wanted to hang his head and sulk which is his prerogative but to question his sportsmanship after he did everything you are supposed to is kind of silly.
 
This just in from the American Medical Association


If you find yourself choking and unable to breathe, it is no longer suggested that you hold your hands around your throat and point to your back to request a Heimlich Maneuver. Simply display the Patriots logo prominently.



:cool:
 
Double Barrel said:
The rules of the draft are the worst team gets the top pick. It has always been this way. Players do NOT have the luxury of choosing what teams they want to play for before the draft. Can you imagine the breakdown in the system if all the top picks pulled this stunt? Heck, who wants to go to the Dolphins in 2008?! But whoever is chosen first is obligated to do so regardless of their personal feelings. Thems the rules that 99.999% of players follow. (That 0.0001%, of course, is Eli.)
Click to expand...

That would be 'chaos' and would be a horrible thing for the NFL and draft for sure.

The only thing is I really don't remember/know a lot about what all went on regarding the pick/trade. What's the rule that goes 'usually the most simplest explanation is the correct one'? That surely could be the case, but gut instinct tells me it wasn't as simple as the general public likes to state, "Eli is a whiney baby and demanded a trade. PS, His daddy was onboard too and actually circumvented all the rules cuz he could cuz he's a Manning."

I remember Eli stating how he really didn't want to play for the chargers... shoot, Jay Leno finally got it out of him finally on his show. I'd just really like to know the details. Unfortunately that probably will never happen.
 
Sorry, seems I'm the only one really interested in this but just FYI! haha

Behind the scenes
ESPN reported that immediately before the draft, Chargers' General Manager A.J. Smith refused the Giants' offer that consisted of three 2004 first day picks, and 2nd and 3rd round picks in 2005. Smith had demanded Giants defensive end Osi Umenyiora be part of the deal, and Giants general manager Ernie Accorsi would not permit it. Finally, after the Giants had made the move to draft Rivers, Smith agreed to an all-pick trade without Umenyiora. Smith called Accorsi to make a deal. Part of the deal was that the Giants would select quarterback Philip Rivers out of North Carolina State University with the #4 pick overall and trade that pick, plus other selections (including the Giants #1 pick the following year), to the Chargers for Manning's rights and additional considerations.[3] Smith submitted his desire for Philip Rivers, the Giants' 2005 1st round pick, and both the Giants' 2004 3rd round pick and 2005 5th round pick. Accorsi initially refused, but after Smith closed talks, Accorsi accepted the offer and the NFL finalized it.

Giants received
Rights to 2004 1st Overall Pick, Eli Manning.

Chargers received
Rights to 2004 4th Overall Pick, Philip Rivers.
2005 1st Round Draft Pick - Used to draft and sign Linebacker Shawne Merriman.
2004 3rd Round Draft Pick - Used to draft and sign Kicker Nate Kaeding.
2005 5th Round Draft Pick - Traded to Tampa Bay Buccaneers for Left Tackle Roman Oben.
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manning-Rivers_trade
 
The Chargers didn't make out too bad in that deal. They ended up with Merriman and Rivers.

BTW, someone might have mentioned Patriots Planet because it is our rival Patriots site as part of the F2Fa.com network that both this site and that one belongs to.

For the record I am not a Patriots "hater" although there were starting to get a little arrogant. I was rooting for the Giants because I root for them every week (unless they are playing the Texans and the Texans need the game). I used to live in Albany, NY and north Delaware just a couple of hours from Giants stadium. I am also a huge NY Rangers fan, they passed the Bruins in points yesterday. ;)
 
Double Barrel said:
Don't forget Eli Manning CHEATED the NFL draft process, as well. He refused to sign with a team (Chargers) and forced them to trade the pick to the Giants.

I guess some cheating is o.k., like all animals are equal, but some more equal than others. :shades:
Click to expand...

thats not OK either, thats weak crap..... but when you have leverage like that you can use it, it was more of a deal he made, as in "if you draft me, i wont play" not exactly cheating just being a bit spoiled....
 
vv
Double Barrel said:
If you read Texan Bill's definition, I'd say it qualifies under "To violate rules deliberately".

The rules of the draft are the worst team gets the top pick. It has always been this way. Players do NOT have the luxury of choosing what teams they want to play for before the draft. Can you imagine the breakdown in the system if all the top picks pulled this stunt? Heck, who wants to go to the Dolphins in 2008?! But whoever is chosen first is obligated to do so regardless of their personal feelings. Thems the rules that 99.999% of players follow. (That 0.0001%, of course, is Eli.)

Just like I would be cheating on my taxes if I avoided paying them, Eli cheated the NFL draft by circumventing the process by violating rules deliberately.
Click to expand...


like is said in the above, Eli made more of an altumatum than cheat, he just wined untill he got his way. There is a HUGE difference....

and the taxes thing is a bad analogy, you dont have services that the government would like to use that dont envolve paying them money, like winning a war or somthing....(im assuming, maybe your superman, but i dont know)
 
I haven't had a chance to comment on the game but I really enjoyed it and love great defense...Manning's last drive and sack escape reminded me of Steve McNair's drive at the end of the game vs the Rams in the SB a few years back when he made a similar play to escape a sack as well...'cept of course that Eli made his play at the goal line and time ran out on McNair. Tremendous game.
 
WesmanTexanfan said:
thats not OK either, thats weak crap..... but when you have leverage like that you can use it, it was more of a deal he made, as in "if you draft me, i wont play" not exactly cheating just being a bit spoiled....
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So then you're cool with ANY/ALL players refusing to play for a team that has the draft pick?

What's the point of the NFL draft then? Why not just ask these college kids what teams they like, and they let the GMs and agents work it out?

Funny how you excuse away someone cheating the system when it is in defense of your point.

Speculation was high that the San Diego Chargers would trade the No. 1 pick, inasmuch that Manning had spent the last several days letting the team know that for reasons not fully explained, he absolutely and positively would not serve if asked. Fans lustily booed him when he was individually introduced with several other potential top picks shortly before the draft began.
-----------------------
And no, he said, he had no intention of ever playing for the Chargers. Yes, he said, he would sit out the entire season if necessary. Maybe even go to graduate school. Wait for a godsend of a trade. Anything but report to San Diego.

- Source (USA Today)
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Here is a good article that points out the importance of the draft for building teams and what it means to the league:

Eli Manning did the NFL a disservice

The Chargers did draft Eli. Anybody who says they then were forced to deal him as they did is mistaken. They held negotiation title to him, to do with as they wished. They could have tested how firm Manning was in his resolve and permitted him to twist slowly in the wind, but to do that would have been to chance getting nothing from the draft's No. 1 choice. Besides, Philip Rivers was out there. Title to Manning went to the New York Giants, as he had to have hoped it would.

If the draft's procedures were so repugnant to Eli, he should not have made himself eligible for it. We play by the rules in this country, and he knew the rules. He exempted himself from the spirit of the rules, for reasons that he has not disclosed except in the vaguest of terms. The decision was wholly his, he contends, which I cannot accept. Whoever made it, whether it was the Manning family or the player's agent, Tom Condon, did the NFL no service. The NFL is a lesser thing when its college draft is made meaningless.
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He circumvented the rules. Most of us call that cheating the system. Perhaps you just lack these standards of judgement, I don't know unless I take you for face value of your words.

p.s. the taxes example was not a metaphor or an anology. It was to show that the word "cheating" can be seen in many different perspectives.
 
Texan_Bill said:
Not at all... John Elway, Jim 'Krissy' Everett and Eli... :bat:
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Bo Jackson did the same thing I believe. He didn't want to play for Tampa who drafted him, so he sat out a year and played pro Baseball, and re-entered the NFL draft the next year.

I don't hold it against any of those guys. It's all about leverage and just how good of a player you are. The Manning / Rivers deal worked out well for both teams. The Giants got the guy they wanted and Manning was happy, and the Chargers got Rivers and a bunch of Draft Picks and have a solid team. It very well could have been a Chargers / Giants superbowl this year. Both those teams are going to be favorites for 2009.
 
4Texans said:
Bo Jackson did the same thing I believe. He didn't want to play for Tampa who drafted him, so he sat out a year and played pro Baseball, and re-entered the NFL draft the next year.

I don't hold it against any of those guys. It's all about leverage and just how good of a player you are. The Manning / Rivers deal worked out well for both teams. The Giants got the guy they wanted and Manning was happy, and the Chargers got Rivers and a bunch of Draft Picks and have a solid team. It very well could have been a Chargers / Giants superbowl this year. Both those teams are going to be favorites for 2009.
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I hear ya.. I have some of the same feelings towards Bo, but the difference being, Elway had no intention of playing baseball.. Bo was more than happy to play, evidenced by the fact that he continued to play baseball when he re-entered the NFL draft...
 
It just to show you what a good defense can do. The Texans defense could eventually grow into a defense that could dominate.

:fans:
 
Texan_Bill said:
I hear ya.. I have some of the same feelings towards Bo, but the difference being, Elway had no intention of playing baseball.. Bo was more than happy to play, evidenced by the fact that he continued to play baseball when he re-entered the NFL draft...
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Bo Jackson loved baseball and was just a phenomenal talent. He had a Mark Whiten arm, Lou Brock speed, and Barry Bonds power. The epitome of a 5-tool player.

Eli big leagued the Chargers but both franchises benefitted in the end. Not so much for the Elway trade. Jackson gets a pass on this because he had real options in baseball whereas Elway would have lanquished in the minors for a few years and the signing money for baseball players was not what it is today.
 
Texas4Some said:
It just to show you what a good defense can do. The Texans defense could eventually grow into a defense that could dominate.

:fans:
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QFT. With a few good moves here and there, we could really improve our team. We arent far away and the Giants situation just goes to show you that anything can happen. They lost Tiki and then Shockey gets injured and then the team starts playing well. Their DL just began to dominate games and their DC wasnt afraid to blitz even though their secondary is undermanned and injured. Maybe their DC actually has a pair....
 
Second Honeymoon said:
Bo Jackson loved baseball and was just a phenomenal talent. He had a Mark Whiten arm, Lou Brock speed, and Barry Bonds power. The epitome of a 5-tool player.

Eli big leagued the Chargers but both franchises benefitted in the end. Not so much for the Elway trade. Jackson gets a pass on this because he had real options in baseball whereas Elway would have lanquished in the minors for a few years and the signing money for baseball players was not what it is today.
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Kudos!! Exactly my point about Jackson v. Elway and baseball.

************************************************

At least the trade of Jim 'Krissy' Everett netted the Oilers more than the Rams got out of that deal:
Kent Hill, William Fuller (stud) and three draft choices (two firsts and a fifth):
Alonzo Highsmith
Spencer Tillman
Terry McDaniel


Jim Everett had a decent career, but in addition to the players mentioned above, the Oilers had already signed Warren Moon a couple of seasons prior.
 
Farough said:
He may have looked better then Brady but theres no way he was the MVP of the ballgame.
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all the defensive hits would have been for naught had Eli not marched the team down the field for the go-ahead score--a TD, mind you, not just a FG like some other QB made his name off of.
 
Posted by Double Barrel
So then you're cool with ANY/ALL players refusing to play for a team that has the draft pick?

What's the point of the NFL draft then? Why not just ask these college kids what teams they like, and they let the GMs and agents work it out?

Funny how you excuse away someone cheating the system when it is in defense of your point.
Click to expand...

no im not cool with it, but he was in control and did nothing illeagal, he was just acting like a big baby.....

now if the giants had given him x amount of money under the table to hold out and get traded to them, THAT would be cheating....
 
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