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State of the O-line

dream_team said:
I think our OL can be really good, but its floor is average. Which is saying alot considering what we've been through.

For me, the jury is still out on Sharping. He was making rookie mistakes last season, so of course, he can easily improve w/ experience. I hope Devlin is the right teacher.

Nick Martin is an overpaid, average center.

Fulton is the weak link of the crew, but at least he's not overpaid now.

I like our tackles. I think the penalties for Tunsil was a fluke. I also think Tytus is a future pro-bowler. My one concern for Tytus is him becoming "injury prone". No evidence, just a hunch.

I'm even ok with our backups in Mancz, Johnson and Kelemete. (not factoring in Heck for now).

To me, the biggest weak spot is Devlin. When I watch this OL, I see a confused group when it comes to blitzes. Hopefully the problem all this time was simply continuity.
Click to expand...
Most everybody on this Board obviously including you don't think Devlin is at all valuable as our OL coach. Me ? I dunno enough about Ofensive Line play to reach an informed
opinion.
So this will be Devlins 6th year here in Houston and surely O'Brien would have upgraded this position on his staff if Devlin is no better than folks in these parts think he is ?
Now I do think O'Brien is a total failure as a GM but as an NFL HC I think he's reasonably competent and would have figured out by now he's got a real loser in a key role in his staff ?
 
dream_team said:
...To me, the biggest weak spot is Devlin. When I watch this OL, I see a confused group when it comes to blitzes. Hopefully the problem all this time was simply continuity.
Click to expand...
I don't see the link between Devlin and blitzes. Players watch film, the blitzes are discussed in meetings. But it is intirely the players ability to learn from what they are seeing on film and discussing in meetings. Then, under game conditions, they have to have the ability to recognize in real time what they have seen on film and have to have the ability to react to what they are seeing. Coaching can only do so much.
 
Number19 said:
I don't see the link between Devlin and blitzes. Players watch film, the blitzes are discussed in meetings. But it is intirely the players ability to learn from what they are seeing on film and discussing in meetings. Then, under game conditions, they have to have the ability to recognize in real time what they have seen on film and have to have the ability to react to what they are seeing. Coaching can only do so much.
Click to expand...
And who is supposed to be pointing out and calling out Blitz?
 
Who in their right mind would think a young quarterback will be able to set up all of his protection. Especially when you know darn well in college he was running a totally different offense. Martin the center who has been in this system longer should be calling out the protection for the offensive line. I thought that was one of the reason why they gave him that hefty extension.
 
Texansballer74 said:
Who in their right mind would think a young quarterback will be able to set up all of his protection. Especially when you know darn well in college he was running a totally different offense. Martin the center who has been in this system longer should be calling out the protection for the offensive line. I thought that was one of the reason why they gave him that hefty extension.
Click to expand...

How many yrs before he will be able to call out protections well on a regular basis? 4yrs/6 yrs/10 yrs?
 
steelbtexan said:
How many yrs before he will be able to call out protections well on a regular basis? 4yrs/6 yrs/10 yrs?
Click to expand...

How many years did it take Peyton Manning? Hint. Jeff Saturday made the OL calls for the Colts. So a QB making the OL calls is not a prerequisite or an indicator of anything you might suggest.

As @JB and @KoolAid Sipper pointed out earlier, too many times, it's the post snap stunts that are giving the OL fits. At some point, regardless of the protection call, the OL has to be able to consistently handle stunts.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...standing-jeff-saturday-and-the-offensive-line
 
Earl34 said:
How many years did it take Peyton Manning? Hint. Jeff Saturday made the OL calls for the Colts. Also, as someone pointed out. At some point, regardless of the protection call, the OL has to be able to consistently handle stunts.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...standing-jeff-saturday-and-the-offensive-line
Click to expand...

Peyton seemed to do ok with the Broncos. I guess he had pretty good centers throughout his career. Or maybe Manning did make some of the ol calls. Omaha/Omaha

Comparing DW4 to Manning is laughable.
 
steelbtexan said:
Peyton seemed to do ok with the Broncos. I guess he had pretty good centers throughout his career. Or maybe Manning did make some of the ol calls. Omaha/Omaha

Comparing DW4 to Manning is laughable.
Click to expand...

Who compared Watson to Manning? It wasn't a comparison. I used Manning as the example because by all accounts, he was one of the smartest QBs in NFL history and he didn't make the OL calls.

As far as Omaha, according to Manning:
“Omaha was just a indicator word,” Manning said to the crowd. “It was a trigger word that meant we had changed the play, there was low time on the clock, and that ball needed to be snapped right now to kind of let my offensive lineman know that ‘Hey, we'd gone to Plan B, there's low time on the clock.’ It's a rhythmic three-syllable word, ‘O-ma-ha, set hut.’”

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/4/12/15279674/peyton-manning-omaha-why-does-he-say-it-broncos-colts
 
Earl34 said:
Who compared Watson to Manning? It wasn't a comparison. I used Manning as the example because by all accounts, he was one of the smartest QBs in NFL history and he didn't make the OL calls.
Click to expand...

I realize this.

But that's not the question, the question is when will DW4 figure it out like Brady/Big Ben/Jimmy G etc... have?
 
steelbtexan said:
Comparing DW4 to Brady?

Delusional
Click to expand...

SB no one is comparing DW to Manning or Brady, they’re just pointing out that a) Manning didn’t make OL calls and that b) Brady makes errors as well. It seems as if you’re jumping to conclusions when reading their posts.

BTW, you asked in a post above when will DW figure out like several QBs have and you specifically mentioned Jimmy G. I did a google search for JG and OL calls and found an interesting article

ftw.usatoday.com

Jimmy Garoppolo isn't a game manager ... he's a system QB

And why that matters for Super Bowl 54.
ftw.usatoday.com ftw.usatoday.com

here’s a couple quotes that I found interesting

“Now, I’m sure Garoppolo is a smart dude off the field. This has nothing to do with him as a person or even his general hotness. But on the field, he does need a little extra help when it comes to the mental aspect of playing the quarterback position. And Kyle Shanahan’s offense provides him with that help. The play designs do the “thinking” for Garoppolo, and he just has to make a quick either/or decision and throw a pretty ball, which, as we’ve covered, he’s perfectly capable of doing.”

and this

”These little tweaks are what make Shanahan’s offense so good. He gives the defense a different picture every time but for Garoppolo, it’s the same read over and over again.”

I think this ties into what a lot of us have said over DWs career. You yourself have said that DW had success in the Clemson offense where he had simple reads ect... Then he comes to the NFL, where by numerous accounts, he’s playing in a very complex offense requiring everyone to be on the same page all the time. He’s apparently responsible for OL calls as well, which some of the smartest guys in the league didn’t do. Keep in mind, he’s only played for 2.5 seasons. I understand some of the frustration when he makes mistakes but it seems like he jumped from geometry to advanced calculus and you’re frustrated that he hasn’t mastered it in 2.5 years. Heck if anyone compares him to other top QBs it’s you. In a post above you asked “when is he going to figure it out like Brady, Big Ben, and Jimmy G have“. Those guys have waaay more experience then DW. Even Jimmy G has been in the league for 6 years, and he apparently plays in an offense that makes the game easy for him.

I think even the most ardent DW supporters would admit he has things to improve upon, as all young players do. I think what most of us would love to see is his coach help him out a bit more as some of the top offensive coaches in the game do for their QBs
 
otisbean said:
SB no one is comparing DW to Manning or Brady, they’re just pointing out that a) Manning didn’t make OL calls and that b) Brady makes errors as well. It seems as if you’re jumping to conclusions when reading their posts.

BTW, you asked in a post above when will DW figure out like several QBs have and you specifically mentioned Jimmy G. I did a google search for JG and OL calls and found an interesting article

ftw.usatoday.com

Jimmy Garoppolo isn't a game manager ... he's a system QB

And why that matters for Super Bowl 54.
ftw.usatoday.com ftw.usatoday.com

here’s a couple quotes that I found interesting

“Now, I’m sure Garoppolo is a smart dude off the field. This has nothing to do with him as a person or even his general hotness. But on the field, he does need a little extra help when it comes to the mental aspect of playing the quarterback position. And Kyle Shanahan’s offense provides him with that help. The play designs do the “thinking” for Garoppolo, and he just has to make a quick either/or decision and throw a pretty ball, which, as we’ve covered, he’s perfectly capable of doing.”

and this

”These little tweaks are what make Shanahan’s offense so good. He gives the defense a different picture every time but for Garoppolo, it’s the same read over and over again.”

I think this ties into what a lot of us have said over DWs career. You yourself have said that DW had success in the Clemson offense where he had simple reads ect... Then he comes to the NFL, where by numerous accounts, he’s playing in a very complex offense requiring everyone to be on the same page all the time. He’s apparently responsible for OL calls as well, which some of the smartest guys in the league didn’t do. Keep in mind, he’s only played for 2.5 seasons. I understand some of the frustration when he makes mistakes but it seems like he jumped from geometry to advanced calculus and you’re frustrated that he hasn’t mastered it in 2.5 years. Heck if anyone compares him to other top QBs it’s you. In a post above you asked “when is he going to figure it out like Brady, Big Ben, and Jimmy G have“. Those guys have waaay more experience then DW. Even Jimmy G has been in the league for 6 years, and he apparently plays in an offense that makes the game easy for him.

I think even the most ardent DW supporters would admit he has things to improve upon, as all young players do. I think what most of us would love to see is his coach help him out a bit more as some of the top offensive coaches in the game do for their QBs
Click to expand...


Jimmy G & Shanahan are running Gary's WCO …. Any QB who's ever played in that system will tell you its a QB's best friend.

I think it suits Watson perfectly. He's mobile and can take advantage of the stuff designed to get him out of the pocket , he can get the ball out quick when the routes demand it & he's very accurate on the deep ball and he'd get a lot of opportunities to do that from play action.

The only issue is if he can operate under center. So far we haven't seen that and there's really only one reason a QB isn't under center and that's a question of vision. I'd go deeper into that theory but it would be fruitless ….
 
otisbean said:
SB no one is comparing DW to Manning or Brady, they’re just pointing out that a) Manning didn’t make OL calls and that b) Brady makes errors as well. It seems as if you’re jumping to conclusions when reading their posts.

BTW, you asked in a post above when will DW figure out like several QBs have and you specifically mentioned Jimmy G. I did a google search for JG and OL calls and found an interesting article

ftw.usatoday.com

Jimmy Garoppolo isn't a game manager ... he's a system QB

And why that matters for Super Bowl 54.
ftw.usatoday.com ftw.usatoday.com

here’s a couple quotes that I found interesting

“Now, I’m sure Garoppolo is a smart dude off the field. This has nothing to do with him as a person or even his general hotness. But on the field, he does need a little extra help when it comes to the mental aspect of playing the quarterback position. And Kyle Shanahan’s offense provides him with that help. The play designs do the “thinking” for Garoppolo, and he just has to make a quick either/or decision and throw a pretty ball, which, as we’ve covered, he’s perfectly capable of doing.”

and this

”These little tweaks are what make Shanahan’s offense so good. He gives the defense a different picture every time but for Garoppolo, it’s the same read over and over again.”

I think this ties into what a lot of us have said over DWs career. You yourself have said that DW had success in the Clemson offense where he had simple reads ect... Then he comes to the NFL, where by numerous accounts, he’s playing in a very complex offense requiring everyone to be on the same page all the time. He’s apparently responsible for OL calls as well, which some of the smartest guys in the league didn’t do. Keep in mind, he’s only played for 2.5 seasons. I understand some of the frustration when he makes mistakes but it seems like he jumped from geometry to advanced calculus and you’re frustrated that he hasn’t mastered it in 2.5 years. Heck if anyone compares him to other top QBs it’s you. In a post above you asked “when is he going to figure it out like Brady, Big Ben, and Jimmy G have“. Those guys have waaay more experience then DW. Even Jimmy G has been in the league for 6 years, and he apparently plays in an offense that makes the game easy for him.

I think even the most ardent DW supporters would admit he has things to improve upon, as all young players do. I think what most of us would love to see is his coach help him out a bit more as some of the top offensive coaches in the game do for their QBs
Click to expand...

It's refreshing to see a great post in TT. Well said!
 
Go back in watch the Atlanta game again and you will see Watson operating under center a few times. This is the 2nd time I’ve read a comment from you regarding to Watson being able to do that. Yes he can the main problem is can the coaching staff trust the line? Maybe that could be a reason why they don’t have him operating under center often.
 
Corrosion said:
Jimmy G & Shanahan are running Gary's WCO …. Any QB who's ever played in that system will tell you its a QB's best friend.

I think it suits Watson perfectly. He's mobile and can take advantage of the stuff designed to get him out of the pocket , he can get the ball out quick when the routes demand it & he's very accurate on the deep ball and he'd get a lot of opportunities to do that from play action.

The only issue is if he can operate under center. So far we haven't seen that and there's really only one reason a QB isn't under center and that's a question of vision. I'd go deeper into that theory but it would be fruitless ….
Click to expand...

This might help. Some very interesting analyses.........a must read for anyone interested in the nuances of a QB's snap position.

************************************************************************************************

Shotgun v. Under Center - is there really a difference in performance by Manning?
By Laurie Lattimore-Volkmann@docllv on Oct 26, 2015, 4:03pm MDT 83

If you all have learned anything, it is that there is no way I (Laurie) would actually be writing a post breaking down plays and statistics :)

But to help FrenchFred post his thoughts on some statistics regarding Peyton Manning's performance in the shotgun versus under center, I gladly obliged to create the post. For questions/debate on anything after my intro, you will need to talk to him (including any potential complaints on not only no "Whorfin" option in the poll, but NO POLL whatsoever!) :)
They're all yours, FrenchFred!

Is Peyton Manning really that bad Under Center? Is he really Shotgun-reliant as most are saying?
First, I would like to thank Laurie for taking the time to find me useful data regarding the subject and helping me publish this article with a nice presentation.

Second, all the data is based on Manning's split stats available on Pro-Football-References, which divides "shotgun" and "under center" explicitly (not available on ESPN) but does not distinguish between the shotgun or pistol formations.
Third, The data might not be 100 percent exact if you compared it to the 2013 stats provided in this 2014 PFF article orESPN split stats. For example:

  • number of pass attempts Under Center is 93 on the PFF article when it's 91 with the datas available on ESPN and 100 on Pro-football-reference
  • number of completion is 60 for PFF and ESPN, and 67 for Pro-Football-Reference
  • number of TDs is 13 for PFF and ESPN, and 12 for Pro-Football-Reference
  • number of INT is 0 for the 3 websites

I began my research with ESPN, but as I was limited to the year 2008 and after, I turned to Pro-Football-Reference, which is much more complete (gives directly the snaps Under Center and gives information from Peyton Manning's rookie year)

As a short introduction to the important part, here is how I see the differences between taking a snap under center or in the shotgun from a QB's point of view (and I base these differences on quick throws since I consider the difference between the two to be erased when keeping the ball more than 2 to 2.5 seconds).

To put it simply, I see the Under Center formation as "eyes to brain to arm" process, where the Shotgun is more of a "brain to eyes to arm" process.

The Under Center formation allows the QB to take visual information of the very first movement of the defense while receiving the ball. That first information is analyzed while the QB is dropping back to either hand off the ball to the running back or to prepare for the throw. That first information gives the quarterback the indication of where he will orient his throw, going for his first option or directly going to his second or third one). He will then deliver the ball with his arm while his eyes confirm his first information. So "eyes to brain to arm" process.

The Shotgun allows the quarterback to scan the whole field easier and process the movement of the defense before the snap. The QB will have his strategy prepared in advance and will have to rely on it to make his quick throw. Why will he rely on it? It's because as soon as he gives the signal to snap the ball, he will be concentrated on receiving the ball, which will tunnel his vision. As soon as he receives the ball, he will quickly scan the field in direction to the predetermined place he is supposed to throw the ball and will throw almost in the same time. Hence, "brain to eyes to arm" process.

This nuance between the two processes is the reason why in the NFL an experienced QB can destroy a not perfectly organized defense just with his pre-snap read in the shotgun. Meanwhile a young QB will have to use the Under Center formation (or have specific plays allowing him to compensate his lack of experience, like the read-option) to react to the movements of the defense more than act according to his pre-snap read.

That nuance is also the reason why you hear everyone say "he was looking at X receiver the whole time" when he is in shotgun formation even for very quick throws.

Before I give you figures to think about, I want to say that not one strategy is better than the other - both need to be implemented in the playbook and both have their advantages/disadvantages, their own variants depending on the talent of the quarterback's teammates, on the down/distance and clock situation, etc..

If you still don't trust my appreciation of the nuances between Shotgun and Under Center, here is the recap of the percentage for each formation from 1998 to 2015 (early on, Manning played a bunch of time Under Center):
FF graph 1

Now the fun part - is Manning really much better in one formation than the other?
The short answer is that yes, he is much better Under Center as this table shows:
FF 2

*Side note: for those screaming; "let him play the no-huddle all the time," I intentionally left the percentage of Huddle/No Huddle he played his entire career. As it's not part of my article, I'll just stop at that on this subject...
*Fun fact: PM has run for 18 TDs his entire career...
Click to expand...

Globally, Manning has a better QB rating - more TDs (passing and running), a better Y/A (yards/attempts), and fewer INTs - while spending 41% of the time Under Center.

The good point regarding his Shotgun formation is mainly his completion percentage and the number of first downs.

THE REST OF THE STORY
 
otisbean said:
SB no one is comparing DW to Manning or Brady, they’re just pointing out that a) Manning didn’t make OL calls and that b) Brady makes errors as well. It seems as if you’re jumping to conclusions when reading their posts.

BTW, you asked in a post above when will DW figure out like several QBs have and you specifically mentioned Jimmy G. I did a google search for JG and OL calls and found an interesting article

ftw.usatoday.com

Jimmy Garoppolo isn't a game manager ... he's a system QB

And why that matters for Super Bowl 54.
ftw.usatoday.com ftw.usatoday.com

here’s a couple quotes that I found interesting

“Now, I’m sure Garoppolo is a smart dude off the field. This has nothing to do with him as a person or even his general hotness. But on the field, he does need a little extra help when it comes to the mental aspect of playing the quarterback position. And Kyle Shanahan’s offense provides him with that help. The play designs do the “thinking” for Garoppolo, and he just has to make a quick either/or decision and throw a pretty ball, which, as we’ve covered, he’s perfectly capable of doing.”

and this

”These little tweaks are what make Shanahan’s offense so good. He gives the defense a different picture every time but for Garoppolo, it’s the same read over and over again.”

I think this ties into what a lot of us have said over DWs career. You yourself have said that DW had success in the Clemson offense where he had simple reads ect... Then he comes to the NFL, where by numerous accounts, he’s playing in a very complex offense requiring everyone to be on the same page all the time. He’s apparently responsible for OL calls as well, which some of the smartest guys in the league didn’t do. Keep in mind, he’s only played for 2.5 seasons. I understand some of the frustration when he makes mistakes but it seems like he jumped from geometry to advanced calculus and you’re frustrated that he hasn’t mastered it in 2.5 years. Heck if anyone compares him to other top QBs it’s you. In a post above you asked “when is he going to figure it out like Brady, Big Ben, and Jimmy G have“. Those guys have waaay more experience then DW. Even Jimmy G has been in the league for 6 years, and he apparently plays in an offense that makes the game easy for him.

I think even the most ardent DW supporters would admit he has things to improve upon, as all young players do. I think what most of us would love to see is his coach help him out a bit more as some of the top offensive coaches in the game do for their QBs
Click to expand...

Agreed,

Jimmy G also played very well in the Pats system. Now that he's playing with Shanny the system is easier for him. (BTW, Jimmy G has started around the same number of games that DW4 has) The QB's I listed were off of the top of my head and I get what you're saying. I like the EP system better than the WC system because it allows for more big plays. (A DW4 strength.) Plenty of QB's throughout the yrs have learned how to play within the EP system (Every QB that's played for Coughlin as an example) this isn't brain surgery. The troublesome thing is not just for me but it should trouble others is DW4 hasn't really improved in the area we are talking about. (Here comes the DW4 crowd with he unlikes.) Maybe I'm expecting too much be expecting DW4 to be much further ahead of where he is after 21/2 yrs of playing time and over 3 yrs of studying this offense.

Would you say I'm setting unrealistic expectations? I look at guys like Mahomes/Jimmy G/Murray etc... and they seem to be alot further along learning the systems they're playing in than DW4 is. You can blame all of this on BOB but at some point it's on the QB himself to master his craft.

What I dont like is Brady a 6 time Lombardi winner has a bad game (Very rarely happens) and posters say see this happens to Brady just like it does to DW4. This shows that some will go to great lengths to defend DW4. I guess what the question really is, is that some make excuses for DW4 and others like me think he should be much further along than he is (Particularly since he's about to wreck the cap) and wonder if he's going to be able to improve the things We're talking about. Most on this MB are betting yes, I'm betting no.

I like talking with guys like Corrosion and you because y'all think DW4 can succeed but not in this offense because DW4's weaknesses dont line up with what's necessary to be successful in the EP system. I'm hoping that with Kelly running the offense he will ask DW4 to do less thinking and more reacting. I mean this is the only hope we have left because DW4's going to be here for atleast another 5 yrs.
 
Texansballer74 said:
Go back in watch the Atlanta game again and you will see Watson operating under center a few times. This is the 2nd time I’ve read a comment from you regarding to Watson being able to do that. Yes he can the main problem is can the coaching staff trust the line? Maybe that could be a reason why they don’t have him operating under center often.
Click to expand...

Or it could be that DW4's more comfortable playing from the gun (Like he did in college) and the coaching staff is trying to give DW4 plays he's most comfortable running. (Nah, that couldn't be true, the coaching staff is doing everything they can to try to make DW4 fail.)
 
Texansballer74 said:
Go back in watch the Atlanta game again and you will see Watson operating under center a few times. This is the 2nd time I’ve read a comment from you regarding to Watson being able to do that. Yes he can the main problem is can the coaching staff trust the line? Maybe that could be a reason why they don’t have him operating under center often.
Click to expand...


https://www.sharpfootballstats.com/attempt-log---qbs.html

Atlanta - He was 4 of 6 for 105 yards and a TD.

Only the first 5 games listed for 2019 , in those 5 games - 13 of 27 for 234 yards , 2 sacks and 2 TD's. That's a successful play rate of 41%.

For his career under center - 98 of 158 for 1358 yards , 12 sacks , 4 INT's and 10 TD's.
Successful play rate of 49%.

Small sample size but in 10% of those 158 plays there was a negative outcome 12 sacks and 4 INT's.
 
Career stats Under center / Shotgun

TD to INT rate - Under center 2.5/1 Shotgun 3.13/1
YPA - Under center 8.6 Shotgun 8.0
Completion percentage - Under center 62% Shotgun 67.3%
 
www.pro-football-reference.com

Deshaun Watson Career Splits | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Deshaun Watson Career Splits
www.pro-football-reference.com www.pro-football-reference.com

LMAOOOOOOOO ... Deshaun Watson has a 111.9 passer rating from the pro set in 2019!! Actually every single passing metric is BETTER from the pro set last year and the same splits carry over for the entirety of his career!! HAHAHA

"durrrrrrr do what Deshaun did in in college so he can be better"

Ignorance.

SplitValueCmpAttIncCmp%YdsTD1DIntRateSkYdsY/AAY/AAttYdsY/ATD1DTgtRecYdsY/RTD1DCtch%Y/Tgt
Snap Type & HuddleHuddle32147715667.303774251851199.043-2507.97.92793834.87271166.011100.0%6.0
No Huddle1218666.677816171.11-74.32.9433010.00200000
Shotgun29543213768.293171221651195.937-2247.37.21664196.37271166.011100.0%6.0
Under Center38632560.326814261111.97-3310.811.3716-6-0.40200000
 
steelbtexan said:
Agreed,

Jimmy G also played very well in the Pats system. Now that he's playing with Shanny the system is easier for him. (BTW, Jimmy G has started around the same number of games that DW4 has) The QB's I listed were off of the top of my head and I get what you're saying. I like the EP system better than the WC system because it allows for more big plays. (A DW4 strength.) Plenty of QB's throughout the yrs have learned how to play within the EP system (Every QB that's played for Coughlin as an example) this isn't brain surgery. The troublesome thing is not just for me but it should trouble others is DW4 hasn't really improved in the area we are talking about. (Here comes the DW4 crowd with he unlikes.) Maybe I'm expecting too much be expecting DW4 to be much further ahead of where he is after 21/2 yrs of playing time and over 3 yrs of studying this offense.

Would you say I'm setting unrealistic expectations? I look at guys like Mahomes/Jimmy G/Murray etc... and they seem to be alot further along learning the systems they're playing in than DW4 is. You can blame all of this on BOB but at some point it's on the QB himself to master his craft.

What I dont like is Brady a 6 time Lombardi winner has a bad game (Very rarely happens) and posters say see this happens to Brady just like it does to DW4. This shows that some will go to great lengths to defend DW4. I guess what the question really is, is that some make excuses for DW4 and others like me think he should be much further along than he is (Particularly since he's about to wreck the cap) and wonder if he's going to be able to improve the things We're talking about. Most on this MB are betting yes, I'm betting no.

I like talking with guys like Corrosion and you because y'all think DW4 can succeed but not in this offense because DW4's weaknesses dont line up with what's necessary to be successful in the EP system. I'm hoping that with Kelly running the offense he will ask DW4 to do less thinking and more reacting. I mean this is the only hope we have left because DW4's going to be here for atleast another 5 yrs.
Click to expand...

It's not a matter of going to great lengths to defend Watson. We all know your opinion of Watson and there is nothing any poster or even Watson can do that will change your mind. However:
  1. If you insinuate Watson is too stupid to make the OL calls, I will counter that even the great Peyton Manning did not make his OL calls.
  2. If you say Watson is not picking up the blitz, I will show you Brady with 10+ years experience not picking up the blitz
  3. If you say Watson should be this or that after only 3 years in an offense, I will counter with HoF QBs with worst stats in their 3 years
  4. If you say Watson will never win a SB, I will counter with how many Super Bowls did HoF QBs win
  5. If you want to promote "Jimmy G" as some great QB, I will counter with his post season stats and his HC is helping him identify the defense from the LOS
  6. If you want to claim a stretch of games define Watson, I will counter with a stretch of bad games by QBs you prefer over Watson
We have two totally different perspectives on Watson. Your view point begins with Watson is stupid, cannot learn and will never improve. I see him as a young QB still learning, willing to learn and is very coachable. I don't place winning a SB solely on his shoulders.

I don't go to great lengths to defend Watson. If you were offering constructive criticism on the areas Watson needs to improve on, we would have a totally different conversation. Instead your posting is he CANNOT and NEVER will. As a result, I can only provide you with evidence that counters your opinion and we can agree to disagree.
 
Earl34 said:
It's not a matter of going to great lengths to defend Watson. We all know your opinion of Watson and there is nothing any poster or even Watson can do that will change your mind. However:
  1. If you insinuate Watson is too stupid to make the OL calls, I will counter that even the great Peyton Manning did not make his OL calls.
  2. If you say Watson is not picking up the blitz, I will show you Brady with 10+ years experience not picking up the blitz
  3. If you say Watson should be this or that after only 3 years in an offense, I will counter with HoF QBs with worst stats in their 3 years
  4. If you say Watson will never win a SB, I will counter with how many Super Bowls did HoF QBs win
  5. If you want to promote "Jimmy G" as some great QB, I will counter with his post season stats and his HC is helping him identify the defense from the LOS
  6. If you want to claim a stretch of games define Watson, I will counter with a stretch of bad games by QBs you prefer over Watson
We have two totally different perspectives on Watson. Your view point begins with Watson is stupid, cannot learn and will never improve. I see him as a young QB still learning, willing to learn and is very coachable. I don't place winning a SB solely on his shoulders.

I don't go to great lengths to defend Watson. If you were offering constructive criticism on the areas Watson needs to improve on, we would have a totally different conversation. Instead your posting is he CANNOT and NEVER will. As a result, I can only provide you with evidence that counters your opinion and we can agree to disagree.
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Blah blah blah

Comparing Brady/Manning to DW4 in anyway is laughable.

Maybe DW4 might improve to a McNabb level if he improves alot.

Blame whoever you want too, it doesn't matter to me.
 
steelbtexan said:
Blah blah blah

Comparing Brady/Manning to DW4 in anyway is laughable.

Maybe DW4 might improve to a McNabb level if he improves alot.

Blame whoever you want too, it doesn't matter to me.
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Can you not read with understanding verses always responding out of your feelings. You know darn well Earl wasn't comparing them in that manner. You're too old for this stuff.
 
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Corrosion said:
Jimmy G & Shanahan are running Gary's WCO …. Any QB who's ever played in that system will tell you its a QB's best friend.

I think it suits Watson perfectly. He's mobile and can take advantage of the stuff designed to get him out of the pocket , he can get the ball out quick when the routes demand it & he's very accurate on the deep ball and he'd get a lot of opportunities to do that from play action.

The only issue is if he can operate under center. So far we haven't seen that and there's really only one reason a QB isn't under center and that's a question of vision. I'd go deeper into that theory but it would be fruitless ….
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steelbtexan said:
Agreed,

Jimmy G also played very well in the Pats system. Now that he's playing with Shanny the system is easier for him. (BTW, Jimmy G has started around the same number of games that DW4 has) The QB's I listed were off of the top of my head and I get what you're saying. I like the EP system better than the WC system because it allows for more big plays. (A DW4 strength.) Plenty of QB's throughout the yrs have learned how to play within the EP system (Every QB that's played for Coughlin as an example) this isn't brain surgery. The troublesome thing is not just for me but it should trouble others is DW4 hasn't really improved in the area we are talking about. (Here comes the DW4 crowd with he unlikes.) Maybe I'm expecting too much be expecting DW4 to be much further ahead of where he is after 21/2 yrs of playing time and over 3 yrs of studying this offense.

Would you say I'm setting unrealistic expectations? I look at guys like Mahomes/Jimmy G/Murray etc... and they seem to be alot further along learning the systems they're playing in than DW4 is. You can blame all of this on BOB but at some point it's on the QB himself to master his craft.

What I dont like is Brady a 6 time Lombardi winner has a bad game (Very rarely happens) and posters say see this happens to Brady just like it does to DW4. This shows that some will go to great lengths to defend DW4. I guess what the question really is, is that some make excuses for DW4 and others like me think he should be much further along than he is (Particularly since he's about to wreck the cap) and wonder if he's going to be able to improve the things We're talking about. Most on this MB are betting yes, I'm betting no.

I like talking with guys like Corrosion and you because y'all think DW4 can succeed but not in this offense because DW4's weaknesses dont line up with what's necessary to be successful in the EP system. I'm hoping that with Kelly running the offense he will ask DW4 to do less thinking and more reacting. I mean this is the only hope we have left because DW4's going to be here for atleast another 5 yrs.
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I don’t think think you’re being unrealistic, except perhaps in time frame. Everyone learns at their own rate. For me it’s tough to compare QBs to Mahomes especially as he appears to be a savant. In his case I do believe Reid helps as well. As we’ve discussed DW was successful in the Clemson offensive with fewer reads. Now he’s being asked to do much more against the best athletes in the world. I think it may take some time. We’ve also seen and heard reports that the WRs aren’t always on the same page, I think a lot of this has to do with the youth/newer guys that we’ve surrounded him with over the past couple seasons. I truly believe this has been a factor in some of his issues. I’ll point to Brady this past season. His numbers were down and I believe it had to do with not having his normally reliable targets and going with younger guys

I also think it’s on the coaching staff to do everything they can to make their athletes successful. IMHO, that requires taking whatever system you run and adapting it to your personelle’s strengths. Look no further than Baltimore. They’ve created a relatively unique system that LJ runs extremely well. Look at what Pederson did for Foles in Philly, he turned him into a very high level QB, despite being fairly mediocre for most of his career. Reading the article I posted, Shanahan’s philosophy makes so much sense to me, especially for younger QBs. Make the game as easy as possible for them and let their talent take over. Then over time add in complexity as the QB grows and matures with experience
 
IDEXAN said:
Given the massive investment with Draft picks & cap money we should certainly expect a top 10 unit at the very least or the efforts to upgrade the Oline has been an abject failure.
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Devlin.

When BOB is fired this along with DW4 will be the reason it happens.
 
steelbtexan said:
Devlin.

When BOB is fired this along with DW4 will be the reason it happens.
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Replacing Watson isn't going to be easy if traded. If it was going to happen, should have been draft day 2020. Washington and if Tu'aTag reinjured Dolphins only teams possible 2021. Raiders maybe depending on how they perform.
 
IDEXAN said:
Given the massive investment with Draft picks & cap money we should certainly expect a top 10 unit at the very least or the efforts to upgrade the Oline has been an abject failure.
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Yeah , with the investments in that bunch , both in draft assets and cap allocation , you'd expect them to perform at a very high level …. or its a failure.
 
IDEXAN said:
If there's consideration to move DW4 after the 2020 season then that probably means the Texans failed in '20, failed badly right ?
I really dunno if Watson is elite, no doubt he's very talented, but is he an elite NFL QB ?
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Well, we're about to get another 16 games to add to the case. This year will fall onto Kelly's ability to call the offense, can receivers stay healthy and effective while running the right routes, will the TE's be incorporated into the passing game to the point that the team uncovers its own Kelce, will the running game be effective enough to keep defenses honest, and finally.....will the OL mesh in 2020 with its current personnel. As for Watson, he'll be as effective as the offense around him.
 
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