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State of the O-line

ArlingtonTexan said:
No..neither was consider a blocker...Thomas is big, but played giant WR and Akin is on the small to barely average size for a in-line blocking TE...he a"move" guy
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Lamm was visibly pissed with Thomas yesterday b/c he didn't pick up the inside rusher that wound up causing the fumble. Thomas picked up the rusher going outside. This is yet another reason why running a no huddle offense yesterday would've been stupid.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
As for the answers in the draft, I want a top LT but the Texans aren't at the top of the draft to get the top projected guys. I still think LT, Hyatt (Clemson) is the right pick for this position. He's a 4 year starter at LT and he protected Watson's blind-side for 2 seasons....also during the season they won the National Championship. He's spent 4 years facing top talent so I don't think the move to the NFL will be as big as an adjustment as it could for other LT. I think Hyatt is an upgrade over Davenport com enext season even though Davenport is entering his 3rd NFL season.

I feel the same way about OC-OG-OT, Risner (Kansas State) b/c he's a senior and 3 year starter who's absolutely handled the positions they've asked him to cover. If Martin doesn't improve, Risner could play Center, where many analyst have him pegged to play in the NFL. He could definitely slide out RG or maybe even on a stretch play RT. I think Risner could be a solid upgrade over Martin at Center b/c in all honesty, I think Martin's stock got bumped during the draft b/c of who his brother Zach is in Dallas.

Both Hyatt and Risner are smart athletes who could adjust to the NFL quicker than expected b/c they'll pick up the playbook much faster than some of the other OL available.

I'd be OK with the following OL in 2019:

LT- Hyatt.....Davenport or Rankin
LG- Kelemete.....Rankin or Martin
OC- Risner.....Martin or Mancz or Fulton
RG- Mancz......Fulton or Martin or Risner
RT- Lamm......Henderson or Risner

That's a fairly versatile group of 8 OL.
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I can’t put my finger on it, but I’m just not the biggest fan of Hyatt. Yes, he has the history and experience at LT, but for some reason I don’t think he’ll be a quality starter in the NFL.

I wouldn’t mind Risner at C. I’ve been disappointed with Martin. You might be right that his stocked got bumped because of his brother.
 
steelbtexan said:
They're an injured team.

On their 3rd string LT, lost their C, Fournette has been out all yr.

Campbell/Bouye etc... hurt on defense.

Still should've beaten the Steelers.

As our resident dumba** is trying to say I thought Bortles = Eli just proves he's the dumba** with an agenda. (Not you)

Hey TB you dumba** Texian was the guy who loved Bortles not me. I've posted this in several threads but YOU keep saing this BS. You're WRONG.
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Bwhahaha man I said you like Jacksonville because of the moves they made . Only said Bortles name once. So stop your lying joker. And watch your freaking mouth.
 
ObsiWan said:
So enough of this "the O-line sucks" crap.
That's obvious to even the untrained eye...

Tell me who, specifically, both in free agency and the draft, should the Texans be targeting to upgrade the O-line?

do they replace all five or will one or two additions shore things up sufficiently...?
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I think part of the problem with offering off season suggestions is there doesn't appear to be much opening up in free agency for tackles although I guess there could be situation where a vet is cut or becomes avail for trade unexpectedly. In college and I note that some including SteelTexan disagree with me, I don't see the position as being strong after two to three LTs go above us. Another example is Wisconsin a reportedly "tackle U." has been dropping in rankings and offensive line looking sloppy as they did this past Saturday against Purdue. Their right guard was bad and RT Dave Edwards looked lost to me several times.
 
badboy said:
I think part of the problem with offering off season suggestions is there doesn't appear to be much opening up in free agency for tackles although I guess there could be situation where a vet is cut or becomes avail for trade unexpectedly. In college and I note that some including SteelTexan disagree with me, I don't see the position as being strong after two to three LTs go above us. Another example is Wisconsin a reportedly "tackle U." has been dropping in rankings and offensive line looking sloppy as they did this past Saturday against Purdue. Their right guard was bad and RT Dave Edwards looked lost to me several times.
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If they've gotta trade up to get one of Williams/Little/Cajuste they need to do it. I also like Dillard. Not too high on the Wisconsin OL this yr. If Edwards fell to the 2nd I would consider him, but not in the 1st.
 
Shishkabob said:
Week 11 marks the second time this season Davenport did not give up a QB pressure. Lets hope he can sustain that.

— TexansCap (@TexansCap) November 19, 2018
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Not so sure about that.
After the second INT by Smith, the Texans got the ball at the Skins 22.
The genius that is OB calls an empty set.
Sure, it was Lamm and Mancz that allowed pressure on the right side.
But, as a LT, Davenport needed to direct the RDE as far back and wide as he could. He can't stop moving his feet there.
He didn't give Watson any room to escape.
I think he ought to share that sack with the other two guys.

They've been keeping 6-7 to block quite often, or run the zone blocking scheme to help out the linemen. The ZBS limits the number of pressure, but if they don't run it smoothly, the play can be over pretty quickly.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
I sort of got what I asked for but didn't like the manner in which arrived. I would still like to see the Texans play this OL set-up a game or two.....but scheeez, how about a few practices before making it happen.

LT- Davenport
LG- Rankin
OC- Marti
RG- Mancz
RT- Lamm

This unit got the running game going but really got thrashed in pass blocking. Rankin had no practice time at LG before he was sent in to cover the position. It took Mancz and Lamm a few series to get back to being familiar with one another. If O'Brien will let this unit handle all the 1st team reps in practice.....it could make a difference this week.

O'Brien, for the love of god, get Griffin off the field. This guy is no better at blocking than the 2 Jordan's....and their ducking rookies. Griffin isn't even in their class as a receiver.....and their ducking rookies. I do not understand his need to start Griffin.....is he standing on the sideline with his eyes closed?

As for the answers in the draft, I want a top LT but the Texans aren't at the top of the draft to get the top projected guys. I still think LT, Hyatt (Clemson) is the right pick for this position. He's a 4 year starter at LT and he protected Watson's blind-side for 2 seasons....also during the season they won the National Championship. He's spent 4 years facing top talent so I don't think the move to the NFL will be as big as an adjustment as it could for other LT. I think Hyatt is an upgrade over Davenport com enext season even though Davenport is entering his 3rd NFL season.

I feel the same way about OC-OG-OT, Risner (Kansas State) b/c he's a senior and 3 year starter who's absolutely handled the positions they've asked him to cover. If Martin doesn't improve, Risner could play Center, where many analyst have him pegged to play in the NFL. He could definitely slide out RG or maybe even on a stretch play RT. I think Risner could be a solid upgrade over Martin at Center b/c in all honesty, I think Martin's stock got bumped during the draft b/c of who his brother Zach is in Dallas.

Both Hyatt and Risner are smart athletes who could adjust to the NFL quicker than expected b/c they'll pick up the playbook much faster than some of the other OL available.

I'd be OK with the following OL in 2019:

LT- Hyatt.....Davenport or Rankin
LG- Kelemete.....Rankin or Martin
OC- Risner.....Martin or Mancz or Fulton
RG- Mancz......Fulton or Martin or Risner
RT- Lamm......Henderson or Risner

That's a fairly versatile group of 8 OL.
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Had to reply your entire post because very close to my thoughts. Your five are mine for rest of season and I guess Team wanted to have their vet FA picks in there but both went out very quickly. Question for all--how did entire offense go backwards including QB and TEs? Some have mentioned the play calling above and that's true but many players if not most looked lost to me. That screams entire prep for the game.

I like Hyatt from Clemson and for now he could be available round two. I can't make mind up on Cajusty yet but Risner seems to fit OBrien's "more than one position" although I see him as RT for now and really don't want to use any of our top three picks on a RT with Lamm doing so well. My guy Scharping is there in third round and he could be solid either side after a season learning even better if D and Lamm can hold spots and get better 2019 and on.
 
badboy said:
Had to reply your entire post because very close to my thoughts. Your five are mine for rest of season and I guess Team wanted to have their vet FA picks in there but both went out very quickly. Question for all--how did entire offense go backwards including QB and TEs? Some have mentioned the play calling above and that's true but many players if not most looked lost to me. That screams entire prep for the game.

I like Hyatt from Clemson and for now he could be available round two. I can't make mind up on Cajusty yet but Risner seems to fit OBrien's "more than one position" although I see him as RT for now and really don't want to use any of our top three picks on a RT with Lamm doing so well. My guy Scharping is there in third round and he could be solid either side after a season learning even better if D and Lamm can hold spots and get better 2019 and on.
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D and journeyman Lamm holding the spots. LOL.

You must be loving you some of the OT play this season.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
I sort of got what I asked for but didn't like the manner in which arrived. I would still like to see the Texans play this OL set-up a game or two.....but scheeez, how about a few practices before making it happen.

LT- Davenport
LG- Rankin
OC- Marti
RG- Mancz
RT- Lamm

.
Click to expand...

The guys on 610 gave game balls to Davenport, Rankin, & Mancz. They said Rankin & Mancz did well considering the situation. They thought Davenport played well.
 
thunderkyss said:
The guys on 610 gave game balls to Davenport, Rankin, & Mancz. They said Rankin & Mancz did well considering the situation. They thought Davenport played well.
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steelbtexan said:
D and journeyman Lamm holding the spots. LOL.

You must be loving you some of the OT play this season.
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I am not the only one. I recognize the errors and weaknesses but am not blind to the positives either. D would be extremely better if he had an experience solid LG next to him. I'm hoping Kelemete doesn't replace Rankin and allows the latter to get some time so he and D can develop going forward.
 
steelbtexan said:
What do they need more than keeping Watson from being the most pressured QB in the NFL?
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well to be fair and accurate there are positives that Oline is doing better to decrease that. On the other hand as observed versus Washington, Watson can be his worst enemy. I'm leaning to BPA in first round that for now appear to be defensive player. I need rest of season to see how these candidates perform but two are looking really good. You just seem locked into your view despite what others are saying. I think that is what some of the guys are referring to when they compare you to Texians view on Bortles.
 
The play that Hopkins fumble the ball, for example.
The Texans only had two guys running route, with the back slipping out late as the third guy.
That means double team on each of the two receivers.
Soon as Hopkins sees the ball, the DB that was sitting there, had an easy time pouncing on DHop and the ball.

The Skins only rushed 4, with the 3 LBs also sitting back.

It severely limits the space and where the Q
thunderkyss said:
The guys on 610 gave game balls to Davenport, Rankin, & Mancz. They said Rankin & Mancz did well considering the situation. They thought Davenport played well.
Click to expand...
Or like on the second INT by Watson.
Davenport couldn't stay engaged with the RDE; he allowed the guy to make the play on the ball.

It happens.

But to say that Davenport is playing well is an overstatement.
Same goes to Mancz.

Oh, and on the same play, which was supposed to be a RB screen, Rankin was nowhere near putting a finger on the LB at the second level.
The play never got a chance to develop to expose his (Rankin's) miss though.
 
After the Skins pulled within 3 (14-17), the Texans faced 3rd and 2 at the Skins 27.
Davenport was beaten like a drum.
Watson got hit badly; the Texans were lucky they got a roughing the passer call (that's a wussy call as I've seen one).
The ball should have been intercepted there as well, but the defender dropped the ball.
 
badboy said:
well to be fair and accurate there are positives that Oline is doing better to decrease that. On the other hand as observed versus Washington, Watson can be his worst enemy. I'm leaning to BPA in first round that for now appear to be defensive player. I need rest of season to see how these candidates perform but two are looking really good. You just seem locked into your view despite what others are saying. I think that is what some of the guys are referring to when they compare you to Texians view on Bortles.
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The most pressured QB in the NFL leads me to this view and there are 4 LT's I would consider worthy of top 25 grades. Risner is the only RT I give that grade too. Only because I think he can be an all pro OG.

Also the other reasons I feel this way are in Watsons career which consists of 17 games he has suffered

1. Torn ACL
2. Cracked ribs
3. Punctured lung

Also I dont want to see a repeat of the Carr era. Giving Watson what he needs to be protected/successful should be job 1 if the talent level in draft picks are close and in this yrs OT class I not only feel it is, I dont really like this yrs high end CB crop and the DL/Edge guys are so deep that you can get comparable guys in the 2nd/3rd rd as you can at 25.

I really like the CB from Troy in the 3rd rd. Real smooth playmaker. I remember seeing him in the Troy upset of LSU.
 
steelbtexan said:
The most pressured QB in the NFL leads me to this view and there are 4 LT's I would consider worthy of top 25 grades. Risner is the only RT I give that grade too. Only because I think he can be an all pro OG.

Also the other reasons I feel this way are in Watsons career which consists of 17 games he has suffered

1. Torn ACL
2. Cracked ribs
3. Punctured lung

Also I dont want to see a repeat of the Carr era. Giving Watson what he needs to be protected/successful should be job 1 if the talent level in draft picks are close and in this yrs OT class I not only feel it is, I dont really like this yrs high end CB crop and the DL/Edge guys are so deep that you can get comparable guys in the 2nd/3rd rd as you can at 25.

I really like the CB from Troy in the 3rd rd. Real smooth playmaker. I remember seeing him in the Troy upset of LSU.
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Blace Brown CB. had a great 2017 and avg 2018 but haven't been able to watch him so it may be due to opponents not throwing his way. I super like corners this draft pretty much all rounds but we need at least one that can start game one if needed. Joseph has been solid again but who knows and Colvin remains a question mark to me. You probably are on target with the top 25 OT picks I'm just not agreeing they beat out D but we've hashed that out and others are probably tired of our back and forth. If Watson get his act together this Oline will be fine with biggest concern IMO is left guard.
 
steelbtexan said:
What do they need more than keeping Watson from being the most pressured QB in the NFL?
Click to expand...

Steelbtexan, I'm almost always behind your post(s) but I seriously think it starts with coaching and scheme. I don't see O'Brien's offense being an eye-opening system but more of a confusing system. Devlin hasn't really appeared to do much in the way of getting O'Brien on board with one-type of blocking system. Since they've failed to figure this part out.....its made it damn near impossible to draft or sign the right OL personnel to execute a flip-flop of plans.

O'Brien has failed to alter his attack or act as if he's cognizant of his OL's limitations......b/c he still has the receivers running 10+ yards downfield before really attempting to break coverage, that's getting Watson killed. He's also got his outlet guys in trying to help his OL so he can hit the big one.....almost made me think Al Davis was the Owner/GM.

Fast paced, no-huddle offense that features receivers running quick slants while exposing zone coverages would eventually open up some of those downfield throws. A little modern day Run-N-Shoot that includes a TE.
 
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OptimisticTexan said:
Steelbtexan, I'm almost always behind your post(s) but I seriously think it starts with coaching and scheme. I don't see O'Brien's offense being an eye-opening system but more of a confusing system. Devlin hasn't really appeared to do much in the way of getting O'Brien on board with one-type of blocking system. Since they've failed to figure this part out.....its made it damn near impossible to draft or sign the right OL personnel to execute a flip-flop of plans.

O'Brien has failed to alter his attack or act as if he's cognizant of his OL's limitations......b/c he still has the receivers running 10+ yards downfield before really attempting to break coverage, that's getting Watson killed. He's also got his outlet guys in trying to help his OL so he can hit the big one.....almost made me thing Al Davis was the Owner/GM.

Fast paced, no-huddle offense that features receivers running quick slants while exposing zone coverages would eventually open up some of those downfield throws. A little modern day Run-N-Shoot that includes a TE.
Click to expand...
I can't like this enough. Especially the last sentence. I've been saying this for quite awhile, and thought that is what OB had in mind with QT. The Pats OLine has never been a great one, but they keep Brady clean by keeping other teams off balance. That's what I was hoping to see this season, but OB just doesn't seem to know how to use the weapons he has. Either that, or Watson passes up those routes to try and make a big play every time. In fact, I have seen Watson do just that on many occasions. He'll pass up the easy completion to try and go for the big play, and usually ends up getting pressured and hit, when he could have easily hit the receiver coming across for an easy 1st down.
 
steelbtexan said:
Also the other reasons I feel this way are in Watsons career which consists of 17 games he has suffered

1. Torn ACL
2. Cracked ribs
3. Punctured lung

Also I dont want to see a repeat of the Carr era.
Click to expand...

David Carr never suffered an injury. The boy was weak in the mind.

I don't want Watson getting hurt any more than you do, but your reasoning is flawed. Yes we need to get better on the OL, but to act like a 1st round pick across the OL solves the problem ignores the fact that Ben Roethlisberger is often injured. That Joe Flacco gets hurt.

& to make up your mind before the season even started, which is what you've done, makes your arguments sound like incessant whining. Yes over the first five games Watson was the most pressured QB in the league. Is that still the case now? Over the last 5 games, is he still the most pressured?

Jared Goff & Patrick Mahomes saw more pressure last night than Watson did Sunday.
 
thunderkyss said:
David Carr never suffered an injury. The boy was weak in the mind.

I don't want Watson getting hurt any more than you do, but your reasoning is flawed. Yes we need to get better on the OL, but to act like a 1st round pick across the OL solves the problem ignores the fact that Ben Roethlisberger is often injured. That Joe Flacco gets hurt.

& to make up your mind before the season even started, which is what you've done, makes your arguments sound like incessant whining. Yes over the first five games Watson was the most pressured QB in the league. Is that still the case now? Over the last 5 games, is he still the most pressured?

Jared Goff & Patrick Mahomes saw more pressure last night than Watson did Sunday.
Click to expand...

While i agree with those that say you 'cant play scared' .. i think it applies more to the psychological aspect. Physically speaking players will improvise in the moment, sometimes that results in magnificent plays, sometimes in depressing failures and even fewer with injury. It is a part of the game, BUT I feel strongly that a good coach will minimize that exposure by his franchise QB. You cant just thrust him into the thunderdome with a pair of chopsticks and hope he makes it out alive. Obrien needs to scheme more offensive plays that maximize Watsons arm talent and vision, but minimize his probability of injury. More protected roll outs, designed sprint out passing, bunch receivers to make quick throws and improve rhythm and confidence. Obriens idea of protecting his QB is running his RB into the 3 hole 20 times a game, but then he'll call a college option or 7 step drop with a piss poor offensive line and wonder why his guy is getting beat up.

Yes injuries are going to happen, playing QB the averages may be higher than other positions, but you cant get caught in paralysis by analysis, but even futher still have a coach who is smart enough to develop a game plan to take all those variables into account. Bill Obrien says he does not game plan for each game, that its an overrated aspect. He would rather just call the same plays over and over and over again (im exagerrating I have seen some wrinkles lately) and rely on his players talent level than to actually help them with better play design.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Steelbtexan, I'm almost always behind your post(s) but I seriously think it starts with coaching and scheme. I don't see O'Brien's offense being an eye-opening system but more of a confusing system. Devlin hasn't really appeared to do much in the way of getting O'Brien on board with one-type of blocking system. Since they've failed to figure this part out.....its made it damn near impossible to draft or sign the right OL personnel to execute a flip-flop of plans.

O'Brien has failed to alter his attack or act as if he's cognizant of his OL's limitations......b/c he still has the receivers running 10+ yards downfield before really attempting to break coverage, that's getting Watson killed. He's also got his outlet guys in trying to help his OL so he can hit the big one.....almost made me think Al Davis was the Owner/GM.

Fast paced, no-huddle offense that features receivers running quick slants while exposing zone coverages would eventually open up some of those downfield throws. A little modern day Run-N-Shoot that includes a TE.
Click to expand...

I agree with some of this. He and the previous GM weren't on the same page when it came to the OL systems. BOB came from the EP system and Ricky came from the ZBS system so the disconnect really isn't surprising. Devlin has brought very little to the table and the fact that he personally scouted Davenport and thought that with his slow feet he could become a starting LT in the nfl should be grounds for his firing. But really when you get down to it it's mainly a talent issue. We shall see how things turn out when it comes acquiring talent now that the GM/HC both grew up in the EP system. Rankin looked pretty good at LG last week, so that's a good start.

I agree with BOB needing to go to a shorter passing game and getting the ball out of Watson's hand as quickly as possible since he's playing behind this crap OL. Since it's obvious the Texans aren't winning the SB this yr, then keeping Watson healthy and fixing the OL this offseason is job #1. IMHO

Running a modern day run and shoot would be a disaster IMHO because it would expose Watson to more hits since he would be throwing the ball more behind this crap OL. Plus it will make the defense have to play more snaps which will wear them out and they are the main reason the team is in most of these games at the end of the game. The run and shoot lengthens games and BOB is obviously trying to win games (Running up the middle continiously) by shortening the game, playing defense and hoping Watson makes a few plays at the en of the games.
 
thunderkyss said:
David Carr never suffered an injury. The boy was weak in the mind.

I don't want Watson getting hurt any more than you do, but your reasoning is flawed. Yes we need to get better on the OL, but to act like a 1st round pick across the OL solves the problem ignores the fact that Ben Roethlisberger is often injured. That Joe Flacco gets hurt.

& to make up your mind before the season even started, which is what you've done, makes your arguments sound like incessant whining. Yes over the first five games Watson was the most pressured QB in the league. Is that still the case now? Over the last 5 games, is he still the most pressured?

Jared Goff & Patrick Mahomes saw more pressure last night than Watson did Sunday.
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Yep, TK the OL was outstanding Sunday. Or the Sunday before that. In fact the only game that they've had say that was on par with the top OL's was the Miami game. For the most part the OL has sucked and it was predictable with what Gaine/BOB did this offseason.

It doesn't matter when an OL man is drafted but talent carries the day and the higher the draft pick the better the chance for success.

So now when I predict something and things turn out the way I thought they would I'm whining? OK
 
thunderkyss said:
David Carr never suffered an injury. The boy was weak in the mind.

I don't want Watson getting hurt any more than you do, but your reasoning is flawed. Yes we need to get better on the OL, but to act like a 1st round pick across the OL solves the problem ignores the fact that Ben Roethlisberger is often injured. That Joe Flacco gets hurt.

& to make up your mind before the season even started, which is what you've done, makes your arguments sound like incessant whining. Yes over the first five games Watson was the most pressured QB in the league. Is that still the case now? Over the last 5 games, is he still the most pressured?

Jared Goff & Patrick Mahomes saw more pressure last night than Watson did Sunday.
Click to expand...

Words can not describe how much i disagree with this statement
 
"Jared Goff & Patrick Mahomes saw more pressure last night than Watson did Sunday."

Words can not describe how much I disagree with that statement.

I watched the game last night, timing how much time both of those O-lines gave their respective QB's. The entire game was nothing but a gun slinging pass fest. Both defensive lines knew that on almost every play it was going to be a pass. Both of these D-lines have some excellent pass rushers, but even with these handicaps 90% of the time, the O-lines were providing both QB with beautifully clean pockets for +3 seconds.

My re-occurring thought throughout that game was "Good Lord how many TD's could Watson put up with either one of these O-lines."

The entire problem with the Texan's offensive is with this god awful O-line that we are sticking out there every week.

A football offense is like a house. If you have a bad foundation on a house, no matter what fancy windows and beautiful floors, and lovely cabinetry you put in, the house will still have sticking doors, cracks in the walls, and broken sewer pipes. The house will never be right. The offensive line is the foundation, until tghis gets fixed, no changes in play calling, no changes in running backs, no changes in route running will change anything.

Until this O-line gets fixed this offense will be sticky, with large cracks in it, just like a house.
 
AggiebyMarriage said:
"Jared Goff & Patrick Mahomes saw more pressure last night than Watson did Sunday."

Words can not describe how much I disagree with that statement.

I watched the game last night, timing how much time both of those O-lines gave their respective QB's. The entire game was nothing but a gun slinging pass fest. Both defensive lines knew that on almost every play it was going to be a pass. Both of these D-lines have some excellent pass rushers, but even with these handicaps 90% of the time, the O-lines were providing both QB with beautifully clean pockets for +3 seconds.

My re-occurring thought throughout that game was "Good Lord how many TD's could Watson put up with either one of these O-lines."

The entire problem with the Texan's offensive is with this god awful O-line that we are sticking out there every week.

A football offense is like a house. If you have a bad foundation on a house, no matter what fancy windows and beautiful floors, and lovely cabinetry you put in, the house will still have sticking doors, cracks in the walls, and broken sewer pipes. The house will never be right. The offensive line is the foundation, until tghis gets fixed, no changes in play calling, no changes in running backs, no changes in route running will change anything.

Until this O-line gets fixed this offense will be sticky, with large cracks in it, just like a house.
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Those 2 QB's had 8 sacks with 4 strip sacks between them... and you don't think they were pressured?
 
JB said:
Those 2 QB's had 8 sacks with 4 strip sacks between them... and you don't think they were pressured?
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I am interested to see the total amount of pressures when the numbers come out. Each QB attempted over 45 passes, so there are a lot more chances for pressures and sacks then the 24 attempts Watson had. O lines get tired to, late in the game those hogs rather run block then pass block
 
The offensive line looked solid once again, allowing just one sack and two hurries (all of which came from Kendall Lamm). All of the offensive line earned above-average pass-blocking grades for the second week in a row, led by Kelemete (80.3) and Martin (83.2). Rankin performed admirably when filling in at left guard, allowing zero pressures on 24 pass-blocking snaps.

I want to know how PFF judges a hurry, I seem to remember Watson being pressured more than a few times that game.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Steelbtexan, I'm almost always behind your post(s) but I seriously think it starts with coaching and scheme. I don't see O'Brien's offense being an eye-opening system but more of a confusing system. Devlin hasn't really appeared to do much in the way of getting O'Brien on board with one-type of blocking system. Since they've failed to figure this part out.....its made it damn near impossible to draft or sign the right OL personnel to execute a flip-flop of plans.

O'Brien has failed to alter his attack or act as if he's cognizant of his OL's limitations......b/c he still has the receivers running 10+ yards downfield before really attempting to break coverage, that's getting Watson killed. He's also got his outlet guys in trying to help his OL so he can hit the big one.....almost made me think Al Davis was the Owner/GM.

Fast paced, no-huddle offense that features receivers running quick slants while exposing zone coverages would eventually open up some of those downfield throws. A little modern day Run-N-Shoot that includes a TE.
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This isn't college where you can run an air raid spread passing system full of quick slants & bubble screens all the way down the field into the end zone...especially when you can't run the ball consistently. You need to be able to attack regularly 10+ yards down the field in the NFL. I've already spoken on why running a no-huddle consistently in the NFL is not a great move in another thread.

It's also not fair to say O'brien hasn't altered his attack considering there have been clear adjustments in how he has tried to attack defenses over numerous years. Those changes have just served to accomodate less than stellar qb play with the likes of Mallet, Fitz, Hoyer and Oz. This year, his changes in attack have served to accomodate subpar o-line play. The problem with those changes is that they've had a somewhat drastic attack on the passing game. i.e. can't send a TE out in route consistently if you have to keep him in to protect. There's no real way around that either.

We've seen what upgrading to a greater talent can do to for his system...really anyone's system. Alex Smith had Hill, Kelce and Hunt last year too. Yet somehow they weren't nearly as explosive as they are now with Mahomes. We saw Watson step in at qb as a rookie & look light years better than any of the 4-5 veteran qbs BoB had prior to him. & as long as he's healthy, this team is likely to win more games this year than any other prior year under BoB So it's clear his offense is viable, it is just in dire need of upgrades along the o-line and rb position now to take that next step forward.

Aside from that No matter what system we run, No matter who comes here to coach, you're still going to need better protection for the qb to execute against the best teams...period. & better protection is only going to come with better talent.
 
JB said:
Those 2 QB's had 8 sacks with 4 strip sacks between them... and you don't think they were pressured?
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Last night KC made 46 passing attempts/ LAR made passing 49 attempts, total attempts were 95 attempts. Getting 8 sacks on 95 attempts, when both defensive lines knew a pass was coming, is a sack percentage of 8.4%.

This is a pretty darn good sacks percentage, in any circumstance, and exceptional percentage when a game was played like that one was..

5 sacks on 24 attempts, a sack percentage of 20.8% is just plane ugly under any circumstance.
 
thunderkyss said:
David Carr never suffered an injury. The boy was weak in the mind.

I don't want Watson getting hurt any more than you do, but your reasoning is flawed. Yes we need to get better on the OL, but to act like a 1st round pick across the OL solves the problem ignores the fact that Ben Roethlisberger is often injured. That Joe Flacco gets hurt.

& to make up your mind before the season even started, which is what you've done, makes your arguments sound like incessant whining. Yes over the first five games Watson was the most pressured QB in the league. Is that still the case now? Over the last 5 games, is he still the most pressured?

Jared Goff & Patrick Mahomes saw more pressure last night than Watson did Sunday.
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Ben Rothlisberger is close to retirement but is also 6'5 240 & the way he plays isn't how you want your qb to play but in his younger days he could shrug off some of those big OL grabbing him. As you know, Watson's much smaller & contrary to his belief "he aint built for that".

As for the bolded, I watched that game last night & the only way what you're saying is true is from a total volume standpoint as each guy dropped back to pass nearly 50 times a piece. It stands to reason that they would face more pressure in that regard. Watson isn't throwing nearly as much and is seeing close to the same amount those guys saw last night.
 
JB said:
Watson wasn't sacked 5 times on 24 attempts.... but yeah the OL play was bad, but not great for either KC or LAR
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he was sacked 3 times on 27 drop backs, a sack doesn't count as a pass attempt so you have to remember to add that number to the number of attempts. so about 11% sack rate

Also PFF credited our line with only 1 sack, meaning the other 2 were either on a RB or tight end
 
Shishkabob said:
he was sacked 3 times on 27 drop backs, a sack doesn't count as a pass attempt so you have to remember to add that number to the number of attempts. so about 11% sack rate

Also PFF credited our line with only 1 sack, meaning the other 2 were either on a RB or tight end
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OK I can do the math that way. Last night, when every person in the stadium knew the QB was going to pass, and they sent 4 receivers out and only kept 6 blockers in time after time : 8 sacks on 103 drop backs. A sack percentage of 7.7%. Much better protection than Deshaun got with max protection, the the running game was emphasized, and the pass was mixed in selectively.

Our pass protection SUCKS. Until this is fixed, the offense is going to look bad, no matter how they they to plaster over (you saw what I did there, with my home repair reference) the situation.
 
AggiebyMarriage said:
OK I can do the math that way. Last night, when every person in the stadium knew the QB was going to pass, and they sent 4 receivers out and only kept 6 blockers in time after time : 8 sacks on 103 drop backs. A sack percentage of 7.7%. Much better protection than Deshaun got with max protection, the the running game was emphasized, and the pass was mixed in selectively.

Our pass protection SUCKS. Until this is fixed, the offense is going to look bad, no matter how they they to plaster over (you saw what I did there, with my home repair reference) the situation.
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I'm not disagreeing, our line has still be an issue, I don't trust either tackle in 1v1 blocks for anything other than like WR screens
 
Shishkabob said:
Correct, the total numbers will always be jacked up due to the amount of hits.

Weeks 1-6 66 QB Hits avg. 11/g
Past four games 14 hits avg 3.5/g https://t.co/4bx9SzVWRA

— patrick (@PatDStat) November 20, 2018
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lots of extra help the past 4 games, averaging 13 fewer attempts a game, and Watson has avoided some hits on his own. It's gotten better, but still needs to be better
 
JB said:
Those 2 QB's had 8 sacks with 4 strip sacks between them... and you don't think they were pressured?
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Kirwin on NFLN today said he counted 120 drop back to pass plays. This takes into account the QB scrambles, sacks etc... So the sack numbers weren't really out of line at all. The protection was actually quite good considering the number of pass plays that were called .

Can you imagine what would happen to Watson playing behind this ol if BOB called 60 pass plays?

The fan reaction would be awesome after Watson got hurt again. As Double Barrell said football is entertainment and the fan reaction would be one of the most entertaining things I would have seen this season. On second thought I hope BOB let's Watson throw the ball 60 times a game.
 
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steelbtexan said:
Kirwin on NFLN today said he counted 120 drop back to pass plays. This takes into account the QB scrambles, sacks etc... So the sack numbers weren't really out of line at all. The protection was actually quite good considering the number of pass plays that were called .

Can you imagine what would happen to Watson playing behind this ol if BOB called 60 pass plays?

The fan reaction would be awesome after Watson got hurt again. As Double Barrell said football is entertainment and the fan reaction would be one of the most entertaining things I would have seen this season. On second thought ihipe BOB let's Watson throw the ball 60 times a game.
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60 passing attempts behind this line would would end up with Deshaun on a slab at the Morgue.
 
steelbtexan said:
Kirwin on NFLN today said he counted 120 drop back to pass plays. This takes into account the QB scrambles, sacks etc... So the sack numbers weren't really out of line at all. The protection was actually quite good considering the number of pass plays that were called .

Can you imagine what would happen to Watson playing behind this ol if BOB called 60 pass plays?

The fan reaction would be awesome after Watson got hurt again. As Double Barrell said football is entertainment and the fan reaction would be one of the most entertaining things I would have seen this season. On second thought ihipe BOB let's Watson throw the ball 60 times a game.
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From what I saw those qb's were under a lot of pressure. They had much better weapons and much better play design and were getting the ball much faster than Watson usually does.
 
JB said:
From what I saw those qb's were under a lot of pressure. They had much better weapons and much better play design and were getting the ball much faster than Watson usually does.
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There was some pressure.

But percentage wise not really that much.
 
JB said:
From what I saw those qb's were under a lot of pressure. They had much better weapons and much better play design and were getting the ball much faster than Watson usually does.
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The numbers say you are wrong:

Every person in the stadium knew the QBs was going to pass, and they sent 4 receivers out and only kept 6 blockers in time after time : 8 sacks on 103 drop backs. A sack percentage of 7.7%.

Much better protection than Deshaun got with max protection, the the running game was emphasized, and the pass was mixed in selectively, generating a sack percentage of 11%.
 
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