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State of the O-line

welsh texan said:
I'd say Andy Reid did a much better job of installing Mahomes as the starting QB than OB did with DW.

Let him sit the first year, gave him the start in week 17, then spent the offseason with him as the starting QB.

OTOH, Watson spent his rookie offseason in a full blown competition for snaps again Tom Savage, lost out on the starting job, until Week 1 didn't go to plan and was forced to play in a poorly suited offense that then needed to be drawn up on the fly. Injuries followed and have not helped his development through his first 3 seasons.

My worry at this point is that we have seen many many QB's peak within their first 3 seasons in the league, especially if the offense is mismanaged around them.
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This was the plan RS wanted. (One of the few things I actually agreed with him on) after the 1st quarter BOB had seen enough of Savage getting pummeled and put DW4 in and the rest is his.

As far the last paragraph, I watched Aikmna get pummeled and he became a HOF. So however DW4'career turns out it won't be because of this.

Setting up excuses if he fails in the future there will be many more excuses like this made for him.

If he fails it won't be because he wasn't good enough or failed to improve. It will be because of somebody or something else why he failed at least to a section of this MB. It can't because they were wrong. This is actually a great default in a debate because some posters will buy the BS.
 
steelbtexan said:
This was the plan RS wanted. (One of the few things I actually agreed with him on) after the 1st quarter BOB had seen enough of Savage getting pummeled and put DW4 in and the rest is his.
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No, Tom Savage had the worse footwork out of all the qb's we had.
Tom-Savage-fumble-1.gif


OB has a knack for not seeing things in TC until it's too late. Remember when he did the same to Hoyer in the first game of the season?
 
santo said:
No, Tom Savage had the worse footwork out of all the qb's we had.
Tom-Savage-fumble-1.gif


OB has a knack for not seeing things in TC until it's too late. Remember when he did the same to Hoyer in the first game of the season?
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I didn't care about any of this, I didn't care if they won a game that yr. I was much more worried about keeping DW4 healthy and we knew how bad that turned out. The Texans lost 3 starting QBs that season.
 
steelbtexan said:
I didn't care about any of this, I didn't care if they won a game that yr. I was much more worried about keeping DW4 healthy and we knew how bad that turned out. The Texans lost 3 starting QBs that season.
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That's because the line was horrible. I think it still is because Devlin is still here. In my opinion it's not going to get any better with him as OL coach.
 
Mr teX said:
So bascially prior to Mahomes starting, he had won 1 playoff game in 5 years. IOW's he was BoB. Only when Mahomes got here & started playing literally out of his mind has he even been able to get past the divisional round.
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Except he’s not OB. Everyone keeps wanting to compare Reid’s time in KC to OB’s time here. Reid was 14 years into this when got to KC, with 5 CCGs and a SB appearance in his 1st 6 years as HC. What has OB done in his 1st 6 years again?

And here Reid is in the SB again. Yes, getting Mahomes helped, but what has been accomplished in KC with Mahomes is night and day compared to what OB has done since Watson has been here.

Andy Reid runs circles around OB and it ain’t even close.
 
Speedy said:
Except he’s not OB. Everyone keeps wanting to compare Reid’s time in KC to OB’s time here. Reid was 14 years into this when got to KC, with 5 CCGs and a SB appearance in his 1st 6 years as HC. What has OB done in his 1st 6 years again?
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Won & gone to the playoffs with the likes of a Brock Osweiler & Brian Hoyer......a feat unto itself. When has Reid ever taken a team to the playoffs and won a game with a qb anything less than a top 5-10 talent at the qb position?

I guess too then any ol' Joe Schmoe or anyone who's ever been to a CCG or SB will do right? I guess when BoB is fired, you'd be ok with them bringing in a guy like Doug Marrone, Jeff Fisher or Lovie Smith then? Give me a break. Past performance does not predict future results....& right up until he got a seminal talent like Mahomes in KC, he had shown that he couldn't get it done either.

He has a chance to change the narrative & we'll see how far Reid has come. He's got 18 years of HC experience on Shanahan. We'll see if it comes thru on Sunday or not.
 
santo said:
No, Tom Savage had the worse footwork out of all the qb's we had.
Tom-Savage-fumble-1.gif


OB has a knack for not seeing things in TC until it's too late. Remember when he did the same to Hoyer in the first game of the season?
Click to expand...

Savage is in the shotgun, takes a 3 step drop and with 3 seconds and by the time his back foot hits, the OL is collapsing around him. SMDH
 
Mr teX said:
Won & gone to the playoffs with the likes of a Brock Osweiler & Brian Hoyer......a feat unto itself. When has Reid ever taken a team to the playoffs and won a game with a qb anything less than a top 5-10 talent at the qb position?

I guess too then any ol' Joe Schmoe or anyone who's ever been to a CCG or SB will do right? I guess when BoB is fired, you'd be ok with them bringing in a guy like Doug Marrone, Jeff Fisher or Lovie Smith then? Give me a break. Past performance does not predict future results....& right up until he got a seminal talent like Mahomes in KC, he had shown that he couldn't get it done either.

He has a chance to change the narrative & we'll see how far Reid has come. He's got 18 years of HC experience on Shanahan. We'll see if it comes thru on Sunday or not.
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Osweiler was 5-2 before O'Brien.
He even had a SB ring.
He's 8-6 with O'Brien.
And a blow-out loss in the play-offs

Hoyer was 10-7 before O'Brien.
He was 5-4 with O'Brien.
And a blow-out loss in the play-offs.
 
Mr teX said:
Won & gone to the playoffs with the likes of a Brock Osweiler & Brian Hoyer......a feat unto itself. When has Reid ever taken a team to the playoffs and won a game with a qb anything less than a top 5-10 talent at the qb position?

I guess too then any ol' Joe Schmoe or anyone who's ever been to a CCG or SB will do right? I guess when BoB is fired, you'd be ok with them bringing in a guy like Doug Marrone, Jeff Fisher or Lovie Smith then? Give me a break. Past performance does not predict future results....& right up until he got a seminal talent like Mahomes in KC, he had shown that he couldn't get it done either.

He has a chance to change the narrative & we'll see how far Reid has come. He's got 18 years of HC experience on Shanahan. We'll see if it comes thru on Sunday or not.
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Good grief man. Nobody has ever ******* said that anybody who’s ever been is better. Trent Dilfer is not better than Dan Marino. Brad Johnson is not better than Warren Moon.

And if baby Shanny beats him Sunday, so be it. We'll see if he's a Brad Johnson or if he can keep it going.

Reid has been to back to back CCG and now a SB, while OB can’t do any better with a superior talent at QB than he can with Brock freaking Osweiler.

And to take it further than just CGs and SBs, Reid had an offense in the top 10 in scoring 3 times in his 1st 6 years, twice in the top 10 in yards. 4 times in the top 10 in scoring his 1st 6 years in KC.

Bill O'Brien? 0 and 0. But hey, OB has been in the playoffs 4 out of 5 years. Jimmy Johnson never did that, so......
 
Earl34 said:
Savage is in the shotgun, takes a 3 step drop and with 3 seconds and by the time his back foot hits, the OL is collapsing around him. SMDH
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This have been going on for 6 season now. How do we expect these quarterbacks to actually go threw their progressions, throw with anticipation and be consistently accurate?

The oline play is extremely important to the success of pretty much the entire offensive unit.
 
steelbtexan said:
I'm not absolving BOB he could provide more options. But many times this yr there were TE's open in the middle of the field.

Question since you want to have an honest discussion, how would you go about teaching DW4 how to beat the 4 man rush with the DE's rushing from almost the wide 9 to keep DW4 in the pocket while dropping 7?

BTW, I never said all 7 sacks were on DW4. I just said the OL was only responsible for 1/2 sack according to Alexander unlike some on this MB have said. Like I said this wasn't my opinion this was Alexander's.
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His offense doesn't have enough beaters. Even on the pass plays that are successful, most times it's a high skilled play by Watson. His pocket is always crowded. Duke Johnson is a weapon, but leave it up to OBrien to minimize his play. Let me ask, what is the purpose of empty backfield with Hyde on the boundaries? How come every 3 tight end set, the run is to that side? I'm charting off the all 22. I'm charting personel and formation. Both of which, he creates a ton of restrictions. Honey Badger robbed almost all the underneath routes. Teams guard the te with linebackers, roll coverage to Hopkins and keep a safety over the top of Fuller. Duke Johnson should've killed the middle of the field.
 
leebigeztx said:
His offense doesn't have enough beaters. Even on the pass plays that are successful, most times it's a high skilled play by Watson. His pocket is always crowded. Duke Johnson is a weapon, but leave it up to OBrien to minimize his play. Let me ask, what is the purpose of empty backfield with Hyde on the boundaries? How come every 3 tight end set, the run is to that side? I'm charting off the all 22. I'm charting personel and formation. Both of which, he creates a ton of restrictions. Honey Badger robbed almost all the underneath routes. Teams guard the te with linebackers, roll coverage to Hopkins and keep a safety over the top of Fuller. Duke Johnson should've killed the middle of the field.
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This post is all over the place.

I think you are a little too emotional

But BOB and DW4 are going to be here for the next 3 years if not more, my question is what would you do to make things better for DW4? Knowing his limitations how would you work around then?

I think the only way to get the best out of DW4 is to let him play like LJ does. BOB shouldn't try to make DW4 something he"s never been or never will be. IMHO.
 
So going in to next year this team has...

Martin - Center
Mancz - Center/Guard
Fulton - Center/Guard
Scharping - Guard
Tunsil - Tackle
Clark - Tackle
Johnson - Tackle
Nkansah - Tackle
Howard - Tackle
Kelemete - Guard

And a couple of others on PS and IR.

Starting 5 next year, left to right..imo
Tunsil, Scharping, Martin, Fulton, Howard.

Weak link for me is Fulton. I like Mancz better. That position should be upgraded though. I thought Scharping played pretty dang good for a rook. And Howard was doing very well. LT, LG, and RT should be set for the future. Upgrade C and RG and this line could be very good. I still think Devlin holds this group back a lot. There has to be better options out there. ST's was garbage and OB got him a new coach and look at the improvement in that group this year. Not sure why it's taking him so long to realize the OL could be better with better coaching.
 
austins23 said:
So going in to next year this team has...

Martin - Center
Mancz - Center/Guard
Fulton - Center/Guard
Scharping - Guard
Tunsil - Tackle
Clark - Tackle
Johnson - Tackle
Nkansah - Tackle
Howard - Tackle
Kelemete - Guard

And a couple of others on PS and IR.

Starting 5 next year, left to right..imo
Tunsil, Scharping, Martin, Fulton, Howard.

Weak link for me is Fulton. I like Mancz better. That position should be upgraded though. I thought Scharping played pretty dang good for a rook. And Howard was doing very well. LT, LG, and RT should be set for the future. Upgrade C and RG and this line could be very good. I still think Devlin holds this group back a lot. There has to be better options out there. ST's was garbage and OB got him a new coach and look at the improvement in that group this year. Not sure why it's taking him so long to realize the OL could be better with better coaching.
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This is pretty much my op on the line as well. They wont replace Martin after the extension but rg should be upgraded.

Devlin shoulda been replaced already. Ob's lack of action here deserves far more criticism.
 
powda said:
This is pretty much my op on the line as well. They wont replace Martin after the extension but rg should be upgraded.

Devlin shoulda been replaced already. Ob's lack of action here deserves far more criticism.
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Maddening how that position coach hasn't been turned over yet. He's (OB) has made lots of other changes to the coaching staff. To me, with a shiny new QB, this group should have the best coaching possible. And I'm pretty sure ol Devlin isn't delivering it.
 
austins23 said:
Maddening how that position coach hasn't been turned over yet. He's (OB) has made lots of other changes to the coaching staff. To me, with a shiny new QB, this group should have the best coaching possible. And I'm pretty sure ol Devlin isn't delivering it.
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I don't know why OB is so loyal to Devlin... BB or George O'leary must have recommended him or Devlin has something on him
 
steelbtexan said:
This post is all over the place.

I think you are a little too emotional

But BOB and DW4 are going to be here for the next 3 years if not more, my question is what would you do to make things better for DW4? Knowing his limitations how would you work around then?

I think the only way to get the best out of DW4 is to let him play like LJ does. BOB shouldn't try to make DW4 something he"s never been or never will be. IMHO.
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For the 1000th time. Watson does not need to play and run the ball like Jackson to be successful.
 
leebigeztx said:
His offense doesn't have enough beaters. Even on the pass plays that are successful, most times it's a high skilled play by Watson. His pocket is always crowded. Duke Johnson is a weapon, but leave it up to OBrien to minimize his play. Let me ask, what is the purpose of empty backfield with Hyde on the boundaries? How come every 3 tight end set, the run is to that side? I'm charting off the all 22. I'm charting personel and formation. Both of which, he creates a ton of restrictions. Honey Badger robbed almost all the underneath routes. Teams guard the te with linebackers, roll coverage to Hopkins and keep a safety over the top of Fuller. Duke Johnson should've killed the middle of the field.
Click to expand...

You should chart how many times a RB goes out wide and how many times he even runs a pattern. Check out the 1:03 minute mark of this video. Chubb tells Miller, "I know you're not running a route. We watched it on film."

 
Earl34 said:
For the 1000th time. Watson does not need to play and run the ball like Jackson to be successful.
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Disagree

If you want to be truly successful you do.

That's who DW4 is. He's always been the best athlete on the field.
 
steelbtexan said:
All defenses have to do to contain that is rush their DE's wide.
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True. But it is pretty when he does so.
I would like to see a lot more short passes in his repertoire - stepping up in the pocket more often getting rid of the ball quickly and just moving the chains.
 
Texansphan said:
True. But it is pretty when he does so.
I would like to see a lot more short passes in his repertoire - stepping up in the pocket more often getting rid of the ball quickly and just moving the chains.
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We all would like to see this

It's a weakness of his.

There will be no SB's until he learns to do this.
 
steelbtexan said:
We all would like to see this

It's a weakness of his.

There will be no SB's until he learns to do this.
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I have high hopes for the oline next season - Tunsil looks good and Sharping seems well suited at LG.
Martin is obviously the C and Howard was pretty good at RT before he went down. The weak spot is RG, so a good replacement like Brandon Scherff would see this line become a strength.
That would be something to see - giving DW4 some extra time and better protection.
 
santo said:
That's because the line was horrible. I think it still is because Devlin is still here. In my opinion it's not going to get any better with him as OL coach.
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That’s the biggest issue I have with how this organization is structured. There’s no one in the organization that can or will tell O’Brien to replace Devlin. Consequently, I believe the ceiling for the o-line is lower than it would be under competent line coaching.
 
Texansphan said:
I have high hopes for the oline next season - Tunsil looks good and Sharping seems well suited at LG.
Martin is obviously the C and Howard was pretty good at RT before he went down. The weak spot is RG, so a good replacement like Brandon Scherff would see this line become a strength.
That would be something to see - giving DW4 some extra time and better protection.
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I hope I’m wrong on this, but when I look at the glaring holes on D, I struggle to see where we have the resources to go out and strengthen an OL that OB seems fairly content with. The 2 positions we see as weaknesses, the C got a massive extension several months ago, while Fulton has been around a while and never been challenged as a starter.
 
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welsh texan said:
I hope I’m wrong on this, but when I look at the glaring holes on D, I struggle to see where we have the resources to go out and strengthen an OL that OB seems fairly content with. The 2 positions we see as weaknesses, the C got a massive extension several months ago, while Fulton has been around a while and never been challenged as a starter.
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Unless I'm mistaken I believe releasing Fulton now would produce some cap savings which means we can shop around for an upgrade
in free agency or maybe in the Draft ?
 
steelbtexan said:
This post is all over the place.

I think you are a little too emotional

But BOB and DW4 are going to be here for the next 3 years if not more, my question is what would you do to make things better for DW4? Knowing his limitations how would you work around then?

I think the only way to get the best out of DW4 is to let him play like LJ does. BOB shouldn't try to make DW4 something he"s never been or never will be. IMHO.
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I'm never in an emotional state when posting about a team or player. The weakness of Watson is the coach. There aren't enough beaters. Everytime I watch and rewatch the coaches film, I consistently see 2 man routes or 3 man routes out of 11 personel. If the teams are defending a non threatening tight end with a lb and you're running these over routes, but the running backs arent involved in the threat either, then what you have is long,developing plays with no outs until improvised play at the qb.
 
leebigeztx said:
I'm never in an emotional state when posting about a team or player. The weakness of Watson is the coach. There aren't enough beaters. Everytime I watch and rewatch the coaches film, I consistently see 2 man routes or 3 man routes out of 11 personel. If the teams are defending a non threatening tight end with a lb and you're running these over routes, but the running backs arent involved in the threat either, then what you have is long,developing plays with no outs until improvised play at the qb.
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They drafted Warring to be the TE that threatens the seam. He got hurt, those things happen. I see TE's on the hash and RB's in the flats that are open quite often as the outs. CnD has shown shots of this.
 
welsh texan said:
I hope I’m wrong on this, but when I look at the glaring holes on D, I struggle to see where we have the resources to go out and strengthen an OL that OB seems fairly content with. The 2 positions we see as weaknesses, the C got a massive extension several months ago, while Fulton has been around a while and never been challenged as a starter.
Click to expand...

Hopefully a guy like Runyan is there in the 5th and can be developed. This is a very deep OL draft.
 
steelbtexan said:
This post is all over the place.

I think you are a little too emotional

But BOB and DW4 are going to be here for the next 3 years if not more, my question is what would you do to make things better for DW4? Knowing his limitations how would you work around then?

I think the only way to get the best out of DW4 is to let him play like LJ does. BOB shouldn't try to make DW4 something he"s never been or never will be. IMHO.
Click to expand...
a better Right Guard in Brandon scherff and a better RB in the draft JK Dobbins would help tremendously for number four.
 
austins23 said:
So going in to next year this team has...

Martin - Center
Mancz - Center/Guard
Fulton - Center/Guard
Scharping - Guard
Tunsil - Tackle
Clark - Tackle
Johnson - Tackle
Nkansah - Tackle
Howard - Tackle
Kelemete - Guard

And a couple of others on PS and IR.

Starting 5 next year, left to right..imo
Tunsil, Scharping, Martin, Fulton, Howard.

Weak link for me is Fulton. I like Mancz better. That position should be upgraded though. I thought Scharping played pretty dang good for a rook. And Howard was doing very well. LT, LG, and RT should be set for the future. Upgrade C and RG and this line could be very good. I still think Devlin holds this group back a lot. There has to be better options out there. ST's was garbage and OB got him a new coach and look at the improvement in that group this year. Not sure why it's taking him so long to realize the OL could be better with better coaching.
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it will be interesting to see how Mancz ankle surgery improves his play.
 
badboy said:
a better Right Guard in Brandon scherff and a better RB in the draft JK Dobbins would help tremendously for number four.
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Scherff probably wont be available and he's been injury prone.

Love Dobbins and would love to get him.

I would rather fix the secondary though with the 2nd rd pick and in FA.
 
badboy said:
a better Right Guard in Brandon scherff and a better RB in the draft JK Dobbins would help tremendously for number four.
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I believe these two acquisitions would be the best the two most valuable players that we could realistically add to our team. That being said, we would have to parlay our#57 pick up at least a full round earlier, to be sure we got JKD .... and that's now .... not after he blows up the combine !
 
justmy2cents said:
I believe these two acquisitions would be the best the two most valuable players that we could realistically add to our team. That being said, we would have to parlay our#57 pick up at least a full round earlier, to be sure we got JKD .... and that's now .... not after he blows up the combine !
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If Dobbins Not there at 57, think we could replace Hyde With Someone like Zack Moss.
 
badboy said:
If Dobbins Not there at 57, think we could replace Hyde With Someone like Zack Moss.
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Considering the youth and injuries along the offensive line this past season, I was pretty pleased with Hyde. I often feel that we let too many of our valuable players get away. When I watch the perennial contenders, I'm surprised when I don't know a player at a position .... I think cohesion is another one of lesser trademarks that we may not value enough. Just look at the defensive players we've let "fly the coup" in the last several years. I know he's 30 but Hyde, at 6' 230# - with remarkable quickness, still has considerable value. JK Dobbins however, I think will be something special. The night that he put on that show, a month or 6 weeks ago, I was interested in a couple of other players. Then, in pregame, they started talking about the diet he went on to lose even more body fat ... he was already down to 9%. Went on a diet so strict, (he didn't like anything on it), that he was at 6%, and had gotten even stronger. They flashed a picture of him standing shirtless - in gym shorts .... he looked like Saquon Barkley's brother ! That had me hooked, so I watched .... what a show he put on .... seemed like he amassed 500 yards ! Of course he didn't, but it had to be 300 !
 
justmy2cents said:
Considering the youth and injuries along the offensive line this past season, I was pretty pleased with Hyde. I often feel that we let too many of our valuable players get away. When I watch the perennial contenders, I'm surprised when I don't know a player at a position .... I think cohesion is another one of lesser trademarks that we may not value enough. Just look at the defensive players we've let "fly the coup" in the last several years. I know he's 30 but Hyde, at 6' 230# - with remarkable quickness, still has considerable value. JK Dobbins however, I think will be something special. The night that he put on that show, a month or 6 weeks ago, I was interested in a couple of other players. Then, in pregame, they started talking about the diet he went on to lose even more body fat ... he was already down to 9%. Went on a diet so strict, (he didn't like anything on it), that he was at 6%, and had gotten even stronger. They flashed a picture of him standing shirtless - in gym shorts .... he looked like Saquon Barkley's brother ! That had me hooked, so I watched .... what a show he put on .... seemed like he amassed 500 yards ! Of course he didn't, but it had to be 300 !
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I have compared Dobbins to the Raiders Josh Jacobs. He is not only a game changer, but could be franchise type back and there are not many of those. I am not eager to hold on to Hyde and think he can be replaced Easily and cheaper. I wonder what is going to go on with Buddy Howell and Karin Higdon?
 
steelbtexan said:
This post is all over the place.

I think you are a little too emotional

But BOB and DW4 are going to be here for the next 3 years if not more, my question is what would you do to make things better for DW4? Knowing his limitations how would you work around then?

I think the only way to get the best out of DW4 is to let him play like LJ does. BOB shouldn't try to make DW4 something he"s never been or never will be. IMHO.
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Rub routes and play action pass.
And more roll outs, too.
O'Brien depends on his players to beat the defenders too much.
Leebig is right.
Not enough cover beaters whether the D was in cover 2, 3, 4.
 
badboy said:
a better Right Guard in Brandon scherff and a better RB in the draft JK Dobbins would help tremendously for number four.
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I like Scherff. But it is important to note that Nov 2018, he underwent surgery for a ruptured pec. Then the end of this past Dec, underwent shoulder labrum surgery. He also sustained an elbow ligament injury around the same time, an injury which was felt to be able to be rehabbed without surgery.

Keep in mind while making your assessments, that as far as the labrum tear surgery, 85-90% of NFL players will return to play in 5-6 months.........and starters will usually be able to return to starting. But return to preinjury performance level may not return until the 2nd season post surgery.
 
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