Sherman as OC, and more

[Texans_Chick]

Here's the HT.com press conference link.

Read it.

So, what is the most interesting quote from it to you? For me it is this one from Andre Johnson:

“Everyone is excited about it. Coach (Mike) Sherman is the offensive coordinator now, and he’s put in some plays and everyone’s trying to get them down pat. We’re out here making plays and learning at the same time, so it’s all going to take time and hopefully we can get it all down in OTAs so that when we come in at training camp, we can have it down and we won’t miss a beat.”

Please someone tell me why I should be excited and happy and confident with Sherman as offensive coordinator. I don't know--I still kinda have the willies about the Denver/GB hybrid working. Like a Spidersense sort of thing.

He certainly has incentive to make things work big here to get a head coach job--his off-season interviews show that. I don't know enough about his background to feel great about him as OC. Can anyone make me feel better about him? I also don't mean to neg out on him--I just kinda wonder.

Kubiak is a bit of known quantity. And Sherman is a bit of a known quantity. Mixed together, I don't know.

 

[infantrycak]

Please someone tell me why I should be excited and happy and confident with Sherman as offensive coordinator.

Well his O ranked on points in GB as follows--11th, 5th, 6th 4th, 5th and then on Favre's INT record setting year that got him fired 22nd. While I don't want to see Kubiak hand the reigns to Sherman unfettered, I am frankly glad to see him thinking about not slavishly following the Shanahan mold and thinking about trying to meld the best pieces of each.

 

[Texans_Chick]

Well his O ranked on points in GB as follows--11th, 5th, 6th 4th, 5th and then on Favre's INT record setting year that got him fired 22nd. While I don't want to see Kubiak hand the reigns to Sherman unfettered, I am frankly glad to see him thinking about not slavishly following the Shanahan mold and thinking about trying to meld the best pieces of each.

Thanks for trying to talk me off the edge. I guess I'm a little gunshy about cobbled together different sorts of offenses. No track record. GB under Sherman and a Shanny/Kubiak Bronco team didn't resemble each other much. If one is more of a power game and the other is more misdirection and mischief on the offensive line, then how do you draft/ acquire players for that? I think a lot of the more successful coaching situations are when a HC takes his guys to a new staff and everyone is on the same page.

 

[powerfuldragon]

(on WR coach Larry Kirksey) “You can tell he’s been around a great group of receivers. He’s watching you when you don’t think he’s watching. Today, he was telling me, ‘What do you see?’ and I was like, ‘I don’t know what you’re talking about.’ When I got in the stretching line, he was like, ‘I’m watching you at all times.’ So every little thing I do, my first day out here, he told me to put my shirt in my pants. He’s on my about every little thing, but it’s not a bad thing; it’s a good thing. He watches everything you do, so when you’re out there doing something wrong or something he thinks that can be done better, he’s going to talk to you and let you know.”

when did we get a new WR coach? i thought we had that shanahan coaching our recievers...

 

[Scooter]

shanahan moved to qb coach after last season.

 

[powerfuldragon]

oops/

 

[Specnatz]

Thanks for trying to talk me off the edge. I guess I'm a little gunshy about cobbled together different sorts of offenses. No track record. GB under Sherman and a Shanny/Kubiak Bronco team didn't resemble each other much. If one is more of a power game and the other is more misdirection and mischief on the offensive line, then how do you draft/ acquire players for that? I think a lot of the more successful coaching situations are when a HC takes his guys to a new staff and everyone is on the same page.

OK don't jump just yet or shoot me for that matter. But the pats use a power running style mixed with passing when it has to be done. They would rather run the ball all day long and score that way and control the the clock. But if it comes down to it they will throw the ball. So having this mix that is not predicated on one style is not such a bad thing and should work out just fine.

I like it, not having just one guy who is so set in his ways he can not be flexible.

 

[PapaL]

I believe he was on staff with Mike Holmgren when GB was winning championships. I thought he was the OC then, but not finding anything that says that. He was the tight ends/assistant offensive line coach from 97-98. He then did follow Holmgren to SEA where he was the OC.

Kind of like Kubiak, we'll see if the HC they were under was the Genius or if they were.

 

[thunderkyss]

Here's the HT.com press conference link.

Read it.

So, what is the most interesting quote from it to you? For me it is this one from Andre Johnson:



Please someone tell me why I should be excited and happy and confident with Sherman as offensive coordinator. I don't know--I still kinda have the willies about the Denver/GB hybrid working. Like a Spidersense sort of thing.

He certainly has incentive to make things work big here to get a head coach job--his off-season interviews show that. I don't know enough about his background to feel great about him as OC. Can anyone make me feel better about him? I also don't mean to neg out on him--I just kinda wonder.

Kubiak is a bit of known quantity. And Sherman is a bit of a known quantity. Mixed together, I don't know.

If you watch teams like the Colts, the Rams, the Titans, and many others, you'll see a lot of zone blocking plays. Although they are predominantly a different offense, they do incorporate ZBS in what they do. The Giants are another team.

We're running a WCO, not a ZBS. Zone blocking plays a bigger part in what we do, compared to those other teams, But throwing in a few power run options is only going to help us be more unpredictable.

Our inability to run the ball last year, had more to do with 5 guys(8 really over the course of the year) learning to play together, as they learned a new system, than it had to do with our OL philosophy.

But Sherman being an Offensive Coordinator is a good thing to me. We've got an experienced offensive coosrdinator now, and with Frank Bush, we've got an experienced DC as well(however they plan to title him). Now, our head coach can be our head coach, and we can move forward.

 

[nunusguy]

I don't mean to go too Machiavellian with this thing, but I'm just not comfortable with this Bush-Cheney, oh I mean Kubiak-Sherman arrangement.
The thing is Sherman was in the big-time (Packers HC), well before Kubiak stopped getting Shanahans coffee in the morning up on the front-range and came down to Texas to run the Bronocs farm team.
If we win only 3 or 4 games this year (it could happen - in reality that scenario is probably more likely than the playoffs this year, which a lot of people actually think we're headed for), Sherman might look like the best way out to big Bob.
I'd be looking over my shoulder for Sherman if I was Kubiak and the season goes south this Fall.

 

[Specnatz]

I don't mean to go too Machiavellian with this thing, but I'm just not comfortable with this Bush-Cheney, oh I mean Kubiak-Sherman arrangement.
The thing is Sherman was in the big-time (Packers HC), well before Kubiak stopped getting Shanahans coffee in the morning up on the front-range and came down to Texas to run the Bronocs farm team.
If we win only 3 or 4 games this year (it could happen - in reality that scenario is probably more likely than the playoffs this year, which a lot of people actually think we're headed for), Sherman might look like the best way out to big Bob.
I'd be looking over my shoulder for Sherman if I was Kubiak and the season goes south this Fall.

 

[Porky]

We are just used to incompetence at the QB position. Now that we have a smart guy who can run the team and the offense, I think we will be fine. We will probably be an "average" offense this year. Compared to past years, that's like comparing a mutt to first in show. Let's just sit back and enjoy the show.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Kubiak is a bit of known quantity. And Sherman is a bit of a known quantity. Mixed together, I don't know.

You know, I've brought up this exact same point before ( a couple of times) so there's always a danger of the two of us creating a feedback loop on this topic where we feed each other's fears until it gets out of control and grows into a weird suicide pact.

But...

Let's at least give this a chance to fail. The West Coast system has proven to be very adaptive and able to evolve in all sorts of different ways. Let's see what these two can cook up after spending a year working with each other.

 

[HOU-TEX]

Wasn't the Broncos offense a mix breed between the WCO and Shanahans offense. IMO, adding some of the Shermanators plays to the scheme just adds another breed to the animal. I think it'll help us more than hurt us.

 

[Wolfiegrrl]

Think of it this way... the seven years Green was in Packer land he averaged 1166 yards a year. Houston's RBs over the last 5 years have only crossed the 1000 yard threshold twice with Dominick Williams.

That right there will open up any passing game Kubiak wants to play.

 

[MightyTExan]

I posted before on the old board about this. Spencer Tillman had his misgivings about it also. He said you can tell when we run, it's a power blocking(Sherman), and when we pass it's WCO(Koobs). He said it is very noticeable on the spacing between the lineman. Sherman might help with running screens with A. Green (looking forward to that), but I think there are too many cooks in the kitchen. I don't want to see a fight like we had with Gilbride\Ryans back in the day.

 

[U4ikrob]

.... Sherman might look like the best way out to big Bob.
I'd be looking over my shoulder for Sherman if I was Kubiak and the season goes south this Fall.

My 2 bits is the team does average this year - Players and coaches will all still be getting used to each other - IMO alot of our record will depend on how well we can dodge the injury bug to our starters. We obviously didnt do to well in that regard last year. From where I sit our depth is still pretty thin at more than a few spots [WR, OT, DB, Safety] IF we manage to get to mid season unscathed I think we have a good shot at getting over .500 this year and maybe making some noise.

But

Not trying to bring doom and gloom - But I have some doubts too - IMO this is really a pivotal year for Kubes, Sherman & Co. If the team comes out flat and stinks it up - Alot of the blame will be on the staff as they got 'their' players and 'their' coaches so should be no excuses anymore. If the team bombs its on them. Sure they will get another year to fix it - they are afterall allready under contract, but i dont think you will see any extensions from the FO. IMO Bob will give em one more year for the staff to fix it or be gone. Honestly If we dont get in the playoffs some where over the next 2 years I cant see anyone making it past the cut - that includes Sherman and anyone else on staff. IMO the whole staff should be flushed again if the team cant compete for the playoffs within the next 2 years.

Sure it might be high expectations, but this is not a new team anymore - after next year the team will have had 7 seasons of drafting and scouting. I honestly cant name another coach on any team in the league who would get a free pass for another year after not making it to the playoffs 3 years in a row.

Honestly I couldnt blame Bob for what he does after Capers & Cass. IMO I dont think 'Big Shot' Bob is going to stand and wait 4 more years for us to get into the playoff mix - something has to give. I think its the staff eso after how Casserley handled things when he was going out the door last year.

 

[awtysst]

My 2 bits is the team does average this year - Players and coaches will all still be getting used to each other - IMO alot of our record will depend on how well we can dodge the injury bug to our starters. We obviously didnt do to well in that regard last year. From where I sit our depth is still pretty thin at more than a few spots [WR, OT, DB, Safety] IF we manage to get to mid season unscathed I think we have a good shot at getting over .500 this year and maybe making some noise.

But

Not trying to bring doom and gloom - But I have some doubts too - IMO this is really a pivotal year for Kubes, Sherman & Co. If the team comes out flat and stinks it up - Alot of the blame will be on the staff as they got 'their' players and 'their' coaches so should be no excuses anymore. If the team bombs its on them. Sure they will get another year to fix it - they are afterall allready under contract, but i dont think you will see any extensions from the FO. IMO Bob will give em one more year for the staff to fix it or be gone. Honestly If we dont get in the playoffs some where over the next 2 years I cant see anyone making it past the cut - that includes Sherman and anyone else on staff. IMO the whole staff should be flushed again if the team cant compete for the playoffs within the next 2 years.

Sure it might be high expectations, but this is not a new team anymore - after next year the team will have had 7 seasons of drafting and scouting. I honestly cant name another coach on any team in the league who would get a free pass for another year after not making it to the playoffs 3 years in a row.

Honestly I couldnt blame Bob for what he does after Capers & Cass. IMO I dont think 'Big Shot' Bob is going to stand and wait 4 more years for us to get into the playoff mix - something has to give. I think its the staff eso after how Casserley handled things when he was going out the door last year.

I got to disagree with you as I don't think this is a make it or break it year. Capers got more time and I think that Bob will give Kubes time to get his team together. I think we have improved drastically(player wise) from the end of the Caper regime, and the way to improve certain areas is to get better at others. For example, putting pressure on the opponents QB helps your DBs. Having a strong running game, helps the QB, Having a good blocking RB helps the Oline. I am not sure where we end up, but I think it will be a real fun season.

 

[Specnatz]

Must you forget Smith has only been on the Job for a little less than a year. So I think having your finger on the ejection seat, is very premature right now.

 

[real]

Why would he have his finger on the trigger after one year of improvement and a great draft ?


The only panic is in the minds of a select few. Kubiak and Smith really haven't done anything except improve our team.

 

[Texans_Chick]

Why would he have his finger on the trigger after one year of improvement and a great draft ?


The only panic is in the minds of a select few. Kubiak and Smith really haven't done anything except improve our team.

For me, it is not panic. Or that everything gets tore up after next season.

For me, I just have questions of how the Sherman-Kubiak stuff works together. If you look at Sherman's bio on the HT website, it discusses how well the run blocking was near the end of the season. Nothing about pass blocking.

It was painful to see how out of sync the offense looked last season. Either pass OR run, but hardly ever both were working well at the same time in games. The Buffalo game was the crazy obvious example of it, but it happened more often that not. It looks like we are running TWO offenses and not one integrated one. It looks like the run game and the pass game were very segregated

So, I guess I am just wondering what a Sherman run Kubiak offense is going to look like.

 

[Specnatz]

For me, it is not panic. Or that everything gets tore up after next season.

For me, I just have questions of how the Sherman-Kubiak stuff works together. If you look at Sherman's bio on the HT website, it discusses how well the run blocking was near the end of the season. Nothing about pass blocking.

It was painful to see how out of sync the offense looked last season. Either pass OR run, but hardly ever both were working well at the same time in games. The Buffalo game was the crazy obvious example of it, but it happened more often that not. It looks like we are running TWO offenses and not one integrated one. It looks like the run game and the pass game were very segregated

So, I guess I am just wondering what a Sherman run Kubiak offense is going to look like.

I see what you are saying but I think a lot has to do with trust in the players executing and the fact that they were learning from each other. I expected some struggles with a new system and that is what we had. I am optimistic for this season but if the offense still looks like two offenses without one being the dominent then there has to be something reworked as far as the game plan goes.

 

[real]

For me, it is not panic. Or that everything gets tore up after next season.

For me, I just have questions of how the Sherman-Kubiak stuff works together. If you look at Sherman's bio on the HT website, it discusses how well the run blocking was near the end of the season. Nothing about pass blocking.

It was painful to see how out of sync the offense looked last season. Either pass OR run, but hardly ever both were working well at the same time in games. The Buffalo game was the crazy obvious example of it, but it happened more often that not. It looks like we are running TWO offenses and not one integrated one. It looks like the run game and the pass game were very segregated

So, I guess I am just wondering what a Sherman run Kubiak offense is going to look like.

My statement wasn't really directed at you....It was more so towards those saying Smith and Kubiak are on somewhat of a 'hot seat'...

I think your concerns are totally valid.....

I know a lot of people don't agree, but I honestly think that if an offense looks ugly and out of sync; it's on the QB. If your QB has bad timing and bad rythm (AKA being jumpy and nervous) then the players around you feed off of that. Speaking from first hand experience, when you have a QB that is calm in his demeanor, rythmatic, and cool your passing game will reflect that. The running game is really a seperate entity from the QB because he really is just a hand off machine on those plays. I really hate to dwell on the past, but David was bad....He was a wreck out there and it showed whenever he dropped back to pass....Even most of his completions looked terrible....

I really expect to see a much more fluid offense under Schaub...He has immense pressure on him, but not the same that David had...Schaub is hungry and David was merely a wide eyed rookie when he began....

People say that one pereson can't make tht big of a difference, but speaking from first hand experiences I can vouch and say it does....especially when you're talking about the QB because the last thing you see and hear as an offensive lineman before you put your hand down is the QB....

 

[badboy]

I don't think the "type"of offense is going to matter. It will be if the players understand what to do when the play is called and then can perform as taught. Each play whether pass or run calls for each player to do certain things. Either they know what to do or don't (teacher and student). I think we have good teachers and the rest is up to the students. As fans we should recognize when an average player is told to perform above his capabilities. The quote that concerns me most was Kubes comments about Faggins being the guy. He is the coach, but CB was identified as a weakness for a reason prior to the draft. Our left side on D is a big ? to me. I am glad the HC is not as concerned about it. One of us is wrong and I sure hope it is me.

 

[Texans_Chick]

another thing i noticed watching the players talk, guys like ahman, jones, demeco, walter, and dunta all sounded like smart players. well spoken and what not...except aj, he sounds a little slower than the others but i won't argue with results. the whole vibe from smith/kubiak down seems to be a positive one which is only a good thing. a bunch of well spoken guys giving off good and unified vibe is either the makings of a sweet football team or an even sweeter team of scam artists than ocean could come up with...

AJ isn't the most confortable guy dealing with media types but I am not sure that has anything to do with how smart/slow he is. Not everybody feels comfortable with that.

Though I will say the coolest thing I ever heard him say, I think was after the Miami game last year, where he said over the PA how much he loved living in Houston and making it his home. Pretty smart thing to say in front of a crowd of Texans fans.

Random Texan factoid of the day. Which Texans player has the least body fat?

Dunta Robinson

Not a big dude, but full of power.

In close second:

Andre Johnson

At his weight, that is just crazy to contemplate.

Okay, back to the topic. The Texans tend to have a happy family sort of locker room. Always. Even when things are pretty sucky. Lots of participation in things. That hasn't paid off yet, but hopefully we start seeing that pay off in 2007.

 

[Double Barrel]

It was painful to see how out of sync the offense looked last season. Either pass OR run, but hardly ever both were working well at the same time in games. The Buffalo game was the crazy obvious example of it, but it happened more often that not. It looks like we are running TWO offenses and not one integrated one. It looks like the run game and the pass game were very segregated

Beyond working in a new QB and other players, this has to be one of their primary concerns. Anything that lets a defense know what kind of play is going to be run is a sure-fire recipe for failure.

It could be the main reason why our play-action never seemed to work (beyond our QB). Obviously having a consistent running game to be respected makes a huge difference, and considering that we never had that I'd venture that the PA suffered as a result. But if you're selling run but your linemen are giving away the pass, I can't see how an offense will ever get off of the runway.

Hopefully this Kubiak/Sherman hybrid does a better job of disguising itself and it's not even a concern this year.

 

[Wolfiegrrl]

Don't forget, a lot of your assistance on pass blocking must come from the RBs. We didn't have a lot of experience at that position last year. Now we have Green and Batman loves to block as much as run the ball. This will go a long way in helping our young RBs and OL.

 

[real]

Don't forget, a lot of your assistance on pass blocking must come from the RBs. We didn't have a lot of experience at that position last year. Now we have Green and Batman loves to block as much as run the ball. This will go a long way in helping our young RBs and OL.

good point.

 

[Texans_Chick]

Beyond working in a new QB and other players, this has to be one of their primary concerns. Anything that lets a defense know what kind of play is going to be run is a sure-fire recipe for failure.

It could be the main reason why our play-action never seemed to work (beyond our QB). Obviously having a consistent running game to be respected makes a huge difference, and considering that we never had that I'd venture that the PA suffered as a result. But if you're selling run but your linemen are giving away the pass, I can't see how an offense will ever get off of the runway.

Hopefully this Kubiak/Sherman hybrid does a better job of disguising itself and it's not even a concern this year.

And in some ways, the deception is more crucial to the Denver part of the system. In the Denver system, the linemen are light because they completely depend on deception v. power to keep the defensive linemen off balance.

In my old blog Chronic posts that (grumble) no longer have my name on them, they discuss the focus of the Denver style stuff:

More on the Texans Gulf Coast Offense

I'm just not sure how that works with the GB style stuff, or how much Denver stuff is going to be used under a Sherman OC.

 

[Specnatz]

And in some ways, the deception is more crucial to the Denver part of the system. In the Denver system, the linemen are light because they completely depend on deception v. power to keep the defensive linemen off balance.

In my old blog Chronic posts that (grumble) no longer have my name on them, they discuss the focus of the Denver style stuff:

More on the Texans Gulf Coast Offense

I'm just not sure how that works with the GB style stuff, or how much Denver stuff is going to be used under a Sherman OC.

Isn't that plagerism? Sorry TC that is very wrong of the Chron for doing that.

 

[Texans_Chick]

Isn't that plagerism? Sorry TC that is very wrong of the Chron for doing that.

It's not actually plagerism because I am sure that TH doesn't want posts that talk about miniskirts and being a chick to be attributed to him. It's more just kind of misleading.

I've been told that it is a software problem that they are trying to work around and fix. It's not a high priority to them.

 

[infantrycak]

n the Denver system, the linemen are light because they completely depend on deception v. power to keep the defensive linemen off balance.

Not sure deception is a good description--more like motion. The big difference is there is no designed hole. This is because the OLmen come off directionally and are allowed to in a some what martial arts fashion ride the DLmen wherever they can take them. It is then the RB's responsibility to spot where the riding of two adjacent DLmen is resulting in a hole. That contrasts with a power scheme where the OLmen have to be able to overwhelm the DLmen in a specified way at a specified gap. It's fluidity rather than trickery.

 

[Runner]

Nothing about pass blocking....

It was painful to see how out of sync the offense looked last season. Either pass OR run, but hardly ever both were working well at the same time in games.

There wasn't much to say about the pass blocking - if you can't say something nice, etc.

And "workng" in the pass offense meant they were completing two yard passes. I know Carr was a big part of the problem, but the o-line gave up pressure even in those two step drop situations. I think if we expect the pass blocking will be solid for lots of five and seven step drops, we may be very disappointed when the games start. They still have Flanagan at center and the "upgrade" of Black at LT isn't much of a step - if any. The pass blocking schemes have to improve too - I've heard from a couple of knowledgeable people they weren't very good.

...except aj, he sounds a little slower than the others...

Hardly. The thing about quiet, shy people is - they are quiet and shy. Talking like a motor mouth or being a "great" trash talker doesn't make you smart. Many times such pleonasm indicates just the opposite.

 

[Texans_Chick]

Not sure deception is a good description--more like motion. The big difference is there is no designed hole. This is because the OLmen come off directionally and are allowed to in a some what martial arts fashion ride the DLmen wherever they can take them. It is then the RB's responsibility to spot where the riding of two adjacent DLmen is resulting in a hole. That contrasts with a power scheme where the OLmen have to be able to overwhelm the DLmen in a specified way at a specified gap. It's fluidity rather than trickery.

I see what you are saying, but I guess what I am adding is, deception in the sort of magic, slight of hand way. For example, the run blocking is supposed to look to the defense the same whether it is a run or a pass. Even on a bootleg, the tackle on that side of the bootleg is not supposed to seal then end, but block as though it is going to be a run. The hesitation caused by that is supposed to give the QB a free lane to throw the ball.

The Denver offensive theory is that the defensive linemen are typically the better athletes, so that the offense needs to keep their athleticism in check by keeping them guessing, misdirection, causing over-pursuit, making them worry about cutblocks, and exploiting mismatches. It is not about overpowering them.

And to go waaaay out on a limb, I wondered if facing the meat of the NFC East at the beginning of the season was about the worst sort of timing. An offense that depends on timing and teamwork, facing teams built typically built on power.

But back to the point of the thread. How does a timing, direction, misdirection offense get meshed with a straight up power offensive scheme? Green Bay struggled some last year adjusting to a ZBS after doing the Sherman stuff.

I just would like real media to do an article on what a Sherman offense is supposed to be. What sort of offense are we suppose to have?

TC
(Traumatized by the memories of the blended Palmer/Pendry incapatible offensive Frankensteinian thingy and hoping and thinking nothing could be worse than that).

 

[TK_Gamer]

I really don't think we should worry, from what I saw last year, we didnt use a ZBS anyway, I think people are going off assumptions. assuming that we will blend both systems when we haven't even implemented the O-line portion of Denver's offense. I think at most all we will see is an occasional bootleg with an improvised-semi-zbs play, not an offense scheme at all. JMHO

 

[TK_Gamer]

To also explain my Logic(?), I think if Kubiak had the proper personel he would have tried a ZBS system, but I think he realized he simply did not have the right people/skills to do it, so went with a more vanilla strait power blocking scheme. But keep in mind, I dont think Sherman will be here much longer, so what happens after Kubiak takes complete control of the offense is anyone's guess.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

Much of the discussion seems to oversell the ZBS versus Power blocking. Most teams use both. Denver and Atlanta are unusual in that they are one sided. Teams generally are blended even though they lean on way or the other. One of the issues with the giants is incorporating Jacobs in the system. Why? How well does Jacobs run the outside zone play. The Giants are not a team that we think of as a zone blocking team, but they ran the zone stretch play a ton with Tiki and want to continue to do so. They had the ability to run straight at people with classic football, but did incorporate the ZBS.