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Resign Leach or Elite WR 2?

M

mugrakers

Noob
So the basic Idea is that if we can only afford to resign Leach or sign a bonafide number 2 receiver. Someone like Santonio Holmes to play opposite AJ. Which way would you go?
 
mugrakers said:
So the basic Idea is that if we can only afford to resign Leach or sign a bonafide number 2 receiver. Someone like Santonio Holmes to play opposite AJ. Which way would you go?
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You're gonna have to do better than Santonio Holmes if you want a bona fide #2 WR. Holmes wouldn't be rd on our depth chart and maybe not even 4th. Now if it came down to a healthy Steve Breaston or Leach, I might pause. Then I would sign Leach and hope like hell Dorin Dickerson puts it together this year.
 
You know I wonder if the fact that we slash our 1st round pick price in half will allow us to spend that extra money on Leach and still have the same flexibility as we always would have any other year...
 
DocBar said:
You're gonna have to do better than Santonio Holmes if you want a bona fide #2 WR. Holmes wouldn't be rd on our depth chart and maybe not even 4th. Now if it came down to a healthy Steve Breaston or Leach, I might pause. Then I would sign Leach and hope like hell Dorin Dickerson puts it together this year.
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Santonio Holmes is a number 1 Wr for at least 12-15 teams in the NFL. He is not coming here because someone is going to pay him a lot of money to be their top dog. The other reason he won't be here that Holmes is not a good guy. Santonio Holmes as a number 2 WR makes this unit top 5, if not the top duo in the NFL.
 
The free agent WR market doesn't excite me. I'd rather make go with what we have, see what Dickerson has to offer, and next year spend a 1st round pick on a WR when there's like 7-8 1st round caliber studs.

Re-sign Leach and put to bed any worries of the running game dropping off.
 
Santonio Holmes a #1 receiver on how many teams? Put down the :koolaid: and step away from the keyboard. The dude has had one good year and the rest are pretty pedestrian. Leach brings more to the table IMO.
I'd rather not find out if one of our reserve TE's cab play FB. I KNOW Leach can and he's one of the best at it.
 
SheTexan said:
Leach!! Without him Foster is toast! JMO! We need our running game to STAY strong, not get weak AGAIN!!!
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Never, ever overpay for a FB... Do I think Vonta is a beast? YES! Do I love watching Vonta absolutely blow people up? YES!!! That said, FB is a position that it's a bad, bad move to overpay for...
 
DocBar said:
You're gonna have to do better than Santonio Holmes if you want a bona fide #2 WR. Holmes wouldn't be rd on our depth chart and maybe not even 4th. Now if it came down to a healthy Steve Breaston or Leach, I might pause. Then I would sign Leach and hope like hell Dorin Dickerson puts it together this year.
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Breaston over Holmes?

I disagree.....big time. I would do it for Holmes.
 
m5kwatts said:
The free agent WR market doesn't excite me. I'd rather make go with what we have, see what Dickerson has to offer, and next year spend a 1st round pick on a WR when there's like 7-8 1st round caliber studs.

Re-sign Leach and put to bed any worries of the running game dropping off.
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Yeah, not to mention we are going to be at the end of the first round next year too...I mean, deep playoff runs do that to you...
 
DocBar said:
Santonio Holmes a #1 receiver on how many teams? Put down the :koolaid: and step away from the keyboard. The dude has had one good year and the rest are pretty pedestrian. Leach brings more to the table IMO.
I'd rather not find out if one of our reserve TE's cab play FB. I KNOW Leach can and he's one of the best at it.
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Whether you think it or not

1) His peers think he is top 100 player in the league

http://top100.nfl.com/

2) He will sign for Number 1 money in the NFL

See me in a couple of weeks

3) I will take his 9/131 game winning Superbowl performance and take my chances over Walter and Jacoby

I have already outlined why he won't be a Texan, and it is not because of his pure skill and talent.
 
Leach hands down. We have #1 RB with a probowl blocker devastating people in front of him; why break that up? It can be improved but I am ok with AJ/Walter and probably JJ. Throw in OD and Dreesen with Tate and Foster catching out of back field....
 
How about FA Mike Sims-Walker? He might be had for a reasonable fee and he can stretch the field opposite AJ. Walter could be the blocking/slot/possession receiver. That's perfect in my eye.
 
I'd take a flyer on Sidney Rice. Could pick him up on the cheap and has huge potential as stretching the field for us.
 
ArlingtonTexan said:
Whether you think it or not

1) His peers think he is top 100 player in the league

http://top100.nfl.com/

2) He will sign for Number 1 money in the NFL

See me in a couple of weeks

3) I will take his 9/131 game winning Superbowl performance and take my chances over Walter and Jacoby

I have already outlined why he won't be a Texan, and it is not because of his pure skill and talent.
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Are you seriously using the Top 100 silliness and a good SB performance to justify saying Holmes is #1 receiver material? That's funny. The Top 100 nonsense is no more accurate than fan voting for evaluating talent. Holmes has had some good games, but so has just about every other player in the NFL. He might sign for #1 money, but that doesn't always equal out to #1 talent or production. Just look at the many FA busts out there if you need further proof.
 
VTexan said:
I'd take a flyer on Sidney Rice. Could pick him up on the cheap and has huge potential as stretching the field for us.
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I know someone will post stats to prove otherwise, but this isn't a stretch the field offense. I'm pretty sure we pick up great yardage through the air, but we don't really run a lot of fly routes.

We run a lot of post routes and deep ins, but we rarely ask a receiver to outrun the guy holding him and let Matt throw it up to them and the fastest guy wins.

I think jacoby could probably do that, Aj too. But that isn't our offense and that isn't our qb's strong suit.
 
Rey said:
I know someone will post stats to prove otherwise, but this isn't a stretch the field offense. I'm pretty sure we pick up great yardage through the air, but we don't really run a lot of fly routes.

We run a lot of post routes and deep ins, but we rarely ask a receiver to outrun the guy holding him and let Matt throw it up to them and the fastest guy wins.

I think jacoby could probably do that, Aj too. But that isn't our offense and that isn't our qb's strong suit.
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I'd like to see mopre of that myself especially with Trindon Holliday's speed If he only caught 30 % of paases thrown deep to him, the DC would have to account for him opening AJ.
 
DocBar said:
Are you seriously using the Top 100 silliness and a good SB performance to justify saying Holmes is #1 receiver material? That's funny. The Top 100 nonsense is no more accurate than fan voting for evaluating talent. Holmes has had some good games, but so has just about every other player in the NFL. He might sign for #1 money, but that doesn't always equal out to #1 talent or production. Just look at the many FA busts out there if you need further proof.
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I don't know, when both players and GMs think a guy is a quality NFL player, I am going to listen to them over a guy typing on the internet (starting with myself).

If you don't understand that Holmes is better than Jacoby, Walter or Breaston, it is not a good starting point for a discussion. Even if I am overrating him and he is a knucklehead, Holmes is a legitimate NFL starting NFL WR who has made big plays in big situations. and yes teams like the Rams, Jags, Browns, etc would love to be running him out as their number 1. He is the perfect WR2 (see above average yard per catch in conservative offenses).

Nothing more for me to add to this one.
 
ArlingtonTexan said:
I don't know, when both players and GMs think a guy is a quality NFL player, I am going to listen to them over a guy typing on the internet (starting with myself).

If you don't understand that Holmes is better than Jacoby, Walter or Breaston, it is not a good starting point for a discussion. Even if I am overrating him and he is a knucklehead, Holmes is a legitimate NFL starting NFL WR who has made big plays in big situations. and yes teams like the Rams, Jags, Browns, etc would love to be running him out as their number 1. He is the perfect WR2 (see above average yard per catch in conservative offenses).

Nothing more for me to add to this one.
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ROFL....fair enough, my friend. We can just disagree on this one. :fingergun:
 
ArlingtonTexan said:
If you don't understand that Holmes is better than Jacoby, Walter or Breaston, it is not a good starting point for a discussion.
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Since 2006, Holmes has had (9) games of 100+ receiving yards. That's not counting his Super Bowl MVP performance. Walter, Jones, and Breaston have combined for the same amount (9) over the same period. So, it's a no-brainer that Holmes is much better than what the Texans currently have, or what's available in the 2nd tier of free agency.

Forget the character issues for a moment. Would the Texans get the most out of Santonio Holmes? With AJ, Foster, and Daniels, the Texans already have a wealth of offensive weapons. And Schaub's forte isn't throwing downfield. I think Holmes has more value to other teams, and that's a legit reason he wouldn't wind up in Houston. Mix in the character issues, and he just doesn't make sense here.

And why is it Leach vs WR2? Leach will get nowhere near the $$$ that Holmes will pull. The premise of the thread is flawed. Elite WR2 or #1 CB? That's the legit tradeoff. And the answer should be obvious to anyone who watches the Texans on a semi-regular basis.
 
The ladies, SheTexan & GlassHalfFull, have nailed it. If this is truly a run-first offense then you do what is necessary to keep the running game strong. Re-sign Leach.

Can Santonio Holmes run block? Our WRs have to do that in this offense.

Leach brings positive chemistry to the locker room. I've a feeling that Holmes would bring unnecessary diva-type drama. Leach is a known and solid commodity. Holmes is a risky investment at best.
just my :twocents:

having said all that, I'm not sure why this needs to be an either/or situation anyway
 
ArlingtonTexan said:
Whether you think it or not

1) His peers think he is top 100 player in the league

http://top100.nfl.com/

2) He will sign for Number 1 money in the NFL

See me in a couple of weeks

3) I will take his 9/131 game winning Superbowl performance and take my chances over Walter and Jacoby

I have already outlined why he won't be a Texan, and it is not because of his pure skill and talent.
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As for that Top 100 thing I wouldn't put too much weight in it. They have Holmes in front of Dallas Clark. I'd take Clark over Holmes any day. Besides Ray Lewis in the top 10 really, really?


What is with all the Walter hate these days. He had a down this year, but he's still solid. I'd rather have Leach and Walter, over Holmes anyday. If OD is back healthy, Walter will be over 750 yards this year.


PS: I'll take Breaston in a heartbeat. Hell I'd rather give Sims-Walker a look over Holmes, we had 2 guys miss 4 games last year for various substance related reasons, we don't need him in the mix.
 
Lucky said:
Since 2006, Holmes has had (9) games of 100+ receiving yards. That's not counting his Super Bowl MVP performance. Walter, Jones, and Breaston have combined for the same amount (9) over the same period. So, it's a no-brainer that Holmes is much better than what the Texans currently have, or what's available in the 2nd tier of free agency.

Forget the character issues for a moment. Would the Texans get the most out of Santonio Holmes? With AJ, Foster, and Daniels, the Texans already have a wealth of offensive weapons. And Schaub's forte isn't throwing downfield. I think Holmes has more value to other teams, and that's a legit reason he wouldn't wind up in Houston. Mix in the character issues, and he just doesn't make sense here.

And why is it Leach vs WR2? Leach will get nowhere near the $$$ that Holmes will pull. The premise of the thread is flawed. Elite WR2 or #1 CB? That's the legit tradeoff. And the answer should be obvious to anyone who watches the Texans on a semi-regular basis.
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I think when evaluating the small, quick WR (i.e. Steve Smith, Santonio Holmes) you constantly underrate their yards after catch ability. Obviously Schaub will have problems constantly hitting them downfield in stride, but their value to us is the short to mid range game and their ability to make plays with the ball in their hands. We don't currently have that guy on our team. 'Dre can do it, but he'd better using his size and physicality.

We could use a guy that can make people miss.
 
Leach vs. Elite #2 WR, I'd take Leach. Few things work well on this team and we're in no position to start F'n with something that works. Don't be stupid, if it works don't screw with it.
 
DocBar said:
You're gonna have to do better than Santonio Holmes if you want a bona fide #2 WR. Holmes wouldn't be rd on our depth chart and maybe not even 4th. Now if it came down to a healthy Steve Breaston or Leach, I might pause. Then I would sign Leach and hope like hell Dorin Dickerson puts it together this year.
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Steve Breaston more valuable than Santonio Holmes? What are you smoking? Santonio Holmes is one of the top playmaking receivers in this league.
 
Give me Plax and Atari Bigby with the Leach $$$$.

While I appreciate what Leach does I believe Casey will do a good job in his place. Plus you get to fill 2 major holes on this team by letting Leach walk. (WR.2 and SS)

Not in the Leach case, but in other cases people over value some players already on the Texans roster. (See Pollard, DA, Slaton etc...) These guys are very replaceable.
 
ObsiWan said:
The ladies, SheTexan & GlassHalfFull, have nailed it. If this is truly a run-first offense then you do what is necessary to keep the running game strong. Re-sign Leach.

Can Santonio Holmes run block? Our WRs have to do that in this offense.

Leach brings positive chemistry to the locker room. I've a feeling that Holmes would bring unnecessary diva-type drama. Leach is a known and solid commodity. Holmes is a risky investment at best.
just my :twocents:

having said all that, I'm not sure why this needs to be an either/or situation anyway
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Im with Obi and the girls ..... This is a game of inches won in the trenches.
 
Rey said:
I know someone will post stats to prove otherwise, but this isn't a stretch the field offense. I'm pretty sure we pick up great yardage through the air, but we don't really run a lot of fly routes.

We run a lot of post routes and deep ins, but we rarely ask a receiver to outrun the guy holding him and let Matt throw it up to them and the fastest guy wins.

I think jacoby could probably do that, Aj too. But that isn't our offense and that isn't our qb's strong suit.
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Eddie George with Lorenzo Neal = Awesome ground game that noone could stop.

Eddie George with no Lorenzo Neal = eventually went to play for the Dallas Cowboys and we haven't heard from him since.

Do the right thing, pay the man who has not only helped Foster look good but Steve Slaton and even Ryan Moats got to look like a stud every now and then. AJ can make any new WR we get (Steve Breaston) look pretty awesome.
 
DocBar said:
So is Breaston when healthy and having a QB with a pulse to deliver the ball.
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Steve Breaston 2006-2010: 8 TDs, 13.51 YPC

Santonio Holmes 2006-2010: 24 TDs, 15.78 YPC

That's just regular season.

Postseason stats are as follows:

Steve Breaston 2006-2010 (6 games): 1 TD, 13.54 YPC

Santonio Holmes 2006-2010 (7 games): 6 TDs, 16.08 YPC

Breaston is the same type of player as Santonio, but not nearly as effective in my opinion. I don't think they are even in the same conversation. Santonio Holmes makes plays that end up in touchdowns and he does it in big situations.
 
Dutchrudder said:
I think you're wrong, but feel free to find some stats that support your claim.
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Steve Breaston has had 1 good QB throwing to him and played behind Fitzgerald and Bolden. He has a reputation as a selfless player, tireless worker and great teammate. It's hard to imagine anyone having decent stats on a team like this.
Look at how much AJ struggled when HWWNBN was throwing him the ball. He's the best receiver in football and he had a rough time with a poor QB.
Here, and here are some links that show he has good value.
Let's not forget that Holmes didn't put up eye-popping numbers despite being on a pass happy Pittsburgh team. I think some are going off of name recognition and watch too much ESPN.
 
DocBar said:
Steve Breaston has had 1 good QB throwing to him and played behind Fitzgerald and Bolden. He has a reputation as a selfless player, tireless worker and great teammate. It's hard to imagine anyone having decent stats on a team like this.
Look at how much AJ struggled when HWWNBN was throwing him the ball. He's the best receiver in football and he had a rough time with a poor QB.
Here, and here are some links that show he has good value.
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Steve Breaston is not a bad receiver, he should be considered for a fair WR2 salary.

DocBar said:
Let's not forget that Holmes didn't put up eye-popping numbers despite being on a pass happy Pittsburgh team.
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He had a 1,200 yard season in 2009. He was first or second for the Steelers in receiving yards and 20+ yard receptions from his rookie year in 2007 through 2009. Hines Ward is no slouch and the 1-2 punch he and Holmes provided was deadly. Cleary, as they won the Super Bowl in 2009.

He put up some good numbers there, even with Hines Ward, Heath Miller, Mike Wallace, and Nate Washington competing for catches.

DocBar said:
I think some are going off of name recognition and watch too much ESPN.
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I am not going off name recognition. I've seen him make play, after play, after play...

As ArlingtonTexan said, Holmes will go for #1 money. He will most likely get the best contract for a WR, as he is the youngest playmaker of the free agent group.

The Texans need to focus on getting one of the top 4 cornerbacks: Nnamdi, Joseph, Cromartie, or Ike Taylor. We will also need to sign atleast one other experienced and competent secondary player. After that, if we have money, then we can use it on a playmaker on offense. After we resign our key players, including Leach.
 
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Who else thinks Casey can do a fine job blocking and add a new denension to the offense in the passing game.

BTW, I love how Leach plays the game (Physical) But Casey can be a reasonable facsimile. IMHO
 
steelbtexan said:
Who else thinks Casey can do a fine job blocking and add a new denension to the offense in the passing game.

BTW, I love how Leach plays the game (Physical) But Casey can be a reasonable facsimile. IMHO
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Casey has some durability concerns that would make that move risky in my viewpoint.
 
steelbtexan said:
Who else thinks Casey can do a fine job blocking and add a new denension to the offense in the passing game.

BTW, I love how Leach plays the game (Physical) But Casey can be a reasonable facsimile. IMHO
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I think those two guys would be different types of FBs. Leach is a really physical guy who catche a pass here or there, but is a blocker first. Casey would be more position style blocker who can catch and run above what most FBs do in the NFL.

Honestly, I have not made up my mind if Leach is so good that the Texans "can't do w/o him"
 
ArlingtonTexan said:
I think those two guys would be different types of FBs. Leach is a really physical guy who catche a pass here or there, but is a blocker first. Casey would be more position style blocker who can catch and run above what most FBs do in the NFL.

Honestly, I have not made up my mind if Leach is so good that the Texans "can't do w/o him"
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I like having Leach. He gives us a physical presence that no other FB in the league provides IMO. We could do without him, but how are we going to get to the Superbowl letting our advantages go?

Casey has value on this offense, especially if someone gets hurt and we are forced to rely on creating new ways to move the chains, etc. He can play TE (slot) and FB.
 
TexansSeminole said:
Steve Breaston is not a bad receiver, he should be considered for a fair WR2 salary.
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We're talking about a #2 WR. I hope we're not looking to over pay a #2 WR with #1Wr money when we already have the best receiver in football.


He had a 1,200 yard season in 2009. He was first or second for the Steelers in receiving yards and 20+ yard receptions from his rookie year in 2007 through 2009. Hines Ward is no slouch and the 1-2 punch he and Holmes provided was deadly. Cleary, as they won the Super Bowl in 2009.
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Breaston had a 1,000 yd season behind Fitzgerald and Boldin. Both of those guys are head and shoulders above anyone the Steelers have fielded since Stallworth and Swann. The year Holmes led the Steelers in yds, he didn't crack 1,000.
He put up some good numbers there, even with Hines Ward, Heath Miller, Mike Wallace, and Nate Washington competing for catches.
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Now you can argue that the Steelers had a lot of weapons. What do you think the Cards had when Warner was tossing the ball? I guess you would say Fitz and Boldin aren't slouches, either. Talk about getting the lion's share of the touches.




I am not going off name recognition. I've seen him make play, after play, after play...

As ArlingtonTexan said, Holmes will go for #1 money. He will most likely get the best contract for a WR, as he is the youngest playmaker of the free agent group.

The Texans need to focus on getting one of the top 4 cornerbacks: Nnamdi, Joseph, Cromartie, or Ike Taylor. We will also need to sign atleast one other experienced and competent secondary player. After that, if we have money, then we can use it on a playmaker on offense. After we resign our key players, including Leach.
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My point exactly is you could very well land Leach and Breaston and dramatically improve our #2 WR spot while keeping our battering ram. You won't find Breaston running sloppy routes or dropping routine passes.
 
DocBar said:
Breaston had a 1,000 yd season behind Fitzgerald and Boldin. Both of those guys are head and shoulders above anyone the Steelers have fielded since Stallworth and Swann. The year Holmes led the Steelers in yds, he didn't crack 1,000.
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Holmes led the Steelers in receiving yards in 2007 with 942 and in 2009 with 1,248. Hines Ward also had 1,167 in 2009. What's the beef with Santonio Holmes? I'm not advocating we spend the money to get him, just that he is one of the better playmaking WRs in the league.

DocBar said:
My point exactly is you could very well land Leach and Breaston and dramatically improve our #2 WR spot while keeping our battering ram. You won't find Breaston running sloppy routes or dropping routine passes.
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I wouldn't be opposed to that if we can get some key defensive players.
 
The free agency selections like our recent draft should overwhelmingly focus on defense imo. This is the year we can make huge gains in both team roster and fan approval. Git er done!
 
I'm a little puzzled by your lack of faith in Holmes, Doc. He isn't Andre Johnson, but he is a legit threat down the field and widely considered light years ahead of anyone else in the free agent market.
 
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