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Pre-draft O-Line Shuffle
- Thread starter blockhead83
- Start date
PokerStar
Waterboy
Blu if Winston falls he is definately our pick unless something weird happens. Also, I see alot of talk being made about Wand working at LT. I would not get to excited, he will not be there come game time. Look for Pitts to hold down the LT and Wand, Weigert, and a draft pick to hold down the RT. Weigert will be the starter and with his injury history Wand and the draft pick should get some snaps. Now I am assuming Todd Wade gets his pink slip on June 1st so things could change. Still Wand is not a LT and the sacks he would give up would just kill us. Hopefully he will get a fire under him, because word is that he plays like a lower region female body part.(rhymes with Wussy)
JohnGalt
Noob
PokerStar said:
That rumor was started by Pendry and frankly I don't see anyone can accept his opinion on linemen anymore.
That's a big statement for someone hiding behind an alias on a message board. Personally, I don't think you can question the toughness of anyone that is on a NFL team.
I've read scouting reports that describe Wand as level-headed and unlikely to lose his cool. Pendry wanted a guy that would snap and get mean. When personal fouls and emotional mistakes can kill a drive, I personally would prefer the "cold-blooded killer" type at LT than the beserker.
There are times I wish I was a moderator so I could help clean up the garbage.
However, back on point. Counting on a 2nd, 3rd, or later round OL draft choice to be an instant starter is more risky than playing your NFL experienced 2nd and 3rd round draft choices. Especially since qualified coaches have studied the game film and personally worked with the players we have.
I guess the next thing we'll see is a Fire Sherman thread, because he has the audacity to suggest Pitts not play left tackle. The nerve of that man! Who does he think he is? How is he even remotely qualified to make that decision? I'll bet Benton has a hand in this too! What about Kubiak? Wait until he finds out!
We didn't even pursue free agent left tackles - the coaches have confidence in what they are doing and some of the talent they have. These coaches have proven to be good at their jobs. They are going to make this work without having to take backward steps and starting over.
However, back on point. Counting on a 2nd, 3rd, or later round OL draft choice to be an instant starter is more risky than playing your NFL experienced 2nd and 3rd round draft choices. Especially since qualified coaches have studied the game film and personally worked with the players we have.
I guess the next thing we'll see is a Fire Sherman thread, because he has the audacity to suggest Pitts not play left tackle. The nerve of that man! Who does he think he is? How is he even remotely qualified to make that decision? I'll bet Benton has a hand in this too! What about Kubiak? Wait until he finds out!
We didn't even pursue free agent left tackles - the coaches have confidence in what they are doing and some of the talent they have. These coaches have proven to be good at their jobs. They are going to make this work without having to take backward steps and starting over.
Texans Horror
All Pro
Sherman wanted Wand back when he was drafted. For that reason alone, I wouldn't doubt it if when Sherman was asked if he needed a left tackle, he said "No thanks. Got one already."
I'm not sure I'd call him a cold-blooded killer, but Wand is a very calm player, and he also has the athleticism to play a zone offense. He is probably one of the best-suited, if not the best-suited, player for the line right now.
As far as improving the line, I agree that odds are we lose Wade/Weigert during the season, so bringing in Eric Winston (if he falls to the second round) would be a great pick for the Texans.
I'm not sure I'd call him a cold-blooded killer, but Wand is a very calm player, and he also has the athleticism to play a zone offense. He is probably one of the best-suited, if not the best-suited, player for the line right now.
As far as improving the line, I agree that odds are we lose Wade/Weigert during the season, so bringing in Eric Winston (if he falls to the second round) would be a great pick for the Texans.
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
Buffi2 said:
This alone should remove all doubt that Pendry was clueless
..and Capers was gutless letting Pendry make that move..
I've been in Wands corner through it all. I may be wrong, Boselli might have been wrong, but until Wand is given a decent chance with a real coach I will keep the faith. I think Wand will play at a very high level for years to come.
Feel free to remind me how wrong I am at the end of the year
..if Sherman doesn't upgrade Wands play. 
If you read other teams message boards you will see that the Texans O-line is notorious around the league. Buffalo fans think Moulds was insane to go to a team with such a poor o-line. ALL football fans will have to SEE improvment on the field before that tag is removed. The moves that have been made or not made don't make a bit of diffrence when it comes to league wide perception. D's will bring it hard the 1st few games. If Kubiak and the Texans are ready for it, they will stop soon enough.
Jwwillis said:
I'd rate Buffalo fans' opinions below Texans fans' opinions as far as our team goes. Surprisingly to some, I'd rate all of these fans' opinions below Kubiak's, Sherman's, Benton's, etc.
However, I'm open minded. Maybe we should start a poll on who the o-line should be. Then we could send the results to the coaching staff and they can quit wasting so much time evaluating players.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
I saw a post somewhere showing that, as bad as Wand's rookie numbers were, Pitts were actually worse. Obviously Pitts has improved dramatically and I think Wand will too. Some also think that Pitts is better suited for LG than anything else and would be a monster there. I don't know who will be best at LT in the long run.
I agree totally about taking Winston at 33, if possible.
I agree totally about taking Winston at 33, if possible.
PokerStar
Waterboy
Guys why all the hostility toward me for saying what people in the organization have said. His toughness is questioned. I say call the Strength Coaches show on Saturdays and ask him. He just might tell you. He might even tell you that TJ is a 260lb guy carrying around 40+lbs of just pure fat.
I did not say Wand was not good, I think I said he would challenge for the RT spot, but dont blame me cause of what has been said. I am not talking about that joke Pendry who was cashing it in anyway, I am talking about people still with the franchise. Either way believe what you will. I still think Wand is better suited at RT and could eventually if that fire gets lit be that other bookend with Pitts.
Also, I am not an overly small guy. I am a little chubby now, good food, great beer and all, but not a small guy by any means.
I did not say Wand was not good, I think I said he would challenge for the RT spot, but dont blame me cause of what has been said. I am not talking about that joke Pendry who was cashing it in anyway, I am talking about people still with the franchise. Either way believe what you will. I still think Wand is better suited at RT and could eventually if that fire gets lit be that other bookend with Pitts.
Also, I am not an overly small guy. I am a little chubby now, good food, great beer and all, but not a small guy by any means.
Number19
Hall of Fame
I have re-evaluated my grade for Winston, downward, since learning he has 32 1/4" arm length. 33" is considered the NFL minimum for LT, and his success at this position is certainly now in question.Blu said:With the #33(2nd Round) The Texans should pick Winston OT from Miami (FL). I know he had some problems with a knee but he can push folks around like nothing.
PokerStar said:
So in the first paragraph you say to ask the people in the organization and they'll tell you.
The coaches have him at left tackle. However, in the second paragraph you ignore that and say he'll compete for the right tackle spot.
Is there a list of people in the organization we should believe and ignore? To start the list I'd guess you are saying trust Dan Riley but not Mike Sherman. Is this correct?
=========================================
Why the hostility? I'd suggest you go back and edit out the so cleverly hidden profanity and see how that works. If you give respect, you'll get it from me. I know you offended at least one woman on this board.
=========================================
Edited to add: By the way, I trust Dan Riley's opinions. I posted here a year ago that the strength and conditioning guys weren't very high on the excessive practicing in extreme heat the team did in training camp. Riley should really like the Denver style training methods that have been brought in. My problem is, I trust Mike Sherman's evaluations too.
Coach C.
Veteran
Wow first Pokerstar seems like you struck a nerve. Funny though. Dont get to discouraged Runner gets on tiffs.
Runner you know as you seemed to be a good poster and steadily well informed that during OTAs and other minicamp workouts they will try a variety of people at different spots. I seriously doubt that Wand gets the nod over Pitts at LT. Pitts has played T most of his football life, and has proven to be an adequate and possibly above average one at that. Wand has proven to be at least in my opinion adequate, but likely nothing more. Do I say think it is because our old coaching staff was inept that he did not see time, no I think it is because he did not perform. See Peek saw time, because he was a terror on the field, Riley saw time because in practice he looked like he might be able to block someone, Wand did not see time because he did not get his job done.
Dan Riley has a pretty good insight on players, when it comes to toughness, so I would listen to him on issues such as, but you are right Sherman makes the decisions and his process should be trusted.
Either way Runner and Pokerstar cool your jets. And Pokerstar get in the gym big man if your'e feeling chunky.
Runner you know as you seemed to be a good poster and steadily well informed that during OTAs and other minicamp workouts they will try a variety of people at different spots. I seriously doubt that Wand gets the nod over Pitts at LT. Pitts has played T most of his football life, and has proven to be an adequate and possibly above average one at that. Wand has proven to be at least in my opinion adequate, but likely nothing more. Do I say think it is because our old coaching staff was inept that he did not see time, no I think it is because he did not perform. See Peek saw time, because he was a terror on the field, Riley saw time because in practice he looked like he might be able to block someone, Wand did not see time because he did not get his job done.
Dan Riley has a pretty good insight on players, when it comes to toughness, so I would listen to him on issues such as, but you are right Sherman makes the decisions and his process should be trusted.
Either way Runner and Pokerstar cool your jets. And Pokerstar get in the gym big man if your'e feeling chunky.
Coach C. said:
First of all, tiffs? I think I bring out logical arguments when I disagree with someone. Is it a tiff because I disagree with you? Is there some evidence that Riley shouldn't have played 4 games at tackle before he was replaced? If so, there is some logic that he might not have looked so good in camp. He was on pace to give up something like 26 sacks by himself after 4 games. You can defend Pendry's decision there if you like.
Second of all, "seemed to be a good poster, well informed, and so on" - did you really mean "seemed" - past tense? I still want to be a good, well-informed poster.
Third - do I like to root for the small school underdog? Sure.
Fourth - Sherman really likes Wand. That's a fact. Sherman is a good coach. That's a fact. The Wand detractors (for lack of a better term) are arguing on a slippery slope right now. Many keep sliding down the slope of negativity - 1) he'll be cut 2) oh he's on the team - he'll be adequate depth 3) oh - Sherman has him as the #1 tackle on the depth chart - that doesn't mean anything. 4) I expect if he's number one on the chart after camp I'll be hearing that won't last till the 1st game, at which time 5) I'll hear it won't last the year. As much as you assume I am wrong about this, take a few seconds to consider that you might also be in error. If you look at my posting history you'll see me taking mea culpas when presented with convincing evidence. Too many people here know everything and won't ever change their minds for fear of looking weak.
Fifth - back to the tiff thing. About 5 people jumped on his post, not just me - thanks for picking me out though. One young lady asked me directly about the crudity. This is a rare message board - many people like the civility here and are disappointed when people can't find a more interesting way to express an opinion than gutter talk. By the way, I've been known to be a bit of a maculosum os myself, so crudity doesn't bother me all that much.
Sixth - cool my jets? I'm not even mad. Shoot, I give rep to people I strongly disagree with when they give me an interesting argument, even if it doesn't change my mind.
Number19
Hall of Fame
It seems there has never been an answer as to why Wand was demoted last year. But comparing Pitts first year as a starter (2002) to Wands first year as a starter (2004) gives these statistics :
False Start Penalties....Wand...1........ .Pitts...3
Holding Penalties.........Wand...2..........Pitts...5
Sacks.......................Wand...12.5......Pitts...15.5
http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/index.asp
I went back and researched several top ranked OT's from the 2003 draft - Jordan Gross, Kwame Harris and Jon Stinchcomb - who were ranked just ahead of Wand. The combine numbers show why Wand was on team's radar as a mid-round prospect. Included is Colledge & Winston from this year's prospects. One or both may be available at #33. But I wouldn't lay odds that either will slip to the third round. It's easy to see why the coaches need to get some idea whether Wand will realize his potential - before the draft.
......................Wand.....Gross.......Stinchcomb......Harris.........Colledge.........Winston
40 yd dash........5.14.......5.05...........4.99..............5.20...........5.05..............4.94
20 yd dash........2.95.......2.92...........2.90..............2.96...........2.91..............2.89
10 yd dash........1.75.......1.78...........1.75..............1.73...........1.71..............1.70
225# reps...........20........28...............32................. ---.............21...............22
vert jump...........31.5......31.5............35.................35.5..........32.5................33
broad jump.........8-11.....9-4..............9-7................8-11..........9-2...............9-0
short shuttle.......4.50.....4.39............4.62..............4.65............4.60..............4.49
3 cone...............7.61.....7.69............7.83..............7.98............7.46..............7.47
wonderlic.............20........40...............37..................30
Wand's big negative is his wonderlic, which was predictable because of his known learning disability. He also needed to gain strength.
But particularly note his short shuttle and 3 cone times.
False Start Penalties....Wand...1........ .Pitts...3
Holding Penalties.........Wand...2..........Pitts...5
Sacks.......................Wand...12.5......Pitts...15.5
http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/index.asp
I went back and researched several top ranked OT's from the 2003 draft - Jordan Gross, Kwame Harris and Jon Stinchcomb - who were ranked just ahead of Wand. The combine numbers show why Wand was on team's radar as a mid-round prospect. Included is Colledge & Winston from this year's prospects. One or both may be available at #33. But I wouldn't lay odds that either will slip to the third round. It's easy to see why the coaches need to get some idea whether Wand will realize his potential - before the draft.
......................Wand.....Gross.......Stinchcomb......Harris.........Colledge.........Winston
40 yd dash........5.14.......5.05...........4.99..............5.20...........5.05..............4.94
20 yd dash........2.95.......2.92...........2.90..............2.96...........2.91..............2.89
10 yd dash........1.75.......1.78...........1.75..............1.73...........1.71..............1.70
225# reps...........20........28...............32................. ---.............21...............22
vert jump...........31.5......31.5............35.................35.5..........32.5................33
broad jump.........8-11.....9-4..............9-7................8-11..........9-2...............9-0
short shuttle.......4.50.....4.39............4.62..............4.65............4.60..............4.49
3 cone...............7.61.....7.69............7.83..............7.98............7.46..............7.47
wonderlic.............20........40...............37..................30
Wand's big negative is his wonderlic, which was predictable because of his known learning disability. He also needed to gain strength.
But particularly note his short shuttle and 3 cone times.
Number19 said:
That's not what I found funny - I question almost anyone who is slotted to be a lock at LT; it is a tough postion to play. I agree that Winston's success at LT would have to be proven on the NFL field.
I just thought the 3/4" was funny.
I really don't get in frequent tiffs as I've been portrayed.
Number19
Hall of Fame
I agree with your explanation.
What I failed to include in my remarks is that even after Winston had largely recovered from his injury, some scouts were noticing that he was still having some problems "locking on" with certain pass rushers. I also found mentioned that it was generally assumed he had long arms. So when he was measured at 32 1/4" at the Senior Bowl, this was naturally commented upon and raised new question marks about his transition to the pro game - as a LT.
What I failed to include in my remarks is that even after Winston had largely recovered from his injury, some scouts were noticing that he was still having some problems "locking on" with certain pass rushers. I also found mentioned that it was generally assumed he had long arms. So when he was measured at 32 1/4" at the Senior Bowl, this was naturally commented upon and raised new question marks about his transition to the pro game - as a LT.
Texans Horror
All Pro
Number19 said:
Good point about the injury. If the Texans take Winston, I would like to think it is a bit like the Buffs drafting McGahee - it is being done with the intention of not playing him and giving him more time to heal. Blown knees need rest. A year playing backup would probably do wonders for him.
Coach C.
Veteran
Runner you dont have to defend anything that was said, I posted toward both you and Pokerstar. And yes you "seem" fine.
Anyway as for Winston. He is graded out as the third best lineman in the draft, and likely will not make it out of the first round. His knee is fine and has been checked, rechecked, and medically cleared. His psyche about the knee he is not over yet. He still will favor a cross-over sometimes rather than a slide, that is just him thinking about the knee. Winston is close to if not the smartest OL as far as football IQ goes in this draft, and would upgrade our line quickly. He is one of the lineman more ready to play, and will be a steal if he drops to 33 or if we trade down and get him with an extra pick.
Anyway as for Winston. He is graded out as the third best lineman in the draft, and likely will not make it out of the first round. His knee is fine and has been checked, rechecked, and medically cleared. His psyche about the knee he is not over yet. He still will favor a cross-over sometimes rather than a slide, that is just him thinking about the knee. Winston is close to if not the smartest OL as far as football IQ goes in this draft, and would upgrade our line quickly. He is one of the lineman more ready to play, and will be a steal if he drops to 33 or if we trade down and get him with an extra pick.
Texans Horror
All Pro
If the Texans take Winston
There are many factors in addition to when he is picked up, and there are other zone blocking linemen, so I don't think he is a must-have pick. Then again, I think the front office did well enough in the offseason that there are no "must haves" on the team (no glaring holes). It would be nice to groom a tackle or pull a cornerback/safety. IMO, whichever of those three positions is the best player available, you take that guy.
There are many factors in addition to when he is picked up, and there are other zone blocking linemen, so I don't think he is a must-have pick. Then again, I think the front office did well enough in the offseason that there are no "must haves" on the team (no glaring holes). It would be nice to groom a tackle or pull a cornerback/safety. IMO, whichever of those three positions is the best player available, you take that guy.
How about Colledge... His #'s look terrific, and he might be available in the third round. I've also read several places that he'd be a perfect LT for the Denver zone blocking scheme.
I know Winston's ranking, but I've seen him play over the past year and have never been impressed. It's just hard to overcome that feeling...
No good DBs will be there in the 3rd, however, so I think despite our OL needs, we need to go with a DB in round 2. Winston won't be there in round 3.
Sorry... guess that got a bit off topic...
I know Winston's ranking, but I've seen him play over the past year and have never been impressed. It's just hard to overcome that feeling...
No good DBs will be there in the 3rd, however, so I think despite our OL needs, we need to go with a DB in round 2. Winston won't be there in round 3.
Sorry... guess that got a bit off topic...
SAMURAITEXAN
All Pro
In case Winston doen't falls for Texans' 2nd round pick, the Texans are more than likely to pick DB BPA. It seems to me like OL prospects like Colledge, Scott, Joseph should still be able in the 3rd round anyway(at least one of three mentioned OL prospects)IMO. When Kubiak was OC for Broncos, the most of the OL were drafted from mid or later rounds? I think it would be more difficult to find good DB especially, this year's DB prospects look very impressive.AUSTexan said:
What if Cromartie falls in the 2nd round? What if Cromartie and Winston both falls in the 2nd round? Do we still take Winston? What ifs gives me headache!!:brickwall
SAMURAITEXAN
All Pro
In case Winston doen't falls for Texans' 2nd round pick, the Texans are more than likely to pick DB BPA. It seems to me like OL prospects like Colledge, Scott, Joseph should still be able in the 3rd round anyway(at least one of three mentioned OL prospects)IMO. When Kubiak was OC for Broncos, the most of the OL were drafted from mid to later rounds(correct me if I'm wrong on this). I think it would be more difficult to find good DB and especially, this year's DB prospects look very impressive.AUSTexan said:
What if Cromartie falls in the 2nd round? What if Cromartie and Winston both falls in the 2nd round? Do we still take Winston? What ifs gives me headache!!:brickwall
I too apologize for a bit off topic but, when I think about drafting OL in the 2nd round, I always ran into the above questions. Should we go for DB in the 2nd round or OL?
College Texan
Waterboy
I think the team should think about putting Pitts at RG and playing Wand at LT, Mckinney at LG and Hodgon to back him up there, Us drafting College and Eslinger, and keeping Weigert at RT. The line would look as follows.
----Wand--Mckinney--Flanagan--Pitts--Weigert
this way we have College to learn while Weigert playes out his days, the same with Eslinger learning under Flanagan, Putting out most consistent lineman to anchor the interior (reasoning with Pitts at RG b/c of his size) and us finally drafting a LT (Joe Thomas) with next years first, while Wand gets a chance to prove himself.
----Wand--Mckinney--Flanagan--Pitts--Weigert
this way we have College to learn while Weigert playes out his days, the same with Eslinger learning under Flanagan, Putting out most consistent lineman to anchor the interior (reasoning with Pitts at RG b/c of his size) and us finally drafting a LT (Joe Thomas) with next years first, while Wand gets a chance to prove himself.
Texans Horror
All Pro
Interesting concept. I've wondered about switching the guards, too, but mainly because I have questioned how well Pitts would block for his replacement. I would like to think that they are all professionals and look at it strictly from a business standpoint, but I know the reality is that emotions do become involved and while Pitts was a very strong LG, some of the posters have noted that one of the reasons he looked better is he received more assistance from the guard than Wand did.College Texan said:
Will we be able to pick up Eslinger? I always saw him as a first-rounder.
College Texan
Waterboy
Every year there is that forth rounder that seems to pan out for us. This year I think it will either be an offensive lineman or a tight end. Eslinger lasting till the fourth could be that pick for us this year.
Draft 1) Bush 2) Marcus McNeill, second highest rated OT and expected to be there in the 2nd round. 3) 2 picks CB Cedrick Griffin & OT Jonathan Scott
4) MLB D'Qwell Jackson to back up Sam the Man Cowart and possibly Start by end of Season. Rounds 5) no pick 6) Safety or CB 7) 2 picks OG, DT, DE.
AHHHH> The perfect Draft!!!!
Texans OL = LT McNeill with Wand his backup, LG Pitts, C Flanagan
RG McKinny, RT Wiegert with Scott his backup (Weary Hodgden
and Wade backups) Could put Wade on the Trading Block
I wish we could Pick Vince Young # 1 but Carr fits Coach Kubiak's System. So BUSH has to be the Pick. If they Pick anyone else at 1 say a DL or OT and they don't work out The TEXANS and the FANS might as well throw in the Towel because there won't be a TEAM in Houston after a couple of BAD SEASONS especially since we didn't Draft Young.
4) MLB D'Qwell Jackson to back up Sam the Man Cowart and possibly Start by end of Season. Rounds 5) no pick 6) Safety or CB 7) 2 picks OG, DT, DE.
AHHHH> The perfect Draft!!!!
Texans OL = LT McNeill with Wand his backup, LG Pitts, C Flanagan
RG McKinny, RT Wiegert with Scott his backup (Weary Hodgden
and Wade backups) Could put Wade on the Trading Block
I wish we could Pick Vince Young # 1 but Carr fits Coach Kubiak's System. So BUSH has to be the Pick. If they Pick anyone else at 1 say a DL or OT and they don't work out The TEXANS and the FANS might as well throw in the Towel because there won't be a TEAM in Houston after a couple of BAD SEASONS especially since we didn't Draft Young.
Ibar_Harry
All Pro
There was a whole thread on this article and subject sometime ago.
SAMURAITEXAN
All Pro
Yap. A few weeks ago.Ibar_Harry said: