Is It Really Smart To Draft OL In 1st?

Tha_Tinman · Mar 2, 2006

Let's just have a look at the offensive line of the current SuperBowl Champions ...shall we?

LT Marvel Smith 2nd Round 7th pick 38th Overall 2000
LG Alan Faneca 1st Round 26th 26th 1998 Pro Bowl
C Jeff Hartings 1st Round 23rd 23rd 1996 Pro Bowl
RG Kendall Simmons 1st Round 30th 2002
RT Max Starks 3rd Round 12th 75th Overall 2002

I don't remember hearing anything bad about these guys ...you can get quality linemen in later picks. I see no need to blow a top 10 pick on a lineman. It is also notable that all but one of these guys were drafted by the Steelers.

Now, the Texans have been around since 2002 ...Soooooo Who WAS taken in the first ...Lets see.

2002 1st Round 4th Pick Mike Williams - was just released by the Bills

1st Round 10th Pick Levi Jones - actually not bad, and team was 11-5 w/disappointing playoff loss this year

1st Round 29th Pick Marc Colombo - Was CUT by the Bears, picked up by the Cowboys and is now a backup

2003 1st Round 8th Pick Jordan Gross - Ok. I'll give ya THIS guy.

1st Round 20th Pick George Foster - Missed entire rookie season after being injured on THE FIRST DAY OF TRAINING CAMP!

1st Round 26th Pick Kwame Harris - His team has been 1 of the worst since he's been there, not saying it's his fault, I'm just saying!

2004 1st Round 2nd Pick Robert Gallery - In 2yrs played 32 games and is actually pretty good. But his team was 4-12 last year. So big deal.

16th Pick Shawn Andrews - missed rookie season due to injury. Bounced back but this year his team ...6-10 ...again Big deal

2005 1st Round 13th Pick Jammal Brown - started 13 games as a rooke for the SAINTS ...so what?!?

1st Round 19th Pick Alex Barron - His coach got fired after his rookie season ...not saying it's HIS fault, etc etc

1st Round 26th Pick Chris Spencer - Not many Centers taken in the 1st, he must have been good! But who knows, he was a BACKUP all year. What a waste

1st Round 32 Pick Logan Mankins - A REALLY good pick up for the Pats ...but he's a LATE 1st rounder ...STRENGTHENS my argument

My conclusion ....Don't WASTE this pick on some OVERWEIGHT lineman, when we can build a SOLID and SUCCESSFUL line in later rounds.

michaelm · Mar 2, 2006

I don't disagree with your point. I think there are many good OL finds outside of the 1st round.
However, to me your argument really loses a lot of credibility due to poor reasoning.
Ok, Foster was injured but is now the Denver starter at RT.
Shawn Andrews should also not be looked upon as a bad pick due solely to an injury. Virtually all players get injured.
Harris, Gallery, Barron and Jammal Brown are all considered poor picks because their teams had losing records? come on... aren't all of these guys starters?
Also, Barron is a bad pick because Martz was fired? I guess Pace is a crappy LT under the conditions of your system...
And Spencer being a back up is not really a reason to grade him poorly yet. Center is the most difficult position to play on the Ol, and rookies aren't expected to come in and start right away at the position. The jury is still out on this one.
I get and agree with the point of your post, but to me you completely weaken your position with poor reasoning. It's really hard to take you seriously at all. It's almost to the point that if someone else comes along and calls this post trolling, I couldn't argue with them...

infantrycak · Mar 2, 2006

Well, it was sure hard to detect any slant in that analysis. The Steelers OL is not exactly a shining example of your point when they have 3 1st rounders and all 5 are 1st day picks--that is probably one of the heavier investments of draft choices in an OL. If you want examples of late round OL's, try looking up Denver and Atlanta (put together by Alex Gibbs/Shanahan/Kubiak)--you'll find more undrafted players than 1st day players.

thunderkyss · Mar 2, 2006

Infantrycak's got a pretty good point.....

Are you trying to be sarcastic?? or do you mean top 5 when you say high draft pick??

Spoda · Mar 2, 2006

that's exactly what i was thinking..they have 3 1st's and a high 2nd!!! lol...no they aren't top ten but that's where we are picking...and brick's what we need...plus others!!

stonedtexansfan · Mar 2, 2006

Of course we should take an OL in the first round if we were to trade down and he is the best player on the board. The last tackle taken with the first pick is a guy by the name of Orlando Pace. He's won a super bowl, been to another, and has a hotel room booked in Hawaii the week of the pro-bowl. D'Brick is being compared too Jon Odgen, and if he is half the player he is then its worth a top 10 pick. The question with D'Brick was size (up 15 pounds from senior bowl) and if he adds the bulk is he still as mobile as he was(wont now until his senior day). The question is do we take the OL over Mario Williams and pick up the OL in the second round?

Tha_Tinman · Mar 2, 2006

michaelm said:
I don't disagree with your point. I think there are many good OL finds outside of the 1st round.
However, to me your argument really loses a lot of credibility due to poor reasoning.
Ok, Foster was injured but is now the Denver starter at RT.
Shawn Andrews should also not be looked upon as a bad pick due solely to an injury. Virtually all players get injured.
Harris, Gallery, Barron and Jammal Brown are all considered poor picks because their teams had losing records? come on... aren't all of these guys starters?
Also, Barron is a bad pick because Martz was fired? I guess Pace is a crappy LT under the conditions of your system...
And Spencer being a back up is not really a reason to grade him poorly yet. Center is the most difficult position to play on the Ol, and rookies aren't expected to come in and start right away at the position. The jury is still out on this one.
I get and agree with the point of your post, but to me you completely weaken your position with poor reasoning. It's really hard to take you seriously at all. It's almost to the point that if someone else comes along and calls this post trolling, I couldn't argue with them...

Yeah you're right ...
I purposely slanted the review of these guys ...but only to make a point. I just REALLY wanna draft Vince. If not, for gosh sakes ...Draft Bush. But, the idea of drafting a lineman just doesn't make sense. If this team loses again ...which is possible EVEN if D'Brick does his job, then WE are ALL going to be critical of the decision to draft him. THAT was my point.

And I'm really not sure how dependable D'Brick is gonna be with all of this new weight. I mean seriously, when is he gonna stop? 325, 350? His frame really isn't accustomed to playing at that weight and I feel he's risking injury.

If you're gonna trade down ...pick up some value and draft Vernon Davis!!!!
That guy is a beast, and line him up with Andre Johnson ...they could give guys fits!

thunderkyss · Mar 2, 2006

Tha_Tinman said:
Yeah you're right ...
I purposely slanted the review of these guys ...but only to make a point. I just REALLY wanna draft Vince. If not, for gosh sakes ...

Well in that case, forget what I said.....

You have a good point... well thought out... I'm with you.

TheOgre · Mar 2, 2006

Tha_Tinman said:
Yeah you're right ...
I purposely slanted the review of these guys ...but only to make a point. I just REALLY wanna draft Vince. If not, for gosh sakes ...Draft Bush. But, the idea of drafting a lineman just doesn't make sense. If this team loses again ...which is possible EVEN if D'Brick does his job, then WE are ALL going to be critical of the decision to draft him. THAT was my point.

And I'm really not sure how dependable D'Brick is gonna be with all of this new weight. I mean seriously, when is he gonna stop? 325, 350? His frame really isn't accustomed to playing at that weight and I feel he's risking injury.

If you're gonna trade down ...pick up some value and draft Vernon Davis!!!!
That guy is a beast, and line him up with Andre Johnson ...they could give guys fits!

You sound like someone that just wants a flashy pick with our selection. We will be critical of whoever we draft if they are a bust and/or we continue to lose. IMO D'Brick could be our starting OLT for the next 10+ years. This team needs to start addressing its biggest needs or they are going to continue to struggle.

Corrosion · Mar 2, 2006

Tha_Tinman said:
Let's just have a look at the offensive line of the current SuperBowl Champions ...shall we?

LT Marvel Smith 2nd Round 7th pick 38th Overall 2000
LG Alan Faneca 1st Round 26th 26th 1998 Pro Bowl
C Jeff Hartings 1st Round 23rd 23rd 1996 Pro Bowl
RG Kendall Simmons 1st Round 30th 2002
RT Max Starks 3rd Round 12th 75th Overall 2002

I don't remember hearing anything bad about these guys ...you can get quality linemen in later picks. I see no need to blow a top 10 pick on a lineman. It is also notable that all but one of these guys were drafted by the Steelers.

By listing the Superbowl winning Pittsburgh Steelers O-line consisting of 3 first rounders , one second rounder and one third rounder .... ALL first day picks .... You shoot your own theory in the foot .

Isnt the point of playing the season to WIN THE SUPERBOWL ? If so then the Steelers have just driven home the point that games are won and lost in the trenches .

I dont think there is a QB in the NFL that could be successful behind the Texans pass blocking ....The Texans QB's have been sacked 229 times in the past 4 seasons . 208 by Carr , Banks 13 and Ragone 8.... I for one am sick to death of watching the offense struggle because of this .

thunderkyss · Mar 2, 2006

corrosion said:
By listing the Superbowl winning Pittsburgh Steelers O-line consisting of 3 first rounders , one second rounder and one third rounder .... ALL first day picks .... You shoot your own theory in the foot .

Isnt the point of playing the season to WIN THE SUPERBOWL ? If so then the Steelers have just driven home the point that games are won and lost in the trenches .

I dont think there is a QB in the NFL that could be successful behind the Texans pass blocking ....The Texans QB's have been sacked 229 times in the past 4 seasons . 208 by Carr , Banks 13 and Ragone 8.... I for one am sick to death of watching the offense struggle because of this .

Okay, but why are we(collectively) targeting D'Brick?? I don't know the kid, but I was seriously dissappointed with him at the combine..... main thing, that his weight, looks to be getting out of hand........ is this normal for him in the offseason?? wouldn't it make sense to keep stay close to playing weight, 'til after the combine??

I'm really likeing the sound of Denver's 2 #1s........ but some have said they are too low.....

Texas_Thrill · Mar 2, 2006

I'd also have to question....did you look at the drafts the year these guys were picked?

I mean you pretty much generalized each draft here. Some year's lineman are deeper so you can get talent deeper. Some years there is less so you might reach on a player.

Its no different with every other position. If Bush came out last year is he the top pick in the draft? Possibly but with the depth at running back you'd still have to WONDER.

TheOgre · Mar 2, 2006

thunderkyss said:
Okay, but why are we(collectively) targeting D'Brick?? I don't know the kid, but I was seriously dissappointed with him at the combine..... main thing, that his weight, looks to be getting out of hand........ is this normal for him in the offseason?? wouldn't it make sense to keep stay close to playing weight, 'til after the combine??

If anything the knock against D'Brick is that he plays too light (which is actually a plus in the Denver style of offense). He has purposefully put on weight to prove the critics wrong. He is not going to be able to add much more weight.

infantrycak · Mar 2, 2006

thunderkyss said:
Okay, but why are we(collectively) targeting D'Brick?? I don't know the kid, but I was seriously dissappointed with him at the combine..... main thing, that his weight, looks to be getting out of hand........ is this normal for him in the offseason?? wouldn't it make sense to keep stay close to playing weight, 'til after the combine??

D'Brick's biggest question mark coming into the draft was his playing weight--too low, not too high. People were worried he would never be able to get above 295 lbs or so. He has put on this weight to demonstrate he can gain it and carry it, not because he has poor off-season habits.

Oops Ogre beat me to it.

Tha_Tinman · Mar 2, 2006

corrosion said:
By listing the Superbowl winning Pittsburgh Steelers O-line consisting of 3 first rounders , one second rounder and one third rounder .... ALL first day picks .... You shoot your own theory in the foot .

Isnt the point of playing the season to WIN THE SUPERBOWL ? If so then the Steelers have just driven home the point that games are won and lost in the trenches .

I dont think there is a QB in the NFL that could be successful behind the Texans pass blocking ....The Texans QB's have been sacked 229 times in the past 4 seasons . 208 by Carr , Banks 13 and Ragone 8.... I for one am sick to death of watching the offense struggle because of this .

NO NO NO! Not at all ...What I said was ...I would never draft an OL with a TOP TEN PICK! The Steeler's guys were #23, #26, & #32. If we had a late 1st round pick like those ...and D'Brick was the best choice available ...then I'd stand on my feet and applaud at the selection.

That is not the case here.

Also,

TheOgre said:
You sound like someone that just wants a flashy pick with our selection. We will be critical of whoever we draft if they are a bust and/or we continue to lose. IMO D'Brick could be our starting OLT for the next 10+ years. This team needs to start addressing its biggest needs or they are going to continue to struggle.

1: Vince Young
2: Vernon Davis
3: Reggie Bush
4: Mario whatz his name ...the DE

I'd ONLY use the pick on Vince or Bush ...If I traded down ...I wouldn't get out of range to select The Duke or Mario ...otherwise the whole draft goes down the tube in my opinion. There are PLENTY of out of work and experience guys via FA for everything else. Teams are dumping guys like crazy right now.

SESupergenius · Mar 2, 2006

What position was Pace drafted and did he win a Super Bowl? Was Walter Jones picked up in the late 1st round? I'm sure Ogden wasn't picked in the top 10 right?

Well there goes that argument right out the window.

There really is no "formula" for picked offensive linemen.

Spoda · Mar 2, 2006

thunderkyss said:
Okay, but why are we(collectively) targeting D'Brick?? I don't know the kid, but I was seriously dissappointed with him at the combine..... main thing, that his weight, looks to be getting out of hand........ is this normal for him in the offseason?? wouldn't it make sense to keep stay close to playing weight, 'til after the combine??

I'm really likeing the sound of Denver's 2 #1s........ but some have said they are too low.....

wait a minute...wait a minute..lemme re-read that.....hmm you were disappointed? wow you are very harsh because he was considered to be THE shining star of the combine...at least from what i heard...i'm not saying take brick....i don't care what we do with the pick unless we take vince...that's the only mistake i think we could make...IMO....but i want to know how he was disappointing...just his weight?

TheOgre · Mar 2, 2006

The only thing is, that if you don't use a top 20 (and maybe even a top 10) selection on an OLT, you have almost no chance of getting a stud to play the position. That is more true of that position than any other on the field.

keyfro · Mar 2, 2006

so what are you saying exactly that if your team needs a offensive lineman and there is one available in the 1st round you shouldn't take him because the o-line isn't as important as the rest of the positions?...that's not right...you draft o-lineman in the first round when you think they will help your team...our team needs o-lineman...so it makes sense for us to draft one in the 1st round

killeentexan · Mar 2, 2006

Tha_Tinman said:
NO NO NO! Not at all ...What I said was ...I would never draft an OL with a TOP TEN PICK! The Steeler's guys were #23, #26, & #32. If we had a late 1st round pick like those ...and D'Brick was the best choice available ...then I'd stand on my feet and applaud at the selection.

That is not the case here.

.

Yeah, I agree....who would want Orlando Pace, Jonathen Ogden, Tony Boselli, Willie Roaf, Lincoln Kennedy, Walter Jones, Willie Anderson or Chris Samuels on our team? That's just to name a few of the tackles taken in the top ten over the past 10 years or so. Yes, a good tackle can be found in the mid to late 1st round, but a franchise caliber LT is almost always taken in the top 10. I want someone who will anchor our line for the next 10 years, protecting our QBs blind side.

Jerry · Mar 2, 2006

Willie Roaf - #8 pick in 1993, 11 Pro Bowls and counting
Tony Boselli - #2 pick in 1995, 5 Pro Bowls
Jonathen Ogden - #4 pick in 1996, 9 Pro Bowls and counting
Willie Anderson - #10 pick in 1996, 3 Pro Bowls
Orlando Pace - #1 pick in 1997, 7 Pro Bowls and counting
Walter Jones - #6 pick in 1997, 5 Pro Bowls and counting

Of the drafts since 2002, McKinney at #7 to MIN, Jones at #10 to CIN, Gross at #8 to CAR, and Foster at #20 to DEN (they must have thought very highly of him to use a 1st on him considering their o-line philosophy, have all been pretty successful, and the jury is still out on Gallery, although he looks promising. Shawn Andrews has moved to G and has been solid there when healthy. Having a bad team doesn't mean an individual player is bad.

HoustonFrog · Mar 2, 2006

I have said it a million times. Just my opinion 1) Kubiak's system doesn't call for a guy to be a Top 5 lineman. The O-coordinator on 610 said they took smaller, scrappier guys who loved to play and fit them in the system. They didn't take a guy higher than 20 in the first round and everyone else was FA or 4th round and below. 2) Pitt has a top line and all of their 1st rounders are around the 30th pick. Same with NE, who only has the one 1st rounder and lower guys. This bodes well for our first pick of the second round. 3) Why not get a skill guy on O or D and still be able to get a top of the line O-lineman in a deep O-lineman draft?We have 3 more picks in the Top 66.

The Broncos starting O-line this year was a 1st rounder(20th pick), 2 4th rounders, a 7th rounder and a rookie FA. Our new O-coordinator said that in Denver they found scrappy, smaller guys who loved to play the game. Those are guys you take with our 2 and 3 picks, not Top 5. Robert Gallery hasn't done a ton for the Raiders and there are other "can't miss" guys like Mandarich. O-lineman aren't guaranteed like any other position. Here is another team that was mentioned..the Patriots. Their line in 2005 was an undrafted FA (Neal), A 7th rounder at one tackle that was practice squad (Gorin), A 5th rounder that was let go by TB and put on NE practice squad (Hochstein), a 1st rounder (#32)(Mankins) and a 3rd rounder (Kaczur). When they had injuries Ashworth played alot and he was an undrafted FA of SF that was signed to the Patriots practice squad and moved up. All in all you can build a line with guys that aren't Top 5 picks and who fit the blocking scheme. It is the coaching. Hopefully we have corrected that.

Peldon · Mar 2, 2006

I keep hearing about how Denver built thier offensive line with lower round picks and see how it is relevent since we have their old coordinator. What I would like to know, though, is how long it took these lower round draft picks to become starters.

I would also like to know who these lower round picks, assuming they didn't start, sat behind their first few years. I would venture a guess that the players who were starting were much better than our current o-line, though I could be wrong. Denver has had a lot longer to develop thier players than we have had and probably had a strong o-line when these players were drafted.

I'm not saying we should definitley draft an offensive lineman in the first round but I think we should keep the option open. For those who want to draft o-linemen later I would like to know how long you expect it to be before they are able to benefit the team. If it takes years what is the benifit of having a playmaker when he will be older and battered before we can get someone to block for him.

keyfro · Mar 2, 2006

well we all know denver didn't build around high draft picks in the runningback and o-line positions...but is that because they've been a solid team since the time of elway in the 80's...the denver franchise isn't used to having a top 10 pick...duh...unless they trade up they wouldn't be picking high in the draft...and we all know how often teams trade up in round 1...not often...denver's picks are the people who fell to them in picks 20-32...so stop putting so much into well denver didn't do this or denver didn't do it that way...look at what the team has been for the past 20 some odd years

Scooter · Mar 2, 2006

it seems to me that you're argueing to build a madden team (or have a man-crush on one of the big 3 and are trying to find every outlet possible to downgrade the rest of the field). "i see no reason to blow a top 10 pick on a lineman". your first example is the steelers, who invested 3 first round picks, a second, and a third to build their line ... what a waste. answer me this about the steelers, would being 1st pick or 32nd have changed the way they drafted? i'll tell you that the answer is no. they knew what they needed, they drew up which players at those positions would work best in their system, and they went after those players. the steelers havent wasted a first round pick on a running back since bettis. they wasted a first rounder on a qb two years ago and behind that line full of first rounders he won 16 games his first season & won a superbowl in his second season. the broncos havent wasted a first round pick on a qb or a rb in almost 20 years.

next you nit pick recent draftees "chris spencer - he was a BACKUP all year ... what a waste". did you note that he's sitting behind robbie tobeck and is expected to replace him as soon as next season? seems like impeccable drafting to me. the only note you have on george foster is that he was injured his rookie season. why didnt you mention that he's started every game since (and his team's been to the playoff every year)? you're luke warm to levi jones, who's looked really good and has started all but 3 games since entering the league.

the patriots went D-line ... seymore, warren, wilfork. that's not our biggest hole (although it's arguable the second biggest with the switch to 4-3). the broncos draft defense and build more through free agency than probably any other team, and again are a bad example.

outofhnd · Mar 2, 2006

Umm the Steelers never drafted Bettis I dunno where you are going with that.

Considering we just extended Carr's Contract 3 more years tells me that we are looking at lineman, Offensive and Defensive this year.. The flashy WR pick is just like the draft Troy WIlliamson craze from last year. With the #1 overall pick its impossible to speculate..

As long as we dont take a Punter or long snapper with our pick I trust our teams judgment.

HoustonFrog · Mar 2, 2006

keyfro said:
well we all know denver didn't build around high draft picks in the runningback and o-line positions...but is that because they've been a solid team since the time of elway in the 80's...the denver franchise isn't used to having a top 10 pick...duh...unless they trade up they wouldn't be picking high in the draft...and we all know how often teams trade up in round 1...not often...denver's picks are the people who fell to them in picks 20-32...so stop putting so much into well denver didn't do this or denver didn't do it that way...look at what the team has been for the past 20 some odd years

OK, take Pittsburgh who did draft O-lineman in the 1st round yet they were guys who were the bottom of the 1st round..right where our 1st pick of 2nd round is. People fail to realize that we have more than one pick and with the right maneuvering we can have a skill player we need..Bush/VY or trade down for Williams or Hawk and get the lineman and other holes..and FA. Our D was worse than our O and we just hired a O guy to help out. If you wanted my pick besides Bush ..I'd move down and take Mario Williams. He had a better combine than Peppers and would get us the D help we need. Look at what Pitt did with a great D. It should not even be a fight. You can get the best of both worlds in this draft with the skill guys be top of the line and the O-line being deep with us having 4 picks in the Top 66.

outofhnd · Mar 2, 2006

Same can be said for pass rushing DEs as for OL You can find someone later or in FA. Looking back at the draft some of the better pass rushers were actually from the top of round 2.

99- Mike Rucker
00- Darren Howard
01- Kyle Vanden Bosch
03- Chris Kelsay (a stretch but he looked unstoppable against us)

Jared Allen was picked in round 4 by the chiefs in 2004

Just kinda interesting all those guys fell around there.

YoungTexanFan · Mar 2, 2006

outofhnd said:
Same can be said for pass rushing DEs as for OL You can find someone later or in FA. Looking back at the draft some of the better pass rushers were actually from the top of round 2.

99- Mike Rucker
00- Darren Howard
01- Kyle Vanden Bosch
03- Chris Kelsay (a stretch but he looked unstoppable against us)

Jared Allen was picked in round 4 by the chiefs in 2004

Just kinda interesting all those guys fell around there.

Add this years: Ray Edwards. Stud in the third or fourth.

Jerry · Mar 2, 2006

As was often the case for NE and PIT, if you don't have a top 10 pick, you can't spend it on an offensive lineman. Additionally, if there isn't a legit top 10 tackle but perhaps only a first-round grade tackle at your early pick, then you don't waste the value there. But if you have a top 10 pick and a need for a tackle, and there is a legit top 10 tackle, then obviously you take the tackle (or guard).

outofhnd · Mar 2, 2006

Absolutely Jerry. Especially when projections are so high for him, unlike Alex Barron where there was a question about his effort and attitude.

thunderkyss · Mar 2, 2006

Spoda said:
wait a minute...wait a minute..lemme re-read that.....hmm you were disappointed? wow you are very harsh because he was considered to be THE shining star of the combine...at least from what i heard...i'm not saying take brick....i don't care what we do with the pick unless we take vince...that's the only mistake i think we could make...IMO....but i want to know how he was disappointing...just his weight?

Let me go over that again....... I was under the impression that everyone wanted D'Brick, because he plays like a big man with the agility of a smaller man. I thought so many guys here was impressed with him, because of that, that Kubiak is now our coach, that our line was supposed to be patterned after Denver's, and that Kubiak was going to tweak it to get it there.
I'm also hearing soooooo much about him, the guys at the combine were oooohing and awwwing over him, and I guess I was just expecting a little more. he didn't look too impressive to me...

Trap_Star · Mar 2, 2006

thunderkyss said:
Let me go over that again....... I was under the impression that everyone wanted D'Brick, because he plays like a big man with the agility of a smaller man. I thought so many guys here was impressed with him, because of that, that Kubiak is now our coach, that our line was supposed to be patterned after Denver's, and that Kubiak was going to tweak it to get it there.
I'm also hearing soooooo much about him, the guys at the combine were oooohing and awwwing over him, and I guess I was just expecting a little more. he didn't look too impressive to me...

He did'nt work out at the combine, he's waiting for the virginia pro-day. Did you not like his performence at the senior bowl??

YoungTexanFan · Mar 2, 2006

thunderkyss said:
Let me go over that again....... I was under the impression that everyone wanted D'Brick, because he plays like a big man with the agility of a smaller man. I thought so many guys here was impressed with him, because of that, that Kubiak is now our coach, that our line was supposed to be patterned after Denver's, and that Kubiak was going to tweak it to get it there.
I'm also hearing soooooo much about him, the guys at the combine were oooohing and awwwing over him, and I guess I was just expecting a little more. he didn't look too impressive to me...

Thats because you didn't watch any of his games or his week long domination at the senior bolw.
Fergueson also bulked up quite a bit just for the combine to "shut up" his critics. He will be around 295-305 for his pro-day. He also fits Kubiaks new system better than most everyone else at OT AND is the best pass blocker in the draft.

YoungTexanFan · Mar 2, 2006

H-Texan7_5 said:
He did'nt work out at the combine, he's waiting for the virginia pro-day. Did you not like his performence at the senior bowl??

Didn't see that post, you beat me too it.

thunderkyss · Mar 2, 2006

YoungTexanFan said:
Thats because you didn't watch any of his games or his week long domination at the senior bolw.
Fergueson also bulked up quite a bit just for the combine to "shut up" his critics. He will be around 295-305 for his pro-day. He also fits Kubiaks new system better than most everyone else at OT AND is the best pass blocker in the draft.

No I didn't watch the Senior Bowl, had to work...... I did see one of the workouts, at the senior bowl, and I don't know, I wasn't too impressed. So your saying he beefed up......... 315lbs right, to quite his critics, but will be back down to about 300lbs for VTs... pro day?? And you're saying that he fits Kubiak's system at 300lbs?? That's what I was thinking.......... I guess we'll have to wait and see.....

I'm not professing to know too much about OLinemen. What makes some good, what makes others not so good. I think OLine, is one of the harder positions to play, And I believe finding an OLine starter in the draft is rare. I do know Denver's system is different from most, in that they like smaller more agile OLinemen. Big 'Ol 315 pounds, and rising, had me worried...

YoungTexanFan · Mar 2, 2006

thunderkyss said:
No I didn't watch the Senior Bowl, had to work...... I did see one of the workouts, at the senior bowl, and I don't know, I wasn't too impressed. So your saying he beefed up......... 315lbs right, to quite his critics, but will be back down to about 300lbs for VTs... pro day?? And you're saying that he fits Kubiak's system at 300lbs?? That's what I was thinking.......... I guess we'll have to wait and see.....

I'm not professing to know too much about OLinemen. What makes some good, what makes others not so good. I think OLine, is one of the harder positions to play, And I believe finding an OLine starter in the draft is rare. I do know Denver's system is different from most, in that they like smaller more agile OLinemen. Big 'Ol 315 pounds, and rising, had me worried...

He's not rising any more. His frame will not let him hold it. He also has a problem every year with keeping his weight on. He goes through those ensure drinks like none other. Kubiak's system calls for linemen with quick feet and good lateral movement. A Pro-bowl LT calls for Quick feet, long arms, and the ability to keep his hands inside the defenders body. D'brick has everything needed to fit kubiak's system. He is the ideal LT for Kubiak and for the Texans, seeing as he is the best pass blocker in quite a while...better than gallery was when he came out.

HoustonFrog · Mar 2, 2006

Again, I just don't see it when they have made their bread and butter on lower round guys. I may have been with you all on some of this until I heard our new O-coordinator talk and he continuously talks of "smaller", "quicker" and "love of ball." Makes me think that they can already find their guys late and teach them. They had a rookie FA on the line this year. We will have 4 picks or more in the Top 3 rounds and I think the chance of taking an O-lineman in the Top 5 is slim to none. If we had the playmakers I'd say yes but we don't and hopefully this is the last time we have the top pick. Our two proven playmakers/gamebreakers are a WR and a DB.

Scooter · Mar 3, 2006

i dont understand the arguement. if the biggest hole on the team is runningback, drafting the best runningback makes perfect sense. if the biggest hole on your team is offensive line, and an ideal candidate for the system is going in the top 5 ... you draft a runningback? you dont have a starting DE, and an ideal player for the system is going in the top 7 ... you draft a runningback?

but, we need a playmaker. a runningback that can jump from a great blocking college team to a mediocre run blocking NFL team and be the best ever. we need a qb who's so big and strong and fast that dwight freeney isnt even going to bother putting on his pads.

sure, we could land a starter in the later rounds, but why would you want to unless you're filling another hole or have a man-crush on someone who isnt a need. i hope noone's going to argue that the talent level increases in later rounds just because a team's had success drafting.

(thanks outofhnd, guess it's hard to imagine bettis in a rams uniform)

Tha_Tinman · Mar 3, 2006

Scooter said:
it seems to me that you're argueing to build a madden team (or have a man-crush on one of the big 3 and are trying to find every outlet possible to downgrade the rest of the field). "i see no reason to blow a top 10 pick on a lineman". your first example is the steelers, who invested 3 first round picks, a second, and a third to build their line ... what a waste. answer me this about the steelers, would being 1st pick or 32nd have changed the way they drafted? i'll tell you that the answer is no. they knew what they needed, they drew up which players at those positions would work best in their system, and they went after those players. the steelers havent wasted a first round pick on a running back since bettis. they wasted a first rounder on a qb two years ago and behind that line full of first rounders he won 16 games his first season & won a superbowl in his second season. the broncos havent wasted a first round pick on a qb or a rb in almost 20 years.

next you nit pick recent draftees "chris spencer - he was a BACKUP all year ... what a waste". did you note that he's sitting behind robbie tobeck and is expected to replace him as soon as next season? seems like impeccable drafting to me. the only note you have on george foster is that he was injured his rookie season. why didnt you mention that he's started every game since (and his team's been to the playoff every year)? you're luke warm to levi jones, who's looked really good and has started all but 3 games since entering the league.

the patriots went D-line ... seymore, warren, wilfork. that's not our biggest hole (although it's arguable the second biggest with the switch to 4-3). the broncos draft defense and build more through free agency than probably any other team, and again are a bad example.

Surely you jest ...If Pittsburgh had higher picks there is NO QUESTION they ...like any team ...would select THE BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE ...Now, there is only 2 years in question. Because one of those 1st round picks (HARTINGS) was drafted by Detroit.

1998 ...the year of Peyton Manning, Charles Woodson (HEISMAN), Fred Taylor, & Randy Moss (Among other notables) ...Ofcourse, they would have taken one of those guys over Alan Faneca!

2002 ...The year of Julius Peppers, Roy Williams, Dwight Freeney, Jeremy Shockey, Quentin Jammer, and DARE I FORGET THE UNCOMPARABLE DAVID "THE TURF FEELS SEXY ON MY BACK" CARR!

Do tha math dude!

And your second point there ...Why didn't I talk about George Foster's recovery? BECAUSE IT DIDN'T HELP MY ARGUMENT ...DUH!

Scooter · Mar 3, 2006

in 98 two offensive linemen were taken in the top 11. in 2002 three offensive linemen were taken in the top 10. are you so sure about that arguement? or are you drafting by hindsight?

Tha_Tinman · Mar 3, 2006

killeentexan said:
Yeah, I agree....who would want Orlando Pace, Jonathen Ogden, Tony Boselli, Willie Roaf, Lincoln Kennedy, Walter Jones, Willie Anderson or Chris Samuels on our team? That's just to name a few of the tackles taken in the top ten over the past 10 years or so. Yes, a good tackle can be found in the mid to late 1st round, but a franchise caliber LT is almost always taken in the top 10. I want someone who will anchor our line for the next 10 years, protecting our QBs blind side.

All of those guys were taken prior to the 2002 draft. I only addressed the years that the Houston Texans were around. IMO the game was different then. The game of football is played in cycles ...some years certain styles of offense are successful ...some years they arent. Kinda like the old Run & Shoot or the Pro Set. Your draft selections have to represent that. In THESE days and times ...you just don't need a Top Ten OL ...there are much better uses for the pick. ESPECIALLY THIS YEAR. THIS HAS GOT TO BE THE BEST DRAFT BOARD IN YEARS! This is simply not the time to blow a draft!

Maddict5 · Mar 3, 2006

HoustonFrog said:
I have said it a million times. Just my opinion 1) Kubiak's system doesn't call for a guy to be a Top 5 lineman. The O-coordinator on 610 said they took smaller, scrappier guys who loved to play and fit them in the system. They didn't take a guy higher than 20 in the first round and everyone else was FA or 4th round and below. 2) Pitt has a top line and all of their 1st rounders are around the 30th pick. Same with NE, who only has the one 1st rounder and lower guys. This bodes well for our first pick of the second round. 3) Why not get a skill guy on O or D and still be able to get a top of the line O-lineman in a deep O-lineman draft?We have 3 more picks in the Top 66.

The Broncos starting O-line this year was a 1st rounder(20th pick), 2 4th rounders, a 7th rounder and a rookie FA. Our new O-coordinator said that in Denver they found scrappy, smaller guys who loved to play the game. Those are guys you take with our 2 and 3 picks, not Top 5. Robert Gallery hasn't done a ton for the Raiders and there are other "can't miss" guys like Mandarich. O-lineman aren't guaranteed like any other position. Here is another team that was mentioned..the Patriots. Their line in 2005 was an undrafted FA (Neal), A 7th rounder at one tackle that was practice squad (Gorin), A 5th rounder that was let go by TB and put on NE practice squad (Hochstein), a 1st rounder (#32)(Mankins) and a 3rd rounder (Kaczur). When they had injuries Ashworth played alot and he was an undrafted FA of SF that was signed to the Patriots practice squad and moved up. All in all you can build a line with guys that aren't Top 5 picks and who fit the blocking scheme. It is the coaching. Hopefully we have corrected that.

bam!!

there you go punching yourself in the face- ryan leaf, charles rogers, jonathan sullivan, quentin jammer, andre carter, david terrell are all recent top 10 picks at various positions that are busts. THERE ARE NO GARUNTEED PLAYERS IN THE DRAFT.
also about the pats-i know another team that doesnt draft o-linemen high- THE TEXANS and we suck- where players are drafted doesnt matter if they're no good. the pats got good later round o-line players yet that doesnt mean its the way to go. they also got a good late round qb if i remember right. doesnt mean every1 should be lookin to pick up 6th round qbs. man im confused already using the logic that ye are using
if you draft higher it gives you a better chance of having a better o-line. not a garuntee but a much better chance

Maddict5 · Mar 3, 2006

Tha_Tinman said:
All of those guys were taken prior to the 2002 draft. I only addressed the years that the Houston Texans were around. IMO the game was different then. The game of football is played in cycles ...some years certain styles of offense are successful ...some years they arent. Kinda like the old Run & Shoot or the Pro Set. Your draft selections have to represent that. In THESE days and times ...you just don't need a Top Ten OL ...there are much better uses for the pick. ESPECIALLY THIS YEAR. THIS HAS GOT TO BE THE BEST DRAFT BOARD IN YEARS! This is simply not the time to blow a draft!

that doesnt make much sense to me- quality lines ALWAYS give you a huge chance to win. the reason alot of linemen havent been drafted highly the last few years is that there hasnt been many franchise lts out there. lucky for us theres looks to be 1 out there this year

thunderkyss · Mar 3, 2006

Maddict5 said:
bam!! there you go punching yourself in the face- ryan leaf, charles rogers, jonathan sullivan, quentin jammer, andre carter, david terrell are all recent top 10 picks at various positions that are busts. THERE ARE NO GARUNTEED PLAYERS IN THE DRAFT.
also about the pats-i know another team that doesnt draft o-linemen high- THE TEXANS and we suck- where players are drafted doesnt matter if they're no good. the pats got good later round o-line players yet that doesnt mean its the way to go. they also got a good late round qb if i remember right. doesnt mean every1 should be lookin to pick up 6th round qbs. man im confused already using the logic that ye are using
if you draft higher it gives you a better chance of having a better o-line. not a garuntee but a much better chance

In your summation, would getting D'Brick fix our line, or help us in the right direction?? & What would you do with our second pick??

killeentexan · Mar 3, 2006

HoustonFrog said:
Again, I just don't see it when they have made their bread and butter on lower round guys. I may have been with you all on some of this until I heard our new O-coordinator talk and he continuously talks of "smaller", "quicker" and "love of ball." Makes me think that they can already find their guys late and teach them. They had a rookie FA on the line this year. We will have 4 picks or more in the Top 3 rounds and I think the chance of taking an O-lineman in the Top 5 is slim to none. If we had the playmakers I'd say yes but we don't and hopefully this is the last time we have the top pick. Our two proven playmakers/gamebreakers are a WR and a DB.

Denver also made their "bread and butter" selecting running backs in the lower rounds and not using a 1st round pick on one. Using your argument that it's the "system" that makes it work so we don't need to pick a tackle at #1 - that same logic works when you look at the RB position......any RB would flourish in this system, so why waste the #1 pick on Bush?

It all starts in the trenches - the OL and the DL, and ours both stink. We need to focus on improving our offensive and defensive line play. Instituting Denver's system may help our OL, however better players will improve the line without doubt - no matter what system is being used.

HoustonFrog · Mar 3, 2006

killeentexan said:
Denver also made their "bread and butter" selecting running backs in the lower rounds and not using a 1st round pick on one. Using your argument that it's the "system" that makes it work so we don't need to pick a tackle at #1 - that same logic works when you look at the RB position......any RB would flourish in this system, so why waste the #1 pick on Bush?

It all starts in the trenches - the OL and the DL, and ours both stink. We need to focus on improving our offensive and defensive line play. Instituting Denver's system may help our OL, however better players will improve the line without doubt - no matter what system is being used.

You are making an argument assuming I want Bush or Young. I'm just not sure why you D'Brick lovers are acting like this is our only pick because it is a huge need. You can still trade down and get Mario Williams who is scouted as a bigger stud than even Peppers. This comes after what Pitt did with their D. You still get extra picks and you can get your O-line with the players that fit the system.

Maddict 5 I'm not punching myself in the face because as I said above I'm not depending on a RB and QB. Also there is a difference between the Pats/Denver and the Steelers. They have a program that fits the guys in. Read my posts again. Denvers picked those guys because they fit the system and don't need to take an O-lineman that high. Hell they have taken DBs lately. The Pats took quality guys late because they were good and were coached right. We had a crappy staff and now have a staff that teaches a good system. Pitt took guys we can get in the Top 2nd round. It makes sense if you just stop and look at the how the good teams operate. We have a 2-14 team with no playmakers. We have a draft that is deep in top talent and O-line. So take a playmaker and then take your lineman. You can do both. People are just used to casserly screwing that up.

outofhnd · Mar 3, 2006

I like how when it comes to lineman its ok to have later round talent because its the system but the running backs its about the game breaking ability. Great top tier tackles can make your running back a playmaker.

Jamal Lewis - John Ogden
Marshall Faulk - Orlando Pace
Shaun Alexander - Walter Jones
Emmit Smith - Larry Allen
James Brooks - Anthony Munoz
Eddie George - Brad Hopkins

They have playmaking RB every Year... OT's that grade out as high as Dbrick come around like once every 3 years..

I say trade down take advantage of a top tier tackle and then fill needs with later picks.

TheOgre · Mar 4, 2006

outofhnd said:
Emmit Smith - Larry Allen

Hasn't Larry Allen been primarily a LG?

big homey · Mar 4, 2006

TheOgre said:
Hasn't Larry Allen been primarily a LG?

The point is that successful RB's can often be connected to top tier linemen, be they tackles, guards, or centers.

Is It Really Smart To Draft OL In 1st?

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