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Injury Thread

CloakNNNdagger said:
People are still debating whether to start Savage vs Osweiler against the Raiders. However, the decision has probably already been sealed. With this next game played in a short week, indeed it is possible for Savage to pass the Protocol by game time. However, I don't see any reasonable way that, on his way through the Protocol he will be able to practice enough with the team to be prepared to step in at the last minute and run the team on Saturday. A team's established seasoned vet could possibly do it, but not a QB with only 2 starts under his belt.
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This concussion protocol process seems to lack transparency, but maybe it's just that every situation is so different it's impossible to conduct it a clear and systematic way ?
All in the same game, really the first half of the game Savage is cleared but then the clearance is lifted and his previous status is reinstated so that he's prohibited from playing any more at all that day.
 
IDEXAN said:
This concussion protocol process seems to lack transparency, but maybe it's just that every situation is so different it's impossible to conduct it a clear and systematic way ?
All in the same game, really the first half of the game Savage is cleared but then the clearance is lifted and his previous status is reinstated so that he's prohibited from playing any more at all that day.
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Then again..maybe TS just decided "I don't want it, give the ball to Leroy."

:coffee:
 
IDEXAN said:
This concussion protocol process seems to lack transparency, but maybe it's just that every situation is so different it's impossible to conduct it a clear and systematic way ?
All in the same game, really the first half of the game Savage is cleared but then the clearance is lifted and his previous status is reinstated so that he's prohibited from playing any more at all that day.
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Having dealth with many trauma patients, I can tell you that there is no immediate acid fast clinical test that will tell a doctor positively whether a patient has sustained a concussion or not in any case where that patient is not overtly punch drunk and disoriented.................certainly not in an environment of the sidelines or the training room where the physicians are given 5-15 minutes to evaluate the player. The so-called "highly accurate/predictive" IMPACT testing used by the NFL is still considered as a screening test for concussions (not a definitive test) and is to open to variation of interpretation and manipulation. Many things that I have posted have not made sense to me as regards the NFL Concussion Protocol, the implementation and its implications. For example, how does Fiedorowicz get concussed on Sunday and get cleared by Wednesday while there are 5 stages of the protocol which must each be separated by 24 hours in order to pass to the next stage?


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NFL hopes you trust its inadequate concussion test
  • SAM MELLINGER The Kansas City Star
  • Nov 1, 2016

The strangest part is not that Alex Smith was twice knocked wobbly, had a gashed ear and a swelling of clotted blood behind the ear and still somehow managed to pass the NFL’s concussion testing.

The strangest part is not that the Chiefs announced his concussion diagnosis during the game … then Coach Andy Reid said there was no concussion after the game … then he was corrected by a spokesman that there was a concussion … and then the team trainer spoke directly to the media on Monday and said there was no concussion.

And the strangest part is not that Smith’s head bounced off the turf hard, twice, each time leaving him obviously dazed, glassy-eyed and needing help to his feet — but was still apparently passed through the NFL’s concussion testing.

No. None of that is the strangest part.

The strangest part is that any of us see that brief in-game testing as anything other than guesswork about potentially damaged brains. The NFL, in its own protocol, says that athletes with concussions can pass the tests partly because, by definition, the in-game testing is brief.

To put it as plainly as possible: Doctors using this test to determine whether a man has a concussion cannot know whether that man has a concussion.

But off he goes anyway, back into the violent chaos of an NFL game, his potentially damaged brain made more vulnerable to what has been scientifically shown to be exponentially worse damage.

So, when doctors make what amount to educated guesses here, how confident can they be?

“I think it’s a great question,” Chiefs head athletic trainer Rick Burkholder said. “I can’t shed light on that.”

This is the worst part. This is not a criticism of Burkholder or the Chiefs or the so-called independent neurologists who administer the in-game tests. They are doing their best ... and doing their job.

This is a direct criticism of the NFL, which has been shamefully slow to address head injuries and is trying its best to promote a fundamentally inadequate protocol as some sort of reliable diagnosis of potential damage to human brains.

It is medical theater, effective only in providing a facade of safety and giving coaches and players something to put trust in while the show goes on.

When a player is so obviously dazed and loses balance, what’s wrong with holding him out for the rest of a football game so medical experts can do a more serious and thorough examination?

Look, Smith, Spencer Ware and every other player who goes through the testing is well aware of the potential long-term damage that football can cause. There can be no more we-didn’t-know claims from players.

But the problems here stretch beyond even the frightening reality that the NFL’s make-believe protocol gives the impression to lower levels that concussions can be diagnosed on the sideline between series.

Because it’s not just that the system is attempting to solve a problem that everyone involved admits cannot be solved. It’s that the system is acting as a crutch in an environment where the incentive is for the player to be cleared.

Nobody knows this better than Smith. He’s only here in Kansas City, after all, because he lost his job in San Francisco after a concussion in 2012.

The problem — and everyone in the league office knows this — is that the rules are different for quarterbacks and nonstars. Maybe Smith can be more honest, because he knows that if it means fewer opportunities in the league, he has already made tens of millions of dollars and teams are always looking for quarterbacks.

But what about when that decision is presented to a lineman or a backup or a special-teams gunner?

This is why players have been known to tank their baseline tests before the season, to give themselves a lower bar to clear if and when they go through the in-game protocol. Tamba Hali, just to use one example, said he’s never taken the in-game test because “then they get a gauge on you.”

Which is only part of why the NFL knows its testing and protocol sometimes clears concussions in players who actually have concussions.

We don’t know if that happened with Smith either time he took the test on Sunday. The doctors don’t know either.

And that’s the most important part of this whole confusing, frustrating and potentially dangerous situation.
 
Apparently, Kevin Johnson recently underwent foot surgery. Up until then, the medical staff was putting him through a rehab program to encourage the fracture to heal conservatively. It didn't heal and the Jones fracture of the same foot that he initially sustained the Jones fracture during his rookie season and subsequently underwent surgery for, also required surgery. The delay in surgery is a little curious, as most Jones re-fractures do not heal primarily and, and especially in an elite athlete, require additional surgery (replacement of the repair screw with a larger screw). Unless he again fractures the foot, he would be expected to be ready for the offseason workouts.
 
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CloakNNNdagger said:
Apparently, Kevin Johnson recently underwent foot surgery. Up until then, the medical staff was putting him through a rehab program to encourage the fracture to heal conservatively. It didn't heal and the Jones fracture of the same foot that he initially sustained the Jones fracture during his rookie season and subsequently underwent surgery for, also required surgery. The delay in surgery is a little curious, as most Jones re-fractures do not heal primarily and, and especially in an elite athlete, require additional surgery (replacement of the repair screw with a larger screw). Unless he again fractures the foot, he would be expected to be ready for the offseason workouts.
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This sounds very similar to what Sammy Watkins is going through right? Should we be worried about his long term career prospects with this type of injury?
 
TheRealJoker said:
This sounds very similar to what Sammy Watkins is going through right? Should we be worried about his long term career prospects with this type of injury?
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Same thing that Watkins is going through, and Julian Edelman, Julio Jones, and Dez Bryant also went through.

Once fully and securely healed, although not a guarantee, he would not be expected to have long-term career-effecting implications. The primary problem with most of the aforementioned re-fractures are because they occur in-season or offseason/preseason where the player tries to return to play too soon..........typically 6-8 weeks post surgery. Full healing of a Jones fracture, though, occurs only after ~12+ weeks. That's why you see so many re-fractures (or nonunions of fracture segments) in these elite athletes.
 

[As I've previously posted, symptoms of a concussion can occur immediately, a few minutes, a few hours or a few days following the trauma. On the other hand, as in my post of the article above, I also can't personally be sure that in any particular NFL player case, the final determination has not been "manipulated."]


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Doctor says Texans followed concussion protocol with Tom Savage

Published 4:51 pm, Tuesday, January 3, 2017


Although there's been some confusion about how the NFL concussion protocol was handled with quarterback Tom Savage, a former NFL team doctor dispelled the notion that there was any negligence with the injured Texans quarterback.

Savage suffered a concussion during a successful quarterback sneak Sunday against the Tennessee Titans. He was sent to the locker room to be examined by an independent neurologist and was initially cleared. Savage went back into the game to kneel down for one play to end the first half.


Texans coach Bill O'Brien was going to have Savage start the second half, but that plan was shelved when Savage experienced more symptoms and was ruled out for the remainder of the game.

"I don't think Bill O'Brien and the Texans did anything wrong or that anyone tried to manipulate anything as far as the protocol," said former San Diego Chargers team doctor David Chao, who doesn't treat Savage. "The reality is what likely happened is he got checked, cleared and it's not unusual for the symptoms to come up later. My favorite quote on this is 'Concussions are like snowflakes, no two are the same.'

"You can take one big hit and have immediate symptoms or take another hit and not have symptoms for a day or two. It comes at different times. Since Tom Savage went to the locker room, in theory, he got a full check, not just a screening. So, the doctors and the medical staff did more than the right thing because they did a full evaluation and rechecked him. It sounds like they were fairly thorough. I don't see anything wrong here."

O'Brien said he doesn't regret Savage executing a quarterback sneak in a game that had no significance as far as the playoffs.

"It was a play where we felt like that was the best play to get us the first down," O'Brien said. "It's football. Injuries occur. No, I'm not regretful of that play-call at all. I just feel bad for Tom that it happened, but I think in the end you're out there to play football. It's a contact sport, injuries happen. I feel terrible about it, but I'm not regretful about it."
 
OB said in his presser today that Simon is a gametime decision. I have not seen an injury report released like usual that details the level of participation players have had in practice.
 
John Simon ruled out.

According to today's injury report their LT Donald Penn did not participate in today's practice. I didn't see the play he got hurt on in the Denver game but i'd imagine if he doesn't practice today he doesn't play Saturday.
 
TheRealJoker said:
John Simon ruled out.

According to today's injury report their LT Donald Penn did not participate in today's practice. I didn't see the play he got hurt on in the Denver game but i'd imagine if he doesn't practice today he doesn't play Saturday.
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Kyke Peko knocked Penn back and Penn's knee folded back much like how Derek Newton sustained his bilateral patellar tendon ruptures.
 
Demps left the Raiders game with a re-injury of his left hamstring. I wrote about my concerning that this would occur with little rest and specifically because last year he was hobbled throughout and missed several games for a tear of the same hamstring. I would not hold my breath for his availability for the pats game.
 
Texans safety Quintin Demps(hamstring) practiced in the portion of practice open to the media, while linebacker John Simon (chest) sat out. Coach Bill O'Brien said Demps is day-to-day.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Jalen Strong underwent ankle surgery in December after he was placed on IR. He is going through rehab and is expected to be ready for OTAs.
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Do we have any recent news on the progress on the rehab of 2016 IR'ed 2nd round pick center Nick Martin ?
 
IDEXAN said:
Do we have any recent news on the progress on the rehab of 2016 IR'ed 2nd round pick center Nick Martin ?
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There has been no interim reports. He had surgery for a severe unstable high ankle sprain the very end of August. At ~3 1/2 months, he would probably have begun to run. To actually go to full recovery, he would be expected to require closer to 6 months.

ankle_syndesmosis_surgery01.thumbnail.jpg
 
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Heath left the game yesterday with a right knee injury. Of course the Texans don't feel it will require surgery. But going into the offseason, they will try to confirm this with an MRI tomorrow. He has dealt with right ankle and right non characterized "leg" (which was apparently knee related) injuries in his senior college year.
 
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KJo is presently on crutches, sporting a walking boot after his recent surgery. As I've posted before, I find it very curious that in the case of an elite athlete, a re-fracture of a Jones fracture would not empirically be treated with immediate surgery.........replacement with a larger screw plus or minus bone graft re-inforcement of the the fracture site. His re-fracture was mid Oct.........a long wasted period of time attempting a long shot at successful conservative rehab.

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Texans' Kevin Johnson expects full recovery from foot surgery

Published 10:43 am, Monday, January 16, 2017


As the Texans' players cleaned out their lockers Monday following an AFC divisional-round playoff loss to the New England Patriots, Johnson is recuperating from his second Jones fracture and is upbeat about his future after undergoing the same procedure following his rookie season a year ago. Johnson expects to be ready in time for the Texans' offseason training program and practices.

"No question about it," Johnson said. "I'm looking to be back healthy and get better, bigger, faster and stronger and just be the best player I can be. I'm looking forward to it. I'm excited about it."

Johnson broke the bone in his foot in October against the Indianapolis Colts. Initially, the thought was to let it heal naturally, but then the decision was reversed to address it surgically.

"It's a Jones re-fracture and now I'm in the position where I got it fixed up and now I'll be back," Johnson said. "It's just a bad-luck thing. I'll bounce back from it. I learned a lot from it."

Johnson's loss represented a major blow to the Texans' top-ranked defense, but they carried on well without him due to the presence of cornerbacks A.J. Bouye, Johnathan Joseph and Kareem Jackson. In two NFL seasons, Johnson has recorded 73 tackles, 12 passes defended, one interception and one fumble recovery.

Drafted in the first round last year out of Wake Forest, Johnson had 10 tackles in his final game of the season as he shut down Colts wide receiver Phillip Dorsett. Johnson's return is a huge factor for a Texans defense that could potentially lose Bouye in free agency to a lucrative contract offer.

"I was doing some good things and it's something to build on," Johnson said. "How I want to come back is something to look forward to."
 
Is there anything wrong with CjF? I noticed more one TE sets with Griffin yesterday.
 
Texans' Bill O'Brien pleased with J.J. Watt's progress
1:11 PM CT
  • Sarah BarshopESPN Staff Writer
HOUSTON -- Houston Texans coach Bill O’Brien said after seeing the work defensive end J.J. Watt has put in while recovering from back surgery that he’s “sure that he is ahead of schedule.”

O’Brien said he does not have a timetable for Watt’s progress during the offseason.

“I can tell you he’s doing well,” O’Brien said. “He’s in there working very hard to get better. He’s been in there every day. You can see him out on the field running; you can see him doing different things in the weight room.

“So, to no one’s surprise, I’m sure that he is ahead of schedule.”

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"Ahead of schedule"........a phrase that makes me cringe
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Texans' Bill O'Brien pleased with J.J. Watt's progress
1:11 PM CT

HOUSTON -- Houston Texans coach Bill O’Brien said after seeing the work defensive end J.J. Watt has put in while recovering from back surgery that he’s “sure that he is ahead of schedule.”

O’Brien said he does not have a timetable for Watt’s progress during the offseason.

“I can tell you he’s doing well,” O’Brien said. “He’s in there working very hard to get better. He’s been in there every day. You can see him out on the field running; you can see him doing different things in the weight room.

“So, to no one’s surprise, I’m sure that he is ahead of schedule.”

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"Ahead of schedule"........a phrase that makes me cringe
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Heath has been reported to not require surgery. His knee injury is most likely a medial meniscus tear, which can be treated conservatively as long as the symptoms do not persist and the knee remains stable.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Heath has been reported to not require surgery. His knee injury is most likely a medial meniscus tear, which can be treated conservatively as long as the symptoms do not persist and the knee remains stable.
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that's good news. I have great hopes for Heath in 2018. Hopefully Still also.
 
Chris Clark has undergone a shoulder surgery..........described as a "cleanup." Funny that he was never listed on an Injury Report for a shoulder, yet he goes straight to surgery following the completion of the season. He is said to have a "good medical outlook."


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Touchback rule had little to no impact on injuries on kickoffs
January 26, 2017

The NFL changed the rule on touchbacks last year in the hopes that there would be fewer injuries on kickoffs. The first year of data is in, and not much changed.

According to data released by the league today, concussions on kickoffs declined slightly, from 20 in 2015 to 17 in 2016. But hamstring injuries on kickoffs increased from 11 to 13, ACL tears increased from one to four, and MCL tears increased from three to five.

On a conference call examining injury rates in the league, NFL officials said the data will be analyzed in more detail and presented to the Competition Committee, but they acknowledged that it looks more like “a natural fluctuation” than any change that could be attributed to the new touchback rule.

Patriots coach Bill Belichick pointed out during the season that concussions happen even on touchbacks, as players still block because they don’t know whether their returner is taking the ball out of the end zone or not. So even if touchbacks increased significantly, that wouldn’t necessarily mean injuries on kickoffs would decrease significantly.

But touchbacks only increased by about 2 percent in 2016. There was a lot of talk about that rule, but in the end it made very little difference.
 
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ung14 said:
So on a scale of 1-10 how worried should we be? Minor they say...but you never know.

James Palmer

✔@JamesPalmerTV
The arthroscopic surgery #Texans Jadeveon Clowney had on his left knee was minor. I’m told he’s fine. Great yr after switch to DE from OLB 12:23 PM - 26 Jan 2017
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As I questioned before when it was first announced that he would be used often as a DE this year. Coming out of a DE 3-point stance puts much more stress on the knees than coming out of 2-point stance. Although this surgery was on the opposite knee from the microfracture side, the stress is undoubtedly affecting both joints. Since it is reported that he is not expected to miss any of the offseason, this "minor" surgery is likely a meniscus excision or articular cartilage/fibrous tissue "cleanup"......these surgeries are a short term solution and are not considered an articular cartilage repair procedure, but rather a temporizing "palliative" treatment to reduce pain, mechanical restriction and inflammation. These are the same type of injuries that set up a player for the beginning of the road to microfracture surgery. Hopefully, the area of articular cartilage involvement is very limited and/or involving only the medial meniscus, not the lateral meniscus again. Now it is being reported that he is missing the ProBowl because of this injury/surgery.....not as previously reported because of his elbow injury.
 
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Would you mind giving your opinion on Kareem? I read that he had a hamstring injury among others. He wasn't often listed on your injury reports, but I found his play quite abnormal for chunks of the season. I especially watched him against the Pats, he was hobbled and diving instead of turning ... what don't we know? Or is he just regressing in your opinion?
 
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