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Derek Stingley vs. Sauce Gardner

beerlover said:
thats fair statement, except for not trusting speed reason for being handsy. 6’3” plus is more about physics, stopping on a dime and changing directions, no matter how good the feet or loose the hips there is a built in delay. So he does try to minimize that separation in space by grabbing too much at times. Learning to trust his make-up speed (looks elite, catches nearly everybody with that length) and reading the receiver’s body language gets him close enough to position for break-up, often times w/o turning to look for ball. Usually that (turning to look for ball) typically bails out 99% of corners, it’s his length that bails Gardner out.

From here not sure how much hype affects officiating? Certainly possible, he gets calls because of his reputation, the great ones, regardless of position get those calls or no calls. Dion Sanders and Darrell Revis are two I remember getting favorable treatment.
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Deion and Revis had that short area quickness and technique...Deion in particular would bait qbs by giving them that college look of "open" by laying off 2-3 yards. The minute the ball was in the air he could close so damn quick & intercept, it would look like the qb was throwing to him instead of the WR. Revis would just smother guys to death with his flawless technique.

Agree about the reach advantage that bails him out & the calls great ones get..but they're usually more established guys at that point. Still disagree about the speed thing tho.. regardless of how long he is, still gotta have that base level of speed and quickness. height can be a limiting factor for some guys...i just don't think that's the case here. For 1, We see guys with his size and speed & bigger in the NFL all the time stopping on dimes and changing directions quickly with no delays..They're called WR's...Andre Johnson, Cooper Kupp.......Jordy Nelson all say hi.. There's just a difference between being fast and being quick. that's why so much emphasis is put on CB's to at least be able to clock a 4.4 at the combines; that implies a minimal level of quickness. So while Sauce's top speed can reach 4.47 as evidenced by his 2nd run at the combine (1st was 4.52) it was a struggle for him to get...which tells me he's closer to a 4.5 guy & that he doesn't really have the short area quicks to begin with that's so coveted in the NFL for cbs.....so in that regard it ain't his height. i'm sure he knows that that long stride struggle 4.4 speed can only be deployed........... if he can get his hands on guys to slow them up a bit........... & the pass rush he has aids him moreso than alot of other cbs who are quicker & can close.....That's why i don't think he'd be playing as well here if we'd drafted him (0 pass rush).

Like i said to me his instincts are the best thing about his game & those types of guys are best utilized at safety..As good as he's playing at cb..there's a bit of smoke and mirrors to it. At safety i think he'd probably be playing better..where he could let his instincts take over and there's less emphasis on his speed and quickness &......potential holding...Hell that's basically the thing that goy Kye Hamilton drafted top 15 despite a trash 40 lol....& he's playing damn well now.
 
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Mr teX said:
Deion and Revis had that short area quickness and technique...Deion in particular would bait qbs by giving them that college look of "open" by laying off 2-3 yards. The minute the ball was in the air he could close so damn quick & intercept, it would look like the qb was throwing to him instead of the WR. Revis would just smother guys to death with his flawless technique.

Agree about the reach advantage that bails him out & the calls great ones get..but they're usually more established guys at that point. Still disagree about the speed thing tho.. regardless of how long he is, still gotta have that base level of speed and quickness. height can be a limiting factor for some guys...i just don't think that's the case here. For 1, We see guys with his size and speed & bigger in the NFL all the time stopping on dimes and changing directions quickly with no delays..They're called WR's...Andre Johnson, Cooper Kupp.......Jordy Nelson all say hi.. There's just a difference between being fast and being quick. that's why so much emphasis is put on CB's to at least be able to clock a 4.4 at the combines; that implies a minimal level of quickness. So while Sauce's top speed can reach 4.47 as evidenced by his 2nd run at the combine (1st was 4.52) it was a struggle for him to get...which tells me he's closer to a 4.5 guy & that he doesn't really have the short area quicks to begin with that's so coveted in the NFL for cbs.....so in that regard it ain't his height. i'm sure he knows that that long stride struggle 4.4 speed can only be deployed........... if he can get his hands on guys to slow them up a bit........... & the pass rush he has aids him moreso than alot of other cbs who are quicker & can close.....That's why i don't think he'd be playing as well here if we'd drafted him (0 pass rush).

Like i said to me his instincts are the best thing about his game & those types of guys are best utilized at safety..As good as he's playing at cb..there's a bit of smoke and mirrors to it. At safety i think he'd probably be playing better..where he could let his instincts take over and there's less emphasis on his speed and quickness &......potential holding...Hell that's basically the thing that goy Kye Hamilton drafted top 15 despite a trash 40 lol....& he's playing damn well now.
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Lot more folks here were talking up Hamilton as the 3rd overall pick before Gardner or Stingley, until his pro-day pedestrian 4.70/4.74 forty. https://jetsxfactor.com/2022/03/31/ny-jets-draft-prospects-testing-numbers/amp/

Both Hamilton and Stingley had medical red flags as well, which impeded their testing numbers, granted. Gardner was I’d call a clean prospect, no red flags. Is there a weakness with his stop & start time given his size, naturally yes, but his fluid hips, weight transfer to feet and length more than make up for that.
https://jetsxfactor.com/2022/05/02/sauce-gardner-analysis-great-improve/amp/

In the end, football players are all in their own developmental process that evolves over time. Sauce Gardner has the advantage because of the system and coaching assessment of his skill sets & how to maximize those assets. But sure doesn’t hurt to have elite traits to be used as more of a weapon. Jets need to figure out how to implement them when teams don’t throw his side of field, if that requires slipping into zone coverage or safety position so be it. He should not be constrained to CB position only.
 
TexansBull said:
I agree to an extent.

Texans have to make sure they get what they need and not be Garrapolo’ed like the Patriots did to us.

They are in that much need, which we both agree.

We can’t look at the draft picks and think we could have gotten someone at the same place.

This is the first real draft by Caserio. It will take some time to really get a feel for how he drafts and if he drafts well.
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Last draft was the 1st real draft and although Caserio went in a different direction than I would have, I thought he did a good job. He likes guys that are battle tested particularly from the SEC. I agree with this philosophy.
 
This will be the most difficult match-up for any CB, JJ (Justin Jefferson). I thought Herbert was best offensive rookie in 2020 class but since changed my mind. Jefferson is widely recognized as best WR in the NFL.

He should have Gardner for lunch. Just so polished, athletic with nose for the football. Be great watch this Sunday - Week 13 for the rookie.
 
texanhead08 said:
The Texans should run from players with a history of injury but they can't help themselves they just draft guys who were hurt in college and expect things to be different in a more physical NFL. It never turns out good and then they rinse and repeat and do it again.
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It’s just maddening, I’m so tired of it also. I’ll take a consistent solid over a occasional burst also.


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beerlover said:
This will be the most difficult match-up for any CB, JJ (Justin Jefferson). I thought Herbert was best offensive rookie in 2020 class but since changed my mind. Jefferson is widely recognized as best WR in the NFL.

He should have Gardner for lunch. Just so polished, athletic with nose for the football. Be great watch this Sunday - Week 13 for the rookie.
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Jets front 7 will get after Cousins and JJ likely wont be much of a factor b/c of it…
 
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texanhead08 said:
The Texans should run from players with a history of injury but they can't help themselves they just draft guys who were hurt in college and expect things to be different in a more physical NFL. It never turns out good and then they rinse and repeat and do it again.
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This. It's infuriating.
 
Mr teX said:
Jets front 7 will get after Cousins and JJ likely wont be much of a factor b/c of it…
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Good luck with that Buffalo couldn’t stop Cousins to Jefferson connection the entire game. Only thing can hope for is they have a let down against the Jets and Jets are 100%. Will say this, Sauce Gardner seems unfazed with the challenge, and touts his secondary teammates as big reason why.

Another factor that doesn’t get much attention are position coaches, see a lot of up and comers on that staff, former players with winning experience both as player and as coaches. Would have been cool if Texans had drafted Marquand Manuel inaugural season 2002 6th rd. Played 8 seasons & now 10 years in coaching with solid results each stop. Miles Austin, of Cowboy fame, played 10 years @ WR then went into scouting for two years now coaching receivers for Jets.

Point is, there are many factors behind the scenes and out into the future that affect play (players) on the field. It’s not fair to Stingley position and obstacles he must overcome to achieve his mark in the NFL. Know his dad has played a huge role in helping him and keeping focused. Hamstrings are fickle injuries that need recovery time. I would like to see him used differently as well, let him be the press corner against #1’s. Don’t know a lot about Dino Vasso, Texans secondary coach? No NFL playing experience, but was on Eagle staff when they won Super Bowl. Maybe his hands are tied by Lovie/scheme? Think we all would like to see a change how Derek is implemented, let him knock out some star WR’s and help Texans win more games (next season).
 
beerlover said:
Good luck with that Buffalo couldn’t stop Cousins to Jefferson connection the entire game. Only thing can hope for is they have a let down against the Jets and Jets are 100%. Will say this, Sauce Gardner seems unfazed with the challenge, and touts his secondary teammates as big reason why.

Another factor that doesn’t get much attention are position coaches, see a lot of up and comers on that staff, former players with winning experience both as player and as coaches. Would have been cool if Texans had drafted Marquand Manuel inaugural season 2002 6th rd. Played 8 seasons & now 10 years in coaching with solid results each stop. Miles Austin, of Cowboy fame, played 10 years @ WR then went into scouting for two years now coaching receivers for Jets.

Point is, there are many factors behind the scenes and out into the future that affect play (players) on the field. It’s not fair to Stingley position and obstacles he must overcome to achieve his mark in the NFL. Know his dad has played a huge role in helping him and keeping focused. Hamstrings are fickle injuries that need recovery time. I would like to see him used differently as well, let him be the press corner against #1’s. Don’t know a lot about Dino Vasso, Texans secondary coach? No NFL playing experience, but was on Eagle staff when they won Super Bowl. Maybe his hands are tied by Lovie/scheme? Think we all would like to see a change how Derek is implemented, let him knock out some star WR’s and help Texans win more games (next season).
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Spot On

Buffalo's secondary is beat up right now.
 
steelbtexan said:
Who had this occasional burst your speaking of?
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Most of these college injury flag players that we have drafted. From Clowney and Stingley, Sting supposedly ran 4:30 his freshman pre injury year. Did they think that’s the player they would be getting? Clowney with that knee, yea he show some crazy athleticism but how much could he sustain that in a game, 5 or 6 plays. Texans draft injured players watching pre injury tape. We see it throughout the rounds in the past and I’m not sure any of them had great success for very long if any at all. These two being such high picks will/had the most spotlight though. Clowney stuck around awhile but I don’t think he was worth that high pick.


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pirbroke said:
Most of these college injury flag players that we have drafted. From Clowney and Stingley, Sting supposedly ran 4:30 his freshman pre injury year. Did they think that’s the player they would be getting? Clowney with that knee, yea he show some crazy athleticism but how much could he sustain that in a game, 5 or 6 plays. Texans draft injured players watching pre injury tape. We see it throughout the rounds in the past and I’m not sure any of them had great success for very long if any at all. These two being such high picks will/had the most spotlight though. Clowney stuck around awhile but I don’t think he was worth that high pick.


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The Texans medical staff (Dr. Lowe in particular) has failed the Texans org.
 
texanhead08 said:
The Texans should run from players with a history of injury but they can't help themselves they just draft guys who were hurt in college and expect things to be different in a more physical NFL. It never turns out good and then they rinse and repeat and do it again.
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If you take the guys that were injured in college out of your draft pool, you are going to have a really limited pool. They just need to be a bit smarter about it.
 
pirbroke said:
Most of these college injury flag players that we have drafted. From Clowney and Stingley, Sting supposedly ran 4:30 his freshman pre injury year. Did they think that’s the player they would be getting? Clowney with that knee, yea he show some crazy athleticism but how much could he sustain that in a game, 5 or 6 plays. Texans draft injured players watching pre injury tape. We see it throughout the rounds in the past and I’m not sure any of them had great success for very long if any at all. These two being such high picks will/had the most spotlight though. Clowney stuck around awhile but I don’t think he was worth that high pick.


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Stingley did run a 4.37-40 at his LSU Pro Day.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Stingley did run a 4.37-40 at his LSU Pro Day.
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Gotta Be careful with pro day times which is why every team uses own stopwatch, some teams scouts may share times with other team scouts to get a consensus time but official should scrutinized.

Main thing was he (Derek) shown solid recovery, except as Cloak pointed out, would not measure lateral explosion pertaining to specific injury concern. But Doc also raised question about Sauce lean body build, would it hold up against more physical NFL conditions. Take both under advisement.
 
Have to share this. Do Texans marketing/productions create informative, entertaining short films like this?

As per Ahmad “Sauce” Gardner, it sure helps to have past leadership in the room, film study or personal to navigate NFL waters. Not funny but remember 2007 Draft and some rising up the boards, prospect named Darrell Revis. I missed it. Swore never again, but it happens. So many factors round a players career, sure helps the more boxes you can check off. Enjoy
 
That really says nothing at all but ok. A way to make 50% comp rate look good

That is an example of media hype.
 
JB said:
That really says nothing at all but ok. A way to make 50% comp rate look good

That is an example of media hype.
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Come on man. Why the fight? It’s way too early to judge but Sauce is one of the best in the business right now and Stingley is not even on the field. Doesn’t mean that’s what it will be in 3 years but that’s what it is now.

We talk about guys showing signs all the time around here for our mediocre at best players. Well, Sauce is showing signs and then some. Stingley? Still a ton of question marks. Again, that doesn’t mean count him as a bust in year 1, it’s just what it looks like right now.
 
Speedy said:
Come on man. Why the fight? It’s way too early to judge but Sauce is one of the best in the business right now and Stingley is not even on the field. Doesn’t mean that’s what it will be in 3 years but that’s what it is now.

We talk about guys showing signs all the time around here for our mediocre at best players. Well, Sauce is showing signs and then some. Stingley? Still a ton of question marks. Again, that doesn’t mean count him as a bust in year 1, it’s just what it looks like right now.
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You think Stingley is a bust?
 
Speedy said:
Come on man. Why the fight? It’s way too early to judge but Sauce is one of the best in the business right now and Stingley is not even on the field. Doesn’t mean that’s what it will be in 3 years but that’s what it is now.

We talk about guys showing signs all the time around here for our mediocre at best players. Well, Sauce is showing signs and then some. Stingley? Still a ton of question marks. Again, that doesn’t mean count him as a bust in year 1, it’s just what it looks like right now.
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I didn't say anything about Stingley nor did I say anything about Sauce's play not being good. I was just talking about that tweet being an example of media hype. Trying to make something appear more than it is. I like Sauce and yes he's a great CB
 
Thorn said:
I think it's to early to tell, but I also think it's trending in that direction. Most especially for the 3rd pick in the draft.
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He's going to be a solid long term CB.

Is he having as good of a yr as Sauce? No

But that doesn't mean he's a bust. He's had a solid rookie yr. IMHO
 
steelbtexan said:
He's going to be a solid long term CB.

Is he having as good of a yr as Sauce? No

But that doesn't mean he's a bust. He's had a solid rookie yr. IMHO
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If he can get past his injury history, your statement is true. If he can't, then you're wrong. We'll know more in a few years. LOL
 
JB said:
I didn't say anything about Stingley nor did I say anything about Sauce's play not being good. I was just talking about that tweet being an example of media hype. Trying to make something appear more than it is. I like Sauce and yes he's a great CB
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Hype or no hype he’s still one of the best there is this year so what does it matter?
 
IDEXAN said:
I dunno who says that outside of the New York media ?
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Since the forum only takes the last part of the conversation to quote, this was referring to Sauce Gardner being one of the best in the business.

Specific to who says that outside of the New York media, I would say anyone that watches football and has seen the kid play.
Not only that, for those that rely solely on the rankings like PFF, he's typically rated in the top 3, if not #1 as he has been through this season.
He has more than earned appearing in the pro bowl this year and is likely the defensive rookie of the year through week #14.
Still ball to be played though.
 
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