aussie_texan
Veteran
if i get time ill do it for the panthers saints game to get a comparison in different offences
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All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread
- Thread starter legacy_gt
- Start date
So what makes you think Keenum or Yates can't perform at that level? You must have seen how much our secondary and linebackers struggled against the freaking Jags. That is not a good team and our defense got exposed multiple times.
aussie_texan
Veteran
i never said they could. i had decent hopes for keenum but his last few weeks have been average. its hard to evaluate him with no foster, OD and poor o-line play.
Yates i have never been a fan of his a career back up nothing more nothing less.
if you look at a lot of my posts i have been banging on about drafting Mosley from Alabama a lot in the college football section
I would move everybody up a notch and drop Bridgewater to #5. In fact I like Mettenberger pre-injury almost as much as Bridgewater.
Murray is a true sleeper that you could probably pick at the top of the 4th rd. I love his accuracy/arm strength/decision making. If Murray were 6'3-6'4 instead of 6'0-6'1 he would be my favorite QB in this draft, even with a torn ACL.
I was really disappointed with Keenum's decision making tonight.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
I really like Murray as well, but the fact remains that he's only 6' feet tall and the odds are against him.
As for Keenum, he just has no consistency. He makes some great plays and leads a touchdown drive and then we don't get a 1st down for the rest of the quarter. Now there's a lot of factors that go into that (coaching, playcalling, O-Line, etc) but he is a huge factor as well. That INT he threw was just god awful.
Last night looked like you expect rookie QBs to look. A little lost, a little confused and not ready for NFL speed.
The porous O-Line and play-calling weren't his friends again, but he made some really poor decisions and started looking a bit too rattled for the conditions.
The porous O-Line and play-calling weren't his friends again, but he made some really poor decisions and started looking a bit too rattled for the conditions.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
he's not the answer...Ty Detmer is his upside.
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
Well in his second year with the team and his 7th start you would think he might be moving in the other direction. Schaub while sacked seemed to deal with the same porous oline and put up nearly the same productivity in just over a quarter that Case had in nearly 3. Clearly the Texans do not have the answer to the QB problem
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
It's not all the oline. We've seen this every game Keenum has played in. He can't seem read a blitz to save his life. Hence, failing to go hot.
There were only a hand full of oline fails, imo
JCTexan
Hall of Fame
I don't quite understand how this matters. The only thing it truly says to me is Kubiak allowed Schaub to throw more in 1 quarter than he did Keenum in three. Schaub in 1 quarter had 29 passes, Keenum in 3 had 29 passes. The productively should be reflective in pass attempts/completions rather than quarters played IMO.
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
It matters because its clear to me atleast that Schaub can run the offense better however its also clear we need something else at QB. If Case could handle it, it would have been an option for him. The Case homers should see by now that the 32 year old reject is still better than he is. Time to move on from both
Also of note its interesting that the oline was a big reason for the poor production in the first 3 quarters and then that turned around
Vinny
shiny happy fan
both qb's missing wide open wr's...Schaub missed a WIDE open AJ at the end of the game across the middle. This slowass dink and dunk offense blows. QB guru my ass
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
Schaub's first and second drives looked like the 15 scripted plays that start each half. Keenum never executed them, so Schaub did it with familiarity. After that, he went back to typical Schaub.
yeah, I'm not seeing the "QB of the future" on the current roster.
Like Mike Maycock said last night, Keenum is "at least" a serviceable backup QB in this league.
But no way would I go into the offseason with a high first pick and just hand him the keys to the franchise. Got to take a chance on a QB and make them compete. It's always a gamble, but it seems to me that going all in with Case is merely a bluff and a hope and prayer.
I like the kid and have rooted for him, but time to get real. They need to clean house of the current coaching staff and give the new HC a high pick to start a new era.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
^^^ This.
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
At this point it doesn't matter anyway. McNair said they are going to start Case the last three games so they can make a decision on him. I think that's the correct thing to do. Schaub is out, Yates isn't starter material, so they have to find out whether Case is or not. It will most certainly affect the draft.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
That's the part that scares me about all this...there's still this lingering thought that Case can be a starter...i just don't see it.
bah007
Hall of Fame
Gotta keep those UH alumni in the seats for the last home game.
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
And if he's not he'll show it and they'll draft a QB very high. I kind of hate to predict anything right now until I know who the new head coach is.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
well i'm UH alum & if that's his aim, he's ****ing up....the verdict on whether or not Keenum is the future is already 85% in & the results are at best mixed. That alone should be enough for us to spend a high pick on a qb in the draft.
I doubt Keenum does anything in this last 15% of the season remotely close to what he needs to do to solidify himself as the future of this team @ qb.
You're right though, at this point rolling Keenum out there is doing nothing but trying to appease UH alumni.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Well, there's at least one person in McNair who thinks that Kubiak has not facilitated the evaluation and/or development of Keenum. So we get the final three games to see what differences show up. We said he should get ten games at the beginning, so no sense rushing to judgment before those ten games.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
We already saw what he looked like under Dennison & Dorel when Kubiak went out with the stroke....
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
So, how did you or anyone come up with yates isn't starter material,yet wanna see more of keenum? How can you or anyone determine this on the rose colored logic? Say what u will and missing andre for most of his starts, tj knew where to go with the ball. We never saw 20 yd retreat sacks either. Again, he walked in a hostile cincy with the playoffs on the line,with little time and won that game. Don't forget the atlanta game and the playoff win. Yet, we need to see what case have? Yeah,right.
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
Even if you are right, and I don't think you are, it doesn't matter. Uncle Bob wants to see Case play and that's the bottom line. Either Case is the starter next year or they draft a QB or pick up someone. Either way Yates isn't going to be the starter next year. And maybe Case isn't either. We'll see.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
I know. I posted numbers the other day showing Keenum with and without Kubiak.
Exascor
Veteran
I wanted Keenum to get a CHANCE to show what he could do. My opinion after 3-4 games was that if he continued like that (see Nick Foles) then you go into next season with him at starter and get some vet, mid round draft pick for competition. He hasn't continued so I'm on the draft a QB with a high pick bandwagon.
As for Yates...he hasn't done anything that makes you think he'd be more than a game managing back up. He, like Keenum, had something that caused him to be drafted low. He would have to do something special to change people's minds. He didn't "win" any games. The defense was playing at Superbowl levels and Foster was playing really good - he just didn't mess up too bad. He scored no more than 20 ppg and had 3 TDs 3 INTs with 3 lost fumbles in the regular season. He had 159 yards and a TD in the playoff win vs the Bengals. I won't bring up the Ravens game stats. He looked no better than Keenum in this preseason. When he was given a chance this season (yeah he had no prep & came off the bench) he blew his chance. He is a a less talented QB than Schaub with more foot speed.
EVOLVIST
Kid A
Except that all the adjectives that have described Kubiak as a "Quarterback Guru" and "Offensive Genius," are all based upon Gary's archaic, outmoded, backup quarterback mentality, so that honorifics of this sort no longer apply to him. At one time, yes! In 2013 the game has passed him by; consequently, Gary's myopia has extended to Case Keenum, TJ Yates, and yes, even to Matt Schaub, and it has shown in their gameplay and predictability, all predicated on Kubiak's "teaching."
I am sincerely convinced that the regression of TJ Yates and now Case Keenum, is not wholly, but in part attributed to young men buying into old concepts. The talent of the man throwing the football is of course a major factor, but we've all seen two guys come in and light it up like gangbusters, only to regress the more they are inoculated into the system.
There is also no doubt that opposing teams having game film on Keenum has contributed to Case's regression; still, game film primarily identifies tendencies that can be exploited. But every QB that has ever played has tendencies - and even the best QBs fall prey to their shortcomings, either by means of human error or an opposing team/coach/player being that good at exposing you. Some tendencies can be corrected. Some cannot. Whatever the case, it's a process...and anyone who's ever done any self-work on themselves knows it doesn't happen overnight.
The tendencies of the player, however, does not dictate constant 7-step drops, coupled with long developing routes, with a blitz in your grill nearly ever 3rd down. These errors in coaching create artificial tendencies - yet tendencies, nonetheless - that retard growth and lose games.
Bless his heart, but Gary Kubiak was the perfect self-scratching itch.
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
Yates didn't screw up that much, except when he did in the most crucial time----against Baltimore in the playoffs.
Ugh.
Ugh.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
I question Kubiak using his "quarterback guru" powers to their full potential on Keenum. If he had, he wouldn't have pulled case the second time. He may have put some effort into Keenum, but Kubiak is the type of guy that is a slave to familiarity and put in Schaub. Loyalty, familiarity, whatever you want to call it Keenum was always an after thought when possibly the higher ups wanted and told Kubiak to play Keenum over Schaub. You can see from today's press conference that McNair wants to see Keenum play.
I wonder why Case is throwing 3 feet behind receivers on 5 yard plays. I don't think I've ever miss so many easy passes even watching him in college. I don't know if he's lost all confidence or what but last night he did not look good.
The guy can throw it accurately 20+ yards but can't throw it 5-10 yards. Weird...
The guy can throw it accurately 20+ yards but can't throw it 5-10 yards. Weird...
Because he's throwing to a spot where he thinks the receivers will be, and they are not on the same page.
TK alluded to this on the other thread and I'm in complete agreement with it. If they take a QB high in the draft, Keenum will NOT be the starter next year, no matter how good Keenum will be in training camp, and no matter how bad the high priced rookie is. It will still be the high dollar draft pick vs. the undrafted free agent, and we all know how that cookie crumbles.
We're gonna have a Rivers/Brees situation, and in my view, Keenum will go to another team and shine, just like all the other players we let go.
I'm very pessimistic how this shakes out.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I hear ya & mostly agree with everything except a few points. Good qbs don't let you corner them into 1 tendency or another & it doesn't matter what defenses are trying to do to you....That's one thing that you see early on with good qbs. It might give the defense a better chance to win by taking away a big tendency that that qb has, but ultimately, that qb can make you pay another way....that isn't the case with Schaub...and/or now Keenum.
Case's tendencies have been born out of the things he does best (spread the defense out & throw it deep) & when those things were largely taken away from him he did not adjust well.
The HC & QB need their skills to mesh together on offense to hammer out something both are comfortable with. It's a pretty involved process & it's made easier when you've got a stud, but it's something that needs to happen. So i don't think it was so much about Gary's archaic mentality about offense or qb development as it is/was about Keenum's ability to meet him half way in developing a viable, sustainable offense. We can literally see kubiak's efforts to mesh the offense with Keenum's skill set through the pistol formation, the zone read, the qb keepers plays.......we never saw much, if any of that before Case.
That's why I got so tired of people in here blathering about how Kubiak wasn't letting "case be case" or claiming that Kubiak was trying to turn Case into Schaub..couldn't have been further from the truth imo. What Kubiak was trying to do when he had Case under center & running other "schaub-like" plays was trying to incorporate some "normal" aspects of his offense that could help offset some of the things defenses were doing to Case. He knew you couldn't sustain an NFL offense doing only the things Keenum feels most comfortable. It probably wasn't enough TBH...At some point you've got to settle into something much more comprehensive & viable...
Last night showed this perfectly. The offense looked stagnant with Keenum most of the night, but Schaub comes in & we're moving the ball up & down the field like it's nothing. But b/c all people heard was Mayock saying "uptempo" they automatically think "oh why doesn't he do that with keenum, he did it so well at UH" Well, if keenum wasn't good at running the plays in the uptempo package, then it doesn't matter if it's uptempo or not..
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
This could turn out to be true...
...however....let's just consider another possibility...
...perhaps there is a reason why Case is an UDFA that sat on the Texans practice squad for a entire season and no interest was ever shown in him by 31 other teams? Maybe we fans are missing something that professional coaches and scouts in the NFL see in evaluating him?
I'm just sayin', there could always be the other side, y'know?
And while I know it's become a situation of comparing Keenum to other vertically challenged QBs, we also have to consider those QBs showed enough to get drafted. Brees in the 2nd round and Wilson in the 3rd. Obviously, draft position is not the be all / end all, but certainly QBs are extensively scrutinized and analyzed by the NFL machine in today's day and age, more than any other position all things considered.
I'm not saying Keenum cannot or will not, but big picture here, a lot of our hopes and perceptions are not aligned with the reality.
bah007
Hall of Fame
This x1000. Perfect response.
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
This could turn out to be true...
...however....let's just consider another possibility...
...perhaps there is a reason why Case is an UDFA that sat on the Texans practice squad for a entire season and no interest was ever shown in him by 31 other teams? Maybe we fans are missing something that professional coaches and scouts in the NFL see in evaluating him?
I'm just sayin', there could always be the other side, y'know?
And while I know it's become a situation of comparing Keenum to other vertically challenged QBs, we also have to consider those QBs showed enough to get drafted. Brees in the 2nd round and Wilson in the 3rd. Obviously, draft position is not the be all / end all, but certainly QBs are extensively scrutinized and analyzed by the NFL machine in today's day and age, more than any other position all things considered.
I'm not saying Keenum cannot or will not, but big picture here, a lot of our hopes and perceptions are not aligned with the reality.
Msr
BeerTastesLikeVictory
Custom Title
Some really good posts the last page or so. I am now off the Keenum bandwagon. Yes I am a UH alum and wanted so bad for the "local kid made good story", but winning is more important. I don't really like the thought that he needs a entire offseason with the #1's to see what he can really do. As we all know he was an UDFA on the practice squad that got transplanted to the started role within a couple weeks, bypassing the number 2 guy on the roster. This was a chance of a lifetime for him and a 6-7 game (I can't even keep track anymore) evaluation I think is plenty to see what the kid brings to the table. We've got nothing else so we might as well trot him out there for the final games, but he would have to completely set the league a blaze for the next 3 games for me to jump back on board.
I'm still all for bringing him in for competition and keeping him as the #2, but I don't see him as the game changer he was in college. I've got no answer as I m not a draftnik or one to keep up with college QB's so I am at the mercy of the new regime.
I'm still all for bringing him in for competition and keeping him as the #2, but I don't see him as the game changer he was in college. I've got no answer as I m not a draftnik or one to keep up with college QB's so I am at the mercy of the new regime.
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
I'm still willing to give him more time. He showed flashes early and played well versus NE. I think he will finish out better.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Case has 3 more games. Let him participate in-think tanking the game plans, let him freely audible, and see what he can do. I see no downside.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Wade and Dennison aren't going to add a new chapter to the playbook. They'll adjust the mix.
People can hate on Case all they want. The decision is made. He's starting the next 3 games. I'm glad to hear it. I honestly don't think Kubiak was doing a great job with him. I've never seen a starting QB pulled the way Case was. He was not playing great, but he was not lost or throwing multiple INTs or losing the game for us like Schaub was earlier this year.
Jury is still out on him as it is most QBs their first year of playing except the truly horrible and the most gifted. I have seen truly horrible QBs play plenty in the NFL. Case is not one of them. He'll be on some rosters for the next 4-5 years. minimum he's a journeyman QB until he changes careers.
The difference between Keenum and Yates is that Keenum has shown flashes of brilliance and Yates never really did. There was never even the hope he was a future starter. While Keenum's stock is clearly down, it hasn't bottomed out.
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
The reason you haven't seen a starter pulled like case is well because he wasn't really a NFL starter. Our starter and number 2 tanked
I don't agree with this.
Yes, there was a reason he was third, but if they had a decent starter (Schaub was), an experienced back up (Tj is), & an opportunity to get to the Super Bowl (we did) then being the third string isn't necessarily crap.
That said, watching Keenum between the 20s is like watching Schaub in the Red Zone. You know what's going to happen. I'm not going to go so far as to say I could call the plays, but I know more than likely the drive is going to end in a punt.
& we're winless. I'm not seeing Kaepernick or Wilson out there. I'm seeing Jake Locker. At this point we'd be foolish not to improve our QB position in the draft.
That said... I also think Kubiak was trying to get Keenum to run "his" system more than he was trying to win games. Case has got ability. They made it easy for Kaepernick & Wilson to adjust to the NFL, we haven't (imo) been doing that for Case.
If Case doesn't make a drastic change in the way he plays over the next 3 games, I'm all on board for drafting a QB in the first.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I'm already on board for drafting a QB in the first.
Open competition during Training Camp. Worst case* is we end up with a Brees/Rivers situation.
(No pun intended.)