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Fair is fair : Morlon Greenwood

Yeah...has he even played this preseason? If he has he hasn't done anything to catch my eye. I wonder if he might end up on the chopping block.
 
TexanSam said:
Yeah...has he even played this preseason? If he has he hasn't done anything to catch my eye. I wonder if he might end up on the chopping block.
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He had three solo tackles and played pretty well against Chicago.
 
Yeah...That was actually a pretty decent effort out of Morlon...

I think a more physically gifted player would have knocked it down....But it's definitely not a knock on him for not making it....
 
TheRealJoker said:
I think Diles is being groomed to be his replacement for next season.
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Haven't seen a lot of Zach Diles to say I like him as the starting WLB...I think he does some good things out there, but I do know that I want Morlon replaced...

I don't like his game too much...
 
Matt said:
He had three solo tackles and played pretty well against Chicago.
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Demeco also had 3 tackles against Chicago...

how many of Demeco's tackles can you remember and how many of Morlon's can you remember ?
 
While Morlon hasn't been spectacular for the money he's being paid he hasn't been horrid either. Somewhere in the middle but i think the biggest knock we'll all agree on is his salary. I don't see him getting replaced this year but from the sounds of it Diles is going to be pushing for PT and whomever loses between Clark and Anderson will as well.

I think his job is relatively safe this year with inexperience at his spot but team depth is catching up with him. Next year it might be a case of either take a paycut and compete for your spot or say goodbye.
 
No...I just think he is a bad ball player....

Yes it has something to do with his salary, but I don't believe him to be a quality starter on a good defense...

He's not that good a LB IMHO....
 
Goldensilence said:
While Morlon hasn't been spectacular for the money he's being paid he hasn't been horrid either. Somewhere in the middle but i think the biggest knock we'll all agree on is his salary.
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I couldn't disagree more...he is wildly overpaid and is one of the last Casserly disaster contracts still on the roster with a cap hit of $4,664,000. There is no way he is the second best player on the team.

http://www.houstonprofootball.com/cap.html
 
Vinny said:
I couldn't disagree more...he is wildly overpaid and is one of the last Casserly disaster contracts still on the roster with a cap hit of $4,664,000. There is no way he is the second best player on the team.

http://www.houstonprofootball.com/cap.html
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I'm not defending the guy and there is definately no way I even came close to saying he is the second best player on the team.

I was stating that for the money he's definately not as spectacular as he should be. But let's be honest it's not like his numbers and play have been completely terrible either. Just not enough to warrant his salary but hey we've had several players seal their retirement off of Casserly calls.

His job is relatively safe this year but next year i think it's going to go down as i said before.
 
Goldensilence said:
. But let's be honest it's not like his numbers and play have been completely terrible either. .
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Do you guys really watch Morlon ?

The guy is a bad starting LB....

He is about to be on the downside of his career and the guy has never gotten more than 56 solos in a season and it's not like he hasn't been playing...he's been starting games since he was a rookie...

Racking up a lot of asst. tackles 7 yards down field is what I call: unimpressive
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
I don't believe him to be a quality starter on a good defense...

He's not that good a LB IMHO....
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Tad bit of an overstatement since he was a starter on D's that ranked 4th and 2nd in the league during his tenure in Miami. Definitely could be upgraded, but not such a hack that the D can't be good with him on it.
 
infantrycak said:
Definitely could be upgraded, but not such a hack that the D can't be good with him on it.
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I don't understand how that disputes what I said...

What does that have to do with him individually being a quality player ?

If he were playing like he is playing now on a bad defense AKA a second string defense he'd be a quality player...

Just because a defense can be successful with him on it doesn't mean he's a quality starter on that defense..
 
oh and lets say we just call him bad and get rid of him, who else do we have that is a cover linebacker? Barber? please
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Demeco also had 3 tackles against Chicago...

how many of Demeco's tackles can you remember and how many of Morlon's can you remember ?
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That's a pointless question. For instance, DeMeco had five tackles against AZ, but Danny Clark's one tackle stands out in my mind more than all of Ryans' combined.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
No...I just think he is a bad ball player....

Yes it has something to do with his salary, but I don't believe him to be a quality starter on a good defense...

He's not that good a LB IMHO....
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He had 108 tackles on Miami's defense in 2004, and that unit was way better than anything we've put on the field. Whether you like Greenwood or not, he's much better than you give him credit for.
 
Matt said:
That's a pointless question. For instance, DeMeco had five tackles against AZ, but Danny Clark's one tackle stands out in my mind more than all of Ryans' combined.
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Exactly...

Now how many of Morlon's stand out...


Let's see...Danny Clark...first game starting...stands out...

Morlon Green Wood...Starting since Day one...Has harldy been noticed...

That's not good for a weakside LB...
 
Matt said:
He had 108 tackles on Miami's defense in 2004, and that unit was way better than anything we've put on the field. Whether you like Greenwood or not, he's much better than you give him credit for.
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Morlon has noever had 108 tackles...

There are kids that read these boards...lets try to keep it as accurate as possible for the young ones' sake...

http://www.nfl.com/players/morlongreenwood/profile?id=GRE627649

The guy has never had more than 56 solos...

since stats is your thing....
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Morlon has noever had 108 tackles...

There are kids that read these boards...lets try to keep it as accurate as possible for the young ones' sake...

http://www.nfl.com/players/morlongreenwood/profile?id=GRE627649

The guy has never had more than 56 solos...

since stats is your thing....
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NFL.com's redesign has bugs. The depth charts are wrong (if present at all) and the stats going back beyond 2005 have not been verified.

See here for Greenwood's real stats:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=2637

And note that he has 80+ solos the past three seasons.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Exactly...

Now how many of Morlon's stand out...


Let's see...Danny Clark...first game starting...stands out...

Morlon Green Wood...Starting since Day one...Has harldy been noticed...

That's not good for a weakside LB...
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You don't have to stand out to be productive. Greenwood has been consistently solid for us. Just because he's not a pro bowler does not mean he is not good.
 
Matt said:
NFL.com's redesign has bugs. The depth charts are wrong (if present at all) and the stats going back beyond 2005 have not been verified.

See here for Greenwood's real stats:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=2637

And note that he has 80+ solos the past three seasons.
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And this site is totally diferrent: http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5536&Submit=Go

Another problem when trying to use stats to judge a players ability...

I trust my eyes, and my eyes tell me he's not a good ball player...
 
Matt said:
You don't have to stand out to be productive. Greenwood has been consistently solid for us. Just because he's not a pro bowler does not mean he is not good.
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Not asking for a probowler...I'm asking for a weakside LB that can make plays...

Last year (according to the 'stats') was his first career int...that's pretty bad...

He's not a good pass rusher, not good in coverage, doesn't make plays in the backfield...

He's not a good LB....JMO
 
Matt said:
He had 108 tackles on Miami's defense in 2004, and that unit was way better than anything we've put on the field. Whether you like Greenwood or not, he's much better than you give him credit for.
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Jay Foreman always had a ton of tackles when he was here...but couldn't find steady work once cut. One way to look at a ton of tackles is that you can't get get off the field...this leads to more tackles. Stats have their place but most of them don't tell you if the tackle was 8 yards downfield or at the los. I agree that Greenwood is average....not bad, but average....and overpaid.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
And this site is totally diferrent: http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5536&Submit=Go

Another problem when trying to use stats to judge a players ability...

I trust my eyes, and my eyes tell me he's not a good ball player...
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pro-football-reference has him with 101 in 2004. Anyway, point taken... it's hard to talk tackles when they aren't an official stat.

Still, my eyes say he's a good player with good instincts (i.e. the attempted defense of the TD pass) who doesn't get any love because he doesn't pile up gaudy numbers or make highlight reel hits.

More importantly, though, I don't think we have anyone on the team now who could replace him and do a better job. Unlike a position like CB2, where we have at least two guys who could do a better job than Petey. When we get to the point where WLB is our biggest weakness, or even one of our two or three biggest weaknesses, I'd be willing to invest in an upgrade. For now, I am more than happy with Morlon.
 
Vinny said:
Jay Foreman always had a ton of tackles when he was here...but couldn't find steady work once cut. One way to look at a ton of tackles is that you can't get get off the field...this leads to more tackles. Stats have their place but most of them don't tell you if the tackle was 8 yards downfield or at the los. I agree that Greenwood is average....not bad, but average....and overpaid.
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Except those 108 came with a pretty good defensive unit in Miami, not here in Houston.
 
Matt said:
Unlike a position like CB2, where we have at least two guys who could do a better job than Petey. When we get to the point where WLB is our biggest weakness, or even one of our two or three biggest weaknesses, I'd be willing to invest in an upgrade. For now, I am more than happy with Morlon.
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guess we just have different opinions on a lot of the players..

I think Petey is easily the second best corner on the team...
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
guess we just have different opinions on a lot of the players..

I think Petey is easily the second best corner on the team...
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Wow. Seriously? I mean, "second best" corner on this team isn't saying a whole lot, but I think you could plug a few of the other guys in there and get at least as much production out of that position. Petey is one of the worst CB2s in the AFC. Ironically, he's one of the better nickel guys. I don't know how that works, other than he works more effectively when there is less space to worry about.
 
Matt said:
Wow. Seriously? I mean, "second best" corner on this team isn't saying a whole lot, but I think you could plug a few of the other guys in there and get at least as much production out of that position. Petey is one of the worst CB2s in the AFC. Ironically, he's one of the better nickel guys. I don't know how that works, other than he works more effectively when there is less space to worry about.
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Don't get me wrong....

Eventaually Petey needs to go...

And I'm not saying we need to replace any of our players "right now", but eventually I'd like to see a better player than Morlon man that WLB position..in this defense Morlon should be making a ton of plays...but he's not...
 
Nobody I've seen in recent memory has made an argument that Morlon Greenwood was worth the money he was being paid. He's never even come close to earning that money. He's so far from being able to earn his millions that debate of this subject isn't even possible.

He is not however a bum. He's not the worst linebacker on our team and he's perfectly capable of starting for a number of other teams. At any given time there are between 96 and 128 starting linebackers in the NFL (assuming all 3-4's or all 4-3's) and last time I checked there was only one Ray Lewis. The rest fall somewhere between Ray Lewis and Jay Foreman.

I'm not unhappy with Morlon Greenwood. I just wish he didn't earn as much money as he does.
 
Matt said:
Wow. Seriously? I mean, "second best" corner on this team isn't saying a whole lot, but I think you could plug a few of the other guys in there and get at least as much production out of that position. Petey is one of the worst CB2s in the AFC. Ironically, he's one of the better nickel guys. I don't know how that works, other than he works more effectively when there is less space to worry about.
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he is a solid nickel guy...cause he has pretty good hips and has nice coverage skills. He isn't a good cb2 because he isn't good in run support for the most part.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Don't get me wrong....

Eventaually Petey needs to go...

And I'm not saying we need to replace any of our players "right now", but eventually I'd like to see a better player than Morlon man that WLB position..in this defense Morlon should be making a ton of plays...but he's not...
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OK, we are closer to agreeing on this than I thought. I have no problem losing Morlon if we suddenly had someone noticeably better. I just don't think that someone is on our team or available in free agency right now. (Maybe we get lucky and tread water until Derrick Johnson is a free agent in 2010? :doot:)

As for Petey... dunno. I just hope that Bennett can overtake him, though seeing the Bears run right past him made me think that would be later rather than sooner.
 
Matt said:
And because he can't match up against big receivers or recover anytime he gets beaten on a move.
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well...most cb's are smallish since they have better hips to turn and run than longer legged lankier WR body type guys. I don't see size as his fatal flaw in coverage as much as I see it as a flaw in him being a starting caliber CB since run support is so important...Faggins has been good in coverage for the most part historically. One of the big problems in Faggins is that our pass rush is just non-existent and a flawed CB gets exposed more when they get zero help up front. I've seen Faggins in enough coverage to know he is a competent coverage guy...if you wanna really know why he isn't a cb2 material go watch Curtis Martin turn him around on his long TD run last year...it was an awful display of run support.
 
Vinny said:
well...most cb's are smallish since they have better hips to turn and run than longer legged lankier WR body type guys. I don't see size as his fatal flaw in coverage as much as I see it as a flaw in him being a starting caliber CB...Faggins has been good in coverage for the most part historically. One of the big problems in Faggins is that our pass rush is just non-existent and a flawed CB gets exposed more when they get zero help up front. I've seen Faggins in enough coverage to know he is a competent coverage guy...if you wanna really know why he isn't a cb2 material go watch Curtis Martin turn him around on his long TD run last year...it was an awful display of run support.
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I was referring to strength as much as size, really. He is too small and too weak against the bigger guys, which is a really bad combination. He is good in straight coverage; like I said, it's when he makes a small mistake, he lacks the speed to recover. His instincts are also suspect, especially in zone coverage.

So, given all of that, is it much of a stretch to say that we could get the same production out of Fletcher or Hutchins or Bennett? (Not all of them, but out of the three we should be able to find one.)
 
Matt said:
I was referring to strength as much as size, really. He is too small and too weak against the bigger guys, which is a really bad combination. He is good in straight coverage; like I said, it's when he makes a small mistake, he lacks the speed to recover. His instincts are also suspect, especially in zone coverage.

So, given all of that, is it much of a stretch to say that we could get the same production out of Fletcher or Hutchins or Bennett? (Not all of them, but out of the three we should be able to find one.)
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hence the reason he is a good nickel back (size and strength issues that keep him from being a starter). If you are an old Oiler fan I'd compare him to old Oiler nickel back Stevie Jackson. Jackson was not an ideal physical CB but had decent cover skills and was weak in run support much like Petey is. Bennett is clearly not ready....perhaps Fletcher can take the job but really...we haven't seen enough of any of these guys in actual games here to really know.
 
Vinny said:
hence the reason he is a good nickel back (size and strength issues that keep him from being a starter). If you are an old Oiler fan I'd compare him to old Oiler nickel back Stevie Jackson. Jackson was not an ideal physical CB but had decent cover skills and was weak in run support much like Petey is. Bennett is clearly not ready....perhaps Fletcher can take the job but really...we haven't seen enough of any of these guys in actual games here to really know.
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Gawd, I really wish you hadn't done that to me. See, I try to like Faggins, and then he has a long pass go against him where he just totally looks like crap. Then I rationalize it, and you go and compare him to Steve Jackson, while flashbacks of Beebe and Reed toasting him run wildly in my head.

Come to think of it, he did look an awful lot like Steve Jackson against Lee Evans last year .....
 
Matt said:
Except those 108 came with a pretty good defensive unit in Miami, not here in Houston.
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actually no, foreman led the texans in tackles also, but as others said it was because our d was on the field alot, and we played the 3-4.

Greenwoods biggest problem is he is not quick to the ball, he gets in on alot of plays but a second too late, if you notice he is in the pile on most plays, just not the first guy to hit alot. he plays decent pass coverage though, better than anyone else we have (not saying much) plain and simple he is a average but solid weak side LB with decent coverage skill and closing speed. to improve that position we will have to wait till next year when we have the cap money. Good Wills are not cheap.
 
eriadoc said:
Gawd, I really wish you hadn't done that to me. See, I try to like Faggins, and then he has a long pass go against him where he just totally looks like crap. Then I rationalize it, and you go and compare him to Steve Jackson, while flashbacks of Beebe and Reed toasting him run wildly in my head.

Come to think of it, he did look an awful lot like Steve Jackson against Lee Evans last year .....
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I don't think the Oiler fans liked it when Jackson was forced to start either, but he was a competent nickel back just like Petey is...Frankly I kind of feel bad for Faggins because he can't help that the Texans passed on one of the top 2 CB's coming out of college last year....we will have to sit and watch Petey play in a position he isn't ideally suited for all year, and that is on the coaches and staff more than Faggins. If we don't get a pass rush it will be a long year...no matter who is at CB.
 
TK_Gamer said:
Greenwoods biggest problem is he is not quick to the ball, he gets in on alot of plays but a second too late, if you notice he is in the pile on most plays, just not the first guy to hit alot. he plays decent pass coverage though, better than anyone else we have (not saying much) plain and simple he is a average but solid weak side LB with decent coverage skill and closing speed. to improve that position we will have to wait till next year when we have the cap money. Good Wills are not cheap.
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I agree with you here. I noticed a play during the Bears game where there was approx a full second before he made his read and reacted to it. By then he was already being met by an Olineman. I made it a point to watch him off and on since that play. He hasn't been as bad as the said play, but he doesn't even come close to D-Ryans or Anderson for that matter.

His reaction time is less than desired, but I'd have to agree with he being the best suited for the position (on our present roster). :d:
 
Vinny said:
I don't think the Oiler fans liked it when Jackson was forced to start either, but he was a competent nickel back just like Petey is...Frankly I kind of feel bad for Faggins because he can't help that the Texans passed on one of the top 2 CB's coming out of college last year....we will have to sit and watch Petey play in a position he isn't ideally suited for all year, and that is on the coaches and staff more than Faggins. If we don't get a pass rush it will be a long year...no matter who is at CB.
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I've said as much before, but it still makes me :brickwall: . If he's stronger in coverage than he is in run support, that's not by much. When he gets beat, he gets beat big.

I just didn't need the '93 Oilers visual, LOL.
 
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