WiiBrawler
WiiMan
I think David Carr's Career would be a middle of the road kinda guy sorta like Kerry Collins or Jake Plummer, he wouldnt be sacked as much, but he will not have those game were he gets only 9 incompletions
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How Do You Think David Carr's Career would have changed if we had Boseli or an O-line
- Thread starter WiiBrawler
- Start date
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Just when I thought that I was out they pull me back in.
mexican_texan
Furry Tractors
The play of the QB relies on the play of the O-line. The better the O-line, the better the QB.That won me all the arguments with the Carr-haters
ensign_lee
Rookie
No doubt that he'd be having a Carson Palmer type of season year in and year out, which is very similar to a Peyton Manning type of season. I think Gaffney would have developed better, and we would have had our 1-2 punch with our WRs.
It is EXTREMELY HARD to throw when a 300 lb guy is about to come and kill you.
It is EXTREMELY HARD to throw when a 300 lb guy is about to come and kill you.
texan279
Hall of Fame
thegr8fan said:what color would the sky be if it wasn't blue?
Just thought I would add another totally irrelavent hypothetical nonsensical question I always wanted the answer to, since this seems to be the thread for it.
Chill, it's the offseason, the draft's over now, nothing much else to talk about. A lot of the threads around now are questions involving hypothetical situations and speculation.
ComstockLode
Waterboy
Would Carr have played better if he had played for the lions?
In my opinion, the answer is no. The lions knew when to give up on their first round QB. Having a bad offensive line has stopped alot of you from just analyzing carr, instead of looking at the sacks.
He cant throw a deep ball, he doesnt understand touch on short throws, and he has terrible pocket presence.
I am not a david carr hater, I just dont think he is going to be a great qb.
In my opinion, the answer is no. The lions knew when to give up on their first round QB. Having a bad offensive line has stopped alot of you from just analyzing carr, instead of looking at the sacks.
He cant throw a deep ball, he doesnt understand touch on short throws, and he has terrible pocket presence.
I am not a david carr hater, I just dont think he is going to be a great qb.
SnakeOilTanker
Waterboy
Kaiser Toro said:
maybe I'm the only one that appericated that
mexican_texan said:
Not Necessarily. Tom Brady took over for Drew Bledsoe(who I compare David to) and went on to win a SuperBowl while being sacked 41 times..... a high number, considering he didn't play the first two/three games. He threw for like 3000 yards to a bunch of nobodies, had a QB rating over 80......... had nobody in the backfield.
If Peyton wasn't so good at getting rid of the ball, he'd have a bunch of 30+ sack seasons, and his OL wouldn't look that great(see Pittsburgh & SanDiego) .
If you really want to talk about how good David is, we, can......... we can go on for months.... it'll distract our attention from focusing on winning games and rooting for our team.
From what we've seen, I don't see how anyone can think David will ever be more than Drew Bledsoe........ Holds the ball, slow making decisions, not as accurate as many people think.
Good enough to get us to the dance........ yes........ good enough to win it all ...... yes.... I don't think David is going to loose any games for us, and that's a good thing. But as of today, there aren't many teams gameplanning against our QB. That's bad.
ensign_lee said:
That may be true, but we are a running team, something neither the Bengals or the Colts claim....... We would have been stretching the field, but nothing like what Palmer & Peyton are doing. I agree Gaffney would have had much better production though.
I am curious, though why has our play book been getting smaller & smaller every year..... last year we had what 8 plays?? including the runs.
In his 76 sack season(2002) he threw the ball downfield a lot more often, than in 2005, meaning more deep routes, less hitches. why is that??
OzzO
.. and then?
Interesting stat I heard on 610 I believe yesterday. In 2004 Carr completed 40 something passes of 20 or more yards. In 2005, he completed 18. That was worse than their inagural season when they had a new team and mass hysteria - I think it was 24-ish or so that was mentioned of 20+ yards.
What that has to do with the thread... kinda a tangent, but seemed like a good place to mention it. With that and a few other QB's in the AFC that are defintely ahead of Carr... I'm kinda between occasional probowl and middle of the road.
I think I'll lean towards middle of the road with hope of a future occasional probowler.
edit - thunder, guess you just gave me a good segue posting just before me.
What that has to do with the thread... kinda a tangent, but seemed like a good place to mention it. With that and a few other QB's in the AFC that are defintely ahead of Carr... I'm kinda between occasional probowl and middle of the road.
I think I'll lean towards middle of the road with hope of a future occasional probowler.
edit - thunder, guess you just gave me a good segue posting just before me.
Exascor
Veteran
I'm fairly neutral about Carr. He has some of the tools to be a good QB but seems to be missing the natural instinct or drive it takes to be one of the greats.
Last year was a sign of a horrible coaching staff (with no clue) trying to fix one problem without understanding the consequences of their "fix". The problem was all the sacks. The idea was having most of the passing plays set up to get the ball out of Carr's hands fast. The problem that created is teams learned in the preseason that the Texans weren't going deep often so they just played goalline pass defense. Why is it so difficult to score in the redzone? Because the field shrinks. Just like the Run N Shoot kept the Oilers' opponents in a 3rd & long defense (making many D coordinators very happy) we created a situation favorable to the defense. It was really frustrating to watch.
Bottom line is I feel coaching and scheme destroyed Carr and can only hope that Kubiak and the new system can help him recover.
[EDIT] Spelling
Last year was a sign of a horrible coaching staff (with no clue) trying to fix one problem without understanding the consequences of their "fix". The problem was all the sacks. The idea was having most of the passing plays set up to get the ball out of Carr's hands fast. The problem that created is teams learned in the preseason that the Texans weren't going deep often so they just played goalline pass defense. Why is it so difficult to score in the redzone? Because the field shrinks. Just like the Run N Shoot kept the Oilers' opponents in a 3rd & long defense (making many D coordinators very happy) we created a situation favorable to the defense. It was really frustrating to watch.
Bottom line is I feel coaching and scheme destroyed Carr and can only hope that Kubiak and the new system can help him recover.
[EDIT] Spelling
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
When the team is in the game, I think he can be a fiery competitor. I always think about the Jags game a few years ago (2 years ago????) when he went over the top on 4th down to score the TD. I thought that he had arrived as a QB at that point.
From what I've gathered, the offense was changed to protect him from sacks (didn't work) and the team never bought in. The coaches micro-managed him and IMO, he just went through the motions.
Can't say I blame him. If you know your boss is an idiot, you just do what is expected of you and little else.
From what I've gathered, the offense was changed to protect him from sacks (didn't work) and the team never bought in. The coaches micro-managed him and IMO, he just went through the motions.
Can't say I blame him. If you know your boss is an idiot, you just do what is expected of you and little else.
Exascor said:
When I heard that, I knew this team was doomed. Ask any other coach, and they'll have worked on moving the pocket, more plays with a fullback, two tightends, more pitches to the tailback, they'd have had a number of options.
But we came out with the one, and then David(really, I'm trying to stop) didn't seem to understand the ball has to be out of his hands regardless if the reciever is covered or not. If we are going to pick up 3-5 yards and give up no sacks, then defenses aren't going to be so stoked about blitzing on every down. If there is a high percentage for us to lose 5 yards compared to us picking up 5 yards on every down, then HECK yeah I'm blitzing on every down.
TwinSisters
Veteran
texan279 said:
Agree. ( although I don't think this draft is going to go away anytime soon )
as to the Sky hypothesis
Technically the sky does not have color, color is in your brain. So if the sky is not blue, it can be whatever color you want it to be.
see the sound of a tree falling in an empty forest play.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
TwinSisters said:Agree. ( although I don't think this draft is going to go away anytime soon )
as to the Sky hypothesis
Technically the sky does not have color, color is in your brain. So if the sky is not blue, it can be whatever color you want it to be.
see the sound of a tree falling in an empty forest play.
Color is simply a reflection of light. In total darkness, everything is the same color.
R
real
Guest
thegr8fan said:what color would the sky be if it wasn't blue?
Just thought I would add another totally irrelavent hypothetical nonsensical question I always wanted the answer to, since this seems to be the thread for it.
lol..hey but if u don't like the thread why waste time with a response
TwinSisters
Veteran
Kaiser Toro said:
Do rocks have colour on the darkside of the moon, if nothing can see it? For color to exist you have to have an eyeball and a brain to induce it ( or just a brain to conceptualize it from previous feeds from an eyeball ). Light is merely light. Your eyeball and brain make up the color part. If you had gamma ray eyeballs you could not see the monitor that sits in front of you... just as you cannot see the radio light in front of you because you do not have radio eyeballs.
WOOT! the offseason rules!
EDIT: See John Locke or Austin's own Elisabet Ney ( that leads back to John Locke
)
S
SESupergenius
Guest
It's not just Carr necessarily, but the previous coaching staff tried to put a bandaid on the LT situation ever since Boselli was part of this team. Boselli's status was in limbo for almost 2 years and we didn't address the LT because of that, and that retared the progress of Carr and the offense.
Texas said:
No, it didn't. The coaching staff won four games in the team's initial year, five in the second and seven in the third. That isn't bad for an expansion team at all. And I don't think Capers got hit with a stupid stick all at once last year. I believe he took the team far, far beyond the limited talent that was available to the team due to its expansion roots. Last year was a total collapse, but it's not the two SB teams this year didn't go through the same thing not too long ago.
I chose "A middle of the road guy like Kerry Collins" based on our vanilla offense of the past four years, boring gameplanning, seemingly lack of ability to make halftime adjustments, and Carr still has some troubling tendencies that were scouted in college.
This year will be his make or break year, IMO. The coaching staff probably feels different and will give him the full benefit of 2-3 years. But myself, if I see the same mistakes he kept making the past couple of seasons, I'll firmly be in the anti-Carr camp.
I don't expect him to have a ProBowl year, BUT, I also don't expect to see 20 self-caused sacks and regular bad decisions during the games.
This year will be his make or break year, IMO. The coaching staff probably feels different and will give him the full benefit of 2-3 years. But myself, if I see the same mistakes he kept making the past couple of seasons, I'll firmly be in the anti-Carr camp.
I don't expect him to have a ProBowl year, BUT, I also don't expect to see 20 self-caused sacks and regular bad decisions during the games.
Exascor
Veteran
Yeah it did. I'm not a Capers basher but you have to look at the compete staff.Bobo said:
Palmer: Was oil to Capers water. They didn't mesh well. Palmer and the entire staff gave Carr too much rope. Carr seemed to let football slide on his priority list. Palmer's system might have been OK without the Capers system being merged into his. It was a mess that got worse instead of better.
Fangio: He held players back with his complex defensive assignments. Guys like Babin and Peek had to worry more about what they were supposed to do rather than just react. The entire system left gaps 10 yards wide for receivers to get open in. Talent could have played a part in it but it was the system/coaching that caused the most problems.
Capers: The guy had a system and refused to stray from it. He tried to find players to fit his system rather than adapt the system to fit the players. A good coach will do both. He was a nice guy and gave the Texans everything he could but he was not a good headcoach. We rarely looked good even when we won games. Our offense never got on track. He was known to be an expert in the 3-4. Turnovers and negative plays were missing each year. Again, talent could have had something to do with it but he picked most of the talent-not Casserly.
If Carr would have had a stable o-line he'd be a different guy imo. Now we can only hope that Kubiak can fix what Palmer & Capers allowed to happen to him. If not, then we wasted the first draft pick this team had. Not that Carr didn't have talent but that his talent was ruined by inept coaching.
Exascor said:
A.) When Capers stayed with the system, people complained. When he strayed from it and made changes, people complained that he wasn't sticking with his system. Hence, that charge has no merit.
B.) Capers was indeed a good head coach. For the umpteenth time, he took a brand new expansion team to four wins, then to five, then to seven. He took a step back last year, but that happened to both SB coaches not long ago.
C.) The Texans didn't look good when they won games because they were a young team still trying to gel! Heck, do you expect them to look like the Steelers who have been around for decades?
D.) The Texans were really bad in TOs last year. The year before, they were 7-9 so no complaints there -- whatever was being done was working pretty well.
E.) Where do you expect to get this so-called OL "talent?" In the expansion draft? Don't make me laugh. You get nothing but players the other teams are willing to get rid of. Free agency? Don't make me guffaw. No major free agents will come to a team that doesn't have a shot to make it to the SB. So the only place you can really build from is the draft, and the jury is still out on the Texans drafts since the most recent process was just the fifth one and the results of the first one or two are just starting to be seen.
F.) Capers and his staff did very well, seeing what they had to choose from. They had nothing but NFL rejects and raw, green rookies to deal with under their tenure and did a pretty darn good job with what they had to work with. They ended up leaving Kubiak with a strong nucleus, with Davis, Carr, D-Rob and AJ. When Capers and Co. came in, they had nothing -- no nucleus whatsoever. They created the nucleus the team has today and instead they get nothing but railroaded. It's pretty easy to point to someone who is gone and lay all the blame at their feet. When a coach goes 2-14, yeah, he deserves some of the blame -- just like he would deserve some of the credit if he had a good season. But I have a real, real hard time when those same folks who give Capers nothing but grief won't give him an ounce of credit for his first three years and the nucleus he created. Folks like that are very, very disingenuous as far as I'm concerned.
.) Capers and his staff did very well, seeing what they had to choose from. They had nothing but NFL rejects and raw, green rookies to deal with under their tenure and did a pretty darn good job with what they had to work with. They ended up leaving Kubiak with a strong nucleus, with Davis, Carr, D-Rob and AJ. When Capers and Co. came in, they had nothing -- no nucleus whatsoever. They created the nucleus the team has today and instead they get nothing but railroaded. It's pretty easy to point to someone who is gone and lay all the blame at their feet. When a coach goes 2-14, yeah, he deserves some of the blame -- just like he would deserve some of the credit if he had a good season. But I have a real, real hard time when those same folks who give Capers nothing but grief won't give him an ounce of credit for his first three years and the nucleus he created. Folks like that are very, very disingenuous as far as I'm concerned.
Please answer the following:
1) If Capers was such a good HC, why didn't he get one of the 9 HC openings? Why was he not even sought after as a DC or even position coach?
2) If Caper's AC's did such a great job, why are most of them on the unemployment line?
3) What nucleus? What part of Caper's previous team was so successful it is not being changed? OL/DL/DB/DE/LB/RB/TE/WR----where's the nucleus?
4) Only 1 HC led his team to disasterous 4th years by an expansion team and both were Coached by Capers!...every other expansion team made the playoffs by year 4 except the Texans.
Bobo, you don't give one single fact of why Capers is a good HC--c'mon, give us one, just one fact--all your'e doing is spitting out opinions. Finally, how many NFL teams would not have fired Capers after the 4th year?
Please answer the following:
1) If Capers was such a good HC, why didn't he get one of the 9 HC openings? Why was he not even sought after as a DC or even position coach?
2) If Caper's AC's did such a great job, why are most of them on the unemployment line?
3) What nucleus? What part of Caper's previous team was so successful it is not being changed? OL/DL/DB/DE/LB/RB/TE/WR----where's the nucleus?
4) Only 1 HC led his team to disasterous 4th years by an expansion team and both were Coached by Capers!...every other expansion team made the playoffs by year 4 except the Texans.
Bobo, you don't give one single fact of why Capers is a good HC--c'mon, give us one, just one fact--all your'e doing is spitting out opinions. Finally, how many NFL teams would not have fired Capers after the 4th year?
El Tejano said:
If you're waiting to see what defense they put on the field, before you decide what formation you're going to put on the field, then you don't deserve to be coaching pop Warner, much less the NFL.
The Offense dictates what they are going to do.
Exascor said:
Isn't that the way it is with all busts?? Who was Tim Couches Coach?? what's he doing now........ I'm asking, because I don't know. Was Shotenheimer(sp) in SanDiego when they drafted Ryan Leaf, or was that Norv?? Who coached Quincy as a rookie?? & of all the coaches that coached Carr, how many are still working??
I mean when has having a bad coach stopped anyone from being labelled a bust??
Capers is the defensive coordinator in Miami.....tsip said:
Again, I think Pendry is the only one not working..... Palmer is in Dallas with Bill Parcells.. I'm not sure about Fangio, but I wouldn't be surprised if he is working somewhere too.tsip said:
Going to a 4-3 necessatates(sp) some new personnel..... but that core is still there..... TJ, Robaire Smith, Babin, Peek......tsip said:
Greenwood, Orr, Polk, are probably going to be around for a while. Either Earl or CC Brown are going to have a long carreer in the league. quite a few on this team.......(not both, but one of them will be on this team for a long time). Dunta is a Texan, and will be for a long while..... Buchannon I'm hoping will save some face, and play like we know he can.
Of course offensively, you have Pitts, Mckinney, Wand, Weary & I think Hogdon has a future with this team. AJ, Armstrong, & Mathis...... DD, Morency. Carr, Ragone........
Yeah that's kinda wierd how that 4 year thing works.....tsip said:
Why did we fire Capers?? was it because we were 30 out of 32 on offense?? or 31 out of 32 on Defense??tsip said:
Or was it because we couldn't keep defensive linemen from making out with Carr??
I agree, there were some questionable calls..... Giving up a whole draft(darn near) for Babin...... giving up a second for Buchannon.... Hollings.......
but some, like that Henson thing is worked out like we thought. DD....
But like Bobo said...... that happens all the time, with all teams..... Kordell?? Rikki Williams?? Claurette?? Heck, the Titans are rebuilding again...... more than likely they will drag the rear of the AFC South in '06..... Philly was in the cellar of the NFC East...... Tampa wasted time and money on Keyshawn..... Joey Galloway in Dallas.
Capers isn't the only coach who misses in the draft, or takes a chance on a veteran FA, when he should have passed...... or overpayed for a talent that needed the right circumstances to succeed.
Granted, most fans didn't appreciate his cautious football philosophy, but as Bobo pointed out... that philosophy has won SuperBowls.
But Carr is the key...... I have no doubt that he'll have a great year in '06. But if he bombs in '07, we should all understand McNair is MicroManaging certain decisions.
tsip said:
1.) Capers was indeed up for one of the HC positions, I believe it was Detroit. There were lots of good HCs who didn't get positions this year -- Wade Phillips for one. But I wouldn't be surprised to see Capers as a head coach in the NFL again some day. He had three good years in Houston -- folks will remember that.
2.) Someone else answered this question -- most are employed.
3.) I told you what the nucleus was. There are a lot of guys who have NOT been let go and will still contribute this year, besides THE NUCLEUS that he left behind -- Carr, Davis, Robinson, AJ, Faggins and others.
4.) Saying that every expansion HC got to the playoffs by their fourth year is a misnomer. The year the Browns got in there were three wildcards and three divisional champs. Now there are four division champs and only two WCs. There was no way the Texans were going to get in the playoffs, even if they matched the Browns 9-7 record. So enough of that misnomer. Besides, there have been a lot of expansion teams (Bucs, Seahawks, Saints, etc.) who did NOT make the playoffs in their fourth year. I point out the Cincy Bengals as an example. They started in 1968 under Paul Brown with a 3-11 record. Then they went to 4-9-1. The next year, 8-6. Then they dropped down to 4-10. If he was coaching the Texans, they would have fired him. But the next year, he took them to 8-6. Then after that --10-4 and the divisional championship. Of course, you forget to acknowledge who led his team to the best inaugural record ever by an expansion team. And this guy isn't a good HC? Yeah, right. Sure.
5.) I have given you fact after fact ad infiniteum about what Capers did as far as win totals go from day one with this franchise. You don't call four wins, five wins and then seven wins facts? What were those victories, just mirages? Your criticisms regarding Capers are surrounded in myths, legends and are totally unfair and unfounded -- and certainly NOT based on the total picture.
http://www.miamidolphins.com/lockerroom/coachingstaff/coachingstaff.asp
Capers is not the DC in Miami!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is 1 of 3 Special Asst to the HC (token job) and is the only SA not assigned a task. And, c'mon guys, where are last yrs asst coaches working this year?...names/teams?????
Capers is not the DC in Miami!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is 1 of 3 Special Asst to the HC (token job) and is the only SA not assigned a task. And, c'mon guys, where are last yrs asst coaches working this year?...names/teams?????
Exascor
Veteran
People complain about everything. What does "people complaining" have anything to do with Capers' performance? Capers failed to adjust his system to best utilize his talent. That was a failure.Bobo said:
Capers was given a free pass for the first 3 years. All the problems that creeped up each year were tied to reasons like "young team", "lack of talent" and any other excuse we could come up with. The problem is that the team looked horrible in year 4. We're not talking about the Steelers having a poor season here. We are talking about a team that had no discipline and looked lost even when they won. It was rough to watch because it seemed like the team didn't believe that they could win. The team was the worst NFL team I've ever watched...ever. The talent wasn't great but the system was a joke. The system caused most of the loses not the lack of talent. That's the coaches fault. For all 4 years we were unable to maintain leads at halftime. Capers would make adjustments that didn't work and the opposing coach always seemed to make the right calls. Poor coaching.Bobo said:
So why stop if it worked so well (which it didn't)? Capers was lost last season. He lost the team and it showed up in the preseason. Many of us blindly thought it wasn't going to carry on in the regular season. I will admit I was very wrong about that.Bobo said:
I'd hate to make you laugh of guffaw. I actually agree that little more could have been done to get good players for the o-line. There were some moves that killed our 2nd and 3rd round picks though to get players that Capers wanted (Babin, Buchanon...) that could have been used to address the line. The offensive system was horrible and created some of the o-line problems. Wand started during the 7-9 season and lost his job to Riley. That's good coaching?Bobo said:
Yeah I agree with you here. I like Capers and respected everything he did for the first 3 years. Year 4 should have been different than it ended up. Capers may not have been the main reason for the horrible year we had. I blame Fangio 1st and the horrible Palmer/Capers hybrid offense. Capers was ultimately responsible for his staff. His defenses should have been dominant but were soft. That was Capers responsibility and he failed. I was sad to see him go but it was time to make a clean start.Bobo said:
Exascor
Veteran
If Carr fails in the next year or 2 he WILL be a bust. There are different reasons for a being a bust though. Leaf was a problem case. Laurence Phillips was a criminal. Kijana Carter was injury prone. Harrington just wasn't worth the #3 pick. Couch was overrated but also thrown to the wolves too early like Carr. 1st Year Expansion Team + Rookie QB = Bad Ideathunderkyss said:
Carr is still hanging on but only by a thread called Kubiak. Palmer/Capers let Carr walk all over them. He was the "franchise" so they seemed almost scared of him. Notice that Kubiak talked to Carr and Carr is now more focused on football? He's practicing more in the offseason and watching more film. That's good coaching.