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A Thought for all the Anti Vince people

swtbound07

swtbound07

Jackass of Day!
Just an honest question. Most of the mock drafts i viewed last year had aaron rodgers not going anywhere higher than 10, when several teams had qb needs, and he and alex smith were the only 2 legitimate first round prospects (at qb, matt jones is something else). He fell to pick 26 i believe...dont quote me on the number. My point is this: with the jets, saints, raiders, and dolphins all rumored to be addressing their qb needs through free agency, and Vince's free fall post combine, hypothetically, I could see Vince Young lasting until the 1st pick of the 2nd round, With leinart going to tennessee, and cutler going to the lions...and nobody else with a pressing need for a qb as a first round pick. All of you people who think vince young isnt worth our pick, cant play in the NFL, david carr is the truth, etc. Would you take vince young in the 2nd round? Why or why not?
 
I'm going to answer this like this. If Kubiak chooses Carr to be our QB, then it's a wasted pick in round 2. With that in mind, there is no way Young will fall out of the 1st round. The talent level between Young and Rodgers is quite large.
 
its not a question of talent in my mind, its a question of musical chairs. Assuming teams dont double stack at the qb position, i find it hard to find a place that needs a qb 1st round bad, and 3 qb's that grade out extremely high (leinart, cutler, young)

Tennessee, detroit. both lack for qb's, mcnair is aging, and harrington is a bust

new orleans seems to be going for brees, oakland for culpepper. Shrugs...i could see it happening
 
Second round? Strictly for arguments sake?

I would think about it. My biggest beef with drafting Young is that we drop that #1 pick and foolish #1 salary on him, with Carr already in place. Just bad business, no how matter how you want to dice it.

I still think we can use the #2 better elsewhere, but were it feasible that Young drop to Round 2 (without some *big* bomb coming out of nowhere that many of us probably wouldn't be prepared to deal with, I am talking Marcus Vick type stupidity) ... were it feasible? I would give it a lot of thought.
 
just FYI... the deal with Culpepper to Oakland fell through.. he is most likely going to Miami.


*edit* I also think that young is going to be a bust.. he may eventually be able to hack it as an average NFL QB..but I dont see him ever beeing a really good one..let alone a great one. So no..I wouldnt want him in the second either.
 
Grid said:
*edit* I also think that young is going to be a bust.. he may eventually be able to hack it as an average NFL QB..but I dont see him ever beeing a really good one..let alone a great one.
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Oh how the mighty have fallen. :wow:
 
It would still depend on what we addressed in the 1st round with our pick/s. If we addressed a need or two and he did happen to be available in the 2nd round, sure he could be worth it then... only if he fell that far for my liking though :twocents:
 
I would without a doubt take him I guess it depends on who else falls out of the first round like Winston. But even if Kubiak has no doubt in his mind that Carr is his guy I would still take young and at least trade for a first round pick in next years draft to a team that needs a QB.
 
my problem would be if we somehow got vince in the 2nd round...the "fans" would be clammering for vince on every incompletion...not to mention a pick..every sack..i can hear the guy that sits next to me now..."put dat boy vince in der"... for 3 years he has said "put dat boy banks in der...carr garbage".....i wouldn't be able to take it
 
I can't imagine Vince falling that far, but...

To answer your question - No, we've got other positions that need addressing - Like a bonafide two-way (BLOCK & CATCH) TE, another quality DB, OL, we just cut our starting FS, etc. - Get a relatively 'polished' product prepared for the NFL system.

If he fell to the THIRD round, I'd say yes, because he's simply a phenomenal ATHLETE if nothing else and we could FIND some way to utilize his physical gifts.

:twocents: When you only show up at the combine ONLY to interview & take tests, it makes sense that you'd prepare for those TWO items. His "free-fall" was precipitated by making ONE bad choice...NOT a test answer, NOT an "everybody in a suit but me" White House appearance, but an inept agent!

"Real" agents came calling, but Vince's "loyalty" is already biting him in the rear on THIS decision.
 
No way Young falls out of the top 10. He is a better prospect than Steve McNair was coming out of Alcorn St.
 
Nothing has happened to affect his football playing ability in the last several weeks - aside from working with Jerry Rhome which can't hurt - so I don't quite understand all the hysteria. Vince will be a high first rounder and his toolset puts him in the category of a new and improved version of Steve McNair.
 
swtbound07 said:
Just an honest question. Most of the mock drafts i viewed last year had aaron rodgers not going anywhere higher than 10, when several teams had qb needs, and he and alex smith were the only 2 legitimate first round prospects (at qb, matt jones is something else). He fell to pick 26 i believe...dont quote me on the number. My point is this: with the jets, saints, raiders, and dolphins all rumored to be addressing their qb needs through free agency, and Vince's free fall post combine, hypothetically, I could see Vince Young lasting until the 1st pick of the 2nd round, With leinart going to tennessee, and cutler going to the lions...and nobody else with a pressing need for a qb as a first round pick. All of you people who think vince young isnt worth our pick, cant play in the NFL, david carr is the truth, etc. Would you take vince young in the 2nd round? Why or why not?
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No, for one I think Vince would still go in the 1st, right now I'm thinking to the Cardinals at #10 (if Saints sign Drew Brees and Jets sign Patrick Ramsey after renegotiating Pennington, then Titans draft Matt Leinart, the Raiders draft Jay Cutler, Mike Martz won't try to bring Vince to the Lions to run his offense, then I think Dennis Green will take Vince and sit him behind Kurt Warner for the two years left on his contract) . If Vince does somehow fall to #33, it's because every team in the league sees pretty significant deficiencies in his passing game. If a QB of his size and athleticism (that, according to many people, is supposed to be worth considering at #1 overall) falls that far, then there must be several problems with his game to the extent where none of the teams in this league see him being good enough to be worth taking that risk.

I also think we have enough other issues on our team that we need to address and at #33 we're going to be able to find a 1st round quality player at one of those positions, so I would definitely want to fill one of those. Now if Vince somehow fell to the 3rd round, I'd consider drafting him, but I don't see him falling that far.

Bubbajwp said:
I would without a doubt take him I guess it depends on who else falls out of the first round like Winston. But even if Kubiak has no doubt in his mind that Carr is his guy I would still take young and at least trade for a first round pick in next years draft to a team that needs a QB.
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If every team in the league passes on Vince in the 1st round, I don't see any team giving up next year's 1st round pick for him. I think the only QB the Texans will add this offseason is that veteran backup (I've heard they're bringing in Sage Rosenfels for a workout, and I don't see how he fulfills this role for them, but we'll have to see if he's the guy they decide to add).

Spoda said:
my problem would be if we somehow got vince in the 2nd round...the "fans" would be clammering for vince on every incompletion...not to mention a pick..every sack..i can hear the guy that sits next to me now..."put dat boy vince in der"... for 3 years he has said "put dat boy banks in der...carr garbage".....i wouldn't be able to take it
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I agree, Vince in the 2nd round will still bring all these potential problems with fans in the stadium, at least we wouldn't be using a #1 overall pick on him, but we still put Carr in a situation where the majority of the fans will be against him at his every mistake and constantly scrutinizing every success he has.
 
Texans_Chick said:
And a better prospect than McNabb or Vick.
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I'm not sure I could definitively say he's a better prospect than McNabb or Vick or even McNair, but they also came out in much deeper drafts. I also don't see Vince falling out of the top 10 (I currently have him at #10 to the Cardinals), but I see it as being much more likely with recent apparent developments in the free agency market.
 
I could care less if he falls all the way to the 7th round as long as we dont waste a draft pick on him.

He is not worthy of being a Houston Texan yet..... :stirpot:
 
sheesh, if hes not worthy of being a texan, then i hate to think how unworthy is to be a member of other teams in the league.
 
Spoda said:
my problem would be if we somehow got vince in the 2nd round...the "fans" would be clammering for vince on every incompletion...not to mention a pick..every sack..i can hear the guy that sits next to me now..."put dat boy vince in der"... for 3 years he has said "put dat boy banks in der...carr garbage".....i wouldn't be able to take it
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Better toughen up that hide fella........ with Vince or without, you'll hear it anyway........."put dat boy Ragone in thar... he won the NFL europe championship".........
 
MorKnolle said:
I agree, Vince in the 2nd round will still bring all these potential problems with fans in the stadium, at least we wouldn't be using a #1 overall pick on him, but we still put Carr in a situation where the majority of the fans will be against him at his every mistake and constantly scrutinizing every success he has.
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So we dont pick up competition from carr because he will be forced into fan scrutiny??? Can his ego not take being analyzed? Because as a 1st overall draft pick, a supposed franchise qb, shouldnt be worried about fan scrutiny, that seems implied. Carr is in a situation of his own devices. If Carr was a pro-bowl quarterback, or even a .500 winning percentage caliber quarterback, i doubt we would even be having these discussions. I've tried to be tactfull about this, tried to debate intelligently, but you know what, Im just going to come out and say it. David Carr is a bust. You can preach potential to me all day long, but 2-14, 4-12, 5-11, 7-9, screams BUST to me. 18 wins. 46 losses. I dont care what you think Kubiak can do with him. I dont. Kubiak hasn't proved anything as a head coach. If your telling me, you pass on a phenominally talented player like Vince Young, far lower in the draft then where he should go, simply because the team LEADER couldnt handle the pressure and competition he would bring, then i say you dont have the right man leading your team. Drew Brees stepped up and turned it on when they drafted phillip rivers.
 
MorKnolle said:
I'm not sure I could definitively say he's a better prospect than McNabb or Vick or even McNair, but they also came out in much deeper drafts. I also don't see Vince falling out of the top 10 (I currently have him at #10 to the Cardinals), but I see it as being much more likely with recent apparent developments in the free agency market.
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Hmmm....I don't know McNair's college stats but they would be hard to properly compare anyways because of the college competition, however, though these stats aren't perfect, looking prospect to prospect, I think that VY compares very favorably to Vick and McNabb as a prospect (not to mention the intangibles of the championship and competitiveness).

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Mike Vick (last college season), Drafted 1st, 6’0”, 214 lbs

1439 passing yards
54.19 completion percentage
179 attempts for 97 completions, 8.0 av yards per attempt
9 passing TDs with 7 INTs
113 rushes for 636 yards, 5.6 av yards per attempt, 9 rushing TDs

Donovan McNabb (last college season): Drafted 2nd, 6’’2” 240 lbs

2326 passing yards
60.85 completion percentage
281 attempts for 171 completions, 8.3 av yards per attempt
23 passing TDs with 6 INTs
155 rushes for 510 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 8 rushing TDs


As for the draft depth, it is hard to really say how deep this draft is other than saying that the Vick draft was a really weak QB draft, and though the McNabb draft was deep with QBs, some teams picked wrong that year. Like Cincinnati and Cleveland (though I guess the argument can be made that they went to worse situations than McNabb did and never reallly had a good chance to succeed):

Akili Smith (last college season), Drafted 3rd, 6’3”, 220 lbs

3763 passing yards
57.95 completion percentage
371 attempts for 215 completion , 10.1 av yards per attempt
32 passing TDs with 9 INTs
82 rushes for 184 yards, 2.2 av yards per attempt, 4 rushing TDs

Tim Couch (last college season), Drafted 1st, 6'4", 220 lbs

4611 passing yards
71.54 completion percentage
601 attempts for 430 completions, 7.7 av yards per attempt
38 passing TDs with 17 INTs
74 rushes for -116 yards, -1.5 av yards per attempt, 1 rushing TD


I can understand why people might not want the Texans to take VY, but I don't understand why people think that VY should plummet in this draft given that his QB stats kick most college QBs stats, even of the players who ended up having remarkable pro careers, and VY's college career was beyond remarkable.
 
Greetings all....

Gentlemen, we are starting to see you sweat. And believe me, we have been watching......

You all know very well that VY is in know way, shape, or form, going to fall out of the very top two players upon draft day. Just what on earth will it take for you naysayers to finally stop playing your mind games upon this website?

Well, please allow me the opportunity to take the liberty to land you all a chance to get some sleep tonight........

......go ahead and whisper now.....very softly please.......close your eyes now.......and repeat after me......

Vince is coming home......Vince is coming home......GLORY HALLELUJAH, Vince is coming home.....
MONARCH
 
Texans_Chick said:
Hmmm....I don't know McNair's college stats but they would be hard to properly compare anyways because of the college competition, however, though these stats aren't perfect, looking prospect to prospect, I think that VY compares very favorably to Vick and McNabb as a prospect (not to mention the intangibles of the championship and competitiveness).

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Mike Vick (last college season), Drafted 1st, 6’0”, 214 lbs

1439 passing yards
54.19 completion percentage
179 attempts for 97 completions, 8.0 av yards per attempt
9 passing TDs with 7 INTs
113 rushes for 636 yards, 5.6 av yards per attempt, 9 rushing TDs

Donovan McNabb (last college season): Drafted 2nd, 6’’2” 240 lbs

2326 passing yards
60.85 completion percentage
281 attempts for 171 completions, 8.3 av yards per attempt
23 passing TDs with 6 INTs
155 rushes for 510 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 8 rushing TDs


As for the draft depth, it is hard to really say how deep this draft is other than saying that the Vick draft was a really weak QB draft, and though the McNabb draft was deep with QBs, some teams picked wrong that year. Like Cincinnati and Cleveland (though I guess the argument can be made that they went to worse situations than McNabb did and never reallly had a good chance to succeed):

Akili Smith (last college season), Drafted 3rd, 6’3”, 220 lbs

3763 passing yards
57.95 completion percentage
371 attempts for 215 completion , 10.1 av yards per attempt
32 passing TDs with 9 INTs
82 rushes for 184 yards, 2.2 av yards per attempt, 4 rushing TDs

Tim Couch (last college season), Drafted 1st, 6'4", 220 lbs

4611 passing yards
71.54 completion percentage
601 attempts for 430 completions, 7.7 av yards per attempt
38 passing TDs with 17 INTs
74 rushes for -116 yards, -1.5 av yards per attempt, 1 rushing TD


I can understand why people might not want the Texans to take VY, but I don't understand why people think that VY should plummet in this draft given that his QB stats kick most college QBs stats, even of the players who ended up having remarkable pro careers, and VY's college career was beyond remarkable.
Click to expand...

Thanks for bringing up these stats again, haven't they been posted enough on this board already?
 
MONARCH said:
Greetings all....

Gentlemen, we are starting to see you sweat. And believe me, we have been watching......

You all know very well that VY is in know way, shape, or form, going to fall out of the very top two players upon draft day. Just what on earth will it take for you naysayers to finally stop playing your mind games upon this website?

Well, please allow me the opportunity to take the liberty to land you all a chance to get some sleep tonight........

......go ahead and whisper now.....very softly please.......close your eyes now.......and repeat after me......

Vince is coming home......Vince is coming home......GLORY HALLELUJAH, Vince is coming home.....
MONARCH
Click to expand...

As I said before, seven weeks left to come to grips with the fact that Vince isn't coming here. 99% of the people in this country now realize it, come join the enlightened side.
 
Texans_Chick said:
Hmmm....I don't know McNair's college stats but they would be hard to properly compare anyways because of the college competition, however, though these stats aren't perfect, looking prospect to prospect, I think that VY compares very favorably to Vick and McNabb as a prospect (not to mention the intangibles of the championship and competitiveness).

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Mike Vick (last college season), Drafted 1st, 6’0”, 214 lbs

1439 passing yards
54.19 completion percentage
179 attempts for 97 completions, 8.0 av yards per attempt
9 passing TDs with 7 INTs
113 rushes for 636 yards, 5.6 av yards per attempt, 9 rushing TDs

Donovan McNabb (last college season): Drafted 2nd, 6’’2” 240 lbs

2326 passing yards
60.85 completion percentage
281 attempts for 171 completions, 8.3 av yards per attempt
23 passing TDs with 6 INTs
155 rushes for 510 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 8 rushing TDs


As for the draft depth, it is hard to really say how deep this draft is other than saying that the Vick draft was a really weak QB draft, and though the McNabb draft was deep with QBs, some teams picked wrong that year. Like Cincinnati and Cleveland (though I guess the argument can be made that they went to worse situations than McNabb did and never reallly had a good chance to succeed):

Akili Smith (last college season), Drafted 3rd, 6’3”, 220 lbs

3763 passing yards
57.95 completion percentage
371 attempts for 215 completion , 10.1 av yards per attempt
32 passing TDs with 9 INTs
82 rushes for 184 yards, 2.2 av yards per attempt, 4 rushing TDs

Tim Couch (last college season), Drafted 1st, 6'4", 220 lbs

4611 passing yards
71.54 completion percentage
601 attempts for 430 completions, 7.7 av yards per attempt
38 passing TDs with 17 INTs
74 rushes for -116 yards, -1.5 av yards per attempt, 1 rushing TD


I can understand why people might not want the Texans to take VY, but I don't understand why people think that VY should plummet in this draft given that his QB stats kick most college QBs stats, even of the players who ended up having remarkable pro careers, and VY's college career was beyond remarkable.
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Since you have posted this several times, I will post my counter argument again.


Look at the respective talent surrounding all of those players. Vince had by far the best talent around him.
 
tulexan said:
Since you have posted this several times, I will post my counter argument again.


Look at the respective talent surrounding all of those players. Vince had by far the best talent around him.
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So putting him on a team with NFL talent should work out okay, right?
 
MorKnolle said:
Thanks for bringing up these stats again, haven't they been posted enough on this board already?
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I guess not given that you in particular keep making blanket unsubstantiated statements. If people keep making statements that are not evidence based, then I will just keep bringing up the facts.

BTW, I hadn't posted the Tim Couch stat before.
 
tulexan said:
Since you have posted this several times, I will post my counter argument again.


Look at the respective talent surrounding all of those players. Vince had by far the best talent around him.
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And I will just point that out again as the beyondo weak argument it is.

Better players around you usually means facing better quality opposition. Worse players around you usually means that you faced lower quality opposition and/or didn't win against quality opponents. So is Lienart a bad QB because he had the best talent around him??? Is Cutler less talented because he didn't have quality coaching, had to be more of a gamemaker himself and didn't beat quality opponents?? You can make the arguments go every which away if you just don't want to accept the stats on their face.

Theoretically, being surrounded by a better athletes might mean that VY's stats are actually artificially low because he had to be pulled out of games faster and the RBs got more work early in games because the games got out of hand.

So much for good stats = good athletes around you, cuz that just doesn't follow.

Before the last season started, people thought that VY's passing numbers would plummet after his experienced receivers left and they were gonna be using a bunch of baby receivers. And he managed to make do, and now people are talking about this great talent when before the season they were talking about the inexperienced receiving corp.

If you want to knock a guy, you can come up with all sorts of reasons why they aint gonna be too good....

VY and Lienart--too much talent around them
Culpepper and McNair--Did well against poor college competition and inexperience in pro-style offense


I think there is a lot of overthinking going on and hyperanalysis.

VY has great stats, is a gamer and winner.
The facts say it and your eyes say it and the record says it.
He has done things that previous college QBs have not been able to do with such size and skill sets.
Maybe this suggests that the guy can just flat out play ball. Plain and simple. Why resist it? Why overanalyze it? Sometimes the thing that looks too good to be true is actually TRUE and not an illusion, you know what I'm sayin?

Maybe you can go into hyperflexive anti-VY mode as just a reaction to the hype and hyperbole that has been going on the other way, but it shouldn't cause you to overcompensate with your critiques.

I just bring up the actual facts to try to keep things reality based when people get a little loose with their opinions. I guess I'll keep posting them as long as people keep saying unsupported opinions.
 
Well obviously Vince isn't this once in a lifetime, too good to pass up talent who is going to revolutionize the game. If he was, his stock wouldn't be dropping like Enron in 2001.

And no, there isn't a grand conspiracy against Vince because the media hates Texas, or they are upset that Texas beat USC, or he is black, or any other outrageous claim some people on this message board are claiming.

Vince is a great player. He will probably be a good player several years from now once he sits, learns, and adapts his game to the NFL. The reason why he isn't a much better prospect than Vick or McNabb is because they were raw players too, but he is much more raw then they are. They also have much better mechanics than he do. Vince has a lot of potential, but also has a lot of risks. He could be a great player, he could be a perennial pro bowler, but he also could be an average QB or dare I say, a bust. Unbelievable, once in a life time prospects, aren't supposed to have more questions than positive notes about their game.

And surrounding talent is a major factor in a player's performance. I don't think that Vick or McNabb had the all world OL that Vince Young did. Neither team had the top ranked defense too. There is zero parity in the college game. You can and usually do, have teams that are bigger, faster, and stronger than their opponents (especially the Big 12 this year). Are you telling me that it isn't an advantage having a big WR who can literally jump over people for jump balls (like Texas had), or a great TE who can out muscle defenders and had great hands (like Texas had), or a stable of good RBs who are a threat during play actions (like Texas had and ran all the time), or an OL who will consistently give the QB 6, 7, and 8 seconds to decide what to do (like Texas had), or having a great defense that will give the offense great field position all of the time (like Texas had).

I'm not saying that McNabb and Vick had a bunch of scrubs around them, because both had some talented players on their teams, but there is a major difference in Texas getting a bunch of 5 star rated players every recruiting class and the rest being 4 star players and the occasional 3 star, and Virginia Tech being lucky to get one 5 star, and the rest being 4 star and below. I doubt that Syracuse had any 5 star players and was probably lucky to get a few 4 star players.

If you don't recognize that having a great supporting cast that is much better than the opponent's talent 90% of the time will greatly affect the performance and statistics of a QB then you are being delusional and blindly following Vince Young. But I know that you must be smarter than that and do recognize the affect that talent has on a team's performance in the college level.
 
tulexan said:
Well obviously Vince isn't this once in a lifetime, too good to pass up talent who is going to revolutionize the game. If he was, his stock wouldn't be dropping like Enron in 2001.
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Who said it was? When he declared, most projected him at third overall. Many still project him there, and almost all mocks still have him top five. If there's a drop at all, it's an ever so slight drop, certainly not Enron in 2001. That's called hyperbole... or bias.
 
VY falling to the 2nd round is just not possible IMO. While I don't see him going to the Titans like most people do (he'll slip down a little), there's just no way he falls to the 2nd round. Even as a pure freak of an athlete, he's a 1st rounder. Look at Matt Jones. And if he does fall there, we do pick this
 
Texans_Chick said:
And I will just point that out again as the beyondo weak argument it is.

Better players around you usually means facing better quality opposition. Worse players around you usually means that you faced lower quality opposition...
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I think I understand what you are saying here, but IMO you have overstated it so that this is off the mark. It is one thing to say McNair was not surrounded at Alcorn with great talent, but then again the talent he was playing against was not as high as what Vince Young faced. Correct me if I'm wrong but that is basically what you are getting at. Problem is it doesn't work for someone like say Reggie McNeal who definitely had less talent around him than VY, but played the same opposition as VY. In fact you could say McNeil played tougher competition because he had to face UT's D, while VY had to face A&M's D.

So much for good stats = good athletes around you, cuz that just doesn't follow.
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You're right that there is no direct correlation to good stats equalling good athletes around you. On the other hand, it is
"beyondo weak" to act as if the surrounding context doesn't contribute to a player's success. The same RB will do better or worse depending on the quality of his OL. Every time you here a discussion of Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith it is noted that Sanders' accomplishments were behind a poor OL and Emmitt's were behind a great OL. For all VY's skill and leadership he wouldn't be the winner he is without a fantastic OL described as one of the top 2 in the country and a top D. That really is beyond refute and doesn't take anything at all away from VY. It is a team sport--if other parts of the team don't do as well, the team doesn't do as well. Looking at the team around a player is common sense.
 
tulexan said:
Since you have posted this several times, I will post my counter argument again.


Look at the respective talent surrounding all of those players. Vince had by far the best talent around him.
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Look at the respective talent that Leinart and Bush have been surrounded with.

Has that been stopping all the Bush supporters from pointing out the number of 25+ yard plays, his yards per carry average, his all-purpose yards, etc.?

Can't have it both ways.
 
why are you guys discussing VY. The guy is not coming here and will not come here till his plane lands or his new bentley drives him into the city limits from whatever team he lands with. Likely Oakland or Arizona. Dennis Green will have flashbacks of Randall Cunningham with this kid in two years.
 
Coach C. said:
why are you guys discussing VY. The guy is not coming here and will not come here till his plane lands or his new bentley drives him into the city limits from whatever team he lands with. Likely Oakland or Arizona. Dennis Green will have flashbacks of Randall Cunningham with this kid in two years.
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I hate to beat the dead horse that is my pet peeve, but what the heck do you know? Absolutely nothing more or less than the rest of us. You have no idea what the texans will or wont do. You dont work for them, and from everything we hear they have far from made up their minds. If you really had a handle on what was going on inside the organization, how come you werent touting the weaver signing weeks ago? Just stop speaking in absolutes about something that we really dont have a definitive answer about.
 
Turp007 said:
AJ and D. Robinson are the only draft pick's that have been of value and they were a for sure can't miss draft pick, still not the caliber of V. Young but legit draft picks.
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Are you kidding me? You need to lay off the booze and drugs. You need a reality check and get off of this Vince Young is God crap...
 
turp and monarch are the "are you crazy of course you draft Young!!!" new blood infusion that we need around here ... thunderkyss and big b 1 were starting to lose some momentum ...
 
Huge said:
Look at the respective talent that Leinart and Bush have been surrounded with.

Has that been stopping all the Bush supporters from pointing out the number of 25+ yard plays, his yards per carry average, his all-purpose yards, etc.?

Can't have it both ways.
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You're right, they TOO were "surrounded" by talent on the Offensive side of the ball. Though more SKILL positions were stars in the USC system, whereas UT had a better LINE.

Despite that commonality....I don't hear many people claiming that Lineart is a "once in a lifetime" talent (despite a Heisman, despite playing for at least 1/2 a National Championship 3 years in a row). Nor do most think that Bush is ready to step in and take the full load away from DD yet.
 
infantrycak said:
I think I understand what you are saying here, but IMO you have overstated it so that this is off the mark. It is one thing to say McNair was not surrounded at Alcorn with great talent, but then again the talent he was playing against was not as high as what Vince Young faced. Correct me if I'm wrong but that is basically what you are getting at. Problem is it doesn't work for someone like say Reggie McNeal who definitely had less talent around him than VY, but played the same opposition as VY. In fact you could say McNeil played tougher competition because he had to face UT's D, while VY had to face A&M's D.



You're right that there is no direct correlation to good stats equalling good athletes around you. On the other hand, it is
"beyondo weak" to act as if the surrounding context doesn't contribute to a player's success. The same RB will do better or worse depending on the quality of his OL. Every time you here a discussion of Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith it is noted that Sanders' accomplishments were behind a poor OL and Emmitt's were behind a great OL. For all VY's skill and leadership he wouldn't be the winner he is without a fantastic OL described as one of the top 2 in the country and a top D. That really is beyond refute and doesn't take anything at all away from VY. It is a team sport--if other parts of the team don't do as well, the team doesn't do as well. Looking at the team around a player is common sense.
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Certainly the context of the players around a player matter, but to just to completely dismiss VYs astounding stats by just saying he has the best players around him is just weak, and that is all I was really intending to say.

I was just making the point that you can spin things anyway you want to if your intent is to slam a player. I just find it funny that people that would otherwise pay attention to various stats choose to completely ignore some pretty sick ones just because they don't suit their point of view.

Chris Simms had some pretty good teammates around him and these are his final year stats:

Chris Simms (last college season) drafted 3rd round, 6'4", 220 lbs

3207 passing yards
59.3 percent completion percentage
396 attempts, 235 completions, 8.1 yards per attempt
26 TDs, 12 INTs
70 rushes for -124 yards, -1.8 yard average, 4 TDs


And as it is a team game, and people keep on bringing up Texas' line, though the line was pretty good, it is also possible that a QB with VY's skill set made that line look better. Hard to all-out rush when you have to contain a guy who can get in the secondary as fast as VY can.

Personally, I do not think the Texans will take VY. But this is not to say that he isn't a remarkable prospect, and looking at his college stats, size and skill sets, it is really hard to compare him to anyone else. Whatever the draft boards say.

Personally, I find it amazing to see how much better VY's college stats were over other college QBs who were drafted high in previous drafts. Even though he was out of the 4th quarter of a lot of games.

Maybe I am just easy to impress or something.
 
disaacks3 said:
Despite that commonality....I don't hear many people claiming that Lineart is a "once in a lifetime" talent (despite a Heisman, despite playing for at least 1/2 a National Championship 3 years in a row).
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Because Leinart is a traditional pocket passer and doesn't have the gaudy running stats to go along with the solid passing stats. Carson Palmer, Part II. Not bad.
 
swtbound07 said:
You have no idea what the texans will or wont do. You dont work for them, and from everything we hear they have far from made up their minds.
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Coach is obviously right on the money with these comments. My question is, why do you and your UT pals keep deluding your thoughts with these false hope about VY landing in Houston ?
 
nunusguy said:
Coach is obviously right on the money with these comments. My question is, why do you and your UT pals keep deluding your thoughts with these false hope about VY landing in Houston ?
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I don't think that VY will fall to the second round, nor do I think that the Texans will be choosing him, but really nobody knows.
 
nunusguy said:
Coach is obviously right on the money with these comments. My question is, why do you and your UT pals keep deluding your thoughts with these false hope about VY landing in Houston ?
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Im not a UT homer...i say much the same thing to anybody speaking of any player as an absolute, from reggie to vince to dbrick. He's not on the money with anything, he's just guessing like the rest of us. Its an unknown, why bash somebody for what they think will happen? Its all 50/50, and his opinion is no more valid than mine.
 
Texans_Chick said:
Certainly the context of the players around a player matter, but to just to completely dismiss VYs astounding stats by just saying he has the best players around him is just weak, and that is all I was really intending to say.
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Absolutely agree VY's stats should not be dismissed.

Because Leinart is a traditional pocket passer and doesn't have the gaudy running stats to go along with the solid passing stats. Carson Palmer, Part II. Not bad.
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See, this is where things start sounding way overhyped for VY IMO. Leinart isn't in consideration because he is Carson Palmer, part II and therefore not bad but (by implication) no VY. Carson Palmer passed for 3800yds last year 38 TD's and a passer rating of 101--one of only two QB's (Manning is the other) with a QB rating over 100. That's way beyond not bad and if folks are having a real discussion of QB's, anyone who could be as not bad as Carson Palmer should be in the mix rather than dismissed out of hand.
 
infantrycak said:
Absolutely agree VY's stats should not be dismissed.



See, this is where things start sounding way overhyped for VY IMO. Leinart isn't in consideration because he is Carson Palmer, part II and therefore not bad but (by implication) no VY. Carson Palmer passed for 3800yds last year 38 TD's and a passer rating of 101--one of only two QB's (Manning is the other) with a QB rating over 100. That's way beyond not bad and if folks are having a real discussion of QB's, anyone who could be as not bad as Carson Palmer should be in the mix rather than dismissed out of hand.
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personally i dont think Palmer is a good comparison. Palmer has physical tools Leinart just will never have.

Leinart plays the game a lot like chad pennington. he has great accuracy, makes few mental mistakes. he manages games well and can find the holes. but I dont see the "throw for 300 & 4td's" aspect in him like in brady or palmer. that comparison isnt a knock though because pennington is a great qb.
 
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