http://www.chron.com/sports/texans/...zzo-John-Butler-12467354.php?ipid=hpsportsctp
No big shockers here.
No big shockers here.
Keep Texans Talk Google Ad Free!
Venmo Tip Jar | Paypal Tip Jar
Thanks for your support! 🍺😎👍
2018 Front office changes
- Thread starter disaacks3
- Start date
No Devlin on the list?
Mangler
Toro de España
Nope. According to O’Brien, Devlin is a “great offensive line” coach. Maybe he is, who really knows.
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
Yeah, there really wasn't a whole lot he could do given the players he had to work with.
I'm sure I dunno either. What little expertise I might have it sure doesn't include evaluating the competence level of offense line coachs.
I do know one thing about Texans' Oline coachs - we for sure had atleast one very good one, maybe one great one and his name was Gibbs.
Last edited:
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
So if Rick is out of the game, who's doing all the firing? OB throwing his own staff to the curb? Or was it Rick's staff that he's getting rid of? Surely the McNair's didn't come to those conclusions that those guys needed to go.
This franchise is so back asswards it's unreal.
This franchise is so back asswards it's unreal.
O'Brien has always had control of his coaching staff. He's the one who hired a first time special teams coach (Izzo), a guy without any experience coaching NFL DBs (John Butler) and a guy who has no experience coaching NFL RBs (Charles London). So, OB is doing the firing.
This is a another example of a first time HC hiring inexperienced assistant coaches. I give OB credit for making these changes but most people would have told him bringing his Penn State staff with little NFL experience to his first NFL job had a 50/50 chance of getting him fired.
Kubiak did the same thing but they weren't mostly college coaches...
I think it telling that Barnhardt? left
He was OB's closest guy and was heavily relied on for game planning iirc
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Maybe the moves that should be initiated would involve:
1. O'Brien wears the HC cap exclusively.
2. O'Brien hires an OC to run the offense with little to no micro-management.
3. Crennel remains in the box, but his headset is now wired to Vrabel, exclusively. Asst HC / DC Mentor.
I could get pretty stoked if Frank Reich's name was being mentioned in the search for an OC.
1. O'Brien wears the HC cap exclusively.
2. O'Brien hires an OC to run the offense with little to no micro-management.
3. Crennel remains in the box, but his headset is now wired to Vrabel, exclusively. Asst HC / DC Mentor.
I could get pretty stoked if Frank Reich's name was being mentioned in the search for an OC.
Last edited:
I don't get this either, why is he being talked about as a HC elsewhere when his first season as DC was a disaster?
Shishkabob
All Pro
why would Obrien hire an OC and let him run it with no management? A. then why would he be the head coach of he doesn't manage those under him, and B. he had the NFL's best offense with Watson, why would he just let a new OC mess up what they already had going?
also why the he'll would Reich move laterally from philly's oc to our oc when he already gets to coach and mvp caliber qb, with a much better roster?
Porky
Hall of Fame
Do the names, Bouye, Watt, Mercilous, Simon, Cushing, Johnson (among others) mean anything to you.
Call it an excuse if you want, but I'd say easily more than half of the DC's in the league would chuck their entire defense and start over with just the names on the list above as a starting point and build around them.
It's hard to make chicken salad without the chicken.
PapaL
Loose Screw
Vrabel couldn't even make a salad out of the lettuce he had. Yes we had injuries, every team does, that doesn't mean we should rank dead last. To me it looked like guys weren't put in position to succeed like previous years. Our defense should have been all about Clowney and our ILBs. Injuries only grant a partial pass IMO. Loved Vrabel as a position coach, his LB'ers were awesome. I'm not impressed with him as a DC at all.
Shishkabob
All Pro
I could understand this argument the players on the field weren't constantly out of position, whiffing on open field tackles consistently, and barely being able to figure out where to line up before the ball snaps. that to me shows bad coaching
Bulls on Parade
2017 Astros: Earn It!
I never liked the John Butler hiring initially, but to his credit our secondary ranked very well in recent years. #3 pass defense in 2015 and even having the #1 pass defense in the league for most of 2016 (we finished #2 in pass defense behind Denver). On paper, if you just went by the stats and didn't watch any games, you would think we had one of the best secondaries in the league. But even then I would see a lot of mistakes from our young players.
In 2017 we slipped all the way down to #24 in pass defense. Losing A.J. Bouye was a big loss. But when you have a great pass rush it can make the secondary look good. Our front seven took a big hit this year with the season-ending injuries to Watt and Mercilus early in the season. The suspension to Cushing although our young linebackers played well for us.
The main problem I had with John Butler is our young talent in the secondary never made any noticeable strides or improvements under his watch. First-round cornerback, Kevin Johnson, has only gotten worse from year one to year three in the league. He still makes the same idiotic penalties. And I still see too much playing the receiver instead of turning your head backwards and playing the ball on those end zone plays or side line throws. For the love of God, you would think a highly touted defensive back prospect coming out of college would have the basic skills to properly play the ball in the air.
Anyways, John Butler is gone. He had some success here prior to 2017. I have to give him credit for the good things he did here, but at the end of the day the young players in the secondary weren't progressing. And when our pass defense goes from #3 and #2 in the league, to #24, you can't hide behind a top 3 pass defense anymore.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
The problem is how did we go from arguably the best defense in the league, to arguably the worst? Watt didn’t really play in 2016, so losing him again shouldn’t have made a difference. Simon, Cushing and Demps are merely role players. Are you saying Mercilus & Bouye were simply that good to make a complete 180 turnaround?
Johnson has a foot injury, (the worst kind of injury for a CB.) He may stick around a few yrs but will never be the player he could've become.
michaelm
vox nihili
Rod Woodson is currently the CB coach for the Raiders, I would love to get that guy in here as our secondary coach
austins23
Hall of Fame
Are you sure? the Raiders secondary was hot garbage as well. I believe the Raiders were the LAST team to record an INT this season.
michaelm
vox nihili
Honestly don't know anything about the Raiders secondary or their performance.
But I always thought Woodson was like a coach on the field as a player.
Porky
Hall of Fame
Well, sort of yes. Mercilus has become a complete LB and is a damn good pass rusher. Bouye has become one of the top corners in the league. They should have chucked JJo (if a decision had to be made) and signed Bouye to a long term deal.
Having a top pass rusher combined with a top corner would have made a big difference imo. One was purely bad luck. The other was poor planning and decision making.
I had some issues with our DC as well. However, where was Romeo? Romeo, Romeo where art thou? I mean he was Asst HC, not in Siberia. He's had tons of DC and HC experience. So, it seems to me that Romeo should have been assisting the newly minted DC with the game plans, if not the calls on Sunday. If the ship is moving into rough waters, and Romeo wasn't helping - I'd sure like to know why?
If our DC doesn't get a HC gig and he stays, I'm hoping he can do a LOT of self-evaluation over the off season. Experience is the world's best teacher. Just because he wasn't the best DC in the league this year doesn't mean he is doomed to failure. Young players try to get better over the off-season. Why can't it be the same for young coaches? Or any coach for that matter. I'm willing to keep an open mind - however if he comes back and the D is not improved next season, then ya...let's move a different direction.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
Why? Just because he was a good player, doesn’t make him a good coach.
michaelm
vox nihili
Known as a very smart player, so I imagine would help develop players, and teach fundamentals/technique, which has not been a strong point of our staff. Also known as a field general, that's why I said he was like a coach on the field when he was playing.
Played CB and Safety, both at a high level so understands both positions and the dynamics between them.
Position coaches are about development and individual play on the field, not calling defenses or making big picture decisions.
I just feel like he would be good at it
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I don't think it's too hard to see that those units were inept to the extreme. They could be Rick hires or they could have just done a poor job (or they could have been handed players that sucked so bad that their jobs were impossible even). I don't personally feel like speculating all that much on it myself. I accept that these guys probably needed to go.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
Fair arguments.
Personally, I always thought good players don’t equate to good coaches (most of the time), because they usually have a talent that can’t be taught; or they oversimplified the game because the game came rather easy to them.
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
This X1000. I never understood the logic behind letting Bouye walk to the Jags and keeping JJo. I’ll let the philosophers here argue whether it was Obrien’s or Smith’s fault.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Last edited:
michaelm
vox nihili
And that's a fair argument on your part. Thought about Mike Singletary when I read that
Last edited:
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Spotrac shows only $400k in cap savings to have released him last year. That would have made no sense and wouldn't have put a dent in keeping Bouye.
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
Well if the money is the only factor in deciding who stays...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
I'm not questioning whether they needed to go or not, and granted, I really don't pay much attention to other team's staff moves, but the second the GM position is void, coaches are getting pinks. And it would only make sense that it's OB making the call. When has a HC ever made large scale moves to his own staff like that?
Not necessarily complaining about it either. I hated that Kubiak stuck with guys that needed to go 'cause they were his boys, until he was pretty much forced to make moves like bringing in Son of Bum.
I think I'm actually applauding OB for holding his own guys accountable like that. Unless those weren't his guys and he let them go to bring his buddies in because he can now.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Not very often. As you know, the HC normally controls the coaches. This kind of turnover normally happens when an HC is on the cusp of getting fired. They get a "you can have another year if you fire these guys.'. As an example, TN told Mike Munchak to fire Bruce Matthews and several other coaches and he could stay HC. He refused, got fired and went to Pittsburgh as OL coach.
TheRealJoker
Hall of Fame
I believe they made a competitive offer given the information they had at the time pre Osweiller trade/Romo retirement. They cut it a bit too close and Bouye signed right before the Os trade to free up cap space to make a run for Romo who retired anyway.
Rick Smith despised the franchise tag. But given the time constraints to work an Os trade/Romo signing AND lockdown Bouye the franchise tag was really the only safe option for Bouye in hindsight.
At the time,the consensus here was that Bouye wasn't worth the tag price based on one year as basically the 4th corner... hindsight is sweet
Well, Smith is the one on leave of absence.
So who coached Bouye? Maybe it's not so much about the young talent not making improvements as it is losing the pass rush you had from previous years.
TheRealJoker
Hall of Fame
And again in hindsight there was a lot of good Oline FAs to choose from. The Vikings turned their OL around in 1 offseason. Rams as well.
Had the team been fully aware of the Duane Brown dilemma maybe they would have pushed to grab a guy like Whitworth?
That's on Rick Smith, if he didn't take Duane at his word. (as far as getting a replacement in here)
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
When did DB start threatening holdout with RS?
dream_team
Hall of Fame
Doesn’t matter that the DB holdout wasn’t known until way after FA started or the draft. There’s a lot of people here that believe RS should have been a mind reader and knew that was coming.
The actual date is likely only known by the Texans FO. It was made public just prior to OTAs in May. You'd have to think that Duane's agent spoke up prior to that point.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
As I mentioned in another thread, if I was his agent, knowing their one year rule, I would not. I would have waited for free agency to run out to eliminate the alternatives. More leverage for DB.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Knew all of them jokers would get the boot.
Texansballer74
The Marine
That's certainly a possibility.
It's not as if Kennard McGuire is a stranger to Texans policies.
But they didn't, hence the terrible season due to lack of planning and Ricky's gone. So I guess everything works out for the best in the long run.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Texans have gone through 3 special teams coaches since 2013. Two of them were thought to be pretty good at one point or another and the other seemed to have some good potential. Marciano and Ligs are still coaching ST in the nfl and college respectively. Izzo will likely find another job as well.
Maybe it’s not the coaches.
Maybe it’s the way they draft in the 3rd rounds and later where a good portion of your special teams guys should come from.
Special teams is really not all that complex. Want to, athleticism and discipline are really the main ingredients.
Hopefully we’ll start to see more guys who fit the mold.
Maybe it’s not the coaches.
Maybe it’s the way they draft in the 3rd rounds and later where a good portion of your special teams guys should come from.
Special teams is really not all that complex. Want to, athleticism and discipline are really the main ingredients.
Hopefully we’ll start to see more guys who fit the mold.