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Cowboy's first round pick Claiborne and his 4 on the wonderlic

G

gtexan02

Working?
Pretty funny. If I wasn't convinced he wasn't intelligent from his low score, his new answer of purposefully doing badly makes me even more convinced he's not intelligent.

Seriously, they are asking you to answer some questions over a 12 minute period. This may or may not affect how many millions of dollars you get in less than a few months. And you blow it off? Yup, genius...

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story...borne-dallas-cowboys-blew-wonderlic-test-says


IRVING, Texas -- Dallas Cowboys first-round draft pick Morris Claiborne said he pretty much blew off the Wonderlic test at the NFL scouting combine, resulting in what has been reported as a single-digit score.

The former LSU defensive back, selected sixth overall Thursday night, told reporters that he didn't take the test seriously.

"I mean, I looked on the test and wasn't nothing on the test that came with football, so I pretty much blew the test off," Claiborne said.

...

Claiborne reportedly had a score of 4, the lowest reported score in a dozen years. The average score for NFL prospects is 21.

Claiborne said he knew the test score would not affect his draft stock, but he admitted that he was bothered by some of the public mocking he endured after the score was reported.

...

Cowboys owner and general manager Jerry Jones said Claiborne's low Wonderlic score was "not an issue at all." He praised the cornerback's football instincts and ability to take coaching.

"We talk about the test scores, but we also talk about, 'What is his football IQ?' " coach Jason Garrett said. "He has instincts, he has vision, he has the ability to make plays at his position at an elite level."
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Doesn't matter. He's a pro football player now.

Dallas looking to trade 2008 1st round pick CB Mike Jenkins now...
 
I don't get why some people continue to place an emphasis at all on wondelic scores.

If Mercilus scored an 8, but has a double digit sack rookie campaign would you care?
 
I still can't believe the Rams made that trade.

Dallas Cowboys: Acquire pick No. 6 in 2012

St. Louis Rams: Acquire picks No. 14 and No. 45 in 2012
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When trading up to the top 10, I would expect more picks. Get at least an extra late rounder. Great deal of the Cowboys though.
 
Goldensilence said:
I don't get why some people continue to place an emphasis at all on wondelic scores.

If Mercilus scored an 8, but has a double digit sack rookie campaign would you care?
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Of course I wouldn't care. But thats not a useful question. Would you care if someone ran a 5.5 40 but had 1500 yards and 15 TDs as a rookie? Of course not.

The point is, all predraft measurements (physical, emotional, intellectual) are intended to help NFL teams predict the successfulness of their future picks. What they do once they are in the NFL trumps all predraft measurements, as again, those are only intended to help predict.

Have you seen NFL playbooks? They are usually immense and the wonderlic is a 12 minute way for teams to find out how smart someone is and how analytical their mind is

It seems like there is not a statistically significant correlation between wonderlic and player performance, but at the same time, I don't imagine that the people scoring in single digits have a very strong case (VY for example)
 
Dutchrudder said:
I still can't believe the Rams made that trade.



When trading up to the top 10, I would expect more picks. Get at least an extra late rounder. Great deal of the Cowboys though.
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Rams still get a stout defender in the middle since they didn't trade back too far and pick up another pick that is in a round where they should expect a starter with that roster. I liked it for them since they have a ton of needs.

On the thread...the wonder lick is overrated in evaluating corners. Ask Deion.
 
Goldensilence said:
I don't get why some people continue to place an emphasis at all on wondelic scores.

If Mercilus scored an 8, but has a double digit sack rookie campaign would you care?
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If Mercilus ran a 5.0 40 yard dash, would you care? If he has a double digit sack rookie campaign, no.

But it's a stat you evaluate beforehand to try to get a handle on if this guy has what it takes to be successful.

You don't need to be a genius to play football. But if you have a really low score it might indicate a future problem when you try to learn the playbook or a you might have a problem understanding coaching.

So the wonderlic is just like anything else they measure at the Combine; it's just another data point to consider beforehand to try to determine how good or bad a player someone's going to be.
 
Seth Payne ‏ @SethPayneTrain Close
.A DB's Wonderlic will only hurt him if he's asked to cover a hypotenuse.
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here's what Seth Payne had to say about this. :)
 
I think what gtexan was getting at is not his actual score but his approach to the test. That says more about his personality, character or work ethic than anything. He's a great player and will probably be good. But he's asked to perform a certain exercise that every single player in the nfl has been asked to do and he blows it off. JJ Watt, Demeco Ryans and Andre Johnson wouldn't think they were "too good" for it or that it shouldn't apply to them.

What this shows me is his poor attitude and he may not be the best "team player". Could hint at issues in the future of him not giving full effort.

I also don't like it when fans downgrade certain events or tests that these prospects take. Individually they may mean little but when looking at the totality of all their "scores" it paints a much better picture.
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
I think what gtexan was getting at is not his actual score but his approach to the test. That says more about his personality, character or work ethic than anything. He's a great player and will probably be good. But he's asked to perform a certain exercise that every single player in the nfl has been asked to do and he blows it off. JJ Watt, Demeco Ryans and Andre Johnson wouldn't think they were "too good" for it or that it shouldn't apply to them.

What this shows me is his poor attitude and he may not be the best "team player". Could hint at issues in the future of him not giving full effort.

I also don't like it when fans downgrade certain events or tests that these prospects take. Individually they may mean little but when looking at the totality of all their "scores" it paints a much better picture.
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Exactly. The low Wonderlic is a red flag. The red flag raised in this case is his attitude.

Could be a situation where the coaches ask this guy to do something and he blows them off because he doesn't see the point. Could be a situation where he's the type that disregards the "details" and so he's in the wrong spots at times because he doesn't take the time to get everything right.
 
Vinny said:
Seth Payne ‏ @SethPayneTrain Close
.A DB's Wonderlic will only hurt him if he's asked to cover a hypotenuse.
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here's what Seth Payne had to say about this. :)
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Are semi-aquatic sub-Saharan mammals allowed to play NFL?:kitten:

A score of 4 is stoooopid, but at the same time, you have to hope that his on-field ability helps him to overcome it, you'd also have to say that whilst his comments on the matter seem to show laziness, he doesn't come across as particularly intellectually challenged, and the scouts will have had chance to get more of a feeling about that in interviews.
 
gtexan02 said:
Seriously, they are asking you to answer some questions over a 12 minute period. This may or may not affect how many millions of dollars you get in less than a few months. And you blow it off? Yup, genius...
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Yeah, except for one thing:

He was drafted #6 overall. If he made a 21 on the Wonderlic, do you think he would have been drafted #1 overall? And what is the monetary difference between #1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6? Because the initial contract is the only time the Wonderlic could really affect him, and it didn't. His future wealth depends on his production, not his Wonderlic.

I can see an argument that his flippant attitude would be cause for concern in the Cowboys organization, but that didn't stop them from drafting him #6 and thus ensuring him millions of dollars.
 
eriadoc said:
Yeah, except for one thing:

He was drafted #6 overall. If he made a 21 on the Wonderlic, do you think he would have been drafted #1 overall? And what is the monetary difference between #1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6? Because the initial contract is the only time the Wonderlic could really affect him, and it didn't. His future wealth depends on his production, not his Wonderlic.

I can see an argument that his flippant attitude would be cause for concern in the Cowboys organization, but that didn't stop them from drafting him #6 and thus ensuring him millions of dollars.
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He didn't know he was going to go #6 overall when he was at the test though. In 2010 AJ Green went #4 overall and Julio Jones went two spots later at #6. The difference between #4 and #6 was 19.7million guaranteed and 16.1 million guaranteed. 2 spots equated to 3.6 million over 4 years. Thats almost a million dollars a year. Thats a lot of money.

I'm not saying if he had scored a 25 that he would have been drafted at #4 overall, but what I'm saying is that when he took it, he had no idea that the Cowboys wanted him badly enough to ignore his horrible test. 12 minutes of effort for a million a year and he has such a bad attitude that he ignores it? He got lucky that Dallas needed a corner and Jerry takes headcases is the real moral of this story
 
I still can't believe the Bucs traded down 2 slots for a 4th round pick and missed this guy. They better hope that Alabama safety they drafted turns out to be another Ronnie Lott or John Lynch.
 
I know Jason Garrett has to put positive spin on this topic, it's his job to BS us, but how can he possibly think that a rookie player who only does what he wants to, only what he thinks is important, is coachable.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
Exactly. The low Wonderlic is a red flag. The red flag raised in this case is his attitude.

Could be a situation where the coaches ask this guy to do something and he blows them off because he doesn't see the point. Could be a situation where he's the type that disregards the "details" and so he's in the wrong spots at times because he doesn't take the time to get everything right.
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Kinda fits with the Cowboys.
 
gtexan02 said:
Of course I wouldn't care. But thats not a useful question. Would you care if someone ran a 5.5 40 but had 1500 yards and 15 TDs as a rookie? Of course not.

The point is, all predraft measurements (physical, emotional, intellectual) are intended to help NFL teams predict the successfulness of their future picks. What they do once they are in the NFL trumps all predraft measurements, as again, those are only intended to help predict.

Have you seen NFL playbooks? They are usually immense and the wonderlic is a 12 minute way for teams to find out how smart someone is and how analytical their mind is

It seems like there is not a statistically significant correlation between wonderlic and player performance, but at the same time, I don't imagine that the people scoring in single digits have a very strong case (VY for example)
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The Pencil Neck said:
If Mercilus ran a 5.0 40 yard dash, would you care? If he has a double digit sack rookie campaign, no.

But it's a stat you evaluate beforehand to try to get a handle on if this guy has what it takes to be successful.

You don't need to be a genius to play football. But if you have a really low score it might indicate a future problem when you try to learn the playbook or a you might have a problem understanding coaching.

So the wonderlic is just like anything else they measure at the Combine; it's just another data point to consider beforehand to try to determine how good or bad a player someone's going to be.
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Didn't seem to have a problem digesting the playbook in one the the nation's best defenses at LSU.

Seemed like he worked his way into being the premier corner in the nation following on the heels of Patrick Peterson.

Again as I've maintained all along, I'd be more interested in what his overall GPA was and what he's been doing off the field than if he really cared about a test that, when it really comes down to it, has no bearing on whether or not you can play at a high level in then NFL.

Let me ask you both a few questions. We know he's got a learning disability...so what if he really does study hard and pulls out a VY 9. Is that really going to improve your judgement of him? Is that 5 points going to move you to think differently? Would that impede you from drafting him? I get what you both are hinting towards but does that score 100% sway you on drafting him or not?
 
Goldensilence said:
Didn't seem to have a problem digesting the playbook in one the the nation's best defenses at LSU.

Seemed like he worked his way into being the premier corner in the nation following on the heels of Patrick Peterson.

Again as I've maintained all along, I'd be more interested in what his overall GPA was and what he's been doing off the field than if he really cared about a test that, when it really comes down to it, has no bearing on whether or not you can play at a high level in then NFL.

Let me ask you both a few questions. We know he's got a learning disability...so what if he really does study hard and pulls out a VY 9. Is that really going to improve your judgement of him? Is that 5 points going to move you to think differently? Would that impede you from drafting him? I get what you both are hinting towards but does that score 100% sway you on drafting him or not?
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Like I said, it's ONE data-point. It's a red flag that you have to investigate and then put together with everything else you learn about that particular player. You don't base your entire decision on it but it points out something that you need to get some more information about.

It's like Arian's slow 40 time a the Combine. That was a datapoint. If you're a scout who's doing his job, you don't base your opinion on him based on that datapoint but it's a red flag for you to investigate. If you're doing your job, you realize that he was still recovering from a hammy injury. You put on tape and you see him running away from guys and realize that the slow 40 time doesn't fit in with his play and you decide to ignore that data point.

With Claiborne, you've got a red-flag because of his low Wonderlic. Everything else looks beastly but if this guy is extremely retarded, it could cause problems. So you take a look at his GPA (although that could be inflated by cheating or a weak courseload), you talk to him to see what's going on in his head, maybe you set up some other sorts of tests that are more football intelligence related. You don't base your entire opinion on that one datapoint, but you use it to help you investigate and try to determine how the kid's going to translate to the NFL.
 
Goldensilence said:
Didn't seem to have a problem digesting the playbook in one the the nation's best defenses at LSU.

Seemed like he worked his way into being the premier corner in the nation following on the heels of Patrick Peterson.

Again as I've maintained all along, I'd be more interested in what his overall GPA was and what he's been doing off the field than if he really cared about a test that, when it really comes down to it, has no bearing on whether or not you can play at a high level in then NFL.

Let me ask you both a few questions. We know he's got a learning disability...so what if he really does study hard and pulls out a VY 9. Is that really going to improve your judgement of him? Is that 5 points going to move you to think differently? Would that impede you from drafting him? I get what you both are hinting towards but does that score 100% sway you on drafting him or not?
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It wasn't necessarily the 4 that shocked me, it was the fact that he decided not to try at all and thus score a 4.

Its 12 minutes of your time. 12 minutes. And at the time you're taking the test, you don't know how much it will affect your draft grade. But 2 spots in the top 10 can equate to millions of dollars.

So 12 minutes of your time for maybe 4 million dollars? And yet your choice is to blow it off?


It is the same red flag as a guy testing positive for marijuana at the combine. Does the pot use bother me? Not that much. Its the fact that you are too short sighted to see that abstaining from smoking out for less than a week could earn you millions of dollars. And yet you chose to smoke out anyway
 
OVERBLOWN!

These guys are 20-22. If I'd blame anyone it would be his agent for not prepping him more or discussing the raminfications. Overall though I've neither read or seen anything that this kid was a head case or had trouble learning schemes or defenses in college.
 
HoustonFrog said:
OVERBLOWN!

These guys are 20-22. If I'd blame anyone it would be his agent for not prepping him more or discussing the raminfications. Overall though I've neither read or seen anything that this kid was a head case or had trouble learning schemes or defenses in college.
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You think 22 is too young to be responsible for your actions? You're drinking the hometown koolaid here. Many people have families, careers, etc by 22. He is supposed to be a college educated kid.
 
I don't see how he can purposefully do so poorly and THEN be upset when people call him a moron.

But then again, I guess it's self-explanatory.
 
HoustonFrog said:
OVERBLOWN!

These guys are 20-22. If I'd blame anyone it would be his agent for not prepping him more or discussing the raminfications. Overall though I've neither read or seen anything that this kid was a head case or had trouble learning schemes or defenses in college.
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Cowboy haters gotta hate.
 
Question. Did he not get a heads up about what the wonderlic was? Or was he blindsided by the tests and its questions?

I find it hard to believe that nobody told him that this test was not about football, but more about making sure you can dissect a problem and solve.

Bottom line, he has shown that if he doesnt agree with a principle, he might just say F that.
 
The1ApplePie said:
Cowboy haters gotta hate.
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LOL! My greatest hope is that his transition into the pros is as impressive as his HS and college records.

I was at work and really busy during the draft, and almost fainted when I saw our pick. I thought I would have been home by the 14th pick. Jerry manages to keep drafts interesting, but wow, I never saw that coming.
 
If he scored a 4 on the wonderlic, he's definitely qualified to play QB for the Cowboys.... and he'll need to do that, and Jerruh's job to bring the Sowboys back from the pits of hades... <---- Cowboy Hater, and I make no apologies for that :)
 
gtexan02 said:
You think 22 is too young to be responsible for your actions? You're drinking the hometown koolaid here. Many people have families, careers, etc by 22. He is supposed to be a college educated kid.
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There is no koolaid to drink. The guy has never had issues with authority, coaching, playing or discipline. This isn't a red flag plain and simple. If anything its Cowboy hatorade, whic is expectd, more than koolaid that this is even a big topic. As for 22, Sure you can have all those things by 22 and alot of people are divorced and still growing up by age 23. If you compared what I did, knew and how I acted at 22 vs even 26 there was a massive gap. There was a reason I didn't get married until 35 and why I now have 3 kids and am still learning at 42. As I said an agent is supposed to prep them on this. Just my random thoughts :)
 
gtexan02 said:
It wasn't necessarily the 4 that shocked me, it was the fact that he decided not to try at all and thus score a 4.

Its 12 minutes of your time. 12 minutes. And at the time you're taking the test, you don't know how much it will affect your draft grade. But 2 spots in the top 10 can equate to millions of dollars.

So 12 minutes of your time for maybe 4 million dollars? And yet your choice is to blow it off?


It is the same red flag as a guy testing positive for marijuana at the combine. Does the pot use bother me? Not that much. Its the fact that you are too short sighted to see that abstaining from smoking out for less than a week could earn you millions of dollars. And yet you chose to smoke out anyway
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The deal is... it didn't affect his draft status at all though.

Sure, it might be a "data point" as I have heard it thrown around here, but how does it become a real deciding one in taking one player over another? I doubt I'll ever hear a scout, coach, or GM say "well you know Mel... the fact that his wonderlic was 10 points higher was the REAL tipping factor in why we chose X player...."

Smoking pot.. yeah that might be a factor that would tip me one way or another.

But, a wonderlic score and whether or not they REALLY tried on it? Nope.
 
I'm not gonna pick on "4" (Claiborne) like I did "6" (Vince Young) because "4" at least admitted he didn't try... VY, on the otherhand didn't try to distance himself that way. That said, if Claiborne truly thought the wonderlic was such BS, why did he take it to begin with?? There is no NFL rule that states a player entering the draft must take it... Hell, aren't there prospects every year that refuse to participate in certain drills??

Good job "4" and even better job by his agent!! Yes you would still be a first rounder, the question is could you have avoided all the scrutiny???
 
It is a red flag, of that I have no doubt.

Once you see it you look closer. If you find it to be atypical then it's not a big deal. It should cause an interested team to take a closer look though.

The instant he produces on the football field it becomes a non-issue. Until that happens though it's something that will be talked about. No way around that nor should there be.
 
Texan_Bill said:
I'm not gonna pick on "4" (Claiborne) like I did "6" (Vince Young) because "4" at least admitted he didn't try... VY, on the otherhand didn't try to distance himself that way. That said, if Claiborne truly thought the wonderlic was such BS, why did he take it to begin with?? There is no NFL rule that states a player entering the draft must take it... Hell, aren't there prospects every year that refuse to participate in certain drills??

Good job "4" and even better job by his agent!! Yes you would still be a first rounder, the question is could you have avoided all the scrutiny???
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That is my issue, as stated above. What advice did his agent give?

And Seth Payne is hilarious. Hope all is well TB!
 
Goldensilence said:
The deal is... it didn't affect his draft status at all though.

Sure, it might be a "data point" as I have heard it thrown around here, but how does it become a real deciding one in taking one player over another? I doubt I'll ever hear a scout, coach, or GM say "well you know Mel... the fact that his wonderlic was 10 points higher was the REAL tipping factor in why we chose X player...."

Smoking pot.. yeah that might be a factor that would tip me one way or another.

But, a wonderlic score and whether or not they REALLY tried on it? Nope.
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How do you know that? How do you know that another team in the top 10 wouldn't have jumped up to 4 or 5 to grab him? There were ample trade opportunities in the first 5 picks

Lets not forget that Patrick Peterson went 5th overall and Claiborne was considered the better pure cover corner/NFL prospect.

Also, the difference between even 1 draft slot in the top 5 is millions
 
gtexan02 said:
How do you know that? How do you know that another team in the top 10 wouldn't have jumped up to 4 or 5 to grab him? There were ample trade opportunities in the first 5 picks
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Did you quote the wrong post? because I don't see anything in Goldensilence's post that have anything to do with trading up or some other team trading up or anything.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
Did you quote the wrong post? because I don't see anything in Goldensilence's post that have anything to do with trading up or some other team trading up or anything.
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He said:

The deal is... it didn't affect his draft status at all though.
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I just dont think its possible for him to know this. We will never know whether that 4 affected his draft. He went at #6 overall. If he had scored a 20 maybe he still goes #6. Maybe he goes #5. All I'm saying is its not possible to say that it didn't affect him because we aren't in the draft rooms for the 30 or so teams that could have considered drafting him
 
gtexan02 said:
He said:



I just dont think its possible for him to know this. We will never know whether that 4 affected his draft. He went at #6 overall. If he had scored a 20 maybe he still goes #6. Maybe he goes #5. All I'm saying is its not possible to say that it didn't affect him because we aren't in the draft rooms for the 30 or so teams that could have considered drafting him
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But you still have to take into effect need. The guy was Top 6. Going into the night he was considered maybe Top 3 (the top two slots weren't up for grabs or in doubt so that left 4 spots) and no teams had expressed concern over the score. Minnesota was going him or O-line and most knew they coveted O-line. Cleveland was taking RB. TB was thinking of taking him b4 Dallas but got a trade offer from J'Ville who was looking WR. TB was targeting him at 5 before that if he dropped. With all of the trades and with how the Top 2 picks were set up, I believe it is safe to say that it didn't effect his stock because the guy was going Top 6 and not many teams out of 30 had a shot to move into Top 5 range.
 
HoustonFrog said:
But you still have to take into effect need. The guy was Top 6. Going into the night he was considered maybe Top 3 (the top two slots weren't up for grabs or in doubt so that left 4 spots) and no teams had expressed concern over the score. Minnesota was going him or O-line and most knew they coveted O-line. Cleveland was taking RB. TB was thinking of taking him b4 Dallas but got a trade offer from J'Ville who was looking WR. TB was targeting him at 5 before that if he dropped. With all of the trades and with how the Top 2 picks were set up, I believe it is safe to say that it didn't effect his stock because the guy was going Top 6 and not many teams out of 30 had a shot to move into Top 5 range.
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I understand what you're saying, but consider this:
He's top 5 guy who could have gone #3 -#5
#3 pick was up for grabs (was traded)
#4 pick was up for grabs (was traded)
#5 pick was up for grabs (was traded)

You said it yourself, Vikings were considering him or OT. How can we ever know that his wonderlic didn't turn off the Vikings?
 
Seems like splitting hairs, but you're right I could have been more specific in saying his wonderlic score isn't going to DRAMATICALLY affect his draft status. Meaning a 4 wasn't going to drop him out of the top 10, period.

What ultimately affected where he was selected was team need. I still find it hard to believe that his wonderlic score was what tipped Minnesota to go OT over him at #4. More likely what tipped them was losing Hutchinson and the fact they want to protect a big investment in Ponder at QB.
 
gtexan02 said:
He said:



I just dont think its possible for him to know this. We will never know whether that 4 affected his draft. He went at #6 overall. If he had scored a 20 maybe he still goes #6. Maybe he goes #5. All I'm saying is its not possible to say that it didn't affect him because we aren't in the draft rooms for the 30 or so teams that could have considered drafting him
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Uh. OK.

The guy went 6th for crying out loud. If he hurt himself, it wasn't by much. He wasn't going 1st or 2nd. With Cleveland's desire for Richardson, he probably wasn't going 3rd. So he hurt himself at most by a couple of spots. No big deal.
 
gtexan02 said:
I understand what you're saying, but consider this:
He's top 5 guy who could have gone #3 -#5
#3 pick was up for grabs (was traded)
#4 pick was up for grabs (was traded)
#5 pick was up for grabs (was traded)

You said it yourself, Vikings were considering him or OT. How can we ever know that his wonderlic didn't turn off the Vikings?
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All I can say to those who could have chosen him, but didn't, I sincerely appreciate it, and THANK YOU!
 
The Pencil Neck said:
Uh. OK.

The guy went 6th for crying out loud. If he hurt himself, it wasn't by much. He wasn't going 1st or 2nd. With Cleveland's desire for Richardson, he probably wasn't going 3rd. So he hurt himself at most by a couple of spots. No big deal.
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I said this earlier in the thread, maybe you missed it:

In 2011 AJ Green went #4 overall and Julio Jones went two spots later at #6. The difference between #4 and #6 was 19.7million guaranteed and 16.1 million guaranteed. 2 spots equated to 3.6 million over 4 years. Thats almost a million dollars a year. Thats a lot of money.
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Same exact position so the comparison should be almost exactly valid to Claiborne. It represents a 22% pay increase from the #6 to the #4 spot. 22%!

The wonderlic takes 12 minutes. Maybe 12 minutes of effort isn't worth 3.6 million to you, but it sure is hell to me. If putting a little effort in for 12 minutes could have given him even a 1% better chance of securing a 1 or 2 spot upward move in the draft, and he still chose not to to do it, thats insane. I'm not drinking anti-Cowboy haterade here, I'm just pointing out that by purposefully ignoring a test and making national headlines as a result, this guy has shown already that he is capable of exceedingly poor decisions
 
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