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Strictly talent wise, where do we rank?
- Thread starter Rey
- Start date
Maybe it's late and I'm not thinking clearly.
But I'm going to lockbon at top 5. Typing that I feel dirty and ashamed though.
That said, Arian is a beast. Aj is aj. Schaub is upper tier. The o line has good pieces across the board. Casey seems like he will deliver. Depth at rb is good. I think our wr talent is actually pretty good. Jj may not perform well consistently, but as a #3 wr he has to be up there right? Dickerson is a freak athlete. The talent is there. The refinery needs to come. Same for jj really. Owen Daniels is a beast and dreesen is no slouch.
Defensively (although they have a lot of question marks) I think weve got talent as well. Jjo, Mario, watt, smith, Cushing, demeco, manning, smith, gq, kjax, barwin, reed, Harris. Those guys have talent, some upper echelon, some really good.
Our defense isn't full of stiffs but talent wise our offense is crushing people.
Maybe top 5 was too high. Maybe top ten?
Perki-Perk
DieHard Texan!
I'm going to sleep on this and will provide an answer tomorrow at work, bc that is what work is for right?!
badboy
Hall of Fame
Difficult for me to answer so I did not vote. Offense should be top 5 and I think defense at least middle, 15-17? If CB#2 is addressd, ILBs remain healthy and we can slow run game against us, defense can be at least top 10. Mario is the player that could tip this thing into stratosphere if he ends up as disruptive as Wade thinks. If the stars line up just right we could have a Super Bowl team. Pittsburgh remains the only team I see as a loss.
80tothezone
Veteran
we top 32 till the season gets going....
I dont see Pittsburgh beating the Texans at home .... I think the Ravens are a much tougher test on the road , a much better team than the Steelers for that matter.
The Texans have the games best reciever , a top 3 RB , a top 3 TE , an upper tier QB and the leagues best OL .... They were the most balanced team offensively in the NFL last season - You could argue they have the games best offense.
Defensively there is a lot of talent .... Its a matter of it coming together and the sum equaling its parts. They could be a top 5 defense ....
Talent wise , there is no single team I would point at and say "They are just better".
Edit: Teams I think are just as good as the Texans ? Baltimore , San Diego , Green Bay , New Orleans and Philly.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
We've got the best WR in the bidness. We've got a top 10-12 QB who, with a couple of good seasons, could catapult himself into the Elite range. We've got a RB that led the league in rushing last year and the OL that blocked for him.
We've got, I think, one of the elite TEs and easily the most under-rated. On top of that, I think with Casey, we might have another amazing weapon.
On the defense, we've got 2 Defensive Rookies of the Year and a #1 overall pick. One of our CBs is in the top 10 range. With Barwin, Reed, Braman, Sharpton, Watt, and Antonio Smith... we've got a talented front 7. We'll see about the rest of the back 3.
But for me, you take that all together... and I say top 10 talentwise.
So now the onus is on the coaches to translate that into a top 10 record.
We've got, I think, one of the elite TEs and easily the most under-rated. On top of that, I think with Casey, we might have another amazing weapon.
On the defense, we've got 2 Defensive Rookies of the Year and a #1 overall pick. One of our CBs is in the top 10 range. With Barwin, Reed, Braman, Sharpton, Watt, and Antonio Smith... we've got a talented front 7. We'll see about the rest of the back 3.
But for me, you take that all together... and I say top 10 talentwise.
So now the onus is on the coaches to translate that into a top 10 record.
buddyboy
Rookie
Dang...I put bottom half.
Players who would start on MOST other teams:
Offense
Schaub
Foster
Andre
Daniels
Defense:
Joseph
Demeco
Cushing
Mario
And...that's it. Four locks on each side of the ball (and I'd even call into question the two linebackers. They're coming off injury and there's a lot of talented linebackers out there).
I feel like the scheme of our offense as well as the absolute greatness of Andre and Arian make our offense much better than the talent that is there. The whole sum of the parts is greater than the parts individually thing.
Defensively...we have some potential talent. JJ Watt looks like he could be great, Reed looks nice, but would they START on MOST other teams? Dunno.
Maybe I'm being overly critical because I know I'm biased, but I'd say we're bottom half in talent terms. I think we'll overachieve though as far as actual W/L goes
Players who would start on MOST other teams:
Offense
Schaub
Foster
Andre
Daniels
Defense:
Joseph
Demeco
Cushing
Mario
And...that's it. Four locks on each side of the ball (and I'd even call into question the two linebackers. They're coming off injury and there's a lot of talented linebackers out there).
I feel like the scheme of our offense as well as the absolute greatness of Andre and Arian make our offense much better than the talent that is there. The whole sum of the parts is greater than the parts individually thing.
Defensively...we have some potential talent. JJ Watt looks like he could be great, Reed looks nice, but would they START on MOST other teams? Dunno.
Maybe I'm being overly critical because I know I'm biased, but I'd say we're bottom half in talent terms. I think we'll overachieve though as far as actual W/L goes
80tothezone
Veteran
I got to say a lot of our backups start on most teams in the nfl maybe not the packers but really who wouldn't start Tate? Tennessee? Who wouldn't start reed? Smith? Barwin? I mean after this yr is done I am thinking a lot of teams would. Several of out O linemn?? I meanthey blocked for the number 1 rusher last yr and one ofthe top passers for the last 3 yrs,.. The only starter we got on O that I think wouldn't start on most teams is JJ and maybe walter (I but I will say walter has some hands on him and is a solid route runner). On D probably could go with KJ wouldn't start and cody or mitchel other than that who wouldn't start on MOST teams? I also tend to think that with jojo to teach him and WP KJ is gonna be good this yr.
Also MOST teams have people in one position or another that would not start on most teams, it is a function of the salary cap and honestly because it keeps teams as even as possible I like it. You can't have 11 Mannings or Fosters or AJ's running around on each team, just not gonna happen. One thing I do hope that we do this year is use the talent we have more effectively. That is really who wins cause barring AF type guys making well under what they deserve the Cap keeps the market pretty even.
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
Our straight up talent is amazing, I think. Top 10 for sure.
top 5. last year we were easily the most talented 6 win team. add jj, watt, reed,manning to the starting rotation and Barwin is back. we have a solid talent core. on paper we should be top 5. I'm worried a little about a lack of experience in the clutch, but that has nothing to do with talent
What teams do you think have more talent than the texans?
Trail.Blazr
Hooked up to a Kool-Aid IV
One that won it twice!!!
First, let me say I study our team... and observe other teams, so I can't really say.
However, I'd have a hard time believing we're top five, even on offense.
Schaub, AJ, Daniels, Arian...... Tate(??) & that's it. Some teams have as much talent on their offensive lines alone.
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Trail.Blazr
Hooked up to a Kool-Aid IV
Top 10 was easy, based on our O. If not for a lot of questions at D and HC, I'd entertain 5, but wow... just get me a playoff spot before I start trying to knock down teams that aren't eligible to sit above my beloved Texans.
For sure, you'd have to put Atlanta, GB, Saints, Eagles, Chargers, Colts, Ravens, Steelers and Jets on a list of teams that I would want to debate may or may not be as good or better than the Texans talent wise. So in my mind, we are at worst a top 10 team. Now there may be a team or three that deserve mention as well for the sake of debate, but all the same, I've listed one or two that can be discredited with some argument as well. But to take that list and knock of 5 in 10 seconds or less is merely homer-speculation that would do nothing more than make me look the fool as the season plays out.
I'll settle for top 10 right now. Considering a 6-10 record to launch into a new season with High hopes of derailing the Colts from the AFC South based on the talent sitting on paper AND beat the teams we should as well as the teams we could... Ironically, I feel all too comfortable in that spot. I'm not saying it can't happen, or this is the year,,, but for the love of god.... Sheesh, get it done already
For sure, you'd have to put Atlanta, GB, Saints, Eagles, Chargers, Colts, Ravens, Steelers and Jets on a list of teams that I would want to debate may or may not be as good or better than the Texans talent wise. So in my mind, we are at worst a top 10 team. Now there may be a team or three that deserve mention as well for the sake of debate, but all the same, I've listed one or two that can be discredited with some argument as well. But to take that list and knock of 5 in 10 seconds or less is merely homer-speculation that would do nothing more than make me look the fool as the season plays out.
I'll settle for top 10 right now. Considering a 6-10 record to launch into a new season with High hopes of derailing the Colts from the AFC South based on the talent sitting on paper AND beat the teams we should as well as the teams we could... Ironically, I feel all too comfortable in that spot. I'm not saying it can't happen, or this is the year,,, but for the love of god.... Sheesh, get it done already
drunkcookie
2 drunk 2 cook
Obviously the offense is very talented, so they're up there somewhere....
When you look at the D, Mario is one of the most talented guys in the league, period (hand off the gun now, didn't say 'best)... Watt, Smith, Ryans, Cush, JJ, Manning etc... All very talented guys...
But to be honest with you, though I do pay attention to the other teams/rest of the league, I don't give them as much attention as I do to the Texans...
In order for me to put an honest rank out there, I'd need to put our 22+ guys up against the other 31's 22+ guys and see how they match up/average out etc...
I won't pretend to know, so no vote for me...
When you look at the D, Mario is one of the most talented guys in the league, period (hand off the gun now, didn't say 'best)... Watt, Smith, Ryans, Cush, JJ, Manning etc... All very talented guys...
But to be honest with you, though I do pay attention to the other teams/rest of the league, I don't give them as much attention as I do to the Texans...
In order for me to put an honest rank out there, I'd need to put our 22+ guys up against the other 31's 22+ guys and see how they match up/average out etc...
I won't pretend to know, so no vote for me...
Are you going off of production or talent?
Honestly, after reading tk's post about studying vs observing I'm a little less sure.
The talent is there though.
How many teams have a top tier qb, elite rb with good depth behind him, elite wr, top tier te, a good o-line and a fb that causes match up problems like Casey?
Not to knock other top offenses, but is it really a stretch that we have top 5 talent there?
I dunno about that.
I know there are offenses that are more productive, but would the saints, colts, packers, chargers, who else? Be less productive if we switched all offensive pieces sans the qb and system?
Perki-Perk
DieHard Texan!
I say the easy way to figure this out is you take rankings. What have we proved on field?
Well, last year, we were 3rd in offense, ergo, top 5.
However, last year, in defense, we were 3A high school quality. So, bottom 5.
This year, strictly speculating, we should be returning the same offense, if not improved, so that's stays top 5, easily. As far as defense is concerned, is it too much to speculate that we'll be AT LEAST middle of the pack? If not, then if you take 16 and add it to 2 (my estimate of where the offense will be) then you get 18. Divide by 2 and you get 9. That puts us in top 10.
Oh crap, Special teams....Yeah, middle of the pack sounds about right..haha
Well, last year, we were 3rd in offense, ergo, top 5.
However, last year, in defense, we were 3A high school quality. So, bottom 5.
This year, strictly speculating, we should be returning the same offense, if not improved, so that's stays top 5, easily. As far as defense is concerned, is it too much to speculate that we'll be AT LEAST middle of the pack? If not, then if you take 16 and add it to 2 (my estimate of where the offense will be) then you get 18. Divide by 2 and you get 9. That puts us in top 10.
Oh crap, Special teams....Yeah, middle of the pack sounds about right..haha
buddyboy
Rookie
Tate hasn't proved anything yet, I doubt "most" teams (more than 16) would definitely start Tate. Barwin, same thing.
I was on the fence about Antonio, I think we as Texans fans overvalue our players. It's true about every sport fan. We know our players and think they're the cat's pajamas, but other teams think "who?"
Several of our o-linemen? I doubt that the majority of NFL teams would start them. They're undersized and not talented to start on more than 16 teams in the NFL. But, like I said, this is a case of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. The scheme and combination of the line, as well as the starting 5 being able to gel together makes them a great line together. That being said, you put Meyers up on the trading block, and I don't know how much interest you get.
On defense, I don't think either of our safeties are top 15 players. Glover, who knows, but you put him out there, and I doubt more than 16 teams put him in at STARTING safety, him being a newbie to safety and all. Manning was fighting for a safety spot with da Bears, so I'm not real sure he would either. I guess I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.
And yes, of course every NFL team has holes. But what I was saying is that the Texans talent, in my opinion, might not stack up to the rest of the NFL. Or at the very least, I am trying to say that we as Texans fans are overvaluing our players. The very fact that you said KJ "probably" wouldn't start on most teams is evidence enough. He definitely wouldn't.
buddyboy
Rookie
Rankings are a great way to determine where your production ranks. Not talent wise, which is what the OP is about. Maybe a better way is to determine how many of our players are top 15/10/5 at their positions.
Let's look at the Jets Offense.
RB, WR, QB, TE.. surely not equals, but still a talented bunch of guys. Then you throw in Mangold, Debrick.... maybe one of their young guards...
The NFL is a talented league, you know that. Top 5..... man that's tough when we've got Walter & JJ as our #2/3.... sure they're talented, but the Jets got Plax & Santonio, Greene & LT, Dustin Keller ain't no OD, but he's not a slouch either.
I really think that has more to do with Kubiak than our talent level.
We are way more talented on defense. If Wade can replicate what Kubiak does on offense with the talent he's got... we ought to have one of the better defenses in the league for years to come.
Good points.
And tbh, I don't know how id rank our o linemen as individuals. I'm not saying we have a mangold or d brick, but individually are our guys really that bad?
If ny kept Sanchez, and we swapped everything else do you think that he'd do better or worse with our weapons and o-line?
I have to think that throwing to aj, od, Casey, Walter, dreesen, jj would not be something sanchize would dread. Then handing off to foster.
Plaxico was really good before, but does he automatically come in now and put them to shame? I think aj almost trumps their entire receiving corps by himself.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
Top ten talent, bottom ten in coaching. I hope Wade balances that out so we get a winning formula.
Are you going by draft status or talent level?
We've spent more picks/resources on defense, but pound for pound, excluding scheme I think it's a wash at best.
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
Well yeah, i asked because I wanted opinions.
If you are just looking at the players we have, excluding all other factors, how would you rank then talent wise?
Forget about rankings. Forget about coaching. Imagine all teams played for the same coach and ran the same plays. How would we rank?
There simply weren't enough options. There's no evidence that we're a top-10 team talent-wise. Even counting last year, outside of AJ/Arian, who is elite in the league?
I can see top 1/3 (12th-13th), but I can't honestly go any higher than that. it's not as if our cast-offs are THAT highly prized.
I can see top 1/3 (12th-13th), but I can't honestly go any higher than that. it's not as if our cast-offs are THAT highly prized.
badboy
Hall of Fame
I think we will see some good play from our 2s. Who was not pleased with the way Butler filled in for Brown? I like the way Pemberton played vs SF but was surprised Shelley Smith did not do enough. We seem to have a good LB rotation which should benefit ST. I think the NT & slowing the run will continue to get better; but remain uneasy about corners. If Nolan continues with his most recent efforts, Quin moving back to #2 CB could be an option if Allen or KJ don't please Wade.
Then you've got to think does Schaub & the System make JJ & Walter look better than they are.
Take Schaub out of the picture, do you still see Walter & JJ as a major part of any offense? Same thing with Dressen & OD.
I like OD, I think he's special. But I don't know how special he would be if he were with the Bucs or even the Giants.
Remember that Shockey guy?? Then Boss... so maybe the Giants aren't a good example.
But the point is the same. Match the talent to the system... & all that.
♪
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The last thing I'm going to say on this....
Kubiak has been making lemonade for 6 seasons trying to get a defense that works. I think Wade is the missing piece & we're finally going to see that happen. Hopefully we can get a true compliment to AJ in the 2012 draft, or a true upgrade to the interior of our offensive line.
Then again, maybe someone will make Wade an offer he can't refuse after our Super Bowl run..... & we'll be back at square 1.
♪
Kubiak has been making lemonade for 6 seasons trying to get a defense that works. I think Wade is the missing piece & we're finally going to see that happen. Hopefully we can get a true compliment to AJ in the 2012 draft, or a true upgrade to the interior of our offensive line.
Then again, maybe someone will make Wade an offer he can't refuse after our Super Bowl run..... & we'll be back at square 1.
♪
False Start
On # 69
Top half. The offense is stacked, but I just dont think they are there yet on the defensive side.
Perki-Perk
DieHard Texan!
I guarantee you that if we make a Super Bowl run, there's no way in hell McNair let's Phillips walk!
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
HTown2ATX
TexansMetalhead
Went top half only because of the D being an Albatross around the Offenses neck until I see otherwise on the field for 4 Q's in a REAL game.
Offense is Top 5, hell, Top 3 I think last year. I know the D has improved, but we haven't seen real, live, this game matters Football yet so I can't just go crazy over it.
But overall, as a team I think we are looking good so far.
Offense is Top 5, hell, Top 3 I think last year. I know the D has improved, but we haven't seen real, live, this game matters Football yet so I can't just go crazy over it.
But overall, as a team I think we are looking good so far.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I said top ten and here's why.
The question was about talent. Well, talent isn't production necessarily and I think if you've spent any time watching the Houston Texans during the Kubiak/Smith years you can see that we have significantly upgraded the talent here. When Kubiak arrived his first year was a typical one of new coach turnover. Those players aren't scattered around the league for the most part. They're gone. Guys that didn't make the team that year mostly were out of football. Now we read stories about how Frank Okam is a 370 pound monster in Tampa Bay and how Amobi Okoye is a big surprise in Chicago. David Anderson gets let go here and Denver's happy to have him. We are cycling players through this team who have a place in the league but can't necessarily unseat the people we have ahead of them.
We have talent. We have a lot of talent. Coaching, almost exclusively on the defensive side of the ball over the past 6 years has done a grave disservice to the team. We've been pouring the good stuff into the glass for years, it's just all been running out of the big gaping hole in the bottom called "bad coaching".
Hopefully things are as they seem and we're not doing that anymore.
The question was about talent. Well, talent isn't production necessarily and I think if you've spent any time watching the Houston Texans during the Kubiak/Smith years you can see that we have significantly upgraded the talent here. When Kubiak arrived his first year was a typical one of new coach turnover. Those players aren't scattered around the league for the most part. They're gone. Guys that didn't make the team that year mostly were out of football. Now we read stories about how Frank Okam is a 370 pound monster in Tampa Bay and how Amobi Okoye is a big surprise in Chicago. David Anderson gets let go here and Denver's happy to have him. We are cycling players through this team who have a place in the league but can't necessarily unseat the people we have ahead of them.
We have talent. We have a lot of talent. Coaching, almost exclusively on the defensive side of the ball over the past 6 years has done a grave disservice to the team. We've been pouring the good stuff into the glass for years, it's just all been running out of the big gaping hole in the bottom called "bad coaching".
Hopefully things are as they seem and we're not doing that anymore.
Brandon420tx
Flounder
I'd say looking at natural talent wise, Defense is top 10, offense is bottom half. Our offense is overpowering because of our scheme, our only superior talented players are AJ and Foster (and tate) everyone else on offense is average to above average talent wise, which is not bad considering that its consistent across the board, which is more than most teams can say, and they all fit the system. On defense, we have alot of naturally talented players, who have been under bad schemes/coordinators. I'd say we have more naturally gifted athletes on defense than offense. Mario, Watt, Ryans, Cushing, Reed, and A. Smith.
80tothezone
Veteran
Well first off we are the youngest team in the NFL. I think maybe a lot of the talent has not completely developed but I think it is there, after this yr now that our roster isn't primarily made of rookies there are going to be several teams interested in several of our players. I think you are confusing talent with skill, I would agree that we are not one of the most skilled teams in the NFL but as far as raw talent, it is there... good news is now we got coaches on both sides of the ball that can develop that talent into a group of highly skilled players. I mean take the preseason for example our D was ranked #1 you don't get there without talent. Now your right in that we have not played a single snap of regular season football and it remains to be seen how developed our talent is in real games but from what I have seen so far the coaches have done a superb job of getting people to play at a level that they are capable of. And on O you forgot about schaub he is widely considered a top 10 qb, I think i even heard Rome mention it and you can hardly doubt it with the number he puts up.
Also I think on the OL thing the most important thing to consider is how they work as a unit, it is almost one position. I played OL and every OL on my team new the job of every o0ther OL for two reasons, one because if one man goes down you step in. Two because if one man miss takes your assignment you take his... Fact is they blocked for the leagues leading rusher and that means they got to have some skill, you can say system all you want but we had the same system on 09 and couldn't run at all.
Just a few weeks ago we're reading a story that has our OL ranked at 1 or 2 in disbelief.
Half of us want Jacoby Jones to replace Kevin Walter, the other half want to replace Jacoby with an UDFA.
2 weeks ago most of us didn't believe our starting fullback was suited for the job.
top 5 production, no doubt about it. top 5 talent...... eh.....
♪
80tothezone
Veteran
Gonna break it down by player on O Aj no doubt best in NFl, Walter very good in his role. OD top 10 talent maybe Top5 schaub top 10 for sure with more yet to come. Casey very talented and versatile as a fb and Te. Our back field speaks for it's self. JJ needs to be replaced. Our OL blocked for the league leading rusher and top 5 passer (by stats). Dickerson shows promise, jean showed a flash.
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run-david-run
All Pro
Everyone's missing the most obvious, fool-proof way to answer this question: where do we rank on Madden? :vincepalm:
I voted top 10. We're definitely a bad azz paper tiger. I'm hoping this year's version ends up with the production to put some real tiger, teeth and all, on the field.
I also don't think you can break up the three phases of the game into equal 1/3's. The O and D are in on 85+% of the plays. ST's are important, but you can consistently win with par/subpar play there easier than par/subpar play on O and/or D.
I also don't think you can break up the three phases of the game into equal 1/3's. The O and D are in on 85+% of the plays. ST's are important, but you can consistently win with par/subpar play there easier than par/subpar play on O and/or D.
I see your point about all three phases not being completely equal. But I'd go 40/40/20. The extra 5% (I know, hardly worth quibbling over but the game ain't 'til tomorrow
) is because I think having a dependable PK and decent punter are important. Having a PK you can depend on in the clutch could mean an extra win or two.
Having a decent punter that can give you good hang time and distance can win the field position "battle" in tight games.
Anything we can get out of our return teams is gravy.
That's a good point about special teams not factoring as heavily.
The less talented teams could very easily see 20% out of ST, so it could balance out quite well with the top 5 teams using St's only 5-10% of the time. Regardless, I think we agree that ST's don;t factor equally with SD's and SO's.I see your point about all three phases not being completely equal. But I'd go 40/40/20. The extra 5% (I know, hardly worth quibbling over but the game ain't 'til tomorrow
Having a PK you can depend on in the clutch could mean an extra win or two.
Having a decent punter that can give you good hang time and distance can win the field position "battle" in tight games.
Anything we can get out of our return teams is gravy.