Doppelganger
None
In the clash of NFL Owners vs NFL Players, which side are you on?
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- Thread starter Doppelganger
- Start date
Of all of the hundreds and hundreds of players in the NFL today, I wonder how many (if any at all), would be better off financially if weren't for the NFL ? On the other hand, the owners would pretty much be stinkin rich with or without the league I suspect ? All I'm saying is, the players had better not lose sight of what they have to lose and keep that foremost in their minds at all times as they proceed thru this process to reach a new CBA with the
NFL owners.
NFL owners.
Errant Hothy
Hypermediocrity
I'm with the owners, especially when it comes to opening the books for the players. If I asked my coporate masters to open the books, I'd be laughed out of their offices; and unlike the players a fair chunk of the company I work for shares are owned by the employees.
I understand the concerns on health care, both during and after their playing days; but it seems the owners agreed with them and were willing to make concessions in that direction.
The players lost all the trust I had with them when they made the first move to stop the process by decertifing.
On the other hand both sides are being greedy bastards.
I understand the concerns on health care, both during and after their playing days; but it seems the owners agreed with them and were willing to make concessions in that direction.
The players lost all the trust I had with them when they made the first move to stop the process by decertifing.
On the other hand both sides are being greedy bastards.
toronto
Hall of Fame
Neither. Both sides are gonna see a dramatic effect on diehards like me. I was a diehard MLB fan until 1994, and have NEVER been the same again. I was a bigtime NHL fan until they killed their season several years ago, and I have yet to buy a ticket to a game there since then, nor have I purchased any official NHL merchandise.
The NFL is no different to me, as much as I love it. I'll eventually get apathetic, move on and take years to regain passion for their sport.
The NFL is no different to me, as much as I love it. I'll eventually get apathetic, move on and take years to regain passion for their sport.
PapaL
Loose Screw
The owners opted out of the CBA years ago. That was the 1st move. Had they not done that, everyone would still be operating under that CBA.
I voted neither.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
In the poll, I voted for owners... as I was drafting my post for reasons why, I couldn't argue against one fact!
The NFL is a monopoly!!!
Alot of people, including myself, may say something like... "In my job, I'd get fired for asking my boss I deserve more 'piece of the pie'. Owners take all of the risk when purchasing an NFL team, therefore they have the right to dictate how much they want to play their players." I was going to go on and on down these lines...
But then I realized... if I feel my boss isn't paying me enough, I can simply quit and work elsewhere, doing the same thing. Therefore, they are encourage to keep salaries high to stay competitive. This doesn't hold true in the NFL, though. They have a Monopoly. NFL owners don't have to worry about the players quitting and playing for the Arena league, or the CFL. So I get the players' side as well.
Unfortunately, the only loser in all of this are the fans.
The NFL is a monopoly!!!
Alot of people, including myself, may say something like... "In my job, I'd get fired for asking my boss I deserve more 'piece of the pie'. Owners take all of the risk when purchasing an NFL team, therefore they have the right to dictate how much they want to play their players." I was going to go on and on down these lines...
But then I realized... if I feel my boss isn't paying me enough, I can simply quit and work elsewhere, doing the same thing. Therefore, they are encourage to keep salaries high to stay competitive. This doesn't hold true in the NFL, though. They have a Monopoly. NFL owners don't have to worry about the players quitting and playing for the Arena league, or the CFL. So I get the players' side as well.
Unfortunately, the only loser in all of this are the fans.
If your income was based upon a percentage of the company's revenue, I'm pretty darn sure you'd want to look at the books.
TEXANRED
Texan-American
Neither for me.
The NFL is a business nothing more.
To quote one of the greatest movies of all time:
The players have the right to want to make more money and the owners have the right to keep as much of their money. Anything less is socialism.
The real losers here is going to be Vegas.
The NFL is a business nothing more.
To quote one of the greatest movies of all time:
Joe Dirt said:
The players have the right to want to make more money and the owners have the right to keep as much of their money. Anything less is socialism.
The real losers here is going to be Vegas.
GNTLEWOLF
Rookie
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
So is soccer next for you?
Atleast the Houston 1836 errrrr Dynamo have won a championship.
I voted neither. Eventually, this is going to hurt everyone - the fans, the players, the owners and the NFL. I think more and more people share Toronto's view and just won't be as interested if and when the two groups decide to get along and go back to playing.
I can see both sides point of view and don't like either one of them.
I can see both sides point of view and don't like either one of them.
ATXtexanfan
Hall of Fame
my feelings as well
JimBaker488
Waterboy
Get real man ! Everybodys income ultimately is based upon the financial performance of their employer, assuming they work in the nongovernmental/private sector of the economy. And I'm also pretty darn sure if most people in the private sector told their employer they wanted to see his books, he'd tell them to look else where for employment.
Ranger Tom
All Pro
I just want football.
Doppelganger
None
Maybe its time for a triumphant return of the opening play scramble and
He Hate Me!
Maybe its time for a triumphant return of the XFL!
He Hate Me!
Maybe its time for a triumphant return of the XFL!
I guess more of America works for privately held corporations and individuals owners than I thought. I mean it has been a few years for me, but when I worked for places like Target, Wells Fargo and Nations Bank (I think now Bank of America), I was (or either could pretend to be) a stockholder and could get audited financial reports by just requesting it. In fact, Starbucks just sent the annual report(with audited financials) to me.
Audited financials at least with public corporations is a course of business. Now, I am not saying there was not funny money in the report, but for the most an individual could determine if the company was making more, making less money (probably what's happening with some of the NFL franchises) or not making money at all.
No , they dont have a monopoly , they may be the highest paying league but there are other leagues including the Arena and Canadian leagues .... the players do have options , those options are just less appealing than the NFL. They are options just the same.
Open the books ? ..... Hell no , an employee has no right to see that information.
I could easily see some teams losing money especially in smaller markets or those who's teams cant fill a stadium - Jacksonville ? Carolina ? Detroit ?
As for the players wanting a bigger piece of the profits , hell the leage minimum pays about 20 times the salary of the average American .... and most make that many times over. Sure they run the risk of injury but does that mean they can never work again ? ..... these people need to come back down to earth. So much for putting that college education they got for free to work.
Ummmmm....
You do realize that the players didn't really ask for a bigger piece of the profits...
The owners asked them to play more games and take less money.
I do not blame the players at all (doesn't mean I'm taking their side)...I can see why they would want to see the books and I can see why they don't just bend over and take it like some people want them to.
If I enter into a contract with someone and they come back and ask me to take less money because they are losing money, I'd want to know why too. Especially if they asked me to work a couple extra days as well...
It's business. Yes it sucks for the fans and for all those working class people spending their hard earned money, but I think people just want what works for them.
The fans don't care about the players anymore than the players and owners care about the fans. We just want to watch football, the owners want more money coming their way and the players don't want to take a step back.
Just a bunch of whining coming from all three angles.
JimBaker488
Waterboy
See the thing is AT you are talking apples and oranges here. The Houston Texans are a wholy owned corporation of Bob McNair and/or the McNair family, except perhaps for some very nominal interests held by some other prominent Houstonians. But the corporate entity is "privately held", whereas
the companies you're talking about are public companies that have their securities (stocks, bonds, etc), actively traded in the financial markets and as such they are required by the government (actually the SEC), to prepare and publish formal financial statements made available to the public.
toronto
Hall of Fame
I have kids - trust me, my time isn't as disposable as it once was. I also work for an all-sports network that shoves 500 regional NHL games down everyone's throats. I've never been busier at work either.
Best way I can add to what I already said is this.
Since 1994, I have yet to attend a MLB game. I've not bought any Astros gear, not even when they came so close winning the Series.
Since 2004, I have not bought any Leafs tickets (which are beyond expensive anyways). I have not spent a dime on merchandise.
I have about 10 NFL jerseys purchased in the last 5 years, and have been to a game almost every year, which I have happily paid for, and in most cases, flown to Nashville to get 'er done. That stops the second these guys deprive us all of their sport. They wanna test my loyalty? My track record suggests otherwise, and I'll bet there are millions like me. There are lots of things to do on Sundays in the fall, I'll re-discover them and move on.
Doppelganger
None
If you enter into a contract with someone,and they want you to take less you have a choice. You can choose to refuse to take less or accept the cut. If you refuse, you can try to continue working at the rate and try to work it out or walk.
The players chose to walk (i.e. decetify) in this case rather than continue negotiating. That is their choice and right. If they want to make a statement, the FAs can go play in the CFL or Arena league. The public will likely not accept it right away and it will take several seasons to become the more popular league (if it ever does). So, the players certainly have a choice.
That said, employees do have ever have the right to ever see the books of the employer.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
Here is the thing that I don't get: the whole arguement of whether or not employees have the right to see their employers financial statements.
Do you work for BP, Exxon, Chevron, Chase, Bank of America or any other publicly traded company? go to your company's website and you can probably find it. Its, get this, public info. If you can't find it there you can pay for it on the web.
I can understand if you are a small business employer and thats personal information, but as large as the NFL is what does it matter?
To me the whole situation sucks because they are 200 million per team on how to divide the money? Send it over here to the fans. Lower concession prices and ticket prices so a family of four can go to the game once a year without costing them an arm and a leg.
So many employers have stopped matching 401ks, layed off people, decreased wages for all employees, frozen pension funds, schools closing, police and fire departments running limited staff, etc. What audacity the players and owners have to squabble over a millions of dollars in these rough times when we are the ones paying for everything. Where is there financial sacrifice?
NFl player and owners - you suck.
Do you work for BP, Exxon, Chevron, Chase, Bank of America or any other publicly traded company? go to your company's website and you can probably find it. Its, get this, public info. If you can't find it there you can pay for it on the web.
I can understand if you are a small business employer and thats personal information, but as large as the NFL is what does it matter?
To me the whole situation sucks because they are 200 million per team on how to divide the money? Send it over here to the fans. Lower concession prices and ticket prices so a family of four can go to the game once a year without costing them an arm and a leg.
So many employers have stopped matching 401ks, layed off people, decreased wages for all employees, frozen pension funds, schools closing, police and fire departments running limited staff, etc. What audacity the players and owners have to squabble over a millions of dollars in these rough times when we are the ones paying for everything. Where is there financial sacrifice?
NFl player and owners - you suck.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
They got to look at 5 years of material, though not the level of detail they were demanding.
I see two problems with the union's request:
1. The union was determined to stand firm. The owners weren't claiming that there was an immediate threat to the league. So, nothing the union would see in the balance sheet would convince the union it should ask for less.
2. What the sheets would provide would be anecdotal evidence supporting the union's argument that the owners are wasteful with the money and should be better stewards.
There is not one scenario, other than proof the league was headed for immediate financial ruin, where showing the union each team's balance sheet would aid in collective bargaining. Not one.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
I agree with your philosophy. However, here's the problem: Unless you normally attend Jacksonville or Buffalo games, there are 10 other people that will buy that ticket you are choosing not to... And, the NFL players and owners count on that. Not to mention the fact that pro leagues are almost eager to cater less to the real fans and more towards corporate America. Perhaps they'll just remove another 500 seats and replace them with more suites to sell to the oil companies so they can party at the stadium and strike their own billion dollar deals.
Hagar
Drink up yall, its the Texans!
Exactly, I haven't paid for a baseball ticket since '94 and will never buy another ticket. I've been to a few games as a freebee but that's it.
Couldn't disagree more.
You're making it sound like the players are imbeciles and the owners are just so much more smarter....
If the owners can look at their books and determine that they are heading down a bad path, why couldn't they just present that evidence? I'm pretty sure there is someone smart enough on the players side to decipher the same information and come to a conclusion.
Another thing...Why not just show them the data or numbers? I understand that everything is "about the principal", but wouldn't that help to rapidly move the talks along? They would completely put the ball in the unions court....Examine the books...if you are really losing money or heading for that end, they will be able to see that and will have to make a move...The fans would know that the owners are being genuine and so would the players union.
I'm not really defending either side...just pointing out that they both share some fault. It's business.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
I don't doubt that the players' representatives are intelligent enough to understand the numbers. That's not the issue. The issue is that, like any union, it is an advocate for the players and, especially during moments like this, see ownership as its adversary. Therefore, any information gained will be used as evidence against the owners and not the begin of a conversation for compromise.
here's an example: Perhaps the books show a gradual decline in prophets over the past few years. But, maybe the balance sheet for the Titans show Bud Adams flying a private jet accross the country and it is being classified as a business expense. So, De. Smith brushes off the declining prophets by quickly deflecting it by pointing out wasteful spending by some owners and also some cooking of the books. All of a sudden, the real issue has been derailed.
Hagar
Drink up yall, its the Texans!
If you've put together and analyzed as many operating statements as I have you'll know that the interpretation of the information is in the eye of the beholder. Rarely, is the information so one sided as to be completely good or bad; you can either sing the praises of God or the damnation of the Devil, take your pick.
SheTexan
Hall of Fame
Not that it matters, but, I voted neither.
Looks like I'll get a little more interested in high school and college football. I've always loved high school ball anyway, and I'll have a granddaughter in high school next year, SOOOOOO, I'll still get my football fix. NO, it won't be the same, but, screw the NFL for screwing with the fans!!
Go LaPorte Bulldogs and A&M!!!! I'll be watching!
Looks like I'll get a little more interested in high school and college football. I've always loved high school ball anyway, and I'll have a granddaughter in high school next year, SOOOOOO, I'll still get my football fix. NO, it won't be the same, but, screw the NFL for screwing with the fans!!
Go LaPorte Bulldogs and A&M!!!! I'll be watching!
HTown2ATX
TexansMetalhead
I side with the players on this one.
The owners made the 1st move a couple years ago causing this mess, they want the players to give back money AND work/play 2 more games.
While it is one thing to say that the owners should not have to show their books, it's another to ask the employees to work more AND cut their pay AND say to the employees screw off you can't see our books.
Would we get laughed out of the office of our bosses if we demanded to see the books...probably.....
But in this case, if I was required to work more and take a pay cut.....I'd not only demand to see the books, but upon them refusing, I'd have to quit...matter of principal at that point.
The owners made the 1st move a couple years ago causing this mess, they want the players to give back money AND work/play 2 more games.
While it is one thing to say that the owners should not have to show their books, it's another to ask the employees to work more AND cut their pay AND say to the employees screw off you can't see our books.
Would we get laughed out of the office of our bosses if we demanded to see the books...probably.....
But in this case, if I was required to work more and take a pay cut.....I'd not only demand to see the books, but upon them refusing, I'd have to quit...matter of principal at that point.
History undermines your bolded point. Players were playing football well before they were getting paid and drawing huge crowds. Look into the history of the sport. Players played the game because they loved playing the game. They played the game in muddy fields, in spite of a lack of health care and trainers and large stadiums and all of that. Watch NFL Films to see the grainy images of guys playing because they loved to play the game. I have little doubt that the game of football would continue if the NFL folded today.
Plus, every one of current players played the game well before they got paid, through little league, middle school, high school, and college. They love playing the game like any other athlete playing their sport. It is just silly to act like they would not play the game if owners or fans were not around. History clearly reveals otherwise.
The sad fact of the matter is that the money comes from EVERYONE'S pockets, even those that never watch a down of football. With TAXPAYER FINANCED stadiums, all citizens live with the repercussions of finite resources being poured into these luxury stadiums. Even taking into account the financing schemes of taxing hotels and rentals, that money could still have been used for improvement of critical infrastructure that benefits everyone.
In addition, EVERYONE pays for advertising in products, regardless if they watch the NFL. And advertisement is what is driving much of the revenue.
This league is not a example of the real world, and I find it a bit of folly to act like it resembles anything like the real world. This is an ENTERTAINMENT industry. Let's quit the disingenuous comparisons to the average working person.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
I voted neither as well... Eff 'em, both!
TD
Super Bowl Mascot
Siding with the players.
There was a CBA in place...the owners opted out of it.
The owners claimed they opted out because they weren't as profitable as projected. Seems fair to ask them to prove it. Especially since the revenues are there.
Just from what I have read, the owners have been planning on this from the get-go. The TV contract they negotiated supports that. Their sporadic attendance with the mediators supports it.
I think the owners miscalculated here and will likely eventually cave on other issues to avoid producing audited financial statements. Not so much because of the players, but rather the taxpayers who are going **** bricks when they see the profit margins they have been subsidizing in black and white.
There was a CBA in place...the owners opted out of it.
The owners claimed they opted out because they weren't as profitable as projected. Seems fair to ask them to prove it. Especially since the revenues are there.
Just from what I have read, the owners have been planning on this from the get-go. The TV contract they negotiated supports that. Their sporadic attendance with the mediators supports it.
I think the owners miscalculated here and will likely eventually cave on other issues to avoid producing audited financial statements. Not so much because of the players, but rather the taxpayers who are going **** bricks when they see the profit margins they have been subsidizing in black and white.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I don't know why people don't get this.
Way too much misinformation out there by both sides.
Doppelganger
None
I would love to see the team have an event where there is a player signing autographs and the fans no show.
Something like this
or this
It would tell both sides not to take US the fans for granted. They get big money becuase we allow it.
Something like this
or this
It would tell both sides not to take US the fans for granted. They get big money becuase we allow it.
TD
Super Bowl Mascot
You got a link for that? There is a HUGE difference between "selected financial data" and financial statements.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
TD
Super Bowl Mascot
OK...found that article..
Hard to tell exactly what the owners are offering, but clearly its less than full financials. The problem with not providing full financial statements, is that its too easy to hide information with creative accounting, related party transactions, etc... I am going to go out on a limb and say all the owners and the league have full audited financial statements (complete with disclosures) prepared for their banks and/or investors. You can't really hide anything in those without committing fraud, so its not surprising that's what the union is pressing for.
At the same time I will be SHOCKED if the owners produce them. Once they started getting leaked, all hell would break loose.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I'm totally with the owners here. Here is why.
1. NFL players and NBA players are some of the most greedy, immature, and over paid athletes alive. Baseball players are as well, but they don't waste all their money away nearly as much, aren't arrested as much, and don't have near the egos that NBA and NFL players do. That being said, I'd almost like it if the season were pushed away in hopes that some of the NFL players could see how well they have it and stop acting like a bunch of spoiled brats. Owners will always be rich whether it was in this business or some other business. They earned their keep already and already built empires so they're a little more deserving to me. It's the fans that make up this sport. We live and die to watch it. I don't think that the athletes today hardly understand or care about that. SO many of them buy bling, 5 cars, several houses, and support their entourages with gifts and everything else. They have no right to be bitching right now. They're making a gazillion times more money than the early pioneers of this sport ever made in the 60's and 70's who didn't have all these great doctors and endorsement deals that these other clowns get now days.
A lockout just might be what the doctor ordered. Bring in some new players and some athletes that can appreciate the history of this sport and what makes it available for them which is the fans.
1. NFL players and NBA players are some of the most greedy, immature, and over paid athletes alive. Baseball players are as well, but they don't waste all their money away nearly as much, aren't arrested as much, and don't have near the egos that NBA and NFL players do. That being said, I'd almost like it if the season were pushed away in hopes that some of the NFL players could see how well they have it and stop acting like a bunch of spoiled brats. Owners will always be rich whether it was in this business or some other business. They earned their keep already and already built empires so they're a little more deserving to me. It's the fans that make up this sport. We live and die to watch it. I don't think that the athletes today hardly understand or care about that. SO many of them buy bling, 5 cars, several houses, and support their entourages with gifts and everything else. They have no right to be bitching right now. They're making a gazillion times more money than the early pioneers of this sport ever made in the 60's and 70's who didn't have all these great doctors and endorsement deals that these other clowns get now days.
A lockout just might be what the doctor ordered. Bring in some new players and some athletes that can appreciate the history of this sport and what makes it available for them which is the fans.
I'm totally for the record companies. Screw these bands, with their parties and groupies and jamming on stage. They are sooo out-of-touch with average fans who buys their cds and concert shirts and goes to their shows.
See how funny it sounds when applied to other entertainers?
See how funny it sounds when applied to other entertainers?
Back in the 70's and before .... many players had to work actual JOBS on top of playing football.
I read something interesting today - the big sticking point is that the owners refuse to open their books - I wouldnt open mine either. Its not my employee's business how much profit I show or how much of a loss I accumulate. Now if the players were "Shareholders" that would be a totally different situation but thats not the case - forget seeing the books. You are not partners , You are employee's.
As I understand it , they were not close to an agreement - It was the players decision to walk away from negotiations.
toronto
Hall of Fame
I couldn't disagree more with you on NFL players - as someone that has dealt with them I feel I can comment. The differences between a NFL contract (non-guaranteed), the lifespan of their career, and the likelihood of physical health issues after their career is much more paramount than a NBA or MLB player. For every Albert Haynesworth, there a ton of 'pluggers' that fight to stay in the league and are incredibly kind with their time for the media and fans. Many players I've met on the Buffalo Bills (a team I can't stand BTW) are down to earth decent guys, and many of them better have a second career path once their playing days are over.
The NFL owners are desperate to rekindle a 1950s-level era in terms of their control, and it was their call to rip up their current CBA and bring this armageddon to all of us. The players were fine with the current situation. When you consider the amount of money Fox, CBS, NBC and ABC/ESPN pay them, then throw in all other revenue generated, then add in the incredible rise in franchise value (the average team is worth 900M) since 1990, if an owner feels unsatisfied, then sell your team, make hundreds of millions of dollars and roll around in that naked.
They are the crybabies in this equation, and I feel absolutely no empathy for their 'situation.' They already had players by the balls, and now want to cut them off.
scourge
Digression King
I grow tired of the "but, but, their contract isn't guaranteed. They can be let go at any time..." Is your job guaranteed? Mine's not. Maybe they should actually try and learn something while in college instead of going through the motions just to get to where they are. "But the average career of an NFL player is only 3 years and can have lasting damage to their bodies.." That's weak, because they know this when they take the job. These are the 15 most dangerous jobs in America. Football isn't one of them, but a job I once held is.
It is a privilege to play a sport for a living, not a right. Music groups/bands/artists/etc don't go asking what kind of profits the record companies are making. I sure don't, either. If the players feel they are treated unfairly they can always find new jobs that apply to their degree(probably communications or physical education). Bring in the scrubs, I say. Sign UFL players, Arena, whomever and get back to playing. I pay to watch a team, not a player.
Are the owners right in asking for more money? I don't know, probably, and don't really care anymore. Just bring football back, regardless of who the players are.
toronto
Hall of Fame
No my job isn't guaranteed, in the sense that if I do a lousy job, it will show on air and I'll embarrass the hell out of my network. I suspect if it had happened 3 or 4 times I would get canned, with whatever severance one gets for 3 and a half years service.
I don't fully SUPPORT the players - I just believe this entire charade was orchestrated by the owners. The players were fine with the contract and if I have to choose a side that was more likely to 'honestly' collectively bargain - I believe the players were - they had MUCH more to lose by not being flexible.
At the end of the day I'm no different than you. Pissed at all of them and wondering who I get to shoot first for making me talk to my wife on Sundays during the fall.