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AJ:Texans GM: 'this is my first exposure to a 3-4'
- Thread starter Wolf
- Start date
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
How's that make me feel? - like big whoop, not surprising and I assumed he was going to be relying heavily on Phillips for the transition.
Yeah, I would rather he be honest than try to blow smoke. Hopefully, we have someone who knows what to look for in defensive players now.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
He's actually entering his 5th season as a NFL G.M.. but yeah, there's not a lot of confidence
There's probably many, many guys in important positions in the NFL including other GMs who have virtually no experience with the 3-4 defense, or for that matter many might be just as inexperienced with the 4-3 having worked almost exclusively in their career with the 3-4.
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
I'm not worried. It might even be a good thing. Giving Wade Phillips more decision making power for defensive personnel ensures that we're getting real change on this team.
SAMURAITEXAN
All Pro
Yeah, it's sounds like Rick likely to let Wade direct the defensive draft input as well as FA. I feel much better if Rick lets Wade handle defensive side of decision/s.
Go Texans!!!
This was mentioned in one gazillion threads about Wade/3-4 etc. Not saying anything that we did not already know.
It's Smith's 5th draft, but he has been the Texans GM since June 2006. So 2011 (if there is a season) will be Smith's 6th as Texans GM.
I was able to listen to a portion of the interview. What gave me pause was Smith's suggestion that the scouts had to learn what to look for in a 3-4 defender. Maybe Smith should buy everyone in the organization a 3-4 Defense for Dummies DVD?
I can see this will work out just swell.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I kind of feel like going into something with zero experience doing it is basic Texans philosophy at this point. It's to be expected.
Just like I expect them to fall flat on their faces next year and then Chinese fire-drill around each other trying to figure out why their stupid approach to damn near everything they do didn't work for the 6th straight year!
Just like I expect them to fall flat on their faces next year and then Chinese fire-drill around each other trying to figure out why their stupid approach to damn near everything they do didn't work for the 6th straight year!
markn
All Pro
Our personnel department has drafted 7 of the last 8 first round picks for defense. Ultimately this has culminated in a defense which has redefined the definition of 'suck', with performance statistics that are historically bad.
Given that, perhaps being completely unprepared and ignorant to the scheme for which they are drafting for is the best possible scenario?
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
What gives me more pause is that they evidently either didn't finish reading 4-3 Defense for Dummies or require an accompanying course to improve their reading comprehension.
JimBaker488
Waterboy
The biggest problem with drafting guys for the 3-4, which includes DLine and
outside LB personnel, is that there are so few 3-4 systems in college. Personnel evaluators are therefor left in the uncomfortable position of having to "project" how for example, a smallish or "tweener" 4-3 college DE would play as a 3-4 outside backer in the NFL ? Texans fans know about that risk from the Texans first regime when Capers & Fangio payed a premium to move up and draft Jason Babin in the first round.
outside LB personnel, is that there are so few 3-4 systems in college. Personnel evaluators are therefor left in the uncomfortable position of having to "project" how for example, a smallish or "tweener" 4-3 college DE would play as a 3-4 outside backer in the NFL ? Texans fans know about that risk from the Texans first regime when Capers & Fangio payed a premium to move up and draft Jason Babin in the first round.
Even scarier....they won't switch out the books, since they still have a 3 and a 4 on them. Cost Savings people!
Even less than whoop....
We've got people here with no experience picking the best fit for a 3-4 we don't fully understand (Wade's version).
How hard can it be?
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Charlie Casserly sat in the 06 war room, Smith did not start as Texans GM until after the 2006 draft in June (draft is in April). So far Rick should be judged on his work 2007-2010 that's four drafts, 2011 would be his 5th here.
That's what I said.
I'm certainly not giving Smith credit for the best draft (2006) in team history. If you're going to judge Smith strictly on drafts, I think you'd have to give him a grad of meh. But, he also should be graded on free agency, and ultimately, the teams record. In total, he should get a failing grade. Yet, he remains employed. Go figure.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Yeah, but since it's only his 5th draft, I count that as his 5th year. To me a G.M.'s new year starts at the draft and at the start of the offseason.
JimBaker488
Waterboy
Right, that goes to Casserly.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
The article is pretty good if you read the whole thing, but I think the best observation from it all was this:
I don't think it's the scout's fault, but rather the GM's fault for making poor selections. If they need a GM who is more familiar with the 3-4 defense and also has experience with the WCO, then shouldn't they replace him? Why do they need to go through another season with this guy when he's already proven he doesn't do well drafting for the 4-3 that he supposedly knows inside and out? If he's just picking the guys Wade wants, then he's nothing more than an overpaid figurehead.
I don't think it's the scout's fault, but rather the GM's fault for making poor selections. If they need a GM who is more familiar with the 3-4 defense and also has experience with the WCO, then shouldn't they replace him? Why do they need to go through another season with this guy when he's already proven he doesn't do well drafting for the 4-3 that he supposedly knows inside and out? If he's just picking the guys Wade wants, then he's nothing more than an overpaid figurehead.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
I would love to know how their process really works behind the scenes but it would seem, since nobody is held accountable, that they're all in together & use the majority rules method? No doubt this draft they will lean heavily on Wade Phillips with his experience running the 3-4. I just don't envision Smith being the decision maker, more of a moderator who coordinates departments.
Shocking response
Given Gary and Ricks past draft record on the defensive side of the ball. Phillips should be the main voice in the war room. When it comes to drafting defensive players.
What actually is Rick Smiths job?
Whatever that job is, he's not very good at it. LOL
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GP
Go Texans!
As long as Wade actually ends up with that power/control.
Which, to me, is a 50-50 chance.
Habits are hard to change. Let's see if Wade has to swim upstream or if he gets to coast downstream.
I have a hard time thinking Wade Phillips is going to come in here, in year 1, and be given the sort of control he OUGHT to have. As someone who has worked for four different organizations over a 12-year span, I know very well how hard it is to come in and try to change the status quo. Oh sure, they say 'You are new here, we want your fresh eyes for things..." but then you start showing them where they've been wrong and how they can be better...and before long the honeymoon is over and you're expected to be assimilated by the Borg. Happens all the time. Once you start showing someone their weaknesses, they start to have animosity toward you...they start looking for ways to shut you down and make you adopt the corporate culture.
The only way an organization can make significant changes is if the top of the foodchain decides, FULLY, to make a 100% full-blown effort to reform things. I have never seen that actually happen in the time I have spent in those four organization. I see a lot of lip service, but the enthusiasm to change will die out and the habitual return to normalcy will win out in the end. It's what's known, it's what's cozy, it's what comes naturally. We're by and large a creature who seeks the path of least resistance. And we don't like our cheese moved. Keep my cheese where it's at. Leave it there. I know where it's at. It's easy to find. There's no threat to me then.
McNair, via NOT firing Kubiak...has signaled reform is likely not the soup of the day. It's a tweak. Wade Phillips, in all likelihood, will find out that its easier to swim downstream. My two cents.
This is why some soapers are not just angry people. Sometimes, they're people who know a bad setup when they see one. A place where the wheels of progress are slow to turn.
Cant rep you
It seems as though you've been thru a few of the corporate wars and yes most of the soapers can tell a bad deal when they see one.
BoB's counting on those kind of soapers being in the minority. So far BoB's been able to pull it off. But the amount of disgruntled fans are growing by leaps and bounds. It's going to be ugly if BoB's kids start 0-3,1-4. Reliant will be rocking in a nasty way.
Fans like some on this MB will be talking about how fans have no class and all of that BS. But fans tend to act that way when in yr 6 they realize BoB has been selling them a bill of goods. I can already feel the fans unrest and the season hasn't even started yet. I mean how many of the fans truly believe BoB's bandaid (Phillips) is going to work?
It seems as though you've been thru a few of the corporate wars and yes most of the soapers can tell a bad deal when they see one.
BoB's counting on those kind of soapers being in the minority. So far BoB's been able to pull it off. But the amount of disgruntled fans are growing by leaps and bounds. It's going to be ugly if BoB's kids start 0-3,1-4. Reliant will be rocking in a nasty way.
Fans like some on this MB will be talking about how fans have no class and all of that BS. But fans tend to act that way when in yr 6 they realize BoB has been selling them a bill of goods. I can already feel the fans unrest and the season hasn't even started yet. I mean how many of the fans truly believe BoB's bandaid (Phillips) is going to work?
I remember it wasn't too long ago, that we bragged about the talent & depth on this team, about the good work Smithiak has been doing.
Malloy
Hall of Fame
Jup. Not worried (about this aspect of the team).
speedfreek
All Pro
more evidence that the gm is clueless
TJ
TJ
TimeKiller
Guest
lolz
nooob
nooob
Some bragged
Others were able to look thru the PR and see the truth.
All you have to do is look at Rick and Garys track record in the war room. It speaks volumes about where this team is at.
My thoughts exactly. While I appreciate Rick Smith's honesty, I think it is simply naive as fans to act like his lack of education for the defense that he needs to acquire talent for will not have any impact on the final product. It is typical of the Texans fan base, though. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but there is always a willingness to overlook obvious flaws in the system with a nice slathering of optimistic homerism.
Rick Smith is an average GM, at best. How many teams do you honestly think would hire him as their GM? I think the answer is the same as Casserly since he was let go from the Texans staff.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I called for Rick Smith to be fired but I still don't see this as a defect in the system. He is a defect in the system but not lack of having worked with a particular defense. Teams changing from one to the other don't routinely fire their GM as part of the process. Heck the Redskins decided to have a GM for the first time in years and filled the position with Bruce Allen who has no 3-4 experience even though they knew they were going to a 3-4. The Broncos switched to a 3-4 and kept a GM with no 3-4 experience. Same thing with Green Bay. The Bills did get a GM with 3-4 experience as part of sweeping the entire old regime out but that decision was made before they knew they were going to a 3-4. Can you think of any examples where a GM was fired (and wasn't already going to be fired) just to facilitate a switch on D?
Are you implying that his inexperience and complete lack of knowledge about the 34 system will not have a negative impact on the final product?
This is the same brainiac GM that told us last year that our secondary would be fine.
If you agree that Rick Smith is a defect in the system, then his ignorance can only serve to support that defectiveness.
And while I appreciate your examples, I have found that what other teams do is completely irrelevant as it pertains to the Houston Texans. After all, this is a franchise that keeps a 37-43 head coach who has produced one winning season as his sole highlight in five years. (Which makes your example of Green Bay even more reaching as they would have fired this entire staff two seasons ago.)
Perhaps Wade will have more say, but that is not confirmed and is purely optimistic speculation by fans at this point in time. I certainly hope this is the case, but I do have to wonder if Rick Smith will be able to contain his ego in order to allow Wade to wield that power. This remains to be seen.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
First off he has no hands on experience. That isn't the same as a complete lack of knowledge. Dude has been around football for a long time. The difference between 3-4 and 4-3 is being blown out of proportion as well. This isn't like the difference between knowing English and German. We are basically talking differences at OLB, DE and DT. But yes more knowledge is generally a good thing. Of course he has a DC with a tremendous amount of knowledge.
My implications were two fold. First it seems like unrealistic carping if other teams don't do it and second their not doing it indicates a collective agreement there isn't sufficient difference between the two systems to treat GM's as they can only operate within one.
There is nothing reaching about Green Bay - it is a factual observation.
There is absolutely no basis for believing Wade won't be heavily involved. He is a McNair pick. He is the resident expert. McNair and his son are present for a lot of this process. I find it very hard, close to impossible, to believe if Wade and Smith disagree on a player that one of the McNairs isn't going to say "we will go with Wade's guy." To think otherwise is purely pessimistic speculation which flies in the face of logic on the topic.
"differences at OLB, DE and DT".... yeah, almost half of the defense...
I'm just talking from the perspective of what he said:
"this is really my first exposure to a 3-4 from a personal standpoint."
You say the differences in systems are minimal, but then list the entire defensive line as a main difference. "Games won and lost in the trenches" ring a bell? I see the line as a huge component that can have the biggest impact on games.
Our line has consistently been garbage, so what makes you think that Smith can fix what he's never had right to begin with? Remember, this is the same GM that thought Okoye was a great pick and not a reach.
And yes, Wade has a tremendous amount of knowledge in the system, but this isn't his team. He's an assistant coach. This is is the team of Gary and Rick, so who knows how much power the new guy gets to have from the beginning.
Yes, it is reaching. The difference between Ted Thompson and Rick Smith are tremendous. But I guess apples and oranges are both fruit so they are both the same.
Rick Smith has already proven to be a subpar GM. That is a factual observation based upon results. Having this same below average GM find talent for a system that is new to him doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the obvious flaws at work.
No basis? How about the M.O. of the franchise the past nine years?
So, let's go with your perspective that he's a McNair pick so he gets all the power he wants to build his defense. Do you honestly think that Gary's and Rick's egos are just going to politely step aside in the war room while Wade basically becomes a defacto head coach in personnel decisions? Talk about flying in the face of logic.
It's more optimistically delusional to think that they will magically morph into something that they've never been. Have they changed the scouts? Has the rest of the FO that has consistently produced crappy teams been changed?
I do not believe that this team has the support system in place for Wade to just waltz in and take full control in every aspect of the defense. If Wade truly has that much power now, why keep Gary around? This is illogical.
I think you're putting too much into what 'cak & Smith said. Of course there's going to be an impact..... but you guys jump on the Texans for making stupid decisions, even though it's the same decision every other franchise would make. Green Bay is the flavor of the month around here, one time it was the Jets, one time it was the Ravens, and once it's been the Steelers. If anyone says, Green Bay did it this way, or the Ravens did it this way, or "this is the same thing Rex Ryan did.""differences at OLB, DE and DT".... yeah, almost half of the defense...
I'm just talking from the perspective of what he said:
"this is really my first exposure to a 3-4 from a personal standpoint."
You say the differences in systems are minimal, but then list the entire defensive line as a main difference. "Games won and lost in the trenches" ring a bell? I see the line as a huge component that can have the biggest impact on games.
Then you want to change the subject about how those teams did things ours didn't.
I don't think that's the way fact vs opinion works. It's not a fact because you feel your opinion is true.
Gary has always been the man. On offense anyway. He'll say this is the guy I want, or that is the guy I need. Rick will say, this guy is the same, or we can get him later..... that's the way it went in 2008, remember Gary was afraid Rick was going to try to trade down and still get Brown (who everyone here thinks we reached for).
It will be the same for Wade. This is the guy I want. I doubt Rick Smith will override Wade & say this is the guy you're going to get. If he's there at 11, or 44, or whatever, Rick is going to get him, unless he thinks he can trade down and get someone else.
That kind of screwed us in 2008, we didn't get our RB. Gary & Smith said after they missed in the second, they felt they could get equal talent later..... which kept dropping till later........ till they eventually got Jeremiah Johnson & Arian Foster undrafted. Signed Arian to two years right away.
I think it will be an issue, that our scouts had been looking for something totally different all year long. But Wade's been here long enough, that it might not be too big of an issue.
I'd love to get some first round talent on offense... & spend the rest on defense. I think Rick will have the "power" to do something like that. But other than that, I think he's going to work with Wade to get the guy Wade wants.
You win counselor, everything is going to be peachy in Texan land.
If I ever need a lawyer I want you representing me. Based on 5/9 yrs of facts that this is a dysfunctional franchise. Your being able to defend the moves that BoB has made in a logical manner amazes me. You're truly gifted in your field.
Even though BoB's newest experiment is going to = fail. I love how you can pick a side of an argument and nitpick the finest of details to support your argument. Great job
I truly mean this as a compliment.
Puh-leez, dood. Enough of your sprinkle covered dog turds. They always taste like crap.
37-43 is FACT. You can spin this until you're blue in the face, but the results speak for themselves.
Please enlighten the class with the tremendous job that Rick Smith has done as GM of the Houston Texans.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
Puh-leez, dood. Enough of your sprinkle covered dog turds. They always taste like crap.
37-43 is FACT. You can spin this until you're blue in the face, but the results speak for themselves.
Please enlighten the class with the tremendous job that Rick Smith has done as GM of the Houston Texans.
I think Rick Smith is actually 31-33, but still, I believe 'subpar' is an accurate description. He certainly isn't a successful GM if we're talking wins and losses. How someone could imply he is an 'above average GM' is beyond me. He's at the very best average, and so far a failure in terms of playoff wins.
Ted Thompson lacked experience in the 3-4 as a GM. But, he did play LB in the 3-4 for 10 seasons in the NFL. And he played under Bum Phillips as a 3-4 LB at SMU. So the 3-4 wasn't a completely new experience, as it is to Rick Smith.
The discussion is concerning Rick Smith's comments regarding the newness of the 3-4. Had Smith said, "The 3-4? No big deal, it's not so different", as you have suggested, then we would be having a different discussion. But, it was Smith himself who initiated the concerns of his lack of knowledge regarding the defense.
Rick Smith was around the 4-3 all of his collegiate and professional life. And he still failed to bring together the talent required to build a successful 4-3 defense. It's understandable how some are now concerned in regards to his ability to put together a defense he has never worked with prior.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Observing that GM's are not normally considered D specific and are not fired over a D system change isn't a defense of Rick Smith's performance, McNair's decision to keep him or Kubiak or a prediction for the team's future performance.
Puh-leez, dood. Enough of your sprinkle covered dog turds. They always taste like crap.
37-43 is FACT. You can spin this until you're blue in the face, but the results speak for themselves.
Please enlighten the class with the tremendous job that Rick Smith has done as GM of the Houston Texans.
I think it remains to be seen. Did he or did he not get Gary the players he wanted?
Are they complete crap? At the end of 2009, we didn't think so.. Let's see what they do with a "real" DC... would have been nice, I know, to see how they'd do with a real HC...maybe next time.
No, he has been the GM since June, 2006. The teams record is 37-43 over that time period.
That makes sense.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Hmmm, thought it was the 4-6 days. Scratch Green Bay then - good catch.
I don't believe anything Smith said would have made it go away. People are in a feeding frenzy of criticism right now. If he had said as you suggested the conversation would have just been shifted to dumb SOB is too arrogant and ignorant to recognize his own lack of knowledge. And I never said no big deal, only that it isn't a big enough deal that GM's are changed over it.
Yes it is understandable.