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Video of my least favorite Texan: meet Mario Williams

dalemurphy

dalemurphy

Hall of Fame
Alright. So, I have jumped of the Kubiak bandwagon and am ready for some new coaching. But, that being said, some of the players clearly deserve blame for their performance this season (particularly on defense). Other than Antonio Smith, it is difficult to praise any member of the defense. But, I certainly found where to focus my hostility. Meet #90, Mario Williams, 285 lbs. of sculpted sh*t!!

Texans Bull Blog: Mario doesn't Give a Damn!
 
We met mario at the training camp signing session and Mario seemed to be bothered by us..by us I mean my then 5 yr old son. Best Texans that day Sean Cody and Travis Johnson..from then my opinion of Mario..meh
 
Man, you are going to catch **** for this.

But you are right. Mario has the physical skills to be as good as he wants to be. He is possibly the most athletic player in the NFL. However, he does not care. The handful of plays a game he does care, is breathtaking.

Mario is an above average DE, who most teams probably want. My problem with him is that he could be the best DE in the NFL, but does not seem to want it.
 
rmartin65 said:
Man, you are going to catch **** for this.

But you are right. Mario has the physical skills to be as good as he wants to be. He is possibly the most athletic player in the NFL. However, he does not care. The handful of plays a game he does care, is breathtaking.

Mario is an above average DE, who most teams probably want. My problem with him is that he could be the best DE in the NFL, but does not seem to want it.
Click to expand...

I agree... I'll say this, also, if we had another Antonio Smith on the D-line instead of Mario Williams, we'd be better against the run and QBs would have less time to throw the ball.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
Please tell me there is an agenda, otherwise this is a bad post based on the video presented IMO.
Click to expand...

No agenda... other than the fact that it is usually effort that makes a defense good. And, Mario gives minimum effort on way too many plays. I would be shocked if most people can't see that on the video we're presenting, particularly when watching Antonio Smith in the same frame work 3X as hard.
 
:rolleyes: Good ole Murphster. Hypes up players who don't make it in the NFL and rips players that are actually pretty good.

Who's your favorite Texans player? My guess would be Tim Jamison?
 
HOU-TEX said:
:rolleyes: Good ole Murphster. Hypes up players who don't make it in the NFL and rips players that are actually pretty good.

Who's your favorite Texans player? My guess would be Tim Jamison?
Click to expand...

LOVE Tim Jamison!!

Seriously, though, my favorite defensive player is clearly Antonio Smith. How could it not be?

By the way, I'm not saying that Mario is a poor DE, I'm saying he is giving poor effort.
 
In all those plays on that video, Mario is going all out. I think Mario just disappears at times because of his lack of moves, not his lack of effort.
 
dalemurphy said:
LOVE Tim Jamison!!

Seriously, though, my favorite defensive player is clearly Antonio Smith. How could it not be?

By the way, I'm not saying that Mario is a poor DE, I'm saying he is giving poor effort.
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Serious question... how can you tell he is giving poor effort? Is it because he doesn't beat his man every play? Shouldn't that pro on the other side of the line get some credit for doing his job occassionally? He is also getting paid millions to be one of the best in the world.

Not saying you are wrong, but I don't understand how you can see inside his head and his heart.
 
dalemurphy said:
LOVE Tim Jamison!!

Seriously, though, my favorite defensive player is clearly Antonio Smith. How could it not be?

By the way, I'm not saying that Mario is a poor DE, I'm saying he is giving poor effort.
Click to expand...

I've stated my concerns on Mario in the past and definitely think he can get better. However, your thread title states he's your "least favorite Texan". I can't figure how anyone could come to that conclusion given how many players there are to choose from. Okoye? Pollard? Wilson? KJ? etc.
 
HOU-TEX said:
I've stated my concerns on Mario in the past and definitely think he can get better. However, your thread title states he's your "least favorite Texan". I can't figure how anyone could come to that conclusion given how many players there are to choose from. Okoye? Pollard? Wilson? KJ? etc.
Click to expand...

It is intentionally a little reactionary. Because, I'm feeling quite reactionary after these past two devastating losses... But, to your question:

Okoye- just isn't that good. I think he's been significantly better this season than the past two. But, I'm not much of a fan. If you recall, I was screaming about starting Deljuan over him last year.
Pollard- gives great effort, but can be a bonehead
Wilson- He's a servicable, older FS. I have very little tied into him. I'm indifferent, really. I wish he was a backup.
KJ- He's a rookie. I like the guy and hope he can turn it around. He's trying. I wish Reeves was starting or Molden had been given a shot by now. I also wish our safeties played better. That would help him.
 
TexCanada said:
In all those plays on that video, Mario is going all out. I think Mario just disappears at times because of his lack of moves, not his lack of effort.
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I don't see it. He's hand-slapping with TEs that weigh 50 lbs less and aren't particularly good blockers for TEs. He's standing erect with his arms extended and creating very little damage to the blocker or the play, in general. It seems clear to me. Watch Smith.
 
dalemurphy said:
I don't see it. He's hand-slapping with TEs that weigh 50 lbs less and aren't particularly good blockers for TEs. He's standing erect with his arms extended and creating very little damage to the blocker or the play, in general. It seems clear to me. Watch Smith.
Click to expand...

How do you know his assignment on the play?
 
dalemurphy said:
It is intentionally a little reactionary. Because, I'm feeling quite reactionary after these past two devastating losses... But, to your question:

Okoye- just isn't that good. I think he's been significantly better this season than the past two. But, I'm not much of a fan. If you recall, I was screaming about starting Deljuan over him last year.
Pollard- gives great effort, but can be a bonehead
Wilson- He's a servicable, older FS. I have very little tied into him. I'm indifferent, really. I wish he was a backup.
KJ- He's a rookie. I like the guy and hope he can turn it around. He's trying. I wish Reeves was starting or Molden had been given a shot by now. I also wish our safeties played better. That would help him.
Click to expand...

He turns around all the time, the problem is that he falls on his ass half the time he does it.
 
even julius peppers gets dominated in some games! im gonna give my theory about this.... take his size and the size of julius peppers and the amount of effort it take to move a body that size. so these guys are gonna gas out from time to time! sometimes there bodies might not respond as well on some days... there pro athletes but they still have human bodies and sometimes the human body just doesnt function the way you want it to no matter who you are
 
dalemurphy said:
I don't see it. He's hand-slapping with TEs that weigh 50 lbs less and aren't particularly good blockers for TEs. He's standing erect with his arms extended and creating very little damage to the blocker or the play, in general. It seems clear to me. Watch Smith.
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I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all, but I really don't see it in that video. The only times he isn't busting his ass off to get to the QB was on the run plays.
 
TexCanada said:
I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all, but I really don't see it in that video. The only times he isn't busting his ass off to get to the QB was on the run plays.
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How do you explain the stark contrast between A.Smith and Mario in the game. Smith is getting more attention and is way more productive. Do you think he's more talented?

Not only that, but there is a tangible element to effort that one can see on the field, I think. Mario either is very, very stiff as an athlete, or he's not giving effort like Smith is. Is that your argument, that Mario is a stiff athlete? I could buy that. Maybe that's why he disappears so often.
 
As far as Mario is concerned, I wish he would stop running around the outside of the pocket. I never see him cut to the middle of the pocket or use a spin move to get inside to pressure the QB. I see so many opportunities for him to do this, but he never does it. It's like he has no idea how to do it.
 
You mean Mario "The caged animal?" Williams?

No wait that kind of makes sense....he's an animal, no doubt. He's an animal who can do as much as an animal can do in a cage.
 
Honestly I think he's hurt. His play recently reminds me of all the other times he's quietly played through injuries.
 
fiasco west said:
Honestly I think he's hurt. His play recently reminds me of all the other times he's quietly played through injuries.
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I think he may be also. If he has groin/ and lower abdominal issues, then that would explain the arm fighting and the lack of explosion play to play.
 
dalemurphy said:
How do you explain the stark contrast between A.Smith and Mario in the game. Smith is getting more attention and is way more productive. Do you think he's more talented?

Not only that, but there is a tangible element to effort that one can see on the field, I think. Mario either is very, very stiff as an athlete, or he's not giving effort like Smith is. Is that your argument, that Mario is a stiff athlete? I could buy that. Maybe that's why he disappears so often.
Click to expand...

For one thing, I think that Smith is a much more polished player. Mario still has a lot to learn and will only get better.

My initial thoughts on Mario is that he takes plays off, but actually going back and looking at video (which I haven't done nearly as much as you, so your word is stronger there) I don't really see much in the way of lack of effort from him. Smith and Mario have about the same number of tackles, while Mario has 6 sacks to Smith's 2.5. I know stats don't tell the whole story, but it is pretty tough to say that Smith is way more productive.
 
dalemurphy said:
I think he may be also. If he has groin/ and lower abdominal issues, then that would explain the arm fighting and the lack of explosion play to play.
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Wasn't he recently listed with a hip issue during practice last week? Not sure if that was the first instance this year, but he's played through foot, groin and shoulder injuries before.
 
This was the first comment on the blog and I agree with it:

Hey John, I agree with you that Smith has been impressive. And usually, I agree with you on your posts, but based on video, I can’t agree, at least completely, with you on Mario.

Looking at the video you posted, I DID see some positives in his play. In those clips there were several where he caused pressure, forcing Rivers to step up or side step.

As far as the run plays, many of them looked like it was his job to seal the edge and protect against a cut-back, what is your opinion on that? I thought he was patient on the edge and seemed to be in good position to make a tackle had the RB cut-back.

Finally, in your last clip, Mario did indeed face a double-team, so I don’t know why that was included, there wasn’t much he could have done.

I think Antonio is doing a great job though, and I do indeed agree that Mario needs to pick up the pace and start playing like the dominant presence he could potentially be.
Click to expand...
 
And really, what's your point? Let's be mad at him? That's helpful. What else? Do you suggest replacing him? With who? Who could we replace him with that will help our defense?

This thread comes across as nothing but venting and wanting to take out your frustration on something. There is no helpful insight here. We know that Mario doesn't have a high motor. But he is still a very good DE and there is almost no way we could replace him with someone better without giving up an insane amount of players/picks.

So I ask again, what is the point of this? Let's all be angry at Mario Williams..... even though there is absolutely nothing that could plausibly be done about our DE situation, and it remains one of the very few positions that we aren't truly hurting at??? Great.
 
Lol at this thread. The Texans have 12 sacks this season and he has half of them. He's on pace to get 12 sacks this year. Nobody else puts pressure on the qb except him and he's the bad guy.
 
Mario should be a dominant DE, but he isn't and, given his lack of effort, never will be.
 
stingray said:
Lol at this thread. The Texans have 12 sacks this season and he has half of them. He's on pace to get 12 sacks this year. Nobody else puts pressure on the qb except him and he's the bad guy.
Click to expand...

Houston fans have always loved them some scapegoats.

I think he's hurt again.
 
wagonhed said:
And really, what's your point? Let's be mad at him? That's helpful. What else? Do you suggest replacing him? With who? Who could we replace him with that will help our defense?

This thread comes across as nothing but venting and wanting to take out your frustration on something. There is no helpful insight here. We know that Mario doesn't have a high motor. But he is still a very good DE and there is almost no way we could replace him with someone better without giving up an insane amount of players/picks.

So I ask again, what is the point of this? Let's all be angry at Mario Williams..... even though there is absolutely nothing that could plausibly be done about our DE situation, and it remains one of the very few positions that we aren't truly hurting at??? Great.
Click to expand...


Well, I think we are hurting at DE. And, as a frustrated fan that is reading and also participating in "Fire Coaches Threads", I thought it appropriate to point out that some of our "elite" players aren't playing anywhere near their potential. I think the video is valuable so each person can see what I'm see and arrive at his/her own opinion...

But, yeah, I'm definitely venting. I find lack of effort particularly insulting as a football fan and season ticket holder.
 
stingray said:
Lol at this thread. The Texans have 12 sacks this season and he has half of them. He's on pace to get 12 sacks this year. Nobody else puts pressure on the qb except him and he's the bad guy.
Click to expand...

Antonio Smith puts pressure on the QB more often and has been making more big plays in the run game as well this season.
 
problem with mario is he isn't a gamebreaker. no sack fumbles. his sacks dont seem to change momentum. he is a talent but not a dominate player. some real DT's would help but thats another thread.
 
Dutchrudder said:
As far as Mario is concerned, I wish he would stop running around the outside of the pocket. I never see him cut to the middle of the pocket or use a spin move to get inside to pressure the QB. I see so many opportunities for him to do this, but he never does it. It's like he has no idea how to do it.
Click to expand...

I would like to see him develop some other moves too. As far as stunting to the middle, that's on Frank Bush. If Mario took it upon himself to stunt the middle against a mobile quarterback, that QB is running for a long time.
 
Not sure what to say here... I mean Dale has been one of the most positive posters on TT for a long time. We've demeaned him on many occasions for his blind support of Kubiak and this team. He finally says something negative, and we crap on him for that... guess he's damned if he does, damned if he don't :)
 
dalemurphy said:
Antonio Smith puts pressure on the QB more often and has been making more big plays in the run game as well this season.
Click to expand...

Antonio puts some presure but hardly ever closes the deal. He's always a split second too late. That's why he always averages around 4 sacks a year.
And that is the problem with this whole defense, Most players are just a split second too late
 
dalemurphy said:
Alright. So, I have jumped of the Kubiak bandwagon and am ready for some new coaching. But, that being said, some of the players clearly deserve blame for their performance this season (particularly on defense). Other than Antonio Smith, it is difficult to praise any member of the defense. But, I certainly found where to focus my hostility. Meet #90, Mario Williams, 285 lbs. of sculpted sh*t!!

Texans Bull Blog: Mario doesn't Give a Damn!
Click to expand...

Man, who stole Dale's account??? This can't be the same dude. Lol!


Man, Dale you've been on fire lately. Thank you for seeing this and hopefully others will finally notice. I keep getting told that I don't know jack about the DE position and that it's all because of the DT's and all excuses A-Z for Mario. People forget that this guy was the 1st pick of the draft and what a physical specimen this guy is. He just doesn't reach his potential the majority of the time as a guy who is supposed to be a top tier DE. He's been in the league long enough now. Enough is enough. Mario needs to be the almighty beast that he was drafted and expected to be instead of the inconsistent guy who takes plays off like the pro scouts described him as. This team needs an anchor on this defense and a guy that can really put the unit on his back and get them pumped up with consistent big plays. He just doesn't have it in him.
 
Dutchrudder said:
As far as Mario is concerned, I wish he would stop running around the outside of the pocket. I never see him cut to the middle of the pocket or use a spin move to get inside to pressure the QB. I see so many opportunities for him to do this, but he never does it. It's like he has no idea how to do it.
Click to expand...

Texan_Bill said:
I would like to see him develop some other moves too. As far as stunting to the middle, that's on Frank Bush. If Mario took it upon himself to stunt the middle against a mobile quarterback, that QB is running for a long time.
Click to expand...

stingray said:
Antonio puts some presure but hardly ever closes the deal. He's always a split second too late. That's why he always averages around 4 sacks a year.
And that is the problem with this whole defense, Most players are just a split second too late
Click to expand...

Sounds like lack of player development...we have individual talent on defense, but is it the ineptitude of the coaching staff that fails to get them to raise their skill set or is it a lack of self motivation by the players.
 
dalemurphy said:
No agenda... other than the fact that it is usually effort that makes a defense good. And, Mario gives minimum effort on way too many plays. I would be shocked if most people can't see that on the video we're presenting, particularly when watching Antonio Smith in the same frame work 3X as hard.
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That's exactly what we were warned about when we drafted him. People forget that Mario's college stats in his last season were patted off of like 3 games where he went nuts. The rest of the season he was merely an average player from what a lot of the reports said. They said that if Mario could ever get motivated consistently and have the attitude to dominate all the time we'd have one of the best DE's of all time.
 
wagonhed said:
And really, what's your point? Let's be mad at him? That's helpful. What else? Do you suggest replacing him? With who? Who could we replace him with that will help our defense?

This thread comes across as nothing but venting and wanting to take out your frustration on something. There is no helpful insight here. We know that Mario doesn't have a high motor. But he is still a very good DE and there is almost no way we could replace him with someone better without giving up an insane amount of players/picks.

So I ask again, what is the point of this? Let's all be angry at Mario Williams..... even though there is absolutely nothing that could plausibly be done about our DE situation, and it remains one of the very few positions that we aren't truly hurting at??? Great.
Click to expand...


This is like the third Mario thread that you've flown in and pouted extremely hard in, but I've yet to see you make a solid argument for why the criticisms of Mario Williams are inaccurate, false, or unsubstantiated. How about making a strong case for why he's such a beast that you claim he is. Use some recent numbers, find some recent footage in certain games like Dale has, give us something other than just storming in here and spitting on everyone's posts where they're disappointed because our #1 draft pick and franchise DE isn't playing like an elite DE. I'd just like to see you make a real case other than saying something like "you don't know ****."
 
Texecutioner said:
This is like the third Mario thread that you've flown in and pouted extremely hard in, but I've yet to see you make a solid argument for why the criticisms of Mario Williams are inaccurate, false, or unsubstantiated. How about making a strong case for why he's such a beast that you claim he is. Use some recent numbers, find some recent footage in certain games like Dale has, give us something other than just storming in here and spitting on everyone's posts where they're disappointed because our #1 draft pick and franchise DE isn't playing like an elite DE. I'd just like to see you make a real case other than saying something like "you don't know ****."
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I think people take the criticisms too far. I'm not afraid to get after Mario when he's non-existent (MNF v. the Colts) and comes across as playing with no heart. This was different. There was NO lack of effort.

That said, some people take it too far (i.e. the OP's video clips). In fact, those clips showed pressure on the QB.. Those video clips (for the most part) bode well. The second one showed Mario, taking on the RT and still keeping contain on the outside, which was nicely done. That's what D-lineman are supposed to do, occupy space, not loose contain and turn things into the middle where your LB's are supposed to make the tackle.
 
Texan_Bill said:
I think people take the criticisms too far. I'm not afraid to get after Mario when he's non-existent (MNF v. the Colts) and comes across as playing with no heart. This was different. There was NO lack of effort.

That said, some people take it too far (i.e. the OP's video clips). In fact, those clips showed pressure on the QB.. Those video clips (for the most part) bode well. The second one showed Mario, taking on the RT and still keeping contain on the outside, which was nicely done. That's what D-lineman are supposed to do, occupy space, not loose contain and turn things into the middle where your LB's are supposed to make the tackle.
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I'll call him a good DE. He's good. He can play great "at times." I don't see the constant effort though, and if I am wrong on the lack of effort at times, then that's an even bigger problem because that would suggest that he'll just never be a consistently great player. I don't see him knocking down a lot of passes at the line of scrimmage, or getting a ton of FF's, and constant hurries that force QB's into bad throws where are DB's can capitalize a lot or to cause more 3 and outs. This secondary is not just bad because they can't cover anyone. A lot of it has to do with the lack of pressure, and whether Mario likes it or not more is expected of him than anyone else on this D line. He is paid to be an elite De and and an elite defensive player. We need this guy to play above and beyond what the norm is for him especially right now, and he's just not capable of being that consistently dominant D lineman that we've seen many other D lineman be for other teams over the years.

Maybe if we ever got the right DC to come in here that could instill a strong mental edge and grit in him we'd finally see that, but I've lost all hope that he'll ever be that guy that we have all hoped he'd become consistently. He's good and could be better with better DT's of course, but he's got to take it upon himself and want to destroy people out there. I just don't think he has that type of nasty D Lineman mentality.
 
I disagree completely. Mario is our only Dlineman who gives a damn. He's probably tired of playing on a line that the organization doesn't give a damn about and or an organization that is inept at placing talent that fits the defense.
 
Texecutioner said:
Man, who stole Dale's account??? This can't be the same dude. Lol!


Man, Dale you've been on fire lately. Thank you for seeing this and hopefully others will finally notice. I keep getting told that I don't know jack about the DE position and that it's all because of the DT's and all excuses A-Z for Mario. People forget that this guy was the 1st pick of the draft and what a physical specimen this guy is. He just doesn't reach his potential the majority of the time as a guy who is supposed to be a top tier DE. He's been in the league long enough now. Enough is enough. Mario needs to be the almighty beast that he was drafted and expected to be instead of the inconsistent guy who takes plays off like the pro scouts described him as. This team needs an anchor on this defense and a guy that can really put the unit on his back and get them pumped up with consistent big plays. He just doesn't have it in him.
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I have been re-watching the games on DVR since 2008. But, now that we've started the blog, I am paying more attention to detail than I did in the past. Also, since we're filming and cutting editting video, we are seeing the same plays half a dozen times and more, sometimes. So, it is hard for me to speak to his play in previous years to level that I can this season. I've noticed a trend downward in terms of effort after week 2. I'll let others debate how much of a problem this has been for him in years previous.

I certainly don't mind the criticism, though. I mean, when I start a threat titled "least favorite Texan", I am kind of asking for it.
 
TEXANRED said:
I disagree completely. Mario is our only Dlineman who gives a damn. He's probably tired of playing on a line that the organization doesn't give a damn about and or an organization that is inept at placing talent that fits the defense.
Click to expand...

We have isolated video of Antonio Smith from four games. I dare you to watch these and say that Antonio Smith doesn't give a damn:

Antonio Smith vs NYG
Antonio Smith vs. Oakland

The video we've been discussing vs. SD


Can't find the other one right now, but I'll look for it later.
 
Texecutioner said:
This is like the third Mario thread that you've flown in and pouted extremely hard in, but I've yet to see you make a solid argument for why the criticisms of Mario Williams are inaccurate, false, or unsubstantiated. How about making a strong case for why he's such a beast that you claim he is. Use some recent numbers, find some recent footage in certain games like Dale has, give us something other than just storming in here and spitting on everyone's posts where they're disappointed because our #1 draft pick and franchise DE isn't playing like an elite DE. I'd just like to see you make a real case other than saying something like "you don't know ****."
Click to expand...
I'm not pouting about anything, I didn't make the whiney thread about how one of our best defensive players is so terrible.

What exactly ARE your claims? It seems that your claims, and dalemurphy's, and others, are that Mario Williams is not an All-World, ultra-elite, top 3 defensive end. I have acknowledged that multiple times. The point I have made repeatedly is so what?

He isn't a beast, but he is very good. He is easily in the top 10 at his position. I don't care how hard he tries or how much physical potential he has. He is a very good player who would be nearly impossible to replace. Period.

Your whining is just that - whining. You have no solutions and no suggestions. Really, tell us, what do you suggest we do about Mario Williams? Trade him? Go ahead... don't hold back, tell us about why we shouldn't have MW on the team because he isn't Reggie White.

Or, you know, give us some numbers. Make a fool of yourself like that guy that said there are 20 better DEs in the league and then made a list including like 8 OLBs and other inferior players. Who all is better than Mario and how are we supposed to acquire them?

Or just keep whining about him and then getting butthurt when I respond. That's the only thing you have done so far, so I'm not really expecting you to break the trend.


Oh and for the record, here are my claims:

1. Mario is one of the 3 best players on our defense, if not THE best (Ryans?, Cushing?, Pollard?)
2. Mario is one of the 5-6 best on the team. (AJ, Leach, Foster, Mario, Schaub, ???)
2. Mario is one of the 6-7 best 4-3 DEs in the league.
3. Mario is an asset that the team would have extreme difficulty replacing.
4. Mario is an asset the team shouldn't replace anyway, considering that top 5 DEs don't exactly get put up for trade very often and he is the only pass rush we have.
5. Mario has a poor motor and doesn't necessarily give 100% at all times, but that doesn't change any of the above.
 
dalemurphy said:
We have isolated video of Antonio Smith from four games. I dare you to watch these and say that Antonio Smith doesn't give a damn:

Antonio Smith vs NYG
Antonio Smith vs. Oakland

The video we've been discussing vs. SD


Can't find the other one right now, but I'll look for it later.
Click to expand...
There is no denying that Smith has a great motor, as did Bulman, as do numerous players across the league.

What I want to know is, why not count Marios motor as part of his ability? Not everyone has great motors and great drive. Do you think it's their fault? Maybe Mario doesn't have the fiery passion for the game that some others do - so what? He is just doing his best to be successful and maybe playing football is the best he can do right now, even if it isn't his first interest. Maybe his real interest is playing cricket... who the **** knows. Point is, when he is clearly a major help to the team, and he is doing the best he is capable of, why do you want to give him a hard time about it?

Not everyone was born with equal drive and desire, you know. Are you rich? Did you scratch and claw your way up an entreprenurial ladder with fierce intensity? If not, I assume you still do your best to be successful in life, no? So should we give you hell for not having an insane amount of drive and ambition? Should we hate you for not being the next Bill Gates?
 
I think if Mario's #1 interest in life is freaking cricket, he should have stated so before we spent a #1 overall draft pick on him. 'Course we'd just have gotten stuck with Bush or Young, but that's beside the point.
 
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