Are we too concentrated on the QB position?.......

[CloakNNNdagger]

..............and not understanding the importance of giving the QB “time,” i.e., a more that average OL? The average QB needs 4.5 seconds to get his pass of..........if it’s short........considerably more for the “bomb.” Our QBs have probably reached the limit of how quickly a QB can release the ball. Certainly, last year was a noticeable improvement........much due to the quicker release and some by improved protection. But, there were still enough plays that we saw requiring our QBs to find their target in less than 2-3 seconds. That short segment of time, even in the WCO, can lead to all sorts of bad outcomes. If you look at the top QBs (eg., Brady and Manning) as well as the top teams, they are blessed with superior OLs. We certainly don’t expect to be one the top teams this year (although stranger things have happened). However, we have an acceptable QB, RB, DL and linebacker situation, with a potentially surprising secondary. We are contemplating decent performance from Olinemen presently on the roster. However, the OL (especially LT position) needs to be solidified prior to the beginning of the regular season if we expect any consistent success. Gibbs will no doubt be architect extroidinaire of the plan, but he will still need a few more pieces........before the season begins............I hope he is given them.

 

[Malloy]

I just wrote a huge post on my thoughts on the whole team-thingie, and the missing pieces that may or may not lift the entire team. I got into alot of blabber and in the end I realized that no-one would ever read it. DELETE.

So, the short version is, I agree CnD

 

[Thorn]

Games are won and lost at the line, both sides. Our D line, while needing a bookend to Mario, is in much better shape than the O line. I agree that we need to upgrade the O line. Drafting a LT in the 1st round would make me a very happy camper.

 

[HJam72]

Games are won and lost at the line, both sides. Our D line, while needing a bookend to Mario, is in much better shape than the O line. I agree that we need to upgrade the O line. Drafting a LT in the 1st round would make me a very happy camper.

I don't disagree with any of that; but, look how much better our offense was last year than our D--and that's with AJ out for like 7 games (I think). I wouldn't mind if they got a good, weak-side DE to put more pressure on the QB. I also wouldn't mind having another good corner. LT is great too.

Come to think of it, we could use a good QB....just kidding.

 

[Thorn]

I don't disagree with any of that; but, look how much better our offense was last year than our D--and that's with AJ out for like 7 games (I think). I wouldn't mind if they got a good, weak-side DE to put more pressure on the QB. I also wouldn't mind having another good corner. LT is great too.

Come to think of it, we could use a good QB....just kidding.

Well, I'm of the opinion that once you have a QB you are happy with, your first round draft choice should always be a lineman (of any flavor). That's probably not very realistic, but it's how I feel.

 

[infantrycak]

The OL is going to be substantially different this season. There are only two pieces of last year's OL that are pretty set in stone--LG Pitts and RT Winston.

New coach Gibbs--upgrade
New C Myers--upgrade
New RG--TBD--Briesel, Studdard, Spencer?
New at some point in the season LT--Salaam turning over too, rookie, Butler, Spencer?

That's quite a bit of change in one year.

 

[Texans_Chick]

The OL is going to be substantially different this season. There are only two pieces of last year's OL that are pretty set in stone--LG Pitts and RT Winston.

New coach Gibbs--upgrade
New C Myers--upgrade
New RG--TBD--Briesel, Studdard, Spencer?
New at some point in the season LT--Salaam turning over too, rookie, Butler, Spencer?

That's quite a bit of change in one year.

The key I believe for the Texans QB both with timing and with having open receivers is whether opposing teams have to respect the run. Not that some guy will just be able to fall forward 3 yards. But that if they cheat to cover pass, they will be burnt by the run.

This will help with the pass rush and getting receivers a bit more open.

Hopefully the run with improve with a collection of running backs who are a joke and with the coaching that Gibbs is doing up front. Having a consistent philosophy instead of the GB/Denver marriage that just wasn't working.

 

[Hervoyel]

The key I believe for the Texans QB both with timing and with having open receivers is whether opposing teams have to respect the run. Not that some guy will just be able to fall forward 3 yards. But that if they cheat to cover pass, they will be burnt by the run.

This will help with the pass rush and getting receivers a bit more open.

Hopefully the run with improve with a collection of running backs who are a joke and with the coaching that Gibbs is doing up front. Having a consistent philosophy instead of the GB/Denver marriage that just wasn't working.

Absolutely. The Texans are counting on reaping the benefits of a vastly improved running game. If we get what is expected out of our running game (and I've seen nothing to make me believe that we won't) then that will "on average" I think throw the equivalent of an additional second to our QB on passing plays. From there it's just going to get better I believe.

 

[infantrycak]

The key I believe for the Texans QB both with timing and with having open receivers is whether opposing teams have to respect the run. Not that some guy will just be able to fall forward 3 yards. But that if they cheat to cover pass, they will be burnt by the run.

Yup. That was subsumed within adding Gibbs in my post but it is much better explicitly stated.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

The reason that the focus on the QB is that w/o a good one, a team will not have substained success. There are cases where a team has gotten by with a mediocore guy, but have dropped shortly thereafter.

Ironically, the QBs mentioned originally make the OL as much as the OL makes them. Both Manning and Brady are outstanding at reading the defense and getting the ball to the proper spot quickly. Neither is a runner, but both have excellent in the pocket footwork and don't take sacks needlessly.

While the Patriots and Indy have good ( not superior imo)OL lines, they don't line-up a just dominate people, nor contain high first round picks. Smart, techinical guys who work well within the system and with their QB. In short, the sum of the parts are better the individual players.

Also, not sure about 4.5 seconds number, but I doubt any QB in the league regularly gets that amount of time. I am sure some geek site like footballoutsiders may have the average time per pass, I doubt its anywhere near that.

 

[TK_Gamer]

in all honesty the focus on LT could be unwaranted. I think a large number of hits and sacks last year came from the C/RG assignments. With the pickups we've made so far on the O-line, the resulting shuffle by Gibbs could go a long way towards shoring up that problem area. Don't get me wrong , Salaam had plenty of blowouts too, but it wasn't all on his side.

 

[infantrycak]

Also, not sure about 4.5 seconds number, but I doubt any QB in the league regularly gets that amount of time. I am sure some geek site like footballoutsiders may have the average time per pass, I doubt its anywhere near that.

You are correct. 90+% of NFL passes are out in 3 seconds or less.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

Absolutely. The Texans are counting on reaping the benefits of a vastly improved running game. If we get what is expected out of our running game (and I've seen nothing to make me believe that we won't) then that will "on average" I think throw the equivalent of an additional second to our QB on passing plays. From there it's just going to get better I believe.

I agree, and I too believe we are "on track." But even a great RB can be diminished by a compromised OL.

 

[ObsiWan]

You are correct. 90+% of NFL passes are out in 3 seconds or less.

Exactly. We used to have this argument with folks who accused our O-line of not giving the departed one enough time to throw. I started timing QBs (DVRs are sooo wonderful) and from snap to release the average time is 2.5 to 3.5 seconds. If a QB gets more time than that either he's scrambling or the defense is only rushing 3 guys.

Also, as Arlington said, the biggest part of getting rid of the ball in a timely fashion is the QB's ability to make a pre-snap read. If the QB has an idea who's going to be open - or at least who'll be single covered - before the ball is snapped, then the chances of the play being successful goes waaay up.

 

[gary]

LT is what we should be focussed on.

 

[infantrycak]

in all honesty the focus on LT could be unwaranted. I think a large number of hits and sacks last year came from the C/RG assignments.

10 of 22 sacks last year came from LT with 2 not assigned to anyone on the OL. That's 50% on LT. That doesn't mean there isn't any concern on C/G since the more room they give, the more room the QB has to work with while the T's handle the edge rushers, but age and quality dictate LT is a top concern to find a long term solution.

 

[TK_Gamer]

I would be interested to see the location the "hit on throw/after throw" came from. they probably don't record that info though.

 

[Goldensilence]

I think the upgrade at center was a critical piece of the puzzle. I'm interested in who is going to handle RG this year with RT,LG,C and I'm going to assume Salaam is going to start at LT at least to begin the year.

I hope Williams drops to us and we see some surprise picks ahead of us. Draft is now less then a month away and I think there are still a few pro days left.

One guy I haven't heard anything about anymore is Sam Baker. Has he dropped of the radar that much?

 

[The1ApplePie]

Any offensive weapon is needed

AJ is still basically the whole offense, with Davis being a one year wonder

RB/WR/TE any of these would be great.

Take Stewart or Jones in the 1st, and hope Manningham falls to the 3rd

TE's like Bennet or Finley could be sitting there in the 4th/5th, and would be a good combo with Daniels

 

[hookinreds]

I believe that Gibbs should be able to utilize a 3rd-6th round OL in the ZBS so that it would be as effective as a 1st or 2nd round OL in a typical OL scheme. That being said, I wouldn't take an OL in the first unless we knew that player would be as effective for us as Larry Allen was for the Cowboys who was a 2nd rounder when they picked him. Of course if we knew who each Pro Bowler in the draft was I'd take them all too.

 

[beerlover]

clockNNNdagger, you'll get no arguement from me. Gibbs will be key in the develpment of the line & running attact, but I still want Rick calling the shots, I'm hoping he's around here for a long, long, long time. its one month away from the draft so its still early to get overally excited about our 1st pick but I'm getting a feeling young Branden Alberts is going to be the portector for Schaub

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?do...=15&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

 

[GP]

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?do...=15&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Watching footage of Albert and of Williams (on NFLFN's coverage of combine) I sorta' favor Albert myself. Just watching the guys do the same drills, Albert looks better.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

Watching footage of Albert and of Williams (on NFLFN's coverage of combine) I sorta' favor Albert myself. Just watching the guys do the same drills, Albert looks better.

Are you all speaking of Albert as LT (he's been a guard), or are you saying who will be more protective of our QB????????

 

[The Pencil Neck]

I would be interested to see the location the "hit on throw/after throw" came from. they probably don't record that info though.

It's in the CNNSI split stats All the way down at the bottom:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/6849/passing_splits.html

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

I see now where they may him projected as an NFL LT...........he played 2 games for Va. at LT

His NFL draft profile is pretty impressive (Look at the OVERVIEW and ANALYSIS)

 

[beerlover]

Are you all speaking of Albert as LT (he's been a guard), or are you saying who will be more protective of our QB????????

yes & yes.

#1 has the skill set to kick out to LT
#2 excellent fit for zbs
#3 extends blocking scheme to 2nd level, seals off edge or inside
#4 excellent character, no blemishes, clean
#5 adds versatiltiy to OL
#6 grades out higher than any OL currently on Texans roster
#7 has Amobi Okoye upside
#8 perfect timing to take a franchise tackle cornerstone
#9 Gibbs will only enhance his game
#10 Schaub will be less likely to get injured again

 

[TexansSeminole]

I'm impressed with Albert too, but do you guys really think we will use our only draft choice in the first day on a transition (ACC Guard to NFL LT) OL. I understand that he is talented, but we don't have the luxury of taking him.

Corner is by far our weakest position on this football team. Imagine if we pass on a corner in the first and they start flying off the board before we can make a selection in the 3rd round. It could easily happen, there are alot of corners graded for the 2nd round (Justin King, Brandon Flowers, Terrell Thomas, Patrick Lee, Tracy Porter, Charles Godfrey). Then you've also got guys like Cason and Reggie Smith who could fall into that second round.

Day 2 starts and you've got alot of teams that select before us that will need secondary help (Saints, Dolphins, Cheifs, Broncos, Falcons, Panthers). What makes it even worse is that we don't pick until the second half of the 3rd round, so we could be forced to look at players with 4th round grades when it's finally our turn to pick again.

Do you trade up to try and get that guy you were targeting if you see this kind of behavior in the 2nd round? I don't think we can put ourselves in that kind of position. Why not just take care of our biggest need with our highest pick? We will have alot of talent to choose from. We will also have alot of talent in the OL to choose from come 3rd and 4th round.

 

[ObsiWan]

ummm... what was the original question?

 

[TheRealJoker]

I'm impressed with Albert too, but do you guys really think we will use our only draft choice in the first day on a transition (ACC Guard to NFL LT) OL. I understand that he is talented, but we don't have the luxury of taking him.
Corner is by far our weakest position on this football team. Imagine if we pass on a corner in the first and they start flying off the board before we can make a selection in the 3rd round. It could easily happen, there are alot of corners graded for the 2nd round (Justin King, Brandon Flowers, Terrell Thomas, Patrick Lee, Tracy Porter, Charles Godfrey). Then you've also got guys like Cason and Reggie Smith who could fall into that second round.

Day 2 starts and you've got alot of teams that select before us that will need secondary help (Saints, Dolphins, Cheifs, Broncos, Falcons, Panthers). What makes it even worse is that we don't pick until the second half of the 3rd round, so we could be forced to look at players with 4th round grades when it's finally our turn to pick again.

Do you trade up to try and get that guy you were targeting if you see this kind of behavior in the 2nd round? I don't think we can put ourselves in that kind of position. Why not just take care of our biggest need with our highest pick? We will have alot of talent to choose from. We will also have alot of talent in the OL to choose from come 3rd and 4th round.

Albert would most likely be the SAFEST pick at 18. Reason being if he doesn't work out at LT he's probably the closest thing to a lock in this draft to work out at RG. The spots on the OL that are not locked down are LT and RG. By drafting Albert you get one of those spots locked down for the next decade. I'd gladly make that pick everytime

How many CBs do you project to have as high of a floor as Albert at 18?

 

[TexansSeminole]

How many CBs do you project to have as high of a floor as Albert at 18?

Don't know if I could answer that question. Two totally different positions.

I can't really see us picking a guy to play guard in the first round. Maybe if we had a second rounder, but we don't. The problem I have with the selection is that he doesn't have much experience at the position we need him at. I'm hoping to get an impact player with out first rounder, it would be sad to see the guy sit on the bench behind Salaam for most of the year if he had a hard time picking up the position and the system.

As far as corners with alot of promise, there are alot of them. But you don't just pick for high ceiling, we need a corner who can play right away, and there are a couple of those, with alot of playmaking ability, that should be there at #18 as well.

 

[GP]

Are you all speaking of Albert as LT (he's been a guard), or are you saying who will be more protective of our QB????????

I'm more concerned with how our OLs fit into the ZBS.

Watching Albert, it just seems that he "looks" better than Williams. I don't doubt that Williams is good--he IS good--but Albert just, for some reason, looks like the better of the two (to me).

 

[Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry]

TexansSeminole in regardes to Albert he HAS played in the Al Groh WCS while at UVA. Even his coach has gone on record saying he does'nt like his players leaving school early BUT in Alberts case the kid is ready for the NFL.

The other thing I keep thinging is the Kubes and Smith seem to have a real good eye for talent in the later rounds, last year we got a CB in the 3RD that ended up starting by the end of the season.(true it was due to injuries but still)

All I'm trying to say is THIS is the draft to get a O-linemen. DRAFT Albert if he's there at 18.

 

[beerlover]

TexansSeminole in regardes to Albert he HAS played in the Al Groh WCS while at UVA. Even his coach has gone on record saying he does'nt like his players leaving school early BUT in Alberts case the kid is ready for the NFL.

The other thing I keep thinging is the Kubes and Smith seem to have a real good eye for talent in the later rounds, last year we got a CB in the 3RD that ended up starting by the end of the season.(true it was due to injuries but still)

All I'm trying to say is THIS is the draft to get a O-linemen. DRAFT Albert if he's there at 18.

your the man I could not agree more.

correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Bennett aquired in last years 4th rd. EVEN AFTER TRADING DOWN A FEW SPOTS

elite linemen are a rare commodity, something that will enhance our QB's health & longevity

 

[Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry]

No Beerlover I'm not the man. Just live in Va so I'm current on ACC and CAA teams in my area.

That said some of my Favs. this year:
Brandon Flowers- Kid can flat out play
Brandon Albert- Luv the kids attitude and work ethics.
Chris Long- Dude is Baaaaad

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

Exactly. We used to have this argument with folks who accused our O-line of not giving the departed one enough time to throw. I started timing QBs (DVRs are sooo wonderful) and from snap to release the average time is 2.5 to 3.5 seconds. If a QB gets more time than that either he's scrambling or the defense is only rushing 3 guys.

Also, as Arlington said, the biggest part of getting rid of the ball in a timely fashion is the QB's ability to make a pre-snap read. If the QB has an idea who's going to be open - or at least who'll be single covered - before the ball is snapped, then the chances of the play being successful goes waaay up.

Carr gave new meaning to the 3 step "drop." Schaub and Rosenfels (correct me if I am wrong) have also used the 3 step drop, but successfully. However, for deeper routes ala curls, come backs, down and out and deep routes, 5 step (and sometimes 7 step) drops are necessary. What has your experience shown these important plays in the regular repertoire of succesful teams to be taking time wise?

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Carr gave new meaning to the 3 step "drop." Schaub and Rosenfels (correct me if I am wrong) have also used the 3 step drop, but successfully. However, for deeper routes ala curls, come backs, down and out and deep routes, 5 step (and sometimes 7 step) drops are necessary. What has your experience shown these important plays in the regular repertoire of succesful teams to be taking time wise?

I'll tell you what, a couple of years ago, everyone was talking about how we used the 3 step drops to get the ball out of the QB's hands quickly because of how bad our line was. But I sat down and analyzed several games and the meat and potatoes of our passing game was 5 step drops. That was with HWWNBN behind the center.

At the beginning of last year, I did the same thing with Schaub, and the distribution of drops was similar but not the same. Mostly 5 steps, roughly equal with 3 and 7 stop drops, 4-5 naked boots, and a couple of 1 step drops. However, we used the shotgun last year which we didn't see the year before. (Strangely, Matt is best in the I-back formation while Sage is the worst in that formation. Also, Sage had a better QB rating against the blitz, which I found interesting.)

But anyway, that would lead me to believe that the 3.5 seconds is for a 5 step drop.

 

[beerlover]

I'll tell you what, a couple of years ago, everyone was talking about how we used the 3 step drops to get the ball out of the QB's hands quickly because of how bad our line was. But I sat down and analyzed several games and the meat and potatoes of our passing game was 5 step drops. That was with HWWNBN behind the center.

At the beginning of last year, I did the same thing with Schaub, and the distribution of drops was similar but not the same. Mostly 5 steps, roughly equal with 3 and 7 stop drops, 4-5 naked boots, and a couple of 1 step drops. However, we used the shotgun last year which we didn't see the year before. (Strangely, Matt is best in the I-back formation while Sage is the worst in that formation. Also, Sage had a better QB rating against the blitz, which I found interesting.)

But anyway, that would lead me to believe that the 3.5 seconds is for a 5 step drop.

3-step would be akin to a change-up in baseball, you only use it to keep your opponent off balance so you can use your fastball (5-step) as your bread & butter

 

[ObsiWan]

I'll tell you what, a couple of years ago, everyone was talking about how we used the 3 step drops to get the ball out of the QB's hands quickly because of how bad our line was. But I sat down and analyzed several games and the meat and potatoes of our passing game was 5 step drops. That was with HWWNBN behind the center.

At the beginning of last year, I did the same thing with Schaub, and the distribution of drops was similar but not the same. Mostly 5 steps, roughly equal with 3 and 7 stop drops, 4-5 naked boots, and a couple of 1 step drops. However, we used the shotgun last year which we didn't see the year before. (Strangely, Matt is best in the I-back formation while Sage is the worst in that formation. Also, Sage had a better QB rating against the blitz, which I found interesting.)

But anyway, that would lead me to believe that the 3.5 seconds is for a 5 step drop.

I agree; 3-3.5 seconds from snap to release is about average for a 5-step drop.

Elite guys like Favre, Manning, and Brady seem to get more time because they have excellent pocket footwork. Neither of those guys is gonna outrun anybody. But they are excellent in feeling pressure and making a step up or a couple of steps left or right to extend the play by another half second or second - all while keeping their eyes downfield. Another thing too, that bit of movement also helps your line recover from whiffs, stunts, or just flat getting beat.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

Some good info by Pencil Neck and ObsiWan.........as always

 

[Goldensilence]

Albert would most likely be the SAFEST pick at 18. Reason being if he doesn't work out at LT he's probably the closest thing to a lock in this draft to work out at RG. The spots on the OL that are not locked down are LT and RG. By drafting Albert you get one of those spots locked down for the next decade. I'd gladly make that pick everytime

How many CBs do you project to have as high of a floor as Albert at 18?

IMO you nailed down my opinion on taking Alberts. With Weary not looking like he's going to get resigned and McKinney released I think you have to wonder if they think Brisiel is the guy they want starting. IF Charles Spencer makes it back do they kick him inside or is he still able to compete for the LT spot?

Is Alberts a LT? I don't know. But for sure I agree if nothing else you get a lock down at RG. I think this is setting up for us to take OL or CB with our first unless a darkhorse candidate like Harvey or Campbell. I'm hoping Williams falls.

 

[BSofA04]

I'm going to jump into the convo by adding that the Texans have made every indication that a LT for the future is what we're trying to aquire. I know that there's certain things people say in the news that should be taken with a grain of salt, but you can't disagree that we're in dire need of a young, talented LT. Taking the Schaub trade into consideration...if you want to legitimize that as a great move for your team, you better protect your investment. That's why I have no doubt we'll be drafting a LT in either the 1st or 3rd round.

As far as Albert, he seems like the real deal and at worst is a franchise RG for the Texans. The fact that he has the athletic ability to cover the edge and move to LT makes him that much more valuable. Make no mistake, I'd love for Williams to fall to us, but Albert is a great alternative.

 

[DocBar]

10 of 22 sacks last year came from LT with 2 not assigned to anyone on the OL. That's 50% on LT. That doesn't mean there isn't any concern on C/G since the more room they give, the more room the QB has to work with while the T's handle the edge rushers, but age and quality dictate LT is a top concern to find a long term solution.

Do those statistics take into account whether or not the QB was flushed from the pocket? Several times last season, our QB was sacked because he was flushed by a strong inside rush and the QB had to step outside. Mario got 4 or 5 sacks because of pressure created by Okoye. Sacks Mario might not have gotten on his own. After McKinney and Weary went down, our sacks went up. I would be leery of taking a website's assignment of sack blame without knowing the criteria for giving those sacks to a certain position.
LT is an easy position to pick on based on previous coaches and QB's, but I think it should be telling that one of our great offseason aquisitions is a C/G, NOT a LT.

 

[TK_Gamer]

Exactly what I was thinking Docbar. I still think because of Salaam's age the uncertainty of Spencer, we need to address the LT position, but we may be able to do that in later rounds. This year is gonna be like last year as far as that first round pick goes, I think we could end up with anyone hehe

 

[infantrycak]

Do those statistics take into account whether or not the QB was flushed from the pocket?

LT is an easy position to pick on based on previous coaches and QB's, but I think it should be telling that one of our great offseason aquisitions is a C/G, NOT a LT.

Well, they don't give an explanation for each sack. I can tell you in years past I have noticed incidents of an inside rusher collapsing the pocket with an outside rusher getting the flushed QB assigned as a half sack to LG and half to LT. I am glad to see us improve the C position as well, but the LT position needs to be addressed still unless Gibbs has some unstated faith in Butler or Spencer.