Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
This is a good draft for the Texans ... OL , DBs , RBs seem to be in abundance . They could use more picks .
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QB Quinn Gray (update) signs with Texans
- Thread starter DiehardChris
- Start date
This is a good draft for the Texans ... OL , DBs , RBs seem to be in abundance . They could use more picks .
TexansLucky13
53d Signal Batt
I definitely agree. Given Kubes and Rick's track record, I would prefer a 2nd rounder or two 3rds over a reliable backup.
Goldensilence
hipster elite
It's my understanding Most teams are interested in him as a BACKUP.
We gave Schaub the deal because we wanted him as a starter. Not pointing at you but there is some major revisionist history in the Sage for President crowd.
Sage played Solid for the most part but not spectacular last year. I still think the David Carr effect is still not out of some fans system.
Let me ask this: put in a different position would anyone here be okay trading a third away for a perspective backup quarterback?
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I think the Texans need young a OL to get as much of Gibbs as possible . Of course they need a CB probably the most but another pick gives you options .
P
Polo
Guest
If my starting QB was "willy the fool", then yeah...
*I don't think Jackson is "willie the fool". Actually I think he can be a really good QB in this leauge. At the same time, I wouldn't rest my whole season on his shoulders.
Sage is not guaranteed to be a starter anymore than he's guaranteed to be a back-up if traded.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Sage isnt going anywhere without our #1 QB proving he can remain healthy, AND our #3 QB proving himself in our system on our team.
TexansLucky13
53d Signal Batt
We'll see about that.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I think they'd do it as much for Sage to get a shot as a starter .
Well ... we could trade Matt back to Atlanta for Oakland and Atlanta's #2 picks .
Is there anything that prevents the following scenario:
R Smith: We want Gray. We might deal Sage Rosenfels, we might not. Depends.
Rosenhaus: No. Gray wants to play; to be QB2.
R Smith: [Jedi mind trick]. . . Look, it's a 1 year deal. Kubes is freaking Yoda when it comes to grooming QB's. Worst case, your guy gets better. Best case, we deal Sage and he's QB2.
Rosenhause: [eyes glazed over] Um. . . Uh . . . Wait, where was I. Right, Gray wants money and wants to be QB2.
R Smith: [Last Jedi Mind trick] . . . If we deal Rosenfels, we're rework Gray's contract and up it to a Million to pay him like a QB2.
Rosenhous: Um. Ok.
========
Seriously, without the Jedi mind trick stuff, can we just redo Gray's deal if we trade Rosenfels.
R Smith: We want Gray. We might deal Sage Rosenfels, we might not. Depends.
Rosenhaus: No. Gray wants to play; to be QB2.
R Smith: [Jedi mind trick]. . . Look, it's a 1 year deal. Kubes is freaking Yoda when it comes to grooming QB's. Worst case, your guy gets better. Best case, we deal Sage and he's QB2.
Rosenhause: [eyes glazed over] Um. . . Uh . . . Wait, where was I. Right, Gray wants money and wants to be QB2.
R Smith: [Last Jedi Mind trick] . . . If we deal Rosenfels, we're rework Gray's contract and up it to a Million to pay him like a QB2.
Rosenhous: Um. Ok.
========
Seriously, without the Jedi mind trick stuff, can we just redo Gray's deal if we trade Rosenfels.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
I say we deal Rosenhaus.:elle:
Porky
Hall of Fame
Another great move by Rick Smith. That guy is a future GM of the year candidate.
I have come down strongly against trading Sage. One of the main reasons was we would have an unknown at backup QB. Granted we don't know how well Gray will play in comparison to Sage. However, before I would have been hesitant to make a trade no matter the compensation.
I am now much more ameniable to a trade although I still lean very slightly against. If I am Smith, I let it be known that the rate is a 2nd rd pick, and the first team that offers me that wins. And then I wait. For a 2nd I pull the trigger.
If the offer never comes, then we go into camp with Schaub, Sage and Quinn Gray. That's not a bad thing either. In other words this is a win-win scenerio. There really is no downside. Remember, last year when Matt went down, we had no reliable backup. Gray would give us that.
Considering that they are paying him a one yr min deal, it makes me think that this is wide-open. In other words, they trade Sage, they will give him a long term deal at years end. If not, Gray can re-up with us, or seek a long term deal elsewhere. Again, it's all win-win for player and team.
Excellent deal, and kudos to Smith, Kubes, etc.
I have come down strongly against trading Sage. One of the main reasons was we would have an unknown at backup QB. Granted we don't know how well Gray will play in comparison to Sage. However, before I would have been hesitant to make a trade no matter the compensation.
I am now much more ameniable to a trade although I still lean very slightly against. If I am Smith, I let it be known that the rate is a 2nd rd pick, and the first team that offers me that wins. And then I wait. For a 2nd I pull the trigger.
If the offer never comes, then we go into camp with Schaub, Sage and Quinn Gray. That's not a bad thing either. In other words this is a win-win scenerio. There really is no downside. Remember, last year when Matt went down, we had no reliable backup. Gray would give us that.
Considering that they are paying him a one yr min deal, it makes me think that this is wide-open. In other words, they trade Sage, they will give him a long term deal at years end. If not, Gray can re-up with us, or seek a long term deal elsewhere. Again, it's all win-win for player and team.
Excellent deal, and kudos to Smith, Kubes, etc.
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
This deal is for chump change (in NFL standards). Not bad.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
There are teams out there whose starters played worse than Sage Rosenfels did last season.
Given the crappy market for developed QBs out there, I think there is some valuation between the Schaub deal and just a third round pick that the Texans may be able to get.
I think we are in the place that San Diego was last year with Michael Turner. If they get a offer that is good, they will trade him. If not, they may decide that they prefer the insurance he provides for the team.
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
Another great move by Rick Smith. That guy is a future GM of the year candidate.
Excellent deal, and kudos to Smith, Kubes, etc.
Excellent post Porky, I would of repped you but my work system seems to think something on the rep page is offensive content and it won't let me.
I agree that this is another piece of genius that Smith has put together.
Gray played pretty well when he got a chance, a huge step up from the Van Pelt experiment.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
The same general concept though. Insurance. If you have LT or Schaub go down, you have insurance that your season doesn't devolve into a Falcon/Dolphin-esque pile of goo. Yeah, most playoff teams don't rely on their backups, but a lot of those really awful teams have quarterbacks who go down and joke backups. Truly awful seasons aren't good for a franchise.
Rosenfels contract is attractive. Rosenfels has proven that he can move the ball, even with an offense with a wildly inconsistent running game. He's a good guy. He'd be a terrific guy to have as a starter if you draft a QB that you eventually want to groom for the starter's job.
So, with those factors, you would think you could get something for him from some of these teams whose fans are sick of ridiculously bad quarterback play.
I've never been one eager to trade Rosenfels, but having Gray on roster makes me a lot more comfortable with it.
Specnatz
Hall of Fame
I understand the analogy but the Chargers were wanting a first and a third from what I remember. They over priced the market in terms of a running back. Honestly, I did not understand how they could not trade Turner and get something for him with in reason, not the over priced stuff.
Sage has two more years left on his contract so it is not a one and done type of deal. His contract is very cap friendly which increases his value.
I am not saying do the deal just to get something it has to be the right offer which if it was a second then it would be the right deal.
badboy
Hall of Fame
We are in the driver's seat. Pressure is on Minnesota imo. My eyes get all sparkly when I think we could draft a LT,RB and a CB and still have 4th and 5th rounds for productivity AND we got a starting center for a 6th!! Come on Ricky baby show me what you got planned for that old 7th round selection. Maybe Colt Brennan?
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
Trades are weird. What a team is publicly saying they want is not necessarily what they want. We still have a lot of time before the draft, and markets have a way of making themselves.
The Turner non-trade is a good thing if LT has issues last year and not such a great thing if he doesn't. Looking back in retrospect is a funny thing, or so says the Atlanta Falcons.
We may love a trade come draft time and regret the same trade depending on how the season plays out.
AustinJB
Rookie
I wouldn't feel comfortable speaking in such absolutes but that's just me. You may be right...maybe Sage isn't going anywhere, but your reasoning doesn't mean anything given recent history.
Seems like I remember some saying the same thing about Carr a year ago. Something to the effect of 'we will not get rid of Carr for an unproven back-up QB'.
Well, as we all know, not only did we get rid of him and acquire an unproven back-up, we gave up two 2nd round picks for the unproven back-up...mainly b/c of the talent evaluation of Smithiak which led them to believe Schaub was worth the risk. Now, we have this current scenario which leads many of us to believe we acquired Gray in order to deal Rosenfels. It is a risk letting go of a capable back-up, but apparently Smithiak feels that Gray can step into that role AND we can get an extra draft pick.
I guess what I'm saying is that I trust the current regime to make the correct decisions...and IMO it seems that they may be leaning towards trading Rosenfels. If so, judging by our front office's track record, I believe they will make the correct call.
One plus for Sage is that we don't have the talent across the board as the better teams in the league have. We have a few rising stars and 1-2 confirmed star players. If we lose our starting QB to injury, the drop off can't be compensated for as easily by having other star players pick up the slack. We MUST have a good back up QB in order to be competitive. When looking at trade value, IMO, you have to look at the value of a player to YOU over what the rest of the league values that player at. Sage may be worth a 3rd on the open market, but to the Texans, I would want an early to mid 2nd. He's more valuable to us than the Vikings. Schaub might've won the games that Sage did, but would Gray?
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Gray for 600,000 $ is a much better deal than YKW for 1,000,000 $ . I wonder why the Giants did'nt go this route .
The Jags are a smashmouth team and if Gray wants to get paid learning the WCO for a year might be just the ticket .
The Jags are a smashmouth team and if Gray wants to get paid learning the WCO for a year might be just the ticket .
I think you can chalk that up to the GOBC. Palmer was familiar with YKW and not so with Gray. Even in the NFL (maybe especially in the NFL), it's who you know that counts.
Wolf
100% Texan
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
No, if traded for it will be a very cheap contract through 2013. If traded, the Texans would not be responsible for any bonuses already paid and starting salaries of 2008: $3.25 million, 2009: $2.9 million, 2010: $4.6 million, 2011: $4.9 million, 2012: $4.5 million, 2013: $4 million are cheap for a LT.
Valid concern.
DiehardChris
You betcha!
One thing out of this situation that I think is pretty hilarious... and shows quite a difference between our F.O. and our division rival Jags F.O.
Here are the details for Cleo Lemon's Jax contract:
We pick up their ex-#2, who has already proved he can win with that team - for 635K. Awesome.
Here are the details for Cleo Lemon's Jax contract:
We pick up their ex-#2, who has already proved he can win with that team - for 635K. Awesome.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Or compare Sage at 4 years, $7 mil with Cleo at 3 years, $8.1 mil.
Joe Texan
Inducted 04
Quinn came in as the #3 QB, To learn the system, Gary Will not release Sage for anything less than a two, and thaty is even iffy. Sage is old hand at this system and is highly regarded as a backbone on this team. There have been very few even pony up a 3 for a back up QB to the texans so if anything happens it will be on draft day, The probable thing not being Sage but the aquisition of a LT and Corner in the first twop picks.
Hindsight sees 20/20. If your aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle. What IF we trade Sage this year, Schaub gets hurt or his shoulder isn't ready to go, THEN what? Are you gonna wish we hadn't traded Sage? I am.
TEXANRED
Texan-American
The other way to look at it is Gray really was brought in to be the #3 just in case Schaub either goes down with injury or is ineffective. At that point during the 2009 offseason cutting Schaub and making Sage the starter with Gray as the #2 with a full year in the system.
I doubt it though. I see a trade coming on draft day.
Three QB's is a waist of a roster spot. Especially if you think that the Texans will cary 3 to 4 RB's on the active roster. Of course I am of the opinion that Sage will be gone and Green with be cut. Or maybe traded along with Sage.....
I doubt it though. I see a trade coming on draft day.
Three QB's is a waist of a roster spot. Especially if you think that the Texans will cary 3 to 4 RB's on the active roster. Of course I am of the opinion that Sage will be gone and Green with be cut. Or maybe traded along with Sage.....
TexansLucky13
53d Signal Batt
Owen Daniels is our #3 QB come draft day.
Wolf
100% Texan
http://vikingsmessageboard.com/viewtopic.php?t=16021&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
viking fans are ok with #3 but don't want to give up #2
http://www.purplepride.org/forums/index.php?topic=43468.0
viking fans are ok with #3 but don't want to give up #2
http://www.purplepride.org/forums/index.php?topic=43468.0
Thats kinda funny. Because for some odd reason me and my brother have always called my aunt deb, Uncle Deb and I dont think she has any balls.
LOL
For the rest of your post. No im not gonna regret trading Sage for two major reasons. If Schaub does get hurt
A. We most likely wont make the playoffs.
and
B. If we somehow magically do I dont think we willwin the Superbowl with Sage at QB.
Also we would get to see what Gray can really do under Kubiak. + extra draft picks.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
He's a backup QB - if he doesn't play, the mystique goes higher. There is not nearly enough talent in the NFL QB ranks, so if he goes next year without playing much, other teams will still remember his '07 season. In other words, what has been seen cannot be unseen.
Look at Schaub, he'd started all of 2 games when we traded for him and his record in those 2 games was 0-2. Additionally, the fact that the two games he started were in 2004 and 2005 didn't cause the NFL to forget about him after a season of riding the pine in 2006. While we were obviously the last team to attempt to acquire him from the Falcons, we were far from the first. The level of interest in Sage isn't as great, but neither are the stakes in terms of the compensation he'd bring.
I still think there's a pretty darn good chance that they trade him between now and whenever the '08 trading deadline is, but I don't think Schaub staying healthy hurts Sage's value at all - it may actually have the opposite effect.
Here's a question I have for those buying the company (and the Chronic's) line of the Texans going with 3 QBs in 2008:
Why didn't Smith & Kubiak bring in Quinn Gray earlier?
Free agency started 3 weeks ago. Gray could have been scooped up by another team in the mean time. I'm pretty sure he visited a couple of teams. And the Texans haven't brought in another QB other than Gray since FA began.
Here's the Sage/Quinn timeline:
2/28 - Don Banks of SI.com quotes a "league source" that the Vikings offered the Texans a 3rd round pick for Rosenfels. Houston is reported to be seeking a 2nd rounder.
2/29 - The Star Tribune reports that the talks between the Texans and Vikings had stalled, with Minnesota possibly turning to Bills backup QB J.P. Losman.
3/18 - The Star Tribune reports that Gus Frerotte will visit Minnesota to discuss the backup QB job.
3/19 - PFT reports that Gray will visit Houston.
3/20 - Frerotte leaves Minnesota without a contract.
3/24 - The Chronic reports that Gray is signed to a one year deal.
I don't know what the next timeline entry will be. But, I see a connection between what the Vikings have done, and the Quinn signing. My feeling is that once Frerotte made his visit, the Texans caved in to the Vikings' offer of the 3rd round pick. Which in turn, had Rick Smith on the horn to Drew Rosenhaus (Quinn's agent). It wouldn't surpise me if the Vikings aren't trying to work an extension with Rosenfels, right now. Pure speculation on my part. Tell me why I'm wrong.
Why didn't Smith & Kubiak bring in Quinn Gray earlier?
Free agency started 3 weeks ago. Gray could have been scooped up by another team in the mean time. I'm pretty sure he visited a couple of teams. And the Texans haven't brought in another QB other than Gray since FA began.
Here's the Sage/Quinn timeline:
2/28 - Don Banks of SI.com quotes a "league source" that the Vikings offered the Texans a 3rd round pick for Rosenfels. Houston is reported to be seeking a 2nd rounder.
2/29 - The Star Tribune reports that the talks between the Texans and Vikings had stalled, with Minnesota possibly turning to Bills backup QB J.P. Losman.
3/18 - The Star Tribune reports that Gus Frerotte will visit Minnesota to discuss the backup QB job.
3/19 - PFT reports that Gray will visit Houston.
3/20 - Frerotte leaves Minnesota without a contract.
3/24 - The Chronic reports that Gray is signed to a one year deal.
I don't know what the next timeline entry will be. But, I see a connection between what the Vikings have done, and the Quinn signing. My feeling is that once Frerotte made his visit, the Texans caved in to the Vikings' offer of the 3rd round pick. Which in turn, had Rick Smith on the horn to Drew Rosenhaus (Quinn's agent). It wouldn't surpise me if the Vikings aren't trying to work an extension with Rosenfels, right now. Pure speculation on my part. Tell me why I'm wrong.
Wolf
100% Texan
Gray's stats
http://www.nfl.com/players/quinngray/careerstats?id=GRA766862
sage's stats
http://www.nfl.com/players/sagerosenfels/careerstats?id=ROS396938
comparable, and sage has been slightly more accurate in his career
so if we get the value that we want, i am putting my trust in Kubiak to help Gray out more due to working with Kubiak and Shanahan
If we don't trade sage I am not going to worry about it
it is one of those things that if Matt doesn't get hurt, we will be saying "Why didn't we gain an extra pick?" if we trade him and matt gets hurt and gray underperforms we will Question the trade and (depending on the rookie and how he is doing on the team) the rookie
http://www.nfl.com/players/quinngray/careerstats?id=GRA766862
sage's stats
http://www.nfl.com/players/sagerosenfels/careerstats?id=ROS396938
comparable, and sage has been slightly more accurate in his career
so if we get the value that we want, i am putting my trust in Kubiak to help Gray out more due to working with Kubiak and Shanahan
If we don't trade sage I am not going to worry about it
it is one of those things that if Matt doesn't get hurt, we will be saying "Why didn't we gain an extra pick?" if we trade him and matt gets hurt and gray underperforms we will Question the trade and (depending on the rookie and how he is doing on the team) the rookie
Wolf
100% Texan
Guy on vikings MB made a good point Sage for a 3rd more than likely would be better than drafting anyone in the 3rd and developing them, esp if TJ is their starter.. Sage could push TJ for the starting position while a rookie would have a harder time
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
I wouldn't feel comfortable speaking in such absolutes but that's just me. You may be right...maybe Sage isn't going anywhere, but your reasoning doesn't mean anything given recent history.
Seems like I remember some saying the same thing about Carr a year ago. Something to the effect of 'we will not get rid of Carr for an unproven back-up QB'.
Well, as we all know, not only did we get rid of him and acquire an unproven back-up, we gave up two 2nd round picks for the unproven back-up...mainly b/c of the talent evaluation of Smithiak which led them to believe Schaub was worth the risk. Now, we have this current scenario which leads many of us to believe we acquired Gray in order to deal Rosenfels. It is a risk letting go of a capable back-up, but apparently Smithiak feels that Gray can step into that role AND we can get an extra draft pick.
I guess what I'm saying is that I trust the current regime to make the correct decisions...and IMO it seems that they may be leaning towards trading Rosenfels. If so, judging by our front office's track record, I believe they will make the correct call.
The difference was Carr was indisputably horrible.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
CAK,
I probably didn't make myself clear.............I meant specifically if we take on Bryant and he is suspended, especially long term or permanently-----shortly or down the line, it would make a seemingly cheap contract quite costly.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
If he grew to incorrigible then we would just cut him and carry no dead cap since the Vikings would assume the signing bonus.
This would be a great contract (sans signing bonus) to have if only on-field production were the only variable to consider for this type of young talent.
I do not think he is great, but his contract would be a tremendous value if it did happen.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Two other points to ponder:
- If we got McKinnie we would have three starters from Miami (FL) on the O line.
- McKinnie's agent is Mario's - Ben Dogra
- If we got McKinnie we would have three starters from Miami (FL) on the O line.
- McKinnie's agent is Mario's - Ben Dogra
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Exactly--this is precisely the kind of deal with very low risk for a guy with potential character issues. Zero dead money if unsuccessful, with the only risk a lost backup QB.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
Interesting Quinn Gray video.
FWIW, he mentions Schaub. Says nothing about Rosenfels.
Hmmmmm:
HT.com Quinn Gray video.
FWIW, he mentions Schaub. Says nothing about Rosenfels.
Hmmmmm:
HT.com Quinn Gray video.
Wolf
100% Texan
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Can McKinney not demand renegotiation of his contract (including guaranteed money and bonuses) from the receiving team prior to the completion of the trade (ala Hall from the Raiders)?
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
This is from the Sports/Texans online "front page" introducing the interview concerning the new acquisitions...........accuracy is not a consideration??????
Texans update: New faces
Texans update: New faces