Position importance scale?

[David's Busted Carr]

I was listening to the NFL Network on Sirius on my way to work this morning. This is a national broadcast so they have no biased opinions (which is nice). I just happened to be listening when a guy called in from Houston.

His question was assuming Peterson & Thomas are not available when we pick, most likely our decision will come down to LaRon Landry vs. Amobe Okoye. Both of the radio guys agreed with that. Then the caller asked which of the those guys would be a better pick and both of the radio guys said Okoye WITHOUT A DOUBT. (Keep in mind this was today AFTER Landry's steller combine).

They mentioned something about a "position importance scale" where there is a premium place on certain positions over others. And in this case a DT with Okoye's ability is "much harder to find" than a safety.

I was wondering how much stock teams actually put into that? I'm guessing quite a bit since that is why we chose Mario over Reggie last year. The Texans viewed Mario as a much more "rare and hard to find" talent than Reggie Bush.

So how would you rate the positions in order of importance vs. the ability to find premium players at the respective positions?

1) OT
2) QB
3) DE
4) CB
5) OG
6) DT

??? What do you guys think?

 

[TexansLucky13]

I would replace QB and CB on that list. I would consider an elite CB "harder to come by" than a QB.

 

[WillyP]

1. Qb
1. Qb
1. Qb

2. Ot
3. De
4. Cb
5. Olb

 

[real]

1)qb
2) Cb
3)lt
4)cb
5) De
6) Mlb

 

[steelbtexan]

qb
cb
lt
de
rb
lb

 

[run-david-run]

1. Qb
2. Ot
3. Dt/de
4. Og/c
5. Cb
6. Rb

 

[real]

If you have CB anywhere past three your list is wrong....LOL

 

[WillyP]

If you have CB anywhere past three your list is wrong....LOL

I disagree. You can't coach speed, but you can't coach size, either. Elite DE's (similar to elite left tackles) have that extremely rare combination of size, speed, quickness, and strength. Elite cornerbacks are slightly easier to find, IMO, than freaks of nature like Mario Williams or Julius Peppers.

 

[run-david-run]

If you have CB anywhere past three your list is wrong....LOL

Like when the Steelers won the Super Bowl with Ike Taylor as a starting CB, and the Colts with Jason David? CB's can be masked by a good front 4 and pressure on the QB, but give a QB time and all CB's will eventually get beat.

Look at the ProBowl corners: Champ Bailey (not in playoffs), Rasheen Mathis (not in playoffs), Ronde Barber (not in playoffs), DeAngelo Hall (not in playoffs). You can also add 2 more higly regarded corners in Pac Man Jones and Nate Clemets to that list, neither of which made the playoffs. Asante Samuel and Chris McAllister are the only two great CB's that even made the playoffs, and neither got to the Super Bowl.

 

[Wharton]

Took a little more general approach to it.
1. QB
2. RB
3. CB
4. OL
5. DL
6. LB
7. WR
8. S
9. TE/FB

 

[beerlover]

franchise QB's trump everything (reason why Texans cannot pass on Brady Quinn if he is still on the board @ #8) but after that its OT, DE & CB.

Tackles

2007 #2 Joe Thomas Detorit Wisconsin?

2006 #4 D'Brickashaw Ferguson Jets Virginia

2005 #13 Jammal Brown Saints Oklahoma

2004 #2 Robert Gallery Raiders Iowa

2003 #8 Jordan Gross Panthers Utah

2002 #4 Mike Williams Bills Texas

2001 #2 Leonard Davis Cardinals Texas

2000 #3 Chris Samuels Redskins Alabama

1999 #14 John Tait Chiefs Brigham Young

1998 #7 Kyle Turley Saints San Diego State

1997 #1 Orlando Pace Rams Ohio State

1996 #4 Jonathan Ogden Ravens UCLA

1995 #2 Tony Boselli Jaguars USC

1994 #14 Bernard Williams Eagles Georgia

1993 #8 Willie Roaf Saints Louisiana Tech

1992 #8 Bob Whitfield Falcons Stanford

1991 #7 Charles McRae Buccaneers Tennessee

1990 #9 Richmond Webb Dolphins Texas A&M

1989 #2 Tony Mandarich Packers Michigan State

1988 #4 Paul Gruber Buccaneers Wisconsin

1987 #15 John Clay Raiders Missouri

1986 #6 Jim Dombrowski Saints Virginia

1985 #2 Bill Fralic Falcons Pittsburgh

1984 #5 Mark Adickes Chiefs Baylor

1984 #2 Dean Steinkuhler Oilers Nebraska

1983 #4 Chris Hinton Broncos Northwestern

 

[real]

I disagree. You can't coach speed, but you can't coach size, either. Elite DE's (similar to elite left tackles) have that extremely rare combination of size, speed, quickness, and strength. Elite cornerbacks are slightly easier to find, IMO, than freaks of nature like Mario Williams or Julius Peppers.

So you'd rather have Julius Peppers than Champ Bailey ?

Yeah, you're right...top notch Corners are all over the place, and good DE's aren't....

please come back to reality.....

Like when the Steelers won the Super Bowl with Ike Taylor as a starting CB, and the Colts with Jason David? CB's can be masked by a good front 4 and pressure on the QB, but give a QB time and all CB's will eventually get beat.

I never said they couldn't be masked...But if you have a lock down corner you don't need as much of a pass rush...

A lock down corner can almost completely eliminate a reciever from the offense....A good Pass rush takes into account the whole D-line which isn't a fair comparison...unless you want to compare a good pass rush to a good secondary....

I'll take the secondary....

 

[run-david-run]

franchise QB's trump everything (reason why Texans cannot pass on Brady Quinn if he is still on the board @ #8) but after that its OT, DE & CB.

Tackles

2007 #2 Joe Thomas Detorit Wisconsin?

2006 #4 D'Brickashaw Ferguson Jets Virginia

2005 #13 Jammal Brown Saints Oklahoma

2004 #2 Robert Gallery Raiders Iowa

2003 #8 Jordan Gross Panthers Utah

2002 #4 Mike Williams Bills Texas

2001 #2 Leonard Davis Cardinals Texas

2000 #3 Chris Samuels Redskins Alabama

1999 #14 John Tait Chiefs Brigham Young

1998 #7 Kyle Turley Saints San Diego State

1997 #1 Orlando Pace Rams Ohio State

1996 #4 Jonathan Ogden Ravens UCLA

1995 #2 Tony Boselli Jaguars USC

1994 #14 Bernard Williams Eagles Georgia

1993 #8 Willie Roaf Saints Louisiana Tech

1992 #8 Bob Whitfield Falcons Stanford

1991 #7 Charles McRae Buccaneers Tennessee

1990 #9 Richmond Webb Dolphins Texas A&M

1989 #2 Tony Mandarich Packers Michigan State

1988 #4 Paul Gruber Buccaneers Wisconsin

1987 #15 John Clay Raiders Missouri

1986 #6 Jim Dombrowski Saints Virginia

1985 #2 Bill Fralic Falcons Pittsburgh

1984 #5 Mark Adickes Chiefs Baylor

1984 #2 Dean Steinkuhler Oilers Nebraska

1983 #4 Chris Hinton Broncos Northwestern

If they could pass on Leinart and Young, they can easily pass on Quinn, and I hope they do, because you can improve this team significantly by adding someone like Brown, Okoye or Landry, while Quinn just does not impress me.

Here is to hoping AP falls to 8.

 

[real]

Look at the ProBowl corners: Champ Bailey (not in playoffs), Rasheen Mathis (not in playoffs), Ronde Barber (not in playoffs), DeAngelo Hall (not in playoffs). You can also add 2 more higly regarded corners in Pac Man Jones and Nate Clemets to that list, neither of which made the playoffs. Asante Samuel and Chris McAllister are the only two great CB's that even made the playoffs, and neither got to the Super Bowl.

O.k....


Since you want to use that asanine approach, the next time the Titans win a game VY gets ALL the credit....

 

[beerlover]

If they could pass on Leinart and Young, they can easily pass on Quinn, and I hope they do, because you can improve this team significantly by adding someone like Brown, Okoye or Landry, while Quinn just does not impress me.

Here is to hoping AP falls to 8.

who knows? I've never been able to pick the Texans 1st rounder anyway but I don't see how they could pass on BQ if he is still available given the QB free agent market, drop off after BQ and the demise of David franchise

 

[WillyP]

So you'd rather have Julius Peppers than Champ Bailey ?

Obviously, I'd want them both. However, if I had a top-three pick and they were both available in the same draft, I'd give the edge to Peppers.

 

[kastofsna]

get enough pressure from your front 4, and your corners' play isn't that important at all.

1: QB
2: NT
3: LT
4: DE
5: MLB

 

[real]

Obviously, I'd want them both. However, if I had a top-three pick and they were both available in the same draft, I'd give the edge to Peppers.

I can't fault you for having that opinion...They're both phenomenal players...

But think about how many good pass rushing DE's there have been compared to lockdown corners....

Trust me when I say a Lock Down corner is probably one of THE most valued things in the NFL behind QB, and LT....

 

[real]

get enough pressure from your front 4, and your corners' play isn't that important at all.

You are comparing the rush of the whole front four to a corner back ?

 

[WillyP]

I can't fault you for having that opinion...They're both phenomenal players...

But think about how many good pass rushing DE's there have been compared to lockdown corners....

Trust me when I say a Lock Down corner is probably one of THE most valued things in the NFL behind QB, and LT....

and yet there's never been a "lockdown corner" drafted #1 overall. that should tell you all you need to know about how NFL teams value that position vs. defensive ends.

 

[WillyP]

You are comparing the rush of the whole front four to a corner back ?

the QB can throw away from the cornerback, but an elite pass-rushing DE can shed his blockers and seek out the quarterback.

 

[Errant Hothy]

If you have CB anywhere past three your list is wrong....LOL

I think a good FS would help this team more then another good CB. But the problem of the secondary can be addressed two ways 1) imrpoving the overall talent of the secondary with either a CB of a FS thus giving the D-line more time to get to the QB or 2) get a good DT who can rush up the middle thus giving the QB less time to throw and increasing the chances of him either making a mistake or the DBs still being in coverage. Personally my chart follows:

LT
FS
DT
RB
QB

As for the Champ vs. Peppers question give me Peppers all day everyday.

 

[Please_Evolve]

I think it depends on your approach to building a team.

1. QB...regaurdless of what happens 98% of the time the QB is the first guy to touch the ball and the decision maker on either side. Wheter you're facing him on Defense or working together on Offense. Then again medicore QB's have won SBs.

2. OT. Whether righty or lefty the bulk of pressure usually is from the outside. Protecting your decision maker is vital.

3. DE. Again most of the pressure comes from outside. Having a guy you have to account for or that can get past the T is key to getting pressure ona QB.

4. S. Might not be a popular pick at this spot but Looking at the past having a guy in the secondary that can drop back in coverage and support the run stop is instrumental in a defense IMO. They help mask CB's that aren't that stellar and can assist with a subpar LB corps. See the effect guys like Ronnie Lott, Brian Dawkins, John Lynch, Ed Reed, Mike Brown, Eugene Robinson, Darren Woodson can impact a game.

Of course there are exceptions that arise with each position that makes a certain player at their respective positions invaluble to a team. I think if you porbably look back at most great teams...these positions are most crucial IMO again.

My hope is if Levi Brown is gone at 8....Landry is our guy. After his combine i'm tempted to say even with Brown there take Landry. The kid is going to be an impact guy that would probably give us another DROY and give us the secondary help we'll need in the coming years in the AFC south.

 

[kastofsna]

You are comparing the rush of the whole front four to a corner back ?

the whole secondary, really. they just need to be competent with some really good front 4 pressure. see: bears.

 

[Maddict5]

So you'd rather have Julius Peppers than Champ Bailey ?

Yeah, you're right...top notch Corners are all over the place, and good DE's aren't....

please come back to reality.....



I never said they couldn't be masked...But if you have a lock down corner you don't need as much of a pass rush...

A lock down corner can almost completely eliminate a reciever from the offense....A good Pass rush takes into account the whole D-line which isn't a fair comparison...unless you want to compare a good pass rush to a good secondary....

I'll take the secondary....

I can't fault you for having that opinion...They're both phenomenal players...

But think about how many good pass rushing DE's there have been compared to lockdown corners....

Trust me when I say a Lock Down corner is probably one of THE most valued things in the NFL behind QB, and LT....

LOL i seem to be arguing with you alot today but here you are definitely wrong- while a champ bailey etc is very valuable and improves the defence alot..a premier pass rusher is much more valuable..WHY?

because if you have bad cover cb's you can always play a zone defence to help mask their inabilities- what can you do to mask a bad pass-rusher??

 

[real]

LMAO...

I'm not going to argue with y'all....

I think it's funny actually....

Just about evrery team has a good or great pass rushing DE or "OLB"....
Where are the lock down corners ?

It' not even close....really it isn't....

 

[real]

LOL i seem to be arguing with you alot today but here you are definitely wrong- while a champ bailey etc is very valuable and improves the defence alot..a premier pass rusher is much more valuable..WHY?

because if you have bad cover cb's you can always play a zone defence to help mask their inabilities- what can you do to mask a bad pass-rusher??

I don't think this topic is worth arguing anymore...

Elite corner trumps Elite DE all day, every day...period.

 

[WillyP]

I don't think this topic is worth arguing anymore...

Elite corner trumps Elite DE all day, every day...period.

not according to NFL draft history. again, a CB has NEVER been drafted #1 overall. In fact, since 1982, NFL teams have spent 92 first-round picks on defensive ends whereas they've only spent 73 on cornerbacks. That tells you all you need to know about how the positions are ranked by the professionals who draft young prospects for a living.

 

[Meloy]

and yet there's never been a "lockdown corner" drafted #1 overall. that should tell you all you need to know about how NFL teams value that position vs. defensive ends.

I tend to lean towards truroyaltytx here. One play gets past a cb and it is 6 points. A de rarely leads to points or even a turn over. Each listed is important but I would go QB, CB, LT, CB and MLB. Quinn is not a franchise Qb imo.

 

[real]

not according to NFL draft history. again, a CB has NEVER been drafted #1 overall. In fact, since 1982, NFL teams have spent 92 first-round picks on defensive ends whereas they've only spent 73 on cornerbacks. That tells you all you need to know about how the positions are ranked by the professionals who draft young prospects for a living.

So you base your positional importance on how many have been taken in the draft ?

Question: If that's your method, why didn't you make your whole list like that ? How come you just didn't look at that data and make your list according to how many of what kind of player has been drafted ? Why is it that you are only using this method for the sake of this argument ?

Answer: because people use data and stats to try and make themselves seem right, and sometimes fail to see that they have really just contadicted themselves.

 

[real]

Deion said it best...

"give me a great QB and two lock down corners, and we'll run the tables"

 

[kastofsna]

LMAO...

I'm not going to argue with y'all....

I think it's funny actually....

Just about evrery team has a good or great pass rushing DE or "OLB"....
Where are the lock down corners ?

It' not even close....really it isn't....

so because they're more rare, that makes them more important?

 

[real]

so because they're more rare, that makes them more important?

Yes. Duh....

If there is a drought, does water become more important ?

If there is a food shortage does a piece of bread become more important ?

Actually it's not the whole reason, but it's part of it...

 

[kastofsna]

a shutdown corner is a filet de bœuf. if you're starving, you don't need the best meal possible to satisfy your hunger.

06 colts
05 steelers
04 patriots
03 patriots
02 bucs
01 patriots
00 ravens
99 rams
98 broncos
97 broncos
etc

there's some damn good corners on those teams, but how many "shutdown" corners have contributed to super bowl winning teams?

all those teams had a front 4 that played dominant. look at how the colts played in the playoffs.

your analogy doesn't work too well.

 

[Maddict5]

I don't think this topic is worth arguing anymore...

Elite corner trumps Elite DE all day, every day...period.

hmm, yet you are nearly the only person on this thread that thinks so. thanks for not responding to my (and others) legitimate arguments why you are wrong. bland, asinine statements are much better

 

[rollinstone18]

1. Lt
2. Fs
3. Rb
4. Dt
5. De
6. Qb

 

[kastofsna]

hmm, yet you are nearly the only person on this thread that thinks so. thanks for not responding to my (and others) legitimate arguments why you are wrong. bland, asinine statements are much better

yeah you'll see that with the vince young-lovers. lots of very vanilla cookiecutter statements.

 

[HJam72]

I just want to say:


duh....lol.

 

[real]

there's some damn good corners on those teams, but how many "shutdown" corners have contributed to super bowl winning teams?

There haven't been many shutdown corners period, so I'm not sure how many should have contributed to Superbowl teams...as compared to the many DE's...What exactly is your point there ?

But anywho....have fun with this one...

We can just agree to disagree....no harm there

 

[kastofsna]

i'm trying to decipher what makes a shutdown corner so important if they don't really exist and teams seem to do just fine without them, and not many of these shutdown corners have rings on their fingers.

 

[real]

Your defense is almost complete...

But you're missing a CB, and DE....

Are you guys telling me that if you were drafting you'd pick the stud DE over the Stud CB assuming both their abilities were equal ?

 

[TexansLucky13]

hmm, yet you are nearly the only person on this thread that thinks so. thanks for not responding to my (and others) legitimate arguments why you are wrong. bland, asinine statements are much better

Wrong. I agree completely with him. I was the first person to respond to this thread and I stressed the importance of a CB.

I personally think the draft is slanted. Whatever the reason may be, talented DB's seem to fall in the draft. I find it sickening that pretty boys like Brady Quinn and Matt Leinart are taken while someone who is surely going to help your team (like a talented CB) has no chance. I just don't get it.

 

[real]

i'm trying to decipher what makes a shutdown corner so important if they don't really exist and teams seem to do just fine without them, and not many of these shutdown corners have rings on their fingers.

Two that I can think of without even trying, are Deion Sanders and Ty Law and they have multiple superbowls....

 

[kastofsna]

Are you guys telling me that if you were drafting you'd pick the stud DE over the Stud CB assuming both their abilities were equal ?

yup yup. it all starts up front.

but i'm glad you finally used the term "equal" here. because julius peppers doesn't equate to champ bailey. so despite my preference for d-line over CB, i'd still take bailey over peppers.

 

[kastofsna]

Two that I can think of without even trying with multiple superbowls are Deion Sanders and Ty Law....

true, but the patriots manage to win a super bowl when law was injured, too. in fact, they had a TON of injuries in the secondary that year. they had a few rookies starting against the colts in the playoffs.

 

[real]

true, but the patriots manage to win a super bowl when law was injured, too. in fact, they had a TON of injuries in the secondary that year. they had a few rookies starting against the colts in the playoffs.

Was Asaunte Samuels one of them?

 

[TexansLucky13]

true, but the patriots manage to win a super bowl when law was injured, too. in fact, they had a TON of injuries in the secondary that year. they had a few rookies starting against the colts in the playoffs.

He contributed to the win over the Colts though (at least one of them). What did he get, three interceptions and a TD in that Championship game? (correct me if wrong please)

I would choose a stud CB over a stud DE. Stud CB's are much harder to come by.

 

[real]

true, but the patriots manage to win a super bowl when law was injured, too. in fact, they had a TON of injuries in the secondary that year. they had a few rookies starting against the colts in the playoffs.

The problem is that you're judging it from a perspective of Superbowls...That takes a team effort so I don't even know why were using that as a gauge...unless you all want to admit right now that VY really did win those games by himself...


But here's a gauge for you....Name me one BAD defense with an elite corner...

Better yet...Name me a Mediocre defense that has a good secondary...


I can name tons a bad Defenses with some of the best DE's...

 

[kastofsna]

Was Asaunte Samuels one of them?

yeah samuel started. hardly a shutdown corner at that point.

 

[kastofsna]

He contributed to the win over the Colts though (at least one of them). What did he get, three interceptions and a TD in that Championship game? (correct me if wrong please)

that was in '03, i'm talking about '04.