"Coach convinced QB's technique fails under stress"

[infantrycak]

As far as Bradshaw and Testerverde. Bradshaw's 5th year is slightly before my time, but I think this is when he really began to turn it on. Since I don't have the hindsight of watching his play in 1975, I have no choice but to turn to some numbers and he threw 18td's to only 9 picks that year.

1975 was his sixth year and yes that is when things turned. I watched Bradshaw a bunch over the years. Dude was a gamer but far from the greatest QB ever. He was benched one or more times in his 1st 5 years. His judgment definitely got better but never great over his career but they also oh my god--put some talent around him--might be more than just a little coincidence that the 1974 draft netted Lynn Swan, Jack Lambert, John Stallworth and Mike Webster--all in the hall of fame.

another prime example of a totally worthless stat. The game was different back then too. It was much more vertical and QB %'s were much lower than today's QBs till more of the Gillman/Walsh/Brown concepts took root in the modern passing game.

You have to actually watch a QB to see if he is any good. Stats don't translate like they do in baseball. A 350 hitter is what he is in baseball since its an individual match up. In football there are too many variables such as a billion 4 yard passes to pump up your stats.

What stat? Not a real appropriate time to pull out the anti-stat argument--none were referenced. Bradshaw got benched at least once and I believe more than that during that time frame. He was definitely a gamer but had very poor judgment to begin with. As for stats--there is no way you can spin 6 TD's and 24 INT's into a good thing in any era.

 

[Osso]

I have never seen a QB get 5 full years at one stop to prove himself. Name one other QB anywhere that has gotten 5 full years to prove he can just be a decent QB. Not even great, just decent. Name one that has had this much time with one team. I dare ya to try.

Troy Aikman

Ken Anderson

Steve Bartkowski

Sammy Baugh

Pete Beathard

Jeff Blake

George Blanda

Drew Bledsoe

Terry Bradshaw

Bubby Brister

John Brodie

Aaron Brooks

Ed Brown

Mark Brunell

Adrian Burk


And that is just the letters a and b....please take your weak ass argument some where else.

 

[Vinny]

And that is just the letters a and b....please take your weak ass argument some where else.

Just throwing a bunch of names out and insulting Porky isn't much of an argument.

 

[Vinny]

What stat? Not a real appropriate time to pull out the anti-stat argument--none were referenced. Bradshaw got benched at least once and I believe more than that during that time frame. He was definitely a gamer but had very poor judgment to begin with. As for stats--there is no way you can spin 6 TD's and 24 INT's into a good thing in any era.

70.92 QB rating stat that TexansFanatic laid down. QB rating is a totally useless stat imo. Give me a guy who takes some shots downfield and throws some TD's and a few INT's over a guy who throws nothing but 4 yard passes and has to have 18 play drives to score. The latter gets the better rating....but isn't always the better QB.

 

[Marcus]

So, let me honor you guys, and say that out of the last 35 years, we have two examples out of the hundreds of starters during that time period. I think that makes my point quite nicely, thanks.

I know you want to always ping on those 5 years, Porky. But 4 of those could be thrown out, considering the lovely coaching that existed here.

You could do Kubes a small favor, and allow him at least 1 year to try to undo all that damage. At least he's being honest and forthright about Carr's faults, along with being astute enough to recognize what they even are. I'll even go so far as to agree they might . . . might . . have won more games had Sage started instead of Carr.

But again, Kubes has shown me anough already, that I'm willing to see what he can do with Carr for the rest of the season before I call it a lost cause.

You aren't planning on dying tomorrow, are ya?

 

[Porky]

Troy Aikman

Ken Anderson

Steve Bartkowski

Sammy Baugh

Pete Beathard

Jeff Blake

George Blanda

Drew Bledsoe

Terry Bradshaw

Bubby Brister

John Brodie

Aaron Brooks

Ed Brown

Mark Brunell

Adrian Burk


And that is just the letters a and b....please take your weak ass argument some where else.

I'm not sure why I am responding to your clueless insult laden retort, but here goes.

Most of your examples are from another era as Vinny succintly pointed out. But, just to show you how stupid your argument is, let's take a couple of the more recent ones you mentioned. Troy Aikman put up 3445 yards, threw for 23 touchdown, with 14 picks in year 4, not year 5. Drew Bledsoe put up 4086 yards, threw for 27 Touchdown, with 15 int in year 4. So, take your own weak ass argument some where else.

 

[hollywood_texan]

Troy Aikman

Ken Anderson

Steve Bartkowski

Sammy Baugh

Pete Beathard

Jeff Blake

George Blanda

Drew Bledsoe

Terry Bradshaw

Bubby Brister

John Brodie

Aaron Brooks

Ed Brown

Mark Brunell

Adrian Burk


And that is just the letters a and b....please take your weak ass argument some where else.

How many of those guys lived up to their complete expectation? Most of them didn't.

By the way, Troy Aikman? I think that guy won two Super Bowls before his 5th year. So, I think that is one of your examples that be can pulled.

Carr was a #1 pick in the draft is highly compensated. That is the reason for this discussion. If Carr was paid half the amount and a second day pick we probably wouldn't be discussing this because he wouldn't be on the team. In other words, he would be very expendable.

McNair and this Franchise have a lot wraped up in Carr to succeed from so many perspectives. If Carr doesn't come through, there is going to be a lot discussion how he just kept getting chances but didn't come through. McNair is so far into this thing with Carr that he will probably ride this thing out for the remainder of Carr's contract. Why not, lose a game like last week and people are satisfied.

 

[infantrycak]

Just throwing a bunch of names out and insulting Porky isn't much of an argument.

Agreed--if you're going to toss names at least limit it to successes. Brooks is on his way out of the NFL for instance.

PS--Aikman went to the pro-bowl his 3rd, 4th, 5th, ... years in the league so that hardly qualifies for waiting for his 5th year. Really need to be careful when throwing around "weak ass" and that kind of stuff.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

Troy Aikman

Ken Anderson

Steve Bartkowski

Sammy Baugh

Pete Beathard

Jeff Blake

George Blanda

Drew Bledsoe

Terry Bradshaw

Bubby Brister

John Brodie

Aaron Brooks

Ed Brown

Mark Brunell

Adrian Burk


And that is just the letters a and b....please take your weak ass argument some where else.

Just because a QB played 5 years, does not prove anything. The team has to be expecting something different from what they had seen on the fied.

Seems like Troy aikman was a Superbowl QB five years into his career. I won't bother after that.

The point is the Texans are betting the exception not the rule when it comes to Carr. On the field, he has been an average, inconstistent player. the Texans are hoping for him to become a different type player nearly 70 starts into is his career. Very rare.

BTW, it is always a good thing to understand the point before trying to insult someone.

 

[infantrycak]

70.92 QB rating stat that TexansFanatic laid down. QB rating is a totally useless stat imo. Give me a guy who takes some shots downfield and throws some TD's and a few INT's over a guy who throws nothing but 4 yard passes and has to have 18 play drives to score. The latter gets the better rating....but isn't always the better QB.

Sorry--thought you were talking about me. Self-aggrandizement urge. Bradshaw did take a long time to develop though.

 

[Vinny]

Sorry--thought you were talking about me. Self-aggrandizement urge. Bradshaw did take a long time to develop though.

no prob...for every one you may misread, I can top it with a dozen for me...

Bradshaw was certainly a late bloomer. I forget who said it but someone once said that Bradshaw couldn't spell cat if you spotted him a C and an A. He wasn't the sharpest prospect in the QB drawer.

 

[hollywood_texan]

The point is the Texans are betting the exception not the rule when it comes to Carr.

Very well put. My thoughts exactly.

I wish I would have put it that straight-forward myself at lot earlier.

 

[hollywood_texan]

I forget who said it but someone once said that Bradshaw couldn't spell cat if you spotted him a C and an A. He wasn't the sharpest prospect in the QB drawer.

It was another Hollywood guy, Hollywood Henderson from Austin, Texas.

I from Austin, Texas myself.

That is probably were the similarties end.

 

[infantrycak]

It was another Hollywood guy, Hollywood Henderson from Austin, Texas.

I from Austin, Texas myself.

That is probably were the similarties probably end.

While we are playing can you name games, can anyone name someone who pissed away more talent than Hollywood Henderson? The guy was a playmaker and then done.

Of course then he went and won the lottery twice.

 

[SESupergenius]

70.92 QB rating stat that TexansFanatic laid down. QB rating is a totally useless stat imo. Give me a guy who takes some shots downfield and throws some TD's and a few INT's over a guy who throws nothing but 4 yard passes and has to have 18 play drives to score. The latter gets the better rating....but isn't always the better QB.

I contend that the QB rating should have fumbles and/or fumbles lost equated into that stat. It's still a very good measuring stick if the QB has lot of attempts to go on. You can't just say that "oh he threw for 70% of his passes, but still isn't a good QB." Carr has done well to find open receivers, but hasn't done well in keeping the ball and scoring points.

There is nothing I've seen so far that makes me think that he can't continue to improve and get the job done. If anyone is basing Rosenfels performance on preseason and late "trash" time against Tennessee then you can't discount Carr's 70% in regular games and his offensive score late against the Colts. I for one would love to see how Rosenfels deals a good Giants D or each QB have equal time in equal situations, I just don't see that until Carr falls out of favor.

 

[SESupergenius]

no prob...for every one you may misread, I can top it with a dozen for me...

Bradshaw was certainly a late bloomer. I forget who said it but someone once said that Bradshaw couldn't spell cat if you spotted him a C and an A. He wasn't the sharpest prospect in the QB drawer.

Wasn't the Redskins' Williams a dumb QB too, but somehow has a ring.

 

[Porky]

Just because a QB played 5 years, does not prove anything. The team has to be expecting something different from what they had seen on the fied.

Seems like Troy aikman was a Superbowl QB five years into his career. I won't bother after that.

The point is the Texans are betting the exception not the rule when it comes to Carr. On the field, he has been an average, inconstistent player. the Texans are hoping for him to become a different type player nearly 70 starts into is his career. Very rare.

BTW, it is always a good thing to understand the point before trying to insult someone.

Very well said, and that was my overarching point. There may be the proverbial needle in the haystack, so I will rephrase my point slightly and say it is rare indeed, and that is with one coach, or multiple coaches for one QB to get 70 starts just to show he can play. Now, we can debate this all day long, but if someone wants to argue this point, argue it like infantrycak and texansfanatic, not osso, who decided it would be better to flame me, then make like a donkey and make a complete ass of himself.

 

[Vinny]

Wasn't the Redskins' Williams a dumb QB too, but somehow has a ring.

I think he was just black. The league still had some issues back then when it came to black QB's. He turned Tampa Bay around and went on to win a SB with the Skins. The Bucs were laughing stocks till they drafted Doug Williams. He took a historically bad Buc team to the playoffs.

edited to add this...

Williams was the 17th overall pick of the 1978 draft, chosen by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers out of Grambling State. He led them to three playoff appearances and one NFC title game from 1979 to 1982, but an acrimonious contract dispute with owner Hugh Culverhouse led Williams to leave the Bucs and the NFL to play in the United States Football League. His 31-34-1 regular season record, and 1-3 playoff record made him the best quarterback in Buc history. The Bucs, who had never been to the playoffs before Williams arrived, had gone to the playoffs three times in four years and played in the 1979 NFC Championship Game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Williams_(football_player)

 

[Runner]

Good discussion. We got through a "pros and cons" of some aspect of Carr with very few cries of "lover" or "hater" and no deleted posts. Not bad at all.

 

[Osso]

You must be retarded...all I did was point out many more qb's who have been given a chance to succeed. You are the moron who made the original post asking for qb's. I gave them to you. Don't try to yank me into your bs.

You want to hate on carr so be it. But the fact remains that many qbs that don't have his ability, have been given time to grow into "decent" qb's. So stfu.

not to mention, but I think he is already decent.

 

[Double Barrel]

Lay up--Terry Bradshaw.

You could have put Mickey Mouse at QB with that offensive talent and the Steel Curtain defense and they'd still have won multiple championships.

Put Bradshaw on one of those expansion teams of that era and I have no doubt he'd be considered a has-been from way back when. He certainly wouldn't be blabbing every Sunday morning on Fox's pre-game.

Troy Aikman

Ken Anderson

Steve Bartkowski

Sammy Baugh

Pete Beathard

Jeff Blake

George Blanda

Drew Bledsoe

Terry Bradshaw

Bubby Brister

John Brodie

Aaron Brooks

Ed Brown

Mark Brunell

Adrian Burk

With a few exceptions, way to pick out a list of loser QBs to support a pro-DC argument.

 

[Runner]

Good discussion. We got through a "pros and cons" of some aspect of Carr with very few cries of "lover" or "hater" and no deleted posts. Not bad at all.

I may have to take this all back.

 

[Vinny]

I may have to take this all back.

I took care of osso, apparently he doesn't take a hint well.

 

[kcwilson]

Two left feet don't make a right.

Ah, yes, but three left turns = a right turn.

Moral of the story, if you screw up enough, then things sometimes accidentally work out.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

In my opinion in order for Carr to reach his ceiling , he has to be extremely competitive . If you look at his body of work he's been here five years , he's made a lot of money and has gotten sacked 250 or so ... in his mind does he have something to prove .

 

[jgl35]

While we are playing can you name games, can anyone name someone who pissed away more talent than Hollywood Henderson? The guy was a playmaker and then done.

Of course then he went and won the lottery twice.

Dwane Thomas RB Dallas

 

[DRAMA]

Pretty fair analysis, although I might quibble a bit on the details. I know I will get slammed for this, but I have been wanting to say this since Sunday, so here goes.

If Sage had started the last two games start to finsh, this team would be 4-4, and we would be in the playoff hunt. With Carr, we are 2-6, and going nowhere.

Again, I like Carr but I completely agree with this! I'll say it over and over - it's the 'feel' of the game not the arm. Pro QB's can throw the football but the ones who can't 'feel' tha game are usually out of the league. Some learn it over time. Maybe Carr could learn it over time - maybe Sage has now learned it. If I HAD, ABSOLUTELY HAD to win ONE SINGLE GAME.....

who would I start? Honestly....I go Sage. I like DC but I'd start Sage because of the 'feel.'

 

[The Pencil Neck]

One thing that is very important in life is realizing when you are in over your head and doing something about it. Self-evaluation is so critical and it seems to me from what I have read that Carr doesn't do that.

It seems as though Carr went through his first 4 years on autopilot not questioning a thing from Capers or getting help somewhere else.

If I was the #1 pick in the draft and with a $60 million dollar contract, I would like to think that I could realize my shortcomings and find some way to fix them despite coaching staff or talent around me.

It seems like Carr just waits around for someone to tell him something than trying to figuring it out on his own.

I don't know. I wonder about this. I wonder how many people are really pro-active in their jobs and to what degree. I mean, I'm very good at what I do but I got on a 6-month contract that was extended for 13 years and during that time, I did very little to improve my skill set. I was well paid and comfortable and had other outside interests that I spent most of my time pursuing.

I still don't take much time improving my skill set.

I lost that contract and went back into the work force. Got another job. There was some skills that would help me do my job better and I picked up those skills. But as soon as I got comfy again, I stopped learning except as it pleases me.

For a kid coming out of college who has been coached his entire life... I don't know what a person in that position would expect. I can imagine coming out of college and then putting myself at the coaches' disposal and just doing everything they told me to do because they were the authorities. Granted, I can also imagine studying my ass off and trying to figure out different ways to improve my game.

I just don't know if I can bag on Carr for trusting his coaches to be doing what they're supposed to be doing and training him.

 

[thunderkyss]

Whats the catch? Sage is probably at the peak of his QB career. Kubiak knows QBs, and I get the feeling that what we see from Sage is abuot as good as you could ever expect.


Lets also not forget that Dan Reeves, highly touted QB evaluator, and someone Mike Vick recently quoted in a positive light, also made an independent evalution of Carr and liked the potential.

First, how can you put DanReeves & Mike Vick's names so close together, and have us think highly of his QB evaluating skills??

Next, where does this idea about Sage come from?? He's been in the league one year longer than David, there is no reason to believe that his upside isn't as great as David's....... just because we hadn't heard of him before doesn't mean he can't play. We've all seen him play, and know he's got some skills.

He actually looks more like a good JakePlummer than David ever will....... not knocking on David, but I don't think Plummer is the end all be all of what a QB should look like, and I think David can be a better QB than Jake was last year.

As far as I know, Sage has never been cut.... he's been picked up by one team after another thinking that he showed promise, and if what we heard two Sunday's ago about Kubiak & Shanahan evaluating Sage is true, then we should all understand that Sage was brought over as insurance, if it is proven that David can't take us where we want to go.

In the event that we decide our future & David's future will follow seperate paths, then don't be expecting to look for a franchise QB in the '07 draft, unless Kubiak sees something special..... like a Cutler.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

So, let me honor you guys, and say that out of the last 35 years, we have two examples out of the hundreds of starters during that time period. I think that makes my point quite nicely, thanks.

I think I've missed the argument so I might be misunderstanding the point here but...

Most teams are very reactive with their QB's. Most QB's don't get a chance to blossom later in their careers anymore (I think it was more common in the earlier days). But there are guys like Brad Johnson, Steve Young, Rich Gannon, Hasselbeck, and (I think) many others, that really didn't blossom until after 5 years... just not with the same team that drafted them.

Usually, if a team is consistently losing, they place the blame at the foot of the QB even if it doesn't really belong there. And then there are guys like McNair that really aren't that impressive statistically who get to play for years because they're on a winning team.

If this wasn't the point of the discussion, I apologize.

 

[Wolf]

I think what has hurt David (besides all the sacks) is have we ever really had a legit TE until this year?

Aikman's name was mentioned but Novacek bailed him out time and time again in key situations.

Here's to Daniels becoming a legit TE


IMO for any QB, TE is his security blanket esp. when they are rookies..

David has to get reprogramed of all that was learned.. I was scanning through stats and for what it is worth..

what little I scanned.. he is on pace to break the Texan completion record,TD record(record is 16 he is on pace for 18), yards(record is 3531 yards,he's on pace for 3400) and lower is Int rates. (record is 15 he is on pace for 10)

I know you stat guys will comeback with wins/losses.. well fine. but Carr is improving and it takes time for Kubiak to work the scheme with this offense same as smith on the defense.. players have to "play" and not "think" ..we are still in the thinking stage.

BTW stats start on page 5
http://www.houstontexans.com/wpimages/uploaded/pdfs/texans_records_2005.pdf

 

[Wolf]

my previous post wasn't intended to be a "Carr homer" post, but many had good feelings about Carr after 2004 ..and that is where he is ...

AJ is having a season also like 2004 ...


I am just trying to make a point that it is going to take time on this offense. Next season.. well be better light it up

 

[thunderkyss]

What stat? Not a real appropriate time to pull out the anti-stat argument--none were referenced. Bradshaw got benched at least once and I believe more than that during that time frame. He was definitely a gamer but had very poor judgment to begin with. As for stats--there is no way you can spin 6 TD's and 24 INT's into a good thing in any era.

I'm not a big Bradshaw fan..... but I think you've got most of it right. I don't know that he was drafted #1 overall, and to be the "face" of the Steelers. I remember him talking about the guy that he played behind...... actually, I think he played behind two guys, as he was more of a project. As you said, a gamer with an arm, and a strong will to win.

But I remember he said the guy in front of him was way more talented, and point for point a better QB. But he had personal issues that kept him off the field. I love Terry, because he says that he wishes that guy had gotten his stuff together, and played the game of football instead of ruining his life the way he had.

Even though that would have meant that Terry would never had been given the chance to do what he did with his career.

 

[Wolf]

I actually like Terry on Fox pregame.. he is corky but helps the show out..

also .. wasn't he and the steelers in one of the Smokey and the bandit movies?
I recall something about Mean Joe Green flipping Sherrif Bufords car over.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

I think I've missed the argument so I might be misunderstanding the point here but...

Most teams are very reactive with their QB's. Most QB's don't get a chance to blossom later in their careers anymore (I think it was more common in the earlier days). But there are guys like Brad Johnson, Steve Young, Rich Gannon, Hasselbeck, and (I think) many others, that really didn't blossom until after 5 years... just not with the same team that drafted them.

Usually, if a team is consistently losing, they place the blame at the foot of the QB even if it doesn't really belong there. And then there are guys like McNair that really aren't that impressive statistically who get to play for years because they're on a winning team.

If this wasn't the point of the discussion, I apologize.

In my mind the difference is that most of these guys did not start and play heavily for five years. They spent a lot of time on the bench watching and learning before they were thrown in. I would say Steve Young is the closest exception, but he still spent significant bench time after his USFL/Tampa stiints. Tony romo serves as a closer model than does Carr.

 

[Osso]

Just throwing a bunch of names out and insulting Porky isn't much of an argument.

Actually it's his argument that no decent qb's are given 5 years on the same team to perform well. I just gave him 15 qb's with 24 more letters to go. All of them medicore until thier 5th year or more. Some of them never being more than average.
His argument is weak...if you think that's an insult. I apologize.

 

[TexansFanatic]

In my mind the difference is that most of these guys did not start and play heavily for five years. They spent a lot of time on the bench watching and learning before they were thrown in. I would say Steve Young is the closest exception, but he still spent significant bench time after his USFL/Tampa stiints. Tony romo serves as a closer model than does Carr.

Say what? Which quarterbacks are you talking about. Testaverde started right away and played on most snaps. Bradshaw was benched and his coach rotated him with Terry Hanratty, but he started right away...

 

[thunderkyss]

McNair and this Franchise have a lot wraped up in Carr to succeed from so many perspectives. If Carr doesn't come through, there is going to be a lot discussion how he just kept getting chances but didn't come through. McNair is so far into this thing with Carr that he will probably ride this thing out for the remainder of Carr's contract. Why not, lose a game like last week and people are satisfied.

I'm definitely getting a totally different read on this thing all together.

I think McNair asked all his candidates if they could win a Superbowl with Carr. I'm sure someone said, "Yes definitely" and another said, "absolutely not"

I think Kubiak said, "The kids got talent, but winning in this league isn't so much about Talent as it is heart. That's why you got that kid in the 4th round, that is doing things nobody expected him to do..... where other more talented prospects failed.

I can't tell you that I can turn David into the kind of player that will win the big one for you. But if you tell me you think that kid has the heart, and the will to take your franchise to a SuperBowl, I will do everyting in my power to prepare him for that.

But I need you to understand, if I say he can't do it, he can't do it."

I know most of that came out of a dream I had....... but that's what gets me through.

I know Carr will be afforded every opportunity to succeed.

But if he can't, we've got a plan B.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

Say what? Which quarterbacks are you talking about. Testaverde started right away and played on most snaps. Bradshaw was benched and his coach rotated him with Terry Hanratty, but he started right away...

Did you read the specific post i responded to?

 

[infantrycak]

I contend that the QB rating should have fumbles and/or fumbles lost equated into that stat.

If you do that you need to include rushing and rushing TD's. Right now it is set up as a measuring stick for passing--have to make it into an overall stat which frankly would be hard to balance.

 

[infantrycak]

I'm not a big Bradshaw fan..... but I think you've got most of it right. I don't know that he was drafted #1 overall, and to be the "face" of the Steelers.

Bradshaw was selected #1 in 1970--if he wasn't selected to be their face, he certainly wasn't selected to be their hair.

 

[TexansFanatic]

Did you read the specific post i responded to?

Nope, you caught me. I suffer with A.D.D. My apologies.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Say what? Which quarterbacks are you talking about. Testaverde started right away and played on most snaps. Bradshaw was benched and his coach rotated him with Terry Hanratty, but he started right away...

He was talking about the QB's I mentioned.

 

[dat_boy_yec]

My take on this is this. Carr was programmed to fail over the course of four yrs. How long does it take for someone to deprogram? I'm thinking the time varies from person to person. Kubiak said that David plays well at first, but later in the game revert's to his old habits. A comparison would be someone who goes partying and drinks, then while still partying tries to quit. He may not be successful the first few times, but then he'll start not drinking at the beginning of the parties but reverting to his old forms near the end and if he/she perseveres after much effort can enjoy partying without drinking at all. That's kind of what I see in Carr with the games being the party and his mistakes/habits being the drinking. There have been times this season where Carr has shown poise and presense in the pocket, but he hasn't gotten to the point where A) it's consistent B) or natural for him. I think this is what Kubiak was referring too. Carr is in the process of deprograming himself so he has to be conscious of what he's doing. The only way to have success with this is repetitions as it should come more naturally to him. Even though Carr plays while making a lot of mistakes everybody seems to forget that he threw for a little bit over 3500 yds. two season's ago. You can't blame Kubiak, logic would be that if Carr eliminates his bad habit's his production would go up exponentially. I see improvement's by Carr this season and I think he'll be playing much better as the season goes on, but he need's a little more time 4 yrs. of doing something is hard to overcome.

 

[Double Barrel]

Again, I like Carr but I completely agree with this! I'll say it over and over - it's the 'feel' of the game not the arm. Pro QB's can throw the football but the ones who can't 'feel' tha game are usually out of the league. Some learn it over time. Maybe Carr could learn it over time - maybe Sage has now learned it. If I HAD, ABSOLUTELY HAD to win ONE SINGLE GAME.....

who would I start? Honestly....I go Sage. I like DC but I'd start Sage because of the 'feel.'

I agree...if this season was about winning enough games for a playoff run...which I can understand the pov that we should be doing anyway, especially after four brutal years of losing.

But I guess that's why we don't get paid the big bucks to be a pro HC. I honestly think that Kubiak sees Carr as a project, and right or wrong, that's more than a one season proposition to develop. Kubiak's well trained eye and professional opinion carries more weight than all of us combined, so he must see the potential for a lot more upside than Sage would provide over the long run.

Sage looks good now, though. He appears to have some intangibles, in that he's got the pocket presence and quick decision making ability that produces positive results. I suppose someone could argue that he's never had a starting job, but then again, he's never had Kubiak for a coach, either. And Rosenfels is a Kubiak hire.

 

[thunderkyss]

My take on this is this. Carr was programmed to fail over the course of four yrs. How long does it take for someone to deprogram? I'm thinking the time varies from person to person. Kubiak said that David plays well at first, but later in the game revert's to his old habits. A comparison would be.............

A comparison would be Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Joey Harrington, and a bunch of other promising young talents.......

Look, sticking with David was the right thing to do. As far as decency & honorability goes.

But nobody gets a chance like this in the NFL anymore.

I hope like hell that what we are doing with Carr will stop this bad habit that NFl teams in the salary cap era have developed, and stop all this quitting on these young men that enter the draft.

How many QBs has Detroit, Oakland, SF, and Arizona ruined in the last 10 years?? it's ridiculous.

Hopefully, what we are doing, and what Dallas & SanDiego has done will slow this down a little.

 

[Texans_Chick]

There are too many posts in this thread that make me want to projectile vomit for me to identify them all with specificity, much less respond to them.

In sum, massive speculative rhapsodizing makes me queasy.

I just felt compelled to say that before moving on to the next thread.

Carry on.

 

[phan1]

Honestly, it's hard to compare him to any other high draft QB because I just haven't seen anyone like him. He doesn't remind me of a Bradshaw, a Testeverte, or a Leaf at all. He's just... David Carr.

And I can't believe we're still talking about Carr's character and heart. We can talk about if he's "good enough" all day long, but honestly, I don't see how we can question David's character after his last game. Seriously, he's been nothing but a class guy ever since he was drafted. Oh yeah, I guess you all want QBs who gets "fired up" and make dumb comments about coaches and players after every loss. I guess he should have thrown his lineman under the bus after every game like Manning did in the playoffs huh? It's all about if he's good enough. Wheather Carr really wants to win games and put in the effort to win games is unquestionable. Off the field, he's been everything you could ask for out of a franchise QB, and it's really disgusting how people can assume he doesn't really want to win games for this city.

I think what people have a problem with is that he's 100% player and 0% coach. That's pretty obvious. He's never going to get down on a player for a bad play like a coach is supposed to do, and he's never going to question the coach's gameplan eithe. He's the player, not the coach. Someone said it took him 3 years to complain about getting sacked for gawd's sake! He really has a "soldier's mentality" of sorts. "Tell me what to do and where to be and I'll do it with 100% effort. But coaching and game-planning is your job. I'm just here to do what you tell me to." He's a guy who obviously needs coaching, and while that's not necessarily a bad thing, it is a very bad thing if this guy has no coach. Personnally, it'd be nice to have a guy who who holds more people accountable (including coaches) and is more proactive about what he thinks is wrong and what he wants to do to fix it. But hey, that's why we brought in Kubiak right?

And I can't really fault him for being who he is. 3 kids is a lot to handle and he doesn't have time to be both a coach and a player. He's not a Peyton Manning who's going to go home and spend hours on hours studying game tape on top of a long, hard practice. Carr is going to go in, get his work done, and go home. Is that a bad thing? Maybe... But Carr is definitely going to go as far as Kubiak will take him, cause he's not going to get there on his own.

 

[TK_Gamer]

In Kubiak's comments he also said Carr does not audible, that is not part of our game, I believe he said, so we know more about why Carr does some of the things he does. I was impressed with the fact AJ finally helped out his QB by going after the catch instead of letting the ball come to him. All in all, last week was a winnable game against another team with more talent then we have. The Titan game was our gift to them.

Just because I am a I need to bring it up that we can still finish with a winning record, and I for one believe.

actually he said HE doesnt audible, not carr . he said he likes to have called in plays and not change them.

 

[painekiller]

I think what people have a problem with is that he's 100% player and 0% coach. That's pretty obvious. He's never going to get down on a player for a bad play like a coach is supposed to do, and he's never going to question the coach's gameplan eithe. He's the player, not the coach. Someone said it took him 3 years to complain about getting sacked for gawd's sake! He really has a "soldier's mentality" of sorts. "Tell me what to do and where to be and I'll do it with 100% effort.

If he is not calling a player out, what do you call his hissy fit when Lundy dropped the 3rd down ball on the opening drive? I call it showing a player up. but that is just me.